Like I needed any more proof that this industry and digital art in general are absolutely fucked. It's just too easy.
'Making it' equals a 25k salary. All of us who pursue this seriously signed up for a life of bitterness, stress and poverty.
Tough luck. All I feel is anger towards the people that encouraged me and talked bullshit about how great their lifes are and how it all paid off... it was nothing but vanity. The vain need to feel successful infront of someone else, rather than tell them the truth about the horrible path they are heading down.
Fucking selfish, weak pieces of shit, honestly.
>>2272393
meh. i still wanna git gud.
>>2272393
Being an artist is more about being a salesman and knowing marketing and 40% art. When you fully understand this let me know so I can tell you politely to stop spreading your beliefs that you can't make money. Only losers who can't make a sale have this mindset.
>>2272408
You're right in that if you want to make money as an artist you need to be a salesman. But i'm not a salesman nor do i enjoy being a salesman. If i would i wouldn't do art.
in all fairness i have to add: most of the people celebrating, spreading and commenting on this via various channels (twitter, fb mainly) are TOTAL SHIT artists. lol. as in they still have 3-5 years of serious studying ahead of them before they could make work i'd consider competitive.
>>2272408
the thing is i am actually making... (well, not good) but i'm making money. more than i think i should be making. however i don't want to max out at 25k. i want to have somewhat of a nice standard of living. be able to travel a little here and there. without necessarily playing the online cockworship e-celebrity game that appears to be an absolute essentiality in this slave industry.
>>2272415
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD CUNT
>>2272393
>out of context
Why you do this? He talks about shit $100 job
$100 for illustration, son. $100 lmao. People draw pony non complex paintings for $150+
>>2272415
Well then enjoy making less than 25k/year.
>mfw i was getting my portfolio ready for these kind of companies
I started when I was a teenager and I knew what i was getting myself in for.
Success in this field isn't getting paid.
That being said, there should be an illustrator's union or something, employers are fucking us in the ass and it works because we're desperate.
>>2272417
>without necessarily playing the online cockworship e-celebrity game that appears to be an absolute essentiality in this slave industry
Yes, that's exactly what you need to be doing. It is what it is.
>>2272417
> i want to have somewhat of a nice standard of living
Then stop painting and use your knowledge of your field to start an agency or business of some kind.
>>2272393
those companies wont start paying more lol they will just pick up people from third world countries.
do you even know how a company works? lmao
profits!
>mfw i live in a third world country.
feels good man. you guys stop accepting these gigs so i can make it
why dont just draw for a hobby? Why so many people in this board are obssesed over career in art. You don't have to work as an artist to make art. That is dumb.
Find a job u love and keep art as a hobby it is the best way to be happy and not stress over meaningless shit. As a professional artist u won't be even drawing what u want to draw in 90% of situations. Ask yourself if u really want to be mindless drafting drone.
Gl.
>>2272419
That's true. I do this myself. But I didn't study old masters for years to then go draw fucking ponies because the money is better. Ya know?
Why not go fucking do anything else that pays more and I don't enjoy equally, at that point.
>>2272439
>u
God go back to whatever part of the web you crawled out from and stay there.
>>2272439
>hobby
2 hours a day of practice means you'll be good in 20 years time.
>>2272440
Stop panic. Illustrators have great money.
crying or blaming the world for the value you're making out there is retarded, too many skilled retards out there, yes. that's the real scenario actually, instead of bitting they could just do something with value on their own as trully freelances, as fucking entrepeneurs not as fucking wannabes
if you choice as career path is to be gigolo don't fucknig complain that you don't have constant income & comodity of a security guard who does not have to care anything to carry alive the company he's working for, but liberal profesions DO
>>2272447
Stop panic 2.0
To make it as a professional in anything apart from a wage slave you need to be a business person. You need to market yourself as a amazing person to work with, A person with a skillset that can be used on several different projects and you need to have a work ethic that impresses people enough to want to give you a chance(This is where you find local groups to post on Facebook and such).
Find a local sketchcrawl, attend it religiously, Paint and draw at a skill level that is useful for someone doing a project and you will get involved in projects before you know it.
The great thing about people that are better than you is that they are often busy with other projects, There are only 7 days in the week!
Now go break the knees of life, kick it while it's down and take what the fuck belongs to you!
>>2272447
>1-3 weeks
>$400-800
That's not good money even if you're constantly getting work.
>>2272447
Oh my god. And that guy is actually good. That makes sense. Anon I want to express my sincerest gratitude for sharing that, you have no idea how much that restored my faith, hope and confidence.
If things go well in the long run I will NEVER EVER shut up about how beneficial it was for me to have my ego absolutely demolished and shat on by this forum. Terence Fletcher style.
Because it would make SO much sense if the VAST majority of struggling/starving/complaining artists are actually those who suck and simply have no skills. We all know that's the majority anyway, right? I really hope this turns out to be true.
>>2272454
>>2272456
He won't spend 21 days doing the painting, He will use that to balance his schedual with other work and deadlines.
The next time you start panicing like this, take a deep breath and consider that these artists are not stupid. If you could not live off it then why would you assume they are going to only have that to live off?
They can finish a illustration in 2-3 days but the 3 week timeframe is for flexibillity and correspondance.
Can find Stop Panic 3.0 pic. Where is Feng talk about manga $50 sketch and salaries
>>2272454
It's commisions. Commisions for normal people. Not companies.
>>2272454
I think it is. It would be good enough for me atleast. 1-3 weeks doesn't mean he actually works on that one image for 1-3 weeks. That's just sort of the general timeline he gives clients. Realistically he takes 2-3 7-hour days per image I'd say.
The guys that are good are generally also quite efficient.
>>2272465
Cool seeing my biz-info photoshoppery being reposted.
>hobbyist
>>2272473
>if you dont like the commission. Too bad.
I like this guy
Why would you work freelance in a field with so many people
Find a job making art or not making art. Freelance art pays less and the people are harder to work with. It could kill any love for making art you have.
>>2272487
>field with so many people
>Find a job making art or not making art
Looks like you never work.
