Bad WWII Generals.
> in before Rommel shitposts.
Rommel
>>993169
You might want to inb4 Patton as well, he gets similar treatment, and this is coming from someone who legitimately does believe Rommel was a bad general.
And if you allow air guys, pic related
>I can drive the Japanese out of China with 500 bombers, no need for land attacks!
Paulus
>>993169
Bernard ''lets wait until we have 3 to 1 advantage'' Montgomery
>>993217
>be montgomery
>take control of the British forces in North Africa
>launch a massive offensive the following month
>with 2 to 1 advantage against entrenched enemy
>>993222
le tactical genius
literally everyone could have won that battle with those odds
>>993258
Actually the rule of thumbs is you need 3:1 odds against an evenly matched enemy.
>>993258
Not him, but Montgomery outmaneuvered Rommel at El Alamein as well as "outweighing" him. He pulled Rommel's game of getting the ATGs right where the armored break was going to be right back at him, a trick that say Auchinleck couldn't do in similar circumstances.
>>993258
>make a retarded fucking post
>someone points out the retardedness
>make a red herring post and hope no one notices how wrong the post was
>>993189
Are you kidding? Under his leadership the Tigers were one of the most effective units of the War. His grand strategy may have been dicks, but so was everyone's in China.
>>993288
put experienced volunteer pilots in superior planes against foes who are primarily fighting in repurposed carrier planes, and you don't need to attribute successes to superior leadership.
>>993326
>superior planes
Of which they were heavily outnumbered most if all of the time, and had the barest of ability to maintain.
More over rated than outright bad. His greatest victory was at Pearl Harbor, which was a big tactical victory but a strategic disaster. His other victories over Force Z, and the Battle of the Java Sea aren't that impressive. The Battle of the Coral sea was another strategic loss, and Midway was an utter disaster. And Midway occurred a mere six months after Pearl Harbor. He can even take some blame for his own death as the plane he was shot down in was notoriously vulnerable to attack as a result of his specifications for range over all other considerations. Although to be a fair he stood little chance no matter what he was flying.
>>993326
>primarily fighting in repurposed carrier planes
Name one. The Flying Tigers faced twin engine land based bombers and Ki-27/43 Army fighters.
>>993469
Pearl Harbor was Genda's creation, not Yamamoto's.
>>993535
If you mean the detailed planning yes, the idea was Yamamoto's though and he threatened to resign to get it approved. At the time Genda was only 36 years old. But that just further proves my point that Yamamoto kinda sucked.
>>993785
Yamamoto's idea was terrible.
>>993193
This this this this
>>995093
>>993193
I don't get the MacArthur hate here. Sure, he wasn't some brilliant visionary, but every time somone is pressed on why Doug was a bad general, it seems to fall into either
> I don't like his politics, Bonus army, Korea, etc.
Which isn't exactly part of his generalship per se
> He deviated from WPO-3
while simultaneously ignoring all of the reasons he did so, many of which were valid, like him having close to 10 times as many troops as the plan called for (even if the overwhelming majority of them were locals and not US troops), or the current naval projections being much worse for the prospect of defeating the IJN and getting lines of communication re-opened.
>>993211
Paulus was pretty good general stuck in a shitty situation. Imagine having Hitler personally riding your ass to take a city. He only got assblasted because people thought the fucking ITalians and Romanians could protect his flanks, then at the very end Hitler promoted him to Generalfeldmarschall for the soul purpose of luring Paulus into committing suicide.
Paulus didn't play that game and spent the rest of the war willingly working for the Soviets.
>>993217
Bernard "Give me my Bomber" Montgomery
God, he was such an autist.
>>995070
Looks like he put way too much stock in Alfred T. Mahan.
>>995302
The problem with the plan isn't targeting battleships, which happened anyway and turned out to be sufficient to buy Japan the 6 months it wanted. It's the torpedo-bombers-fly-500-miles-on-suicide-trip-without-fighter-escort part that's the real stupidity.
