http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34039054
>possibly one in fifty people can't conjure a mental image
>there's probably a few among us
I wonder if this would be an insurmountable obstacle to drawing from imagination. It's just now starting to be researched so it's tough to really say, but has anyone around here experienced something similar? I guess if you've never experienced a mental image you wouldn't know.
sounds like sycra
This sounds nightmarish. I wonder what's the percentage of people who become accountants....
I was always afraid of learning to draw because of this. I can recall my loved ones pretty well, but anything else is very vague. That quiz puts me in the bottom 9%. When I draw from reference I rely extremely heavily on measuring and ratios to get things right. I have no ability to draw from imagination.
Damn this is terrible. Thank god I don't have it in fact I have cartoon characters popping in my mind that never existed before.
jokes on you fag i paid $160 to draw anything from imagination with glenn vilppu
artmentors.com/course/draw-anything-from-imagination-2-day-live-online-workshop/
I got this apparently.
>>2307058
arent people just lying about how clear it is? its impossible im bottom 1/4.
I'm pretty bad at remembering mental images from real life. I probably shouldn't be drawing. I'm decent at drawing from imagination though. Just don't ask me to any of my friends from memory
>>2307149
the quiz is tricky because nobody really has a frame of reference for how vivid their mental imagery is compared to others.
>>2307126
I also got put in the bottom 9% with a score of 20/40. It's impossible to place this against what other people can see though. Do people really close their eyes and see vivid images? Or is it black and if you focus you can make out some basic ideas? The questions about picturing friends I can definitely imagine seeing them, but how much of that is just me thinking about what they look like rather than a mental image. I sort of doubt that people can remember exact contours on all their friends face in sharp detail rather than it being a bit of a blur
The thing is, I can almost sort of see stuff but only small parts of it at a time (and never in color), to me this explains the phenomenon I've noticed that when I draw, I'm always drawing in a very linear way with no real conception of how the parts will relate to the whole (nothing I draw ever appears to have any weight, for example and poses I come up from imagination rarely make any sense).
I have definitely improved in drawing since I first began but this explains a lot of things. I "picture" this being an incredible hurdle if not a sign I should consider suicide.
>>2307058
Interesting.
I feel that right now this is based on unreliable information though, being only a person's own reports. And the test they have there has to do with memory and imaginative skills, not just visualizing. That guy distressed at the inability to imagine his mom after her death, for example, is not uncommon, one can easily forget a face they don't see regularly (can't really say about his visualization on the whole tho). Visualization is a practicable skill too, but it's something I think is very rarely deliberately practiced.
I've always felt vision and visualization were very directly linked, and that if you can see then you can visualize. It always made sense to me that what you saw and what you visualized was basically the same, just with different inputs, and with the visual signal of light to the eye typically being much stronger than visualization.
It makes me wonder if people with aphantasia can't dream visually, since that too is the mind's eye as far as I know. I practice lucid dreaming myself, and some techniques take you directly from being awake to a dream without a lapse in consciousness. If you do this you'll be able to see your visualization start out crappy and fragmented, and slowly get better and better until it fills your entire vision with vivid and consistent imagery, and at that point you're in the dream.
Whether or not aphantasia is real, I feel like a good amount could be attributed to crappy skills rather than a inherent disability.
just close your eyes and visualize.
>>2307058
I can't imagine not being able to visualize images in mind. The only reason I started drawing is because I would imagine something more vivid than the usual mental imagery, but had no way of translating them on paper in a satisfying way.
>can see vivid images with my eyes open mfw
Like double vision is so convenient just project it onto paper and trace it lmao
Do you guys think that practice can help this problem?
Like I can imagine an average human and rotate him like in a 3d program in my head. But if I try to vividly remember a unique looking head, it takes a little more brainpower.
When I'm drawing from imagination, I usually have to draw large shapes and scribbles to try and find the forms I'm looking for.
I don't think it's a life or death situation though, because we have such easy access to tons of reference that we don't have to rely in visualization.
>>2307383
>Do you guys think that practice can help this problem?
What any of us think is purely speculative because this is a relatively new area of study-at least the article suggests as much.
I'm >>2307173 and as much as I'd like to believe practice can surmount such a thing I don't know, it definitely feels like I'm drawing from a very myopic, selective and altogether stunted visual memory and am relying mostly on the non-visual information I've gleaned from books, videos and articles. This realization weighs heavy on me because I don't have much desire to be a photobasher or even an illustrator. I'm definitely going to devote more time to trying to use my imagination-I'm not willing to concede that all is lost.