And the fun part is, the Asians and the Russians just started breaking into the industry. So expect wages and job opportunities to go down like a brick in water. I honestly don't know why people still go for this industry, I'm glad I got out. Been a teacher for the past year and it's glorious. Much more free time to make art that I want to make and I get paid very well for 70% of my previous work routine.
Find a different field kids, don't work yourself into an ulcer. It's shit out there.
>>2272446
Not true. And as long as it's fun and you enjoy what you are doing, who cares? That's the whole point of a hobby
>>2272465
The whole point of UT4 is that anyone can contribute what they want and the game is looking like it will be be better off for it.
Pretty sure Epic has already hired a few artists in particular.
>>2272497
>Asians and the Russians just started breaking into the industry.
Wut? They work in big companies since eternity. Try harder
>>2272497
I´m latin and I work for 200 hundred a pic, it´s a lot money for me and you shouldn´t really get mad about people like us, there is space for everyone and doesn´t the US work with a free market system?
are you a socialist and want regulations on the market or a capitalist such as normal people on the US who don´t whine about their horrible pay rates?
I even lean to socialism but this kind of mindset hurts everyone, people live differently and have different needs, an artist can come from anywhere
>>2272451
um, how to read nipponese?
>>2272518
So because your country is utter shite, you need to make our great country as shite as yours? Besides, latin quality is still shit, rather hire chinks and wodka abusers. They're good and cheap.
>>2272456
/ic/ reminds me of /lit/ in many ways. And as someone who made their living writing for a while, coming to /lit/ was like voluntarily opening your mouth for someone to squat over.
This is a forum. 90% of people here are more interested in looking good or putting others down than taking the steps to making a living. And most of them aren't that good anyway. They come here and put it off instead of just doing it. Don't be one of those. If you want to live as an artist, fucking do it.
>>2272393
Haha, what a looser.
>>2272424
>Industry gets unionized
>Price to hire artists skyrockets
>You have to now pay a fee in order to work to pay the wealthy union heads
>It is now impossible for you to find a job because studios will only hire the top 5% tried and tested artists
>These artists will also have a harder time getting work because all of a sudden everything is being outsourced to non-unionized chinamen
>Somehow this will save the industry
Who is the author of OP's pic? Every week someone post a topic with this subject and it's always the same... A lot of people who aren't in the industry saying you can't making a living of it. lol
>>2272563
NOAH
O
A
H
>>2272424
Agreed. Fucking voice actors get to take the industry hostage and they're not even important to game production. We must unite at some point.
>>2272568
Noah Bradley? /thread
There you have it. His work might be on "pro" standards but what he paints is fairly uninteresting and generic. Can't imagine he has a lot of people clamoring to hire him. He does no figurative work so right there you're cutting out major portions of what you could make.
Plus he's Noah the attention whore, he'd say anything to get more publicity. I wouldn't believe much of anything he says. This also coming from someone who is taking money from plebs to get trained to enter into this "shit" business he is degrading, he can't feel that strongly about it. Just a way to tamp down competition.
Of course, assuming this is Noah Bradley you're speaking of.
>>2272590
agreed
I honestly think noah browses /ic/ because I emailed him numerous times about this place
>>2272563
it rustles me when people use the term 'being in the industry'. it's not that black and white. unless you are hired to work inhouse of course.
i and probably others from here remember how eduardo pena, ben mauro and long ouyang got baited to travel to singapore by feng. they paid their own flights and travel, were promised housing and higher salaries higher than their current ones (according to my sources ben and long had freelance contracts with weta, both making 45k from that, though the contract was most likely not exclusive)...
anyway the fact that these people who even back then (this was 2013) i considered top notch pros, jumped at the chance and didn't ask for contracts or anything signed, should show you that there's quite a bit of angst even among the ranks of pros.
though on the other hand a 45k freelance contract with weta sounds pretty neat... if that number is even true. i have a feeling it's not.
>>2272524
>If you want to live as an artist, fucking do it.
On it. And have been on it for some time now. Even though my life is still shit and I think about suicide every day there is definitely measurable progress (as in, measureable in $$$)
I don't even get anxious about quoting chumps 300$ because I don't feel like opportunities are that scarce anymore. I've even had my first return client and my first client who isn't paying his invoice recently (career milestone unlocked!)
>>2272592
Of course he does. Any artists who have decent sized online presences and rely on that shit google their own names and I'm sure find this place if they're talked about.
Plus I've heard people who work professional mention this place in passing on youtube vids before. They may not post but I'm sure they come here once in awhile.
>>2272574
voice acting can't be easily outsourced to china, they have to be native english speakers
>>2272607
Voice acting will be done by robot voices 8 years from now. Not even kidding.
>>2272611
they said we would all have hover cars in the year 2000, we don't even get to wear silver jump suits
>>2272611
No it won't and you want to know why? Robots can't do radio shows. The voice actors do more than voice the shows. You really think a robot will ever match the voice talent of a human?
>>2272611
>robots replace all jobs meme
Guess we know you're that guy who always posts on here,
Out of context.
https://medium.com/@noahbradley/minimum-wage-artists-4f8e00024a4?mc_cid=8239af79f0&mc_eid=16ec9cd89b
>>2272473
me too, thy look pretty cool
>>2272476
>if you dont like the commission. Too bad.
>I like this guy
Yeah, until you realize that he's using Paypal, so his client can just request a refund from them and then he's shit out of luck.
>>2272550
>It is now impossible for you to find a job because studios will only hire the top 5% tried and tested artists
>These artists will also have a harder time getting work because all of a sudden everything is being outsourced to non-unionized chinamen
Isn't that already happening, sans unions?
>Price to hire artists skyrockets
>You have to now pay a fee in order to work to pay the wealthy union heads
What are you basing this on?
>>2272473
Damn im jealous....
Not because of his skill but jealous of his badass attitute.
While im not a bad artist, im still a beta faggot that some clients use as a tool for their drawings.
I dont know how to stop being so.
Once i even got depressive and stopped drawing for a while after i had really bad experience with a shitty client. I got paid good but the experience was really shitty. I felt like a slut who was sucking dirty cocks and getting slapped.
fuck that...
>if you dont like the comission, well that's too bad because I did my best.
Damn he is amazing. how people even get so much of attitude?