>>995114
>getting warning of japanese attack
>wait overnight before doing any preparations
>>995355
If you give me a couple of months, I could compile every time a general in WW2 waited overnight to act on some intelligence they got.
Would every single one of them be a bad general?
>>995321
The problem was attacking America at all. The United States had no plans to defend the Dutch East Indies. Killing a couple thousand Americans ensured there would be no negotiated settlement under terms favorable to the Japanese and turned all the American isolationists into Hawks.
>>995615
>The United States had no plans to defend the Dutch East Indies.
Except you are totally wrong and repeating meme history. US had a defense pact with Britain and the Netherlands against Japan. That's how the US coaxed those two to sanction Japan.
>>995589
>Would every single one of them be a bad general?
No, because intel comes in many shapes and sizes.
That said, when you are told 'ENEMY SURPRISE ATTACK IMMINENT', and you decide to sleep on it and let them get off their surprise attack off anyways, then yes, that is bad generalship.
Marshall was the overall architect of the US high command and is therefore based as fuck. MacArthur was solid in WW2 but dogshit in Korea.
>>995668
muh inchon
>>995671
More like the god damned disaster that was Chosin.
>>995615
>no plans to defend the dutch east indies
Well that's just completely untrue.
>>995321
>there's no problem with making a largely outdated class of ship the target of your air raid, instead of striking the more strategically valuable aircraft carriers, oil reserves, Pacific command HQ, etcetera
No, planning to go after battleships and battleships only is a retarded plan regardless.
>>995697
>No, planning to go after battleships and battleships only is a retarded plan regardless.
Their goal was to get 6 months. They ended up going after battleships historically and got 6 months to run free. It's not a retarded plan if it gets you exactly what you wanted.
>>995637
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dog_memo
The main aim of Pearl Harbor was to buy time, which they didn't need. Singapore and the Dutch East Indies were captured in three months, and not attacking Pearl Harbor wouldn't have changed that. So instead of renegotiating with America from a position of strength in March of '42, all they did was assure their destruction.
Don't get me wrong I think Japan was fucked either way, but since we know how things turned out even with Pearl Harbor being a major tactical success I'm suggesting an alternative.
>>995114
MacArthur's shitty decisions led to the largest surrender of US forces in history.
His shitty decisions led to the longest retreat of US forces in history.
Can't top that.
>>993217
ITT brilliant generals
>>993169
All of the French high command during early WW2, especially weygand
>>995641
And stating it like that is a gross exaggeration of what MacArthur actually got. His communique from Marshall stated
>Japanese future action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If hostilities cannot, repeat cannot be avoided, the United States desires that Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not, be construed as restricting you to a course of action that might jeopardize your defense.Should hostilities occur you will carry out the tasks assigned in Rainbow Five so far as they pertain to Japan"
And that was a week before the war, not the night before.
And if you're referring to the FEAF report, it never reached MacArthur, Bereton got to Sutherland at about 5 in the morning and and MacArthur was brought up to speed and gave an authorization for a night attack at around 10 in the morning.
>>995763
There was no amount of good decisionmaking that would have made the Philippines defensible, especailly with the relative weakness of the Pacific fleet. You can argue, with some difficulty, that MacArthur could have made better decisions. I've never once seen an argument of any degree of good decisionmaking that would have let them hold off until 1944 when relief could realistically have reached them.
>>995964
Having a better early warning system and about 500 bombers and 500 fighters would've made it possible to hold the Philippines
>>996586
Until they run out of fuel, ammo, spare parts, etc. And unless you have a fucking enormous stockpile somewhere (which would be detectable, and almost certainly struck at), you are going to run out of supplies for an air group that enormous long, long before help can get to you.
>>997525
If the Philippines has a huge air group and subs, the IJN can't blockade it, nor can they take Singapore. Help didn't get to the Philippines historically because Japan controlled the area. If the Philippines doesn't fall, then Japan does not control it.