>>2307196
post ur work fagget
>>2307058
That test really confuses me. When people imagine a sunrise at a beach for example, does the image just pop up all by itself? The brain makes up the image subconsciously and you just take it in?
I always thought I have somewhat alright visualization, but I have to consciously concentrate on bringing the subject I want to imagine into focus. Like, I can imagine a sunrise by basically building up the scene in my mind, the shapes of the clouds, the color of the sand, the sunrays etc, it's not just there for me to observe.
The test told me that I fall into the category of poor visual imagery vividness, but I feel like I was aware of having this issue somewhat? Like, I can't really envision anything too much? I can see something in my head, but not really? It makes it hard sometimes. That being said I try to just continue drawing from life to build my visual library. I have to draw it out to figure where things are. I can't really see it, but I just know it?
For example, when I try to visualize a sunset I see like colors, but nothing too definite? It seems weird that try and be an artist when you can't visualize much though, doesn't it?
>>2307173
>I come up from imagination rarely make any sense
I have this issue as well. I can't just come up with random poses like some people can. Even if I do I have to try and use my knowledge to work it out. The only way I can draw it no problem is if I've drawn it already a couple of times. Otherwise, I have to work out the mechanics of it?
I feel that working from life is no problem since I can see everything? Otherwise, I have to practice immensely.
>>2307181
Yeah. How hard is this? Are there people out there who can't actually do this?
![mental-rotation[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/3mwoU5m.jpg "mental-rotation[1].jpg")
>>2307451
I can think of the basic shape of a human, but it's basically 2D. I can't even rotate a human around in 3D like the post here >>2307383
You know those IQ tests where you have to figure out how some pattern or objects folds itself or rotates? I'm absolutely terrible at those because I have such trouble conjuring its rotation in my imagination.
>>2307451
>Yeah. How hard is this?
If you take two seconds to look at the myriad of disorders when it comes to things like perception it's not that hard to imagine someone not being able to.
Consider dyslexia. You can go "just read the letters and form words its not that fucking hard" but it's obviously not as simple as that when it comes to the person's cognition.
>>2307451
I used to be able to do this, but at some point I started seeing static in the dark, and when I have my eyes closed, and it really fucks with vizualization. When I went to the doctor he just told me everything was fine with me from a medical standpoint.
>tfw I'll probably never be able to appreciate looking at a clear night sky in all of its glory again
>>2307460
I found it good to imagine different parts of a human. Then attach all the parts together.
So if you find that a foot is pretty easy to rotate in space, then start from there...slowly adding the calves, then the thighs. Then move onto the upper arm, thr forearms, then hands...being sure that you can imagine them at each step.
Of course when I picture a full human, it is still a little fuzzy in areas which I do not understand...like the back of the thigh, or dome muscles in the back, etc etc.
That's why learning anatomy and perspective is so important early on, so that you can set up some sort of scene in your head that can be believable.
>>2307476
Visual snow. I also have most of the related symptoms like tinnitus, floaters, strong afterimages and poor night vision. Feels bad man.
>>2307157
>>2307162
I think you guys are right. For every part of something we can't remember the exact details of, our minds fill in the blanks. This is the same reason people say that they can THINK of a person's face but when it comes to drawing it they remember much less than they realize.
I felt like every image was vivid when I took the quiz, but I could be filling in all the blanks and have no idea.
>>2307450
>The only way I can draw it no problem is if I've drawn it already a couple of times. Otherwise, I have to work out the mechanics of it?
That's the same for everyone. No matter how good your visualization ability is, it doesn't work like a fucking projector where you can just trace the images in your mind.
This score suggests that your visual imagery is less vivid than average, but you score above the range of people lacking imagery altogether, the state termed aphantasia. Around 9% of people fall in the same range as you.
You scored 17 out of 40.
Well I'm fuck, no wonder when I try to draw from imagination it isnt very clear.
>answer "moderately clear" on every question save one because I have no fucking idea what the fucking parameters are or what the options even mean
>"reasonably clear" on one question
>bottom 25% of population
WHAT DOES MODERATELY EVEN MEAN
>>2307480
Also, learning how to sculpt, I found, is suuuper important too.
Especially sculpting from imagination, you can really learn a lot about your visual library that way.
>>2307058
The test is pretty bullshit though since most people overestimate how clearly they envision things. I got scored in the lower half, but I suspect I actually am able to picture things clearer than most people because I have developed the skill over time for painting. I can paint realistically without ref pretty easily too, though I suppose a lot of that doesn't require super skills of visualization, you just need to visualize one or two steps ahead at a time and can react to what is on the canvas already.
>>2307442
>does the image just pop up all by itself? The brain makes up the image subconsciously and you just take it in?