I guess its because he's popular and his fans dancing around him worshiping every of his pieces so he grew an Ego?
>>2272594
>top notch pros, jumped at the chance and didn't ask for contracts or anything signed
probably didn't think they needed to, given that it was Feng. It's a small world at the top; there's really not that many AAA-tier concept artists out there. I'd assume they probably already knew each other, or had at least met before. Probably even been co-workers before.
>though on the other hand a 45k freelance contract with weta sounds pretty neat... if that number is even true. i have a feeling it's not.
45k for someone at Ben Mauro or Long Ouyang's level is low. I made more than that at my first concept art job, and I wasn't anywhere close to as good as they are. It's freelancing where it's difficult to make a living, in my experience. If you can get a studio job or a contract with a studio like Weta, you can expect to make decent money. But the competition for those jobs is extreme.
>>2272657
>Isn't that already happening, sans unions?
To a degree, but you can now kiss entry level jobs good-bye. Indie studios won't be able to afford your services because you're in a union and can't take on a non-unionized position. This means you can't freelance either because it would undercut wages for union members.
Anonymous 11/03/15(Tue)20:53:43 No.2272657▶
>>2272550 (You)
>It is now impossible for you to find a job because studios will only hire the top 5% tried and tested artists
>These artists will also have a harder time getting work because all of a sudden everything is being outsourced to non-unionized chinamen
Isn't that already happening, sans unions?
>Price to hire artists skyrockets
>You have to now pay a fee in order to work to pay the wealthy union heads
>What are you basing this on?
How labor unions work. They go overboard with retarded benefits and fees that make it cost arm and a leg to hire some one, reducing the demand for labor and excluding people from the job market. The extra money goes directly into the union leaders' pockets.
>>2272527
ARE
YOU
FUCKING
KIDDING
ME?!
thats it...im going to kill myself. finally gonna do it
>>2272602
>my first client who isn't paying his invoice recently (career milestone unlocked!)
Ugh. Literally the worst. I had a client contract me for two weeks of work, and he paid me $500 for the first week, but after I did the second week for him, he just stopped returning my emails. That was 5 months ago.
Stone Lion Studios. Do not work for them.
The price paid for Abstraktes Bild amounted to a staggering 5,000-fold increase on the price he had originally sold it for, he said.
He told the weekly newspaper that he understood as much about the art market as he did “about Chinese or physics”, and said contrary to a common perception he hardly benefited at all from such sales.
“We artists get next to nothing from such an auction. Except for a small morsel, all the profit goes to the seller,” he said.
>>2272594
I remember that story and they got baited probably because it was FENG ZHU! Who wouldn't?
And in several podcasts I heard they pay more than 45k for an in house concept artist.
Also, I used the term "being in the industry" because until we are in fact in the industry it's just guess, even more when people jump to conclusions at any artist rant but don't consider ALL of the artists that say otherwise because "fake it 'till you make it" mentality that /ic/ think most artists have.
OP is quoting the article entirely out of context. Noah is talking about working for clients like Fantasy Flight Games that only pay $100 for an illustration, and how it's impossible to make a living if you work for that cheap.
https://medium.com/@noahbradley/minimum-wage-artists-4f8e00024a4
it's obvious, OP is Noah Bradley, shoving his phimosis dick into our face again.
>the bitter failures who ruined /ic/ try to justify their lack of progress by removing all context and blaming the industry
congratulations on becoming your dad
fantasy flight is bullshit. this has been known for a long time. if you're super thirsty for cash, you're probably better off setting up a porn pseudonym and only going legit once you can command rates you can live off of. wes craven did it.
there's also no shame in supplementing your income until you can afford to go fulltime.
>>2272669
it's basic supply and demand. the number of artists who can paint neon green sparkledog dicks for furfag x is pretty limited, so they pay a specialized rate for the commission
its amazing how much effort /ic/ will put in just to convince themselves that drawing isn't worth it.
I bet half of you guys don't even like to do it anymore so you're constantly looking for ways to prove to yourself that by giving up on it for a living, you're making the right decision.
maybe if you make art one should ignore money altogether.
>>2272707
I really think that is what happens because I used to lie to myself and try to find excuses as why I wasn't progressing and that the time spent wasn't worth it, etc.
>>2272446
I managed to do it in 5 tbqf.
And no, I'm not gonna post my work. I don't care enough to prove my point. Believe me if you want. It's all the same.
>>2272439
this is a fair point desu.
i think a lot of the bitterness on /ic/ is caused by people who were never really cut out to have a serious art career
>>2272672
500 for a week though. That's pretty neat man. Assuming you didn't work a week 9 hours per day every day. You didn't... did you?
But yeah all of those bullshit studios that only exist as facebook site with a couple of likes are a BIG red flag.
>>2272675
Well then he is an idiot. Honestly. If you go into fine arts not signing a contract putting you on the safe side should you hit the jackpot... you are a fucking moron.
He deserves nothing but pennies anyway because any moron could have done this work.
Fuck him and his fine art.
>>2272696
No man. I promise you. I'm the op, I'm not Noah Bradley. Though I would be the first to make that claim if I didn't know better LOL.
>>2272735
>i think a lot of the bitterness on /ic/ is caused by people who were never really cut out to have a serious art career
Perhaps. But statistically, you're almost certainly one of them. The huge majority of people who try to make it as an artist crash and burn. The bitterness comes when you realize that you were wrong when you thought you were different.
Guys I just wanted to chime in to tell you a little secret:
Advertising is a HUGE business. The budgets in advertising are very handsome, and the average agency will value you 10 times more than the average game studio.
If you have a certain skill level and the portfolio/web presence to show for it get in touch with agencies and tell them you are looking for opportunities to do previs work for ad films or campaigns and what not. write a slightly longer mail so they can see you communicate clearly and know some terminologies.
preferably don't have only spaceships and dragons in your portfolio.
There's a lot of money to be made drawing incredibly dull and mundane things like kids serving cereal and shit like that... you need to do it well, reliably, and reply to emails very quickly. you don't even need to be an amazing painter.
I think it's crucial to get your head out of the narrow box that is entertainment.
>>2272675
Flawed argument. Had he never sold the painting in the first place he would be a nobody and his paintings would be worth nothing, so he would get nothing.