>>997552
>If the Philippines has a huge air group and subs, the IJN can't blockade it,
Of course they can. For starters, subs are useless for preventing a blockade, because they're too under-armed and under-armored against real warships. And as for planes, you only can sortie out so far. It means the blockade will be looser, and centered around the Carolinas and Marianas, instead of close up by the Phillippines itself, but they will run them out of supplies, and fairly quickly too.
And that's assuming your air force and navy will be able to coordinate. They probably won't, which was one of the reasons carriers were so important in practice if not in theory.
>>997582
>subs are useless for preventing a blockade, because they're too under-armed and under-armored against real warships
You are not supposed to surface and engage in a gun battle.
> It means the blockade will be looser, and centered around the Carolinas and Marianas, instead of close up by the Phillippines itself, but they will run them out of supplies, and fairly quickly too.
Are you high? The IJN will run out of supplies before the Philippines does in this scenario.
> They probably won't, which was one of the reasons carriers were so important in practice if not in theory.
Carriers were important because they brought aircraft where they couldn't go otherwise. Coordination with "air force," a branch that did not exist at the time, had nothing to do with it.
>>997589
>You are not supposed to surface and engage in a gun battle.
Well then what ARE you supposed to do against warships that are faster than your subs, better armed in your subs, better protected than your subs, and have escorts who can screen them? You won't even be able to engage reliably, let alone win.
>Are you high? The IJN will run out of supplies before the Philippines does in this scenario.
No, because they have lines of communication to their bases of support, whereas the Phillipines don't.
>Carriers were important because they brought aircraft where they couldn't go otherwise.
> Coordination with "air force," a branch that did not exist at the time, had nothing to do with it.
I direct you to look at the Mediterranean campaign, where "unsinkable aircraft carriers" like Malta and Sicily actually did surprisingly little to halt the flow of supplies. I would direct you to look at the actual Pacific islands campaigns themselves, where U.S. advances were always from one island to the next in what could theoretically be covered by aircraft from the last island, which still needed carriers to project force.
It is way, way easier to protect a mass of ships with planes that travel right along side them then trying to coordinate a mass of sorties from bases that can be over 1,000 km away to constantly monitor them.
>>993169
The entire Italian military leadership in WW2.
How could you completely fuck up on a level that makes MacArthur look competent is beyond me. And Rommel had to "work" with these dumbdogs.
And while we're at it, let's call Chiang Kai-shek a piece of shit general too.
>fuck ww2 the real enemy are the gommies
>let's hoard all of the lend-lease i get to kill gommies instead of le IJA
>fuck you stilwell the gommies are the real threat
Fuck Chiang, man.
>>995774
>Market Garden
>>997628
>You won't even be able to engage reliably, let alone win.
Yeah good point, it's not like 50% of Jap warships were killed by US subs or anything.
>No, because they have lines of communication to their bases of support, whereas the Phillipines don't.
Supplies to the Philippines were already on its way before the Pearl Harbor attack. US has a much longer LoC, but it also has more supplies to begin with and far better logistics.
>I direct you to look at the Mediterranean campaign, where "unsinkable aircraft carriers" like Malta and Sicily actually did surprisingly little to halt the flow of supplies.
And this is what you want to hold up as supporting your argument that the Philippines can't be supplied?
>where U.S. advances were always from one island to the next in what could theoretically be covered by aircraft from the last island
Sure buddy, maybe if you are using the B-29 as the barometer.
>>993189
That statement is crazy, yes. Even I would agree that Chennault was a bit off his rocker.
However, that doesn't completely devalue his contributions or his leadership. I mean, if that's the case, then Stilwell would also be a terrible general for losing Burma to the Japanese.
I mean', even the both of them aren't as useless as Louis "I am so dumb Canada hates me to this day" Mountbatten.
>>995763
Lord knows MacArthur tried at Chosin.
>>99773
Mountbatten wasn't useless. He was a great morale booster for the RA.
>>997660
>the gommies are the real threat
Except they were...
>>997719
>Yeah good point, it's not like 50% of Jap warships were killed by US subs or anything.