Pretty much. Never really had to think about it. It's a very fluid image though, I have to concentrate if I want to hold it still.
Like, if I'm imagining a person I know, my mind will wander and shift them around in different poses/activities etc based on their characteristics. I need to consciously commit to a pose and hold them still if I want to draw them from imagination, but it's all there.
What you're describing actually sounds like it'd be pretty good for learning construction. I always found it really frustrating as a kid to have all these easy images in my head and no clue how to build them onto paper.
>>2307173
>never in color
Really?! That's so weird to me.
I cultivated the ability to actualyl conjure up things clear as day as if I were actually looking at them, after I seriously started meditation and occult practices.
>>2307383
Yes. Read books, make an imaginary world that you work on rendering. You can get better of you do it as with most things.
It's just in the modern world a lot of people rely on screens instead of their imagination so it deteriorates
>Around 25% or one quarter of participants fall into this band, alongside you. It places you in the lower half of the population for imagery vividness, but your score is not unusually low.
>You scored 25 out of 40
I struggle to draw from imagination.
>>2308669
Just practice infinite labor. You can overcome your handicaps through infinite labor and efforts.
In this approach, painting is the most promising medium.
>>2308669
same score but I don't have any problems drawing from imagination. The test is bullshit. I though it was going to show pictures and have you actually test shit but it just asks questions you have no real ability to judge.
>>2308669
Are you me?
>>2307058
Yeh I don't really have mental images either. I have pretty good visuo-spatial thinking, so I can easily imagine shapes in space from different points of view. But when I read descriptions in books I just get bored, because they don't make me imagine things, they're just collections of traits. I try to make the mental effort recently, but it's just not my thing.
>>2307162
>Do people really close their eyes and see vivid images?
Only sometimes, when imagining shit on the go, not when recalling real shit I've seen. I can sometimes come up with really complex stuff, like HD animation of a photorealistic person turning into a horrid undead monster and lashing out at me (example from when falling asleep, goddamn). I had a lot more of that happen when I was a kid. I also had a metric ton of ideas, that faded with time.
I think I have two problems.
1. Most of the time I can't render the whole thing at a time, I get glimpses, that slip away, when I focus elsewhere on the body of a creature.
2. It seems the input of my eyes dominates my imagination. It's hard to maintain a clear canvas, when I'm looking at anything. Hell, even darkness doesn't help, since I get that static effect. I think this may be one of the main things holding people back from getting higher scores.
Since the brain is plastic it stands to reason this should be something we can improve. What we should do is gather a list of relevant terms by which we can search so we can look for books/audio/etc. online pertaining the subject and pool together useful results. I bet there's a version of Peter Han's training for imagining crap.
So what are the terms, both common and scientific for this ability besides "the mind's eye"?
>>2308680
this anon here I should of read through the thread first because of this post
>>2307460
In highschool one of my teachers talked about female/male bias how its harder for girls to do this test than guys (and there was another test that was easier for girls iirc). She put up these on a screen with a correlating one in a different rotation with an a b c sort of choice and blurt out when you have the answer, and I was able to answer them almost instantaneously. I'm curious if >>2308669 are able to do that test well because we got the same score, but I don't have problems with imagination works. I mean I have problems of course but not to the level you guys are describing.
>>2307490
The problem is, that kind of claim should be put to test. I can remember some buildings "clearly", you have my word that I can recognize them instantly if I see them, like my University.
Should you ask me to draw it, I would end with something that kinda looks like it, but has the wrong number of columns, the wrong number of doors, windows...
Especially true for the question about seeing people walking. It ain't easy.
That being said, I see things in my mind without light, like if the colors are "dead", they're not grey but they have no luminosity, it's hard to explain.
In my dreams there are lights. The Sun can even be blinding. I can only guess than my waking brain is inferior to my sleeping brain in that regard.
There are a couple of things the test didn't anticipate. Me personally, I need to get into a good groove before I can start envisioning things clearly, telling me to envision something without warmup or emotional reaction won't give me the best results.
I don't think I see things with as much clarity as other more fortunate people, the imagery in my minds eye looks more like VHS footage, its more 'low-res' if you will. The longer I dwell on it the clearer it becomes but this takes time.
Sometime since early teens I've been able to 'see' in terms of moving paintings/illustration, seeming to stem from a particularly vivid dream I had one night. I hope one day animation technology reaches the point I'm able to watch a film that looks like the inside of my minds eye. This I see much more vividly than photorealistic simulacrums of reality. I think its because its less detail for my brain to keep track of. Simple cartoons I see much more vividly. Sadly, it doesn't quite work like a projector when it comes to drawing but it helps and it sure looks pretty.