You can't expect the buyer of the painting to someday down the road be forced to fork over a portion of the profits when they resell the artwork. They bought it fare and square form the guy, sounds like sour grapes to me.
Now by selling his work and becoming known he has created a collectors market for his paintings. He can now charge 5000 fold the price for his next new painting if he wants, but he had to work to get to that level. No body starts out at the top, which a lot of people on IC don't seem to get.
You don't start out commanding top rates or getting all the sweet jobs. You have to take the low paying shit work or just work on your own stuff until you're good enough to get the better work. Even then networking is still a thing, your work might be good but it can still take time to get your name out there and get the better jobs. People who choose to work for the 100 dollar rates and never improve the quality of their work deserve to get those rates.
>>2272753
Anyone can make it, those who do aren't "different", they're just not lazy like the people who fail. People who make it just didn't give up and stuck with it, put in the hours of study and got better, period.
>>2272768
>Anyone can make it, those who do aren't "different", they're just not lazy like the people who fail. People who make it just didn't give up and stuck with it, put in the hours of study and got better, period.
This is 100% true. Nobody is different. There is no being different. /ic/ should know this, with their talent-doesn't-exist credo and all.
1. it's out of context.
2. If money was your "payoff" for wanting to become a good artist then I suggest you quit.
>>2272768
>>2272778
> Nobody is different. There is no being different.
>Anyone can make it, those who do aren't "different", they're just not lazy like the people who fail.
lol. wow. literal high-schoolers with high-school worldviews.
the real world is more complicated than that. in the real world, just "putting in the hours" doesn't always cut it. you also have to pay your rent, which means you have to get a real job, sometimes 2. now you're spending most of your time flipping burgers while your competition gains an insurmountable lead on you. while your life is stalled, they're attending the best art schools, while you're answering phones for Comcast, they're making industry contacts, competing with peers and and learning from the best artists in the industry. life doesn't afford the same opportunities to everyone. and yes, in the real world, people are different, and talent does exist. you're retarded if you think otherwise. some people are smarter than others and are just going to be better at everything.
that's life. not everyone who fails to make it in one of the most competitive jobs in the world was "just lazy." that's something you'd have to be a naive kid to believe. I bet you also think you're going to be the next Jaime Jones. kek.
>>2272862
>I bet you also think you're going to be the next Jaime Jones.
*raises hand*
>>2272862
>I'm 25 now I know how the world works listen to me
Ok, champ.
>>2272862
It's a trained skill, if you don't make it it's because you didn't train hard enough for what ever reason you can come up with. There are all sort of ways to make money on art. Games and entertainment illo/design isnt the only way there are plenty of options for people to take.
>>2272768
>. He can now charge 5000 fold the price for his next new painting if he wants
I don't think this is true. I suspect an aspect of the business is that his dealer sells it at a price that will allow investors to make a profit at some point.
If you went to whoever deals in him you'd probably join a waiting list, pay your 00,000s then have to wait 5-10 years to flog it on at x 1000 or something.
>>2272905
you'd need to ask this woman, she probably puts a huge amount of effort making sure Gherhard is in all the papers and shown by the right people.
and he is a pinnacle of fine art, but it's taken his life time to get there. It seems to be one route to being successful, and that's that you live long enough to be seen as an important historical art fact.
>>2272925
>>2272492
In a field where finding a job of any kind is especially hard freelancing is a terrible idea.
>>2272439
>find a job you love
For a lot of people that job is art
>>2272766
how to get dem dere ad jobs? what to put in portfolio too
>>2272931
Finding jobs freelancing is only hard if you're not at the right level for those jobs. Plenty of freelance artists make a living for 20+ years doing it. There are tons of jobs always coming up.
It's like saying, I'm not a very good carpenter so no one hires me to build anything....no one builds anything anymore!
Unless someone has been doing freelance for years and then comes on here with examples of their work and shows how they now get less work because there are no freelance jobs I'll always call bs. Until now it's always some 16 year old kid just parroting what someone told them.
>>2272669
well, if you think killing yourself is better than becoming a furry porn artist...
>>2272642
Wow, fuck FFG.
>>2272393
The problem with most professional artists is that they're so caught up with MUH MORALS and MUH ARTISTIC INTEGRITY that they fucking bottleneck themsevles. I know a couple of guys who flat out refuse work if they don't agree with the "vision" or "message" or similarly asinine bullshit. I had another friend who turned down a massively well paid porn gig because he couldn't bring himself to draw a couple dicks and pussies.
At the end of the day you're going to have to fucking sellout in some capacity at some stage to make it as an artist. You might have to (GOD FORBID) make some tutorials, draw some fanart, do some loli comissions or whatever. Accept it. Your bank account and stomach don't give two shits about your integrity as an artist, get over it.
learn how to market yourself, or live below the poverty lines
people like their artists to be starving mad people, it's romantic
>>2273021
Seriously. I got offered to do Star Wars illustrations for them for less than a 100USD per illustration (with three fucking feedback phases, the last one coming from LucasArts half a year later). I kindly told them to gtfo.
>>2272652
what do you mean?
noob paypal user here
>$100 fucking dollars
>probably before tax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWXYoD7wfOs
Kinda funny how /ic/ turns to porn as a last resort or a good way to make it when most people don't even think about doing anything like that as an option in the art world.
>>2273541
That's pretty sad for a company that big.
Couldn't you work for some games company or movie or what ever and use your skills there doing some art design or something? Do you have to be a freelancer? I'm just asking not implying.
>>2272707
Or hobbyfags who never had it in them to go pro even if they wanted to.
>>2272707
This is exactly it.
Protip you guys should look at the unity store if you are finding it hard to get more than minimum wage.
Very good pixel art gets you a lot of money in the unity store and a product you made months ago could still give you money each month.
If you can code or do 3d handpainting stuff it is insanely easy to rack up the money if you have multiple pieces.
You can also look at niche of pateron porn if you are really desperate. Most other artist can't code so can't make visual novels, but they are insanely easy to make compared to a game in unity.
I just like to draw mang
>>2272862
well i am sorry for your failure :(((((
you found your excuses, you are free to an hero now, i will let you go.
if only you would have put that effort into finding the solution rather than the excuse.