There were 4 sunk carriers by submarine, out of 12, and 1 battleship sunk by submarine, out of 11. That's nowhere near 50%. Not to mention that no matter how good you are at ambush stalking your prey, that's not going to be much consolation to all those merchant ships they don't have the presence to defend, what with not being able to stand up and go toe to toe.
>Supplies to the Philippines were already on its way before the Pearl Harbor attack. US has a much longer LoC, but it also has more supplies to begin with and far better logistics.
Not to the Phillipines it doesn't, since you have to cross some 2,000 km of territory where the only islands around are Japanese held, and their fleet is (for the moment) superior to yours.
>And this is what you want to hold up as supporting your argument that the Philippines can't be supplied?
Given that air interdiction on the water had enormous trouble stopping slow, unarmed ships, yes, they woudl have even more trouble stopping fast, armed ships from killing your slow, unarmed ships.
>Sure buddy, maybe if you are using the B-29 as the barometer.
Why do you post when you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about? This was quite literally what island hopping was all about, gradually extending the air cover closer and closer to Japan. It wasn't just the B-29, lots of U.S. pacific planes had very long ranges (because they were designed with this in mind) like the Catalina and the Corsair.
>>993217
Plus Caen. And ruining lives of people who were questioning his plans (and turned out to be right).
All the Allied Generals before the battle of the bulge.
>Hurr durr durr, I want to be the first one reaching Berlin we aren't allowed to reach anyway! I am just gonna go my own thing and push forward out of the supply reach, fuck that bullshit with working together to destroy the German forces!
>>993211
But it was Hitler that forced him to stand his ground like a fucking retard.
>>997866
Don't forget the biggest Allied fuckup of the war - Market Garden
>>997825
>There were 4 sunk carriers by submarine, out of 12, and 1 battleship sunk by submarine, out of 11. That's nowhere near 50%.
US subs killed 28% of Japanese war ships. It's not 50%, sure, but the IJN isn't going to sit around and blockade while a third of its strength is underwater.
>Not to the Phillipines it doesn't, since you have to cross some 2,000 km of territory where the only islands around are Japanese held, and their fleet is (for the moment) superior to yours.
How fucking retarded are you? US shipping was routed through Australia. They didn't go directly through the Marinaras and the Marshalls. Why the fuck would you even think that?
>Given that air interdiction on the water had enormous trouble stopping slow, unarmed ships, yes, they woudl have even more trouble stopping fast, armed ships from killing your slow, unarmed ships.
Go take a look at how many Japanese ships were killed by aircraft and get back to me.
>Why do you post when you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about? This was quite literally what island hopping was all about, gradually extending the air cover closer and closer to Japan.
Holy shit, do you literally have downs? Tarawa is 2000+ miles from Pearl Harbor and 1000+ miles from the Solomons. That's already one island that's not under land-based air cover, and it's the first fucking island in the campaign. Doesn't really lend much confidence to your claim that
>where U.S. advances were always from one island to the next in what could theoretically be covered by aircraft from the last island,
Pic related. Take a good look and tell me if US advances were always under landbased air cover.
Besides airdromes on shitty little atolls would not allow you to mass air power.
Carriers were used because it was the only way to get aircraft to places, either at all or in the numbers necessary. They were not used in order to circumvent lack of coordination between the navy and the air force, which did not exist.
>>997908
oops, pic related.
>>997660
Chiang did nothing wrong
>japs invade your country
>have to fight them off with untrained peasant hordes with 19th century weapons
>try to settle your differences with the commies so you can deal with the japanese threat more efficiently
>commies agree but do jack shit to help the war effort
>meanwhile they gather their forces and wait until your troops are exhausted and thinned out from the japanese attacks
>eventually japs are defeated and your troops are exhausted from the long war
>communists raise and start a civil war which you cannot hope to win
>retreat to Taiwan
>meanwhile communists kill millions of people, more than the japs ever did, in their shit tier policies
>>997908
>US subs killed 28% of Japanese war ships. It's not 50%, sure, but the IJN isn't going to sit around and blockade while a third of its strength is underwater.