Once I've gotten into the groove of it I can see so vividly its like I cease to see whats actually around me, even though I'm still aware of it all.
>>2308756
https://www.fibonicci.com/spatial-reasoning/test/
You mean like those types of test?
>>2309036
no it was this >>2307460 with multiple choice. you had to figure out which one was the right one in a different rotation and which ones were wrong. the one you posted I have to think about. That test looks like it would be a much better indicator than the "how do you feel" one that was posted.
>>2309036
>https://www.fibonicci.com/spatial-reasoning/test/
why are the hard ones easier than the easy?
>>2307058
I find this really weird but kind of relevant
take for example, I have a HARD time thinking about relatives or friends details in their faces, a sort of vague image is there but I can barelly recall how they walk or how they dress.
HOWEVER, I can perfectly imagine a sort of fantastic scene from a videogame, the animation I want the monsters and explosions to have, the background details, ruined buildings in the background, etc.
basically I have a HARD time with real life memories but I can visualize very vividly fantasies about things that dont exist.
>>2309050
seems super random. Some of them come instantly and others are a complete headfuck. I'm curious if all of these come within seconds for anyone here.
>>2309056
I got 10 of 12 on the hard but I had to manually think/fold most of the image in order to get it. It took probably 20 seconds to a minute for each one.
>>2309054
To be fair, it seems more like you're having trouble with subtlety. Video game characters and animation is far more exaggerated than real life.
>>2309054
>I have a HARD time thinking about relatives or friends details in their faces
>HOWEVER, I can perfectly imagine a sort of fantastic scene from a videogame
Don't worry anon, that's just autism.
I think most people don't realize we don't actually see "images". You can't zoom in, measure carefully or color-match with anything you have in your head, otherwise nobody would practice art at all.
I'm no neuroscientist, but my own experience with memory and image makes me think of it as a vague pattern map I can manipulate.
What can I do with the "images" in my head? I can rotate it much like a 3D software, I can pose them freely, although achieving realisting poses takes some effort and might require more observation.
Basically they're just poorly parsed patterns. Enough to help our mind to conjure something we can interpret as an "image", yet ironically not working at all like, say, a jpg file, a printed photograph or a drawing itself.
I can't really understand the "photographic memory" thing, since my brain can't store actual images at all. It's just patterns that can be improved over time with further observation, building new synapses between neurons and shit.
>>2307058
those people need to be shot for being legit sub-humans
>>2307058
I scored 16 out of 40. When I try to imagine stuff I see vague characteristics but the more detailed I think about it the more hazy it gets. Also I dont see full colors but washed out ones.
It's strange.
now I'm worried
>>2307058
There are downsides to the other extreme. I'm an extremely visual person since I can picture complex and colorful scenes and imagine figures into the 'real world'. However, I'm extremely paranoid and, usually at night, my mind tries looking for things. The end result is white faces in shadows, objects looking like human figures, and hands in doorways. It fucks with me, no doubt.
sometimes it feels like I photo-realistic mental imagine thing going on with the exact colour & shiz but when I try to analyse what im looking at, everything falls into something highly conceptual and messy
Bottom 5%.
I can think of negative space, concepts and motion but there's no picture in my mind at all. At best a flash of motion with some vague details. When I draw/paint I work off of what I have laid out already rather than working off of a picture in my mind.
I think mental images are like using your third eye. Nobody actually "sees" anything in their minds eye or that would be a hallucination. It's like just having a very strong memory of something. I guess it would be impossible to explain to people that can't.
>>2307472
>the myriad of disorders when it comes to things like perception
Fuck.
>tfw found out last week I have dyspraxia
I've always struggled with the whole 'seeing in 3D' thing, I just can't rotate things in my mind and it's hard for me to not just draw everything in 3/4 view. Finding out that I'm genuinely pre-disposed to suck at depth perception and that the odds are stacked against me to understand 3D structure is making me feel so hopeless.
>>2307058
I'm too sleepy for this shit.
i can visualise things for an instant but they twist and warp into other things if i try to focus even slightly on them. never been able to clearly visualise faces. this is really upsetting, i wonder if meditation or something would help...
>>2310647
I literally see things in my minds eye, just like when I dream. It's a very floaty image for sure, but I definately see it.
>>2312319
Turns out practice does help anon.
I was getting pretty frustraded right now about the fact that the only thing that was hard to me to do was visualizing people walking, (i could easily see people runing, crawling, jumping but not walking)
After ten minutes of watching people walk everything is fine again with my imagination.