WHO CARES ABOUT YOU, ANYWAY.
one might require talent after all, but that talent is the hunger to get out of the clump you are in, and not settling for whatever you have now.
>>2272393
>25k a year is living in poverty
I've been living off of 7k a year the past couple years. Granted, my expenses have increased since I bought an RV (looking at 10k a year in expenses now), but my life is pretty sweet.
>>2272393
well, 25k a year sounds pretty fucking good to me. its like 3 times the amount i need to live comfortably. though im an europoor.
>>2272393
people have always made art based off emotion,creativity,imagination and feeling, making it for money was never a part of it, it was more like a perk. making art as a career choice is a shot in the dark which im pretty sure it's evident , i don't see why anyone would bet there own future just to have a small chance that'll only last a couple (not even) years. you should just keep it as hobby that way you'll still enjoy it no matter what
My rejections from FFG just got more depressing after reading this thread
More people are good at art than are good at carpentry. Trying to make a living on something that millions do out of passion is always gonna be hard. Especially since it's not competitive enough to require the most skilled worker.
Lots of people love basketball, but it's really hard to find somone who can win against LeBron so those few players get paid a lot. Unfortunately, while theres no "good enough" in a sport where you win or lose, there's defintely "good enough" in art. Its pretty easy to just pick a daily deviation and get an artist for your game.
Sucks. But what else can you do if you love art?
>>2273937
post some art, but judging by there pay rate and other comments it was probably doing you a favor.
>>2272393
What's a good 'art related' career that doesn't earn peanuts? Graphic design? Product design? Architecture?
>>2273960
I don't think your art is at a professional level yet, but its better than some of the horrible shit I've from some artists work for ffg.
Maybe they need more examples of people and less monsters?
Personally I'm looking to work in studios even if it means I have to work as a 3d artist at first in order to transition to concept art. From the looks of it freelancing is becoming a low paid contest to the bottom.
>>2273940
I think your over complicating it, I think a huge reason something like carpentry is well paid is because it can't be outsourced, and its largely hard labour which most people don't want to do.
>>2273972
Thanks for the honesty. Yea a studio job doesn't sound so bad, but it kinda sucks because when I started getting serious a few years back I wanted to be a freelancer.
>>2272393
few people succeed making money with art, but a lot of people are also not good enough at their craft, lack some personal style, or are just not hard working enough
most of freelance artists earn below the poverty line, but how many of them are actually good?
>>2272518
don't worry, they are just bitter because they never made one buck, and like to complain even before reaching a decent level in their craft
>>2273940
>>2273978
I don't know what the fuck either of you two morons are talking about but my original carpentry analogy is simply to point out people who are bad at something are getting no work because they are bad, not because there is no work to get.
>>2273960
Not to rag on you too much but this is a good example of people who say there is no work, but then you see their work and can see why they're not getting any. Echoing what >>2273972 said your art isn't ready for jobs, even lower paying ones. (not on a regular basis, maybe once and awhile someone might hire you)
Your portfolio is very samey. It's monster humanoids with horns, very close up center frame. There's little to no developed background behind them or story/scene going on. The poses for the characters are either full frontal or 3/4 view with little to no dynamic posing and the perspective is usually the same. Often their costumes are underdeveloped, a lot of the figures are shirtless. You're also going in heavy on rendering getting the textures in there but the underlying drawing needs work. One piece where the rending looks good is in the Lizard turd man, it's softer and looks more finished. The stuff towards the top looks harder and sloppier like you've regressed backwards.
>>2274006
Few people make it and those who do may make shit but I'm with you. What exactly is the break down? How hard do they work to improve? What skill level did they plateau at? If all you can get is low to mid range fantasy game gigs after 15 years....yeah you're going to struggle. The "pro" top tier artists we all think of used to be on those levels too they just never stopped trying to improve. Also if the style you work in isn't conducive to the types of work that pay a lot you have to keep that in mind.
>>2273960
To be honest besides your latest upload, the color variations in your art aren't that great. Maybe work on your colors for a while and try again. Whatever you do, don't give up. You have the potential to get where you want to be.
>>2274015
>Not to rag on you too much but this is a good example of people who say there is no work
I never said that there isn't any work. I get enough rejection letters to keep my ego in place.
Best crit I've had in a really long time though, thanks. I agree that my older work has a lot better qualities in it. I've been trying to move towards the applibot style where rendering is everything.
>>2274019
I feel it's a bit too oversaturated and gaudy, but it's mario fanart. Maybe I'll explore the heavily saturated stuff a bit more.
>>2274045
I'm not telling you to make everything so saturated that eyeballs burn out. I'm suggesting more color variations. Your background colors are too close to your subject's colors.
>>2273981
Your welcome, and I'm saying this as someone who would also consider themselves not a professional. I've done a couple 100-150$ commissions, its hard work and you feel like shit making very little money for doing them.
I think anyone considering getting into freelance illustration should reconsider. I know bad artists who work as 2d clean up artists or toonboom/3d animators and make decent money certainly more than 10-15 k a year.
If your going the illustration route your likely resigning yourself to a poverty after training hard for long hours, and even if you can get to a decent wage you could be making more in house working in other artistic fields.
People also need to make their own decisions I'm just an anon, but the numbers don't lie.
>>2273920
>>2273903
Agreed, 25k a year really isn't so bad. God save you if you're American and you get sick, but otherwise, you could live comfortably on 25k. But Noah is quoting that figure with the assumption that you're completing one $100 illustration job EVERY DAY, which you'd have to work your ass off to do, you could never take any days off, and of course no company is going to give you anywhere close to that much work.
So the 25k figure is unreasonable. If you're lucky and really good, you might be able to pull in 3-7 illustration jobs a month, and if those only pay $100 each, you're fucked
>>2273960
Holy shit, someone actually posted their work. Respect brah.
>>2274045
>I never said that there isn't any work.
I know you didn't. Well not really since this is all anon, but for better or worse you are a good personification for the other IC people on here talking about how hard it is to get work. Your level of work is pretty representative to what IC is doing.
If your work is low level there will be a low amount of work for you and it's all low paying.