[citation needed] And don't forget, that in a lot of those sinkings, it was in the context of a larger battle, with lots of SCS and planes whizzing around and offering distraction for things like destroyer escorts, which won't be around if you're trying to blockade break with them.
>How fucking retarded are you? US shipping was routed through Australia
Ok, then through the Japanese occupied NEI. What exactly have you saved by this nonsense?
>hey didn't go directly through the Marinaras and the Marshalls. Why the fuck would you even think that?
Because that's the way they went when they re-took the Philippines. What exactly do you think the Marianas campaign was all about?
>Go take a look at how many Japanese ships were killed by aircraft and get back to me.
Go look up how many of them were killed by strategic bombers, and get back to me. Not to mention that a cut off group of strat bombers deep within the enemy perimeter where they can guard their own forces with their own LBA is a way different situation than the historic sinking of most IJN craft, which was in pitched battles where the Americans were on the offensive with enormous support and advancing from their own LOC. Where they could actually mass their own fighters to protect the bombers, which wouldn't exist in your absolutely retarded "plan".
>>997910
>>997908
>>997908
>>997910
>Pic related. Take a good look and tell me if US advances were always under landbased air cover.
In every single one of them except Tarawa, the answer was yes you imbecile.
>Besides airdromes on shitty little atolls would not allow you to mass air power.
Yes they did. It's not like carriers held that many aircraft, and land based planes were considerably bigger and more powerful.
>They were not used in order to circumvent lack of coordination between the navy and the air force, which did not exist.
And yet you've completely ignored all the instances where there were coordination between land based air forces and naval forces, instead focusing on your autistic little strawman because you seem to think that I don't know that the "Air force" wasn't an independent command in the timeline of WW2, and instead tucked into the Army, which was why it was called USAAF.
>>997946
Need a source for the third and fourth arrows.
Afaik the gommies were reputed to be fighting the Japanese.
>>997946
>break a damn killing hndreds of Chinese peasants
>nationalist
Jiang was cancer
>>997970
>Ok, then through the Japanese occupied NEI. What exactly have you saved by this nonsense?
Japan wouldn't be able to occupy the NEI if their LOC is threatened from the Philippines.
>Because that's the way they went when they re-took the Philippines. What exactly do you think the Marianas campaign was all about?
And going around the Marinaras by way of Australia is how the 1941 convoy to the Philippines was routed historically.
>Go look up how many of them were killed by strategic bombers, and get back to me.
You do realize you can actually put different planes on the Philippines, right? It's not like some kind of a pokemon match where you are limited to the planes you picked at the start of the war.
>>997973
>In every single one of them except Tarawa, the answer was yes you imbecile.
You are either insane or trolling. No one can be this stupid.
>Yes they did. It's not like carriers held that many aircraft, and land based planes were considerably bigger and more powerful.
No, you are simply wrong. A task force could bring 1000 aircraft to a battle. Island airfields were not capable of staging so many.
>And yet you've completely ignored all the instances where there were coordination between land based air forces and naval forces, instead focusing on your autistic little strawman because you seem to think that I don't know that the "Air force" wasn't an independent command in the timeline of WW2, and instead tucked into the Army, which was why it was called USAAF.
There is no strawman. The point is you are a moron who didn't even realize the air force did not exist as a branch. It's a pure ad hominem attack on your retardedness.
Moreover it's completely irrelevant, since the fact is islands were not always reachable by landbased air and landbased air was not capable of massing the required air power on any one instance.
>>997660
>>fuck ww2 the real enemy are the gommies
>>let's hoard all of the lend-lease i get to kill gommies instead of le IJA
>>fuck you stilwell the gommies are the real threat
he was completely right about all of these.
his real mistake was not getting rid of the corrupt fuckups in the KMT.
>>998106
he WAS the head corrupt fuck in the KMT. The whole KMT was notoriously corrupt, so much so that the communists used it in their propaganda to blast the Nationalists
>>998027
>Japan wouldn't be able to occupy the NEI if their LOC is threatened from the Philippines.