>>2274057
>but the numbers don't lie.
Well, no one is getting the full picture or numbers. Yes low paying jobs are out there but so are high paying ones. Not many people on IC are actually long term working artists with a decade + under their belt. Everyone on here talks in anecdotes and hearsay. I wouldn't be so sure about everyone doing art is poor, for sure the ones who complain about being poor doing one particular type of job are. That's not definitive evidence of anything.
>>2273960
>http://roccobandito.tumblr.com/
Can I offer a quick crit? Your work has a lot of super-saturated colors that are holding you back - those come from using the "color" layer mode to glaze color into a grisaille sketch. It's a good idea to keep the colors in the color layer mode very mild, and to use something like the soft light mode to slowly build up saturation before you paint the final opaque pass.
Having really saturated colors in the shadows will make your work look burnt and muddy. And especially in illustration, it's good to save your saturated colors for the focal point and keep everything else somewhat neutral.
I wouldn't bother doing a job for less than $1k or so. Less than that and fuck you, I'll draw something for myself that I can maintain ownership of.
>>2274064
For sure there are illustrators making decent money and doing well, noah bradely being one of them.
I think however its fair to say that even within the art field there are easier ways to make a living than doing freelance illustration.
But I encourage everyone to do there own research.
>>2274058
Its also 25k for a extremely skilled job as a freelancer, working 16 hours a day.
I can make 20k a year where I live working 40 hours a week at a fast food joint. Working everyday and making only 5 k above that for skilled labor and long hours is laughable.
Tragically I think most of the money as an artist is in teaching. The reason I say tragically is because for the plurality of us the only hope of earning a decent middle-class or higher living is teaching and basically consigning 9/10s of our students down the same path of poverty and having to have this revelation themselves. This is only going to get worse as illustration jobs start getting outsourced even more often.
W-...we're not all gonna make it, brah...
>>2274109
guys all the info you need is out there a couple of clicks and google searches away, there's honestly no need for me to spoonfeed.
>>2274103
What I'm saying is 25k for a "skilled" freelancer might not be the reality. Most people on here are cherry picking information and only looking at half the story. Noah Bradley, since you mentioned him, while technically proficient at painting a picture does fairly boring backgrounds. He only paints exteriors, no character or figural work for the most part and works heavily for a single company in a painting style suited for fantasy work. Do you understand how limited that is?
People are trying to make the freelancer job out to be, "I only do work in this one small section of one industry with hyper focused limited art and should make a good wage." That's not what freelancing is and never has been. If you're going to specialize in fantasy the only way to make a good living is to become one of those TOP artists, a Rigney, a Rapoza, a Tyler Jacobsen, a Karla Ortiz, a Chase Stone, a Mullins. Not a Noah Bradley. The reason he has the school is because he needs the money to support the ultra narrow field of art he chose to work in.
This is what I mean about making statements about how "the art industry" is. Right off the bat you're only looking at games/fantasy art. How can you be someone who could possible know what you're talking about if you're not even in the know about what's out there? I'm no pro and I know these places exist. There are dozens of more fields out there to work in. Advertising, Movie stuff which has a bunch of different fields in it's own right, Games concept, Television, publishing (books), comics, selling at conventions/galleries and tons of other shit.
To come on here and definitively say, freelancing is a 25k a year job is just dumb. People make that much because they don't work hard enough on their skill set to branch out, or they get lazy and settle for what they have. Every top tier pro was once a noah bradley....but they didn't stay there.
>>2274124
I actually agree with you,fantasy illustration is an extremely narrow field that a lot of people pigeon hole themselves too.
>>2272393
Start your own business.
>>2274099
Easy to say that when you're still living with your parents.
yeah I was living in a bubble for some years.Dropped out and became a neet to pursue this bs.
I'm 20 now,haven't been drawing that much nowadays.not sure if I lost passion but I god damn realized this shit might not be worth it at all. Sort of glad I woke the fuck up lmao.
>>2274167
Or too lazy to get a regular job or part time and do art on the side until your skill level is high enough.
A lot of people who support themselves with art at a younger age <25 are doing so because they have already been working hard for years prior to that. By the time they get out of college their work is good enough. Not sure a lot of anons on here think about that. They didn't one day think about doing art and 2 years later have a successful freelance business, like most people on IC seem to think. You may need to think about getting a day job to support yourself and not take those $100 jobs. It could be 5+ years before you can support yourself off your art, maybe more.
>>2274180
You're 20, how could you even possible know it's not worth it? lol. You're basing this on just what IC anons say? You're only 2 years out of high school, you probably haven't even spent enough time doing art to really even get into it.
There is money to be made in art. But to do it you're not going to be sitting at home painting orcs and knights for $300 jobs all the time. There's more to it, different fields, different levels of pay for different levels of artists, networking, cons, selling your art in different ways, kickstarters, work outside of the fantasy games genre.
There is probably more ways to make money at it than ever before, people are just getting lazier about researching them.
>>2274180
>I'm 20 now
>>2273569
It takes more skill to be an in-house artist than freelance, dumbass. That's true for most industries. Contractors are mostly people who the company finds not worth hiring full time.
>>2274210
Either that or they are so highly specialized that they are hired for the minimum necessary period of time and for a very particular skillset.
It makes sense to go freelance once you are at the very top of your game and have carved out a bit of a spotlight for something you do particularly well.
>>2274229
Game studios also do a lot of laying off, hire people on for a project which may last a few years and then let teams go.
People always talk about "in house" jobs but that area of employment can be rocky and unsteady as well. It's also in your best interest to move to areas with lots of studios, places on the west coast of the US for example are high cost of living areas, so you may not be making as much as you think.
>It makes sense to go freelance once you are at the very top of your game and have carved out a bit of a spotlight for something you do particularly well.
Plenty of non-top tier freelancers out there making enough to live off of. (in the US) It's like any job you don't start out making lots of money, from working freelance to being an office worker. People on this board seem to think you go work at FF, Paizo or a handful of other fantasy games companies and they feed you enough work to live off of. That's not really what freelance is if you want to live off it.
>>2274180
>20
dont fuck it up. people should only seriously pursue art if you're 25 and above and everything else fails. This is the last of the last chance you got.
take me for example, 25, fucked up my life, dropping out from colleges and getting fired from jobs and drawing is my last resort to prove i am any worth.
you're 20, youre still young, pursue something else
>>2272430
Then get rekt, no one cares. Facts are facts.
>>2272451
Seems he is an illustrator. He recently received many inquires from overseas, but those didn't attract him, because their offer prices were too low compared to a price range he usually received from his Japanese customers. He says Japanese illustration market doesn't goes well nowadays, but it still pay well compared to the oversea market.
>>2274240
Finding a new job every few years is easier than having to get new clients constantly. studio jobs certainly aren't stable, but are certainly more stable than freelance.
Especially if you have multiple skills like 3d modeling/texturing/concept art you could stay in a studio for a very long time.
>>2274243
what of a 24 anon? im turning 24 this month. what should i do?
>>2274285
25 is the last straw
still tho if you feel like killing yourself after the fails you got, pursue drawing and shitpost your art in drawthreads doing reqs to git gud
just ignore the shitposters and keep pushing your shit until theyre impressed. make your enemies your shitposting buddies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97OVakhWar8
>>2274288
>starting at 25
>not starting when you were at least 13-16
>>2274899
>living in a /ic/ meme fueled fantasy world where ever artists whos a pro now started when they were <15.
>Being this ignorant about life.
>>2274288
There is no last straw. There are tons of people, who switched careers well into their 30s and 40s and there are artists, who started in their 30s and are now living off of their art.
>>2274905
But the majority did start <15. I know it's unfortunate for you but if you work hard you'll get there sooner or later.
>>2274906
Yup. Off the top of my head Brad Rigney comes to mind who did just that.
>>2274899
>>2274288
Worrying about age is just another excuse to not try. Anyone can work a day job and practice art in their off hours, if you want it bad enough you'll get the work done to improve.
If you can't that doesn't mean it's not possible that just means it's not possible for you because you aren't hungry enough or you're too lazy.
>>2274913
>thinking anyone on here will believe you have enough life experience to know this.
What are you? All of 18? Does momy still drive you to the mall to play with your friends? The majority of artists out there don't even post online about themselves. Soooo...where are you getting this from?
If that were true then how come people like Sam Carr and Miles were such a big thing on a massive community like CA for studying at such a young age? If everyone is doing it than it shouldn't have been a big deal.
>All dem 15 y/o out there doing 10 hours of loomis and life studies erre day.
>>2274920
It's sad you don't want to face reality. I don't want to break down more of your defense shields before you panic and cry so I'll stop replying.
>>2274935
>gets called out, tried to talk himself up, does the ol' "ill stop replying" backdown.
You got proven wrong the moment you started talking in absolutes about what can and can't be done. There are enough real world examples out there for anyone to see you're full of shit if they want to look.
>It's sad...
The only sad thing here is that you convinced yourself it's impossible rather than just doing it. Well, guess it's back to a neet life of xbox for you.
Top kek anon, top kek. *tips hat*
>>2274945
>>2274950
Kick ass gif. +1 for you Sir.
You don't believe in yourself so how do you expect someone else to?
>>2272393
There is more to art than painting space dragons and sword wielding gun shooters. Sure if you want to limit your work to that then yeah you are fucked in the butthole for the most part. If you want to make decent money off of art then you have to expand beyond gritty environment concepts.
I gotta say I'm glad I'm only in it as a hobby. Maybe one day I'll look at the possibility of making it a job and then I am not gonna limit myself to raptor riding legion soldiers. I have no problems doing mundane stuff if it means money in my pocket.
>>2274962
I hated doing mundane stuff for money,
Worked my ass off for 4 years self teaching and now I work with it. Drawing space mariners even.
You can do it!
>>2274962
>There is more to art than painting space dragons and sword wielding gun shooters
>limit myself to raptor riding legion soldiers
Why must you hurt me, anon?
>>2272707
I guess this is true but still it aint easy to make it as an artist, but I am convinced that good people make a good living, look at catbib for example, he too learned a lot from here and I dont know his rates but I bet he could go fulltime illustrator with ease.
The problem is I dont know what else to do. I dont like to do anything. Hell, I dont even want to leave my house.
>>2274994
Are you me? Life is hard for recluse asocials. who knew?
>>2274965
Point is it's not suicide next just because the demand for ex con whale hunters in post WW2 Japan is not big enough for the sea of artists who are into that stuff.
>>2274966
Follow your dreams man. If you wanna paint post-apocalyptic gene modified sheep riders then do it. Just don't cry doomsday if it doesn't pay the bills.
>>2272393
ololol this guy must suck dick. I made 70k at the last studio I worked at.
~concept artist. Every 6 months I would get a 15% raise and promoted (company has weird artist levels)
>>2275075
guy is Noah Bradley.
Moral of the story is not to specialize too much.
>>2272663
you... just have to do it anon. Your attitude is defined by your actions.
>>2275197
>Moral of the story is not to specialize too much.
In what, being only halfway decent? Yeah, not a bad lesson.
>>2272393
i-i just wanna draw and live a simply life. i dont want to revolutionize the artworld or anything i dont mind painting "generic/boring things".
where i live i would just need 1000 €/month, is it really too much to ask for? i got a couple more of years to improve before my parents kick me out and im still a begginer though...
>>2274896
>>2274899
>>2274906
>>2274915
woah there faggots. Take art as a hobby only if you're 25 and below. Dont risk your young life thinking you can make it by studying and getting gud at art. The art world is not easy and lots of excellent artists commit suicide due to financial difficulties etc.
your young life is better spent studying non art stuff like STEM , economics, architecture etc.
Art is something that you get into if its your last and ONLY chance to make something useful out of yourself.
>>2275259
Where did you hear that shit from, Seanwes?
>>2275261
Also stop telling people to take it as a hobby. People should know full well that they signed up to something with no reset button if they decide to take it seriously.
>>2275259
post your work and tell us about yourself, lets see what's your advice worth of
>>2275197
>Moral of the story is not to specialize too much.
moral of the story is to not for for Fantasy Flight Games or anyone else who only pays $100 per commission.
That is, if you actually read the story.
Dumbfucks.
>>2272393
reading this thread actually made me want to apply for FFG more than ever
if there is any indication that im ready is gonna be that.
>inb4 i get rejected
>>2275354
The only dumb fuck here is you. The whole point of this thread and his story is he specialized in something to the point where he only has a handful of companies that would use the work he makes. Among others, FFG who pays next to nothing.
How retarded are you if you don't understand that? There aren't infinite fantasy game companies out there who pay top dollar. (a lot of them pay next to nothing)
>>2275359
It could be worth more to not take the jobs and just spend the time improving until you can get six or more times that for a single job. $100 is great but if the amount of time you need to spend doing it takes you away from improving you don't want to get stuck doing work at that level.
>>2275370
>The only dumb fuck here is you.
Whew boy, you are trying really hard. Maybe you actually should go read his post.
https://medium.com/@noahbradley/minimum-wage-artists-4f8e00024a4
Oh shit, now you realize you are retarded. Hope you were only pretending.
There is a simple solution. This whole community needs to get their egocentrical heads out of their narcissistic asses, form some kind of union and demand better pay. Go viral about it, make sure the media knows, try to get a celebrity or two on board and we're golden. If voice actors can take the industry hostage, imagine what artists could do.
If you just continue to shove 100USD FFG shit sandwiches up your asses with your own tears as lubricant you'll get fucking nowhere.
>>2272393
>the plot thickens
https://www.freelancersunion.org/
>>2275753
>my side into account
>my side being a multi-million dollar enterprise that pays the actual people that make their products possible $100 an illustration (and me like $40 an hour)
lmao, art directors are the biggest fucking phonies and shills, they're the last kind of people who should be counseled about this sort of thing, most of them don't know dick about art themselves and are just middle-management parasites.
The suits, and art directors are included among them, don't respect us despite what they might say outwardly. They think we're retards, that we're expendable and they expose how they really feel about us with every "unpaid opportunity" and starvation wage they offer prospective employees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWXYoD7wfOs
>>2275753
I thought about asking that blog directly about what Noah said, was hoping it would show up anytime soon. The answer from the blog was pretty standard and obvious...
>>2275777
It's kinda funny that every AD talks about how little time they have in almost every post. Funny too how they paint themselves as the artists best friends when that's clearly not the case unless the AD was an artist itself. After all the AD is there to protect the interests of the company, not the artist.
>>2273949
Architecture is severely overrated. Getting a job is hell from what I've heard from my archi m8s. Fine arts is obv garbage unless maybe with a traditional focus. No idea about product/industrial design. Sounds techy and hear about it here and there but no clue on the community.
Best bet is probably graphic design if just for the transferability of the skills into business settings and the slightly better rep. GD's have the image of circa 2012 hipsters while concept artists look like the weird guy who draw the same uglymonster/titsgirl/strongman because its "cool." Some countries even have regulatory bodies and sometimes even government backing. Thing is with GD's most of them have no idea how to fucking draw and so try to circumvent that with photos/muh style/"minimalism" so if you can design AND draw you'll definitely have differentiating point against other GD's.
>>2275898
>Wanting to be scum
>>2275898
start your own company :^)
>>2275898
Give up your dreams of making it as an artist and decide to shit on those who do make it :^)
>>2275898
Stealth kill every art director in your workplace until they nominate you as the next art director. :^)
>>2275252
People who cry doomsday are mostly Americans expecting to make at least 3k$/month starting, just saying.
>>2275940
This.
People seem to have no concept of working their way up to make more money, the same goes for freelancing. Working your way up also means maybe doing more than just "gettin gud". Being able to paint and draw well might not be enough if you only work in one small corner of the market with only a handful of low paying companies.
I don't think that sentiment is just Americans though.
>>2275898
You apply for it like any other job. If the company likes your resume they hire you. Not brain surgery.
But you're not going to start out as an AD with no experience in the industry you're looking to work for. A lot of companies might only promote internally as well. You'd have to go get jobs working in whatever industry uses AD's, gain experience and work your way up and apply for the jobs as opening happen, like anything.
Any way you slice it if you want to make a good salary you have to work for it, which means years of working hard.
>>2275974
>paper shufflers
>working hard
Months ago there was a user on /ic/ that came in begging to be spoonfed about esoteric art concepts because he'd been hired as an art director with no prior experience and no ability to create art himself and something tells me he's doing just fine today. All you need is maybe some management experience and a business degree (which you can get at your local community college for like 1/10th of what you can a bachelor's degree in art for). The artists literally do all the work and the art director just sits there nodding and or shaking his head; he's there to decide if he personally likes the results or not while he trolls deviantart for the artists' potential replacements.
>>2276108
>...and something tells me he's doing just fine today...
So because you heard one story of one guy getting hired (keeping in mind the whole story was probably made up) you think large companies, that pay 50k - 80k, hire inexperienced people with no clue what they're doing for these types of jobs?
Cool story bro.
>>2276131
It was a pretty innocuous thread, the guy had no reason to lie and indeed whether an art director "needs to draw" or actually know what the hell he's doing is a controversial subject to those in the field.
http://scotthull.com/do-you-miss-your-pencil/
>It makes absolutely no difference whether you can draw or not.
>For an AD or CD, not terribly important if they have good verbal communication.
>Not entirely necessary, but if you can’t draw, you should make up the deficit in writing or yarn-spinning.
>I feel that the cost of the personnel outweighs the billable task of having them sit at a drawing table. Creative directors need to be just that…creative and directing in a directed direction.
(The picture included in the post and the following text is featured on a art director blog that 4chan thinks is spam so I've omitted the url)
>Can Corey draw? I say yes. There’s quite a lot of detail in these pictures. Look at the pile of wood in the first frame. The guy with the goatee in the second. There’s even a little perspective and depth of field going on here. His characters look like Muppets, but there’s a lot that’s communicated in these four frames. It’s his visual short hand.
>I knew a creative director who was incredulous at one of his art director’s inability to draw. And you know what? She couldn’t. Or at least didn’t try. She would have taken these four panels and made them wobbly stick figures on a 2-dimensional plane. No pertinent detail. Just stick figures that were placeholders for action.