They go around via the Carolinas.
>And going around the Marinaras by way of Australia is how the 1941 convoy to the Philippines was routed historically.
If you're referring to the Pensacola convoy, you're kind of skipping over the fact that the route was chosen specifically to try to avoid the bulk of the Japanese presence, and oh yeah, they never made it.
>You do realize you can actually put different planes on the Philippines, right? It's not like some kind of a pokemon match where you are limited to the planes you picked at the start of the war.
Since you're almost certainly unable to get reinforcements in (or even supply the ones you've got) you kind of are limited to what you have at the get-go. Not to mention that most of your hardest hitters on the naval front are also your shortest ranged planes, which means the Japanese blockade can retract depending on what exactly your mix is.
>>998067
>You are either insane or trolling. No one can be this stupid.
F4U corsairs had operational ranges of just over 1,000 miles, or around 1,600 km.
http://www.happyzebra.com/distance-calculator/Tarawa-to-Kwajalein.php
https://www.evi.com/q/distance_between_eniwetok_to_kwajalein
https://www.evi.com/q/distance_between_eniwetok_to_saipan (not coverable by corsairs, but doable by catalinas and most bombers)
https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+from+guam+to+peleieu&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+from+peleieu+to++philippines&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
OBJECTIVELY WRONG.
>>998067
>>998067
>No, you are simply wrong. A task force could bring 1000 aircraft to a battle. Island airfields were not capable of staging so many.
Henderson field at midway based up to 500 aircraft at one time. Please note that land based planes are often bigger and more powerful than CBA. They could certainly project significant force.
>The point is you are a moron who didn't even realize the air force did not exist as a branch
Completely incorrect. I talked about the difficulties of coordinating land based aircraft and naval vessels. That does not imply that the air force was an independent branch and is furthermore irrelevant to the point, since they're not part of the navy.
>oreover it's completely irrelevant, since the fact is islands were not always reachable by landbased air and landbased air was not capable of massing the required air power on any one instance.
OBJECTIVELY WRONG.
http://www.happyzebra.com/distance-calculator/Tarawa-to-Kwajalein.php
https://www.evi.com/q/distance_between_eniwetok_to_kwajalein
https://www.evi.com/q/distance_between_eniwetok_to_saipan (not coverable by corsairs, but doable by catalinas and most bombers)
https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+from+guam+to+peleieu&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+from+peleieu+to++philippines&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>>993193
he was only good with the Bonus Marchers
>>998106
Maybe he was right, but when your enemy blasts you for not fighting the enemy in front of you (the Japanese), you need to do more than hoard your resources for a future battle that might not even happen.
>>998194
And let's look at the produce of your delusions.
>https://www.evi.com/q/distance_between_eniwetok_to_saipan (not coverable by corsairs, but doable by catalinas and most bombers)
Are you fucking serious? You think sending a bunch of Catalinas was effective substitute for "air cover"? And 1,000 miles is a one-way trip for the B-25 *if* it wasn't carrying heavy things like bombs. And this would be done without fighter cover. There was no landbased air cover for anything except maybe the short hop between Tarawa to Kwajalein to Eniwetok.
>Henderson field at midway based up to 500 aircraft at one time.
For the battle of Midway, when they packed the two islands with aircraft and supplies, there were like 100 aircraft. There were not 500 aircraft on Midway.
>Please note that land based planes are often bigger and more powerful than CBA.
B-25s carried maybe 50% more payload than TBF Avengers.
>>998288
>Are you fucking serious? You think sending a bunch of Catalinas was effective substitute for "air cover"?
Oh, so now you mean fighter cover? Pic related. I also like how you focus on exactly one leg of the journey and ignore all the others, for one plane.
> And 1,000 miles is a one-way trip for the B-25 *if* it wasn't carrying heavy things like bombs.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=81
Wrong. While a B-25 would have to be flying at reduced payload and with external fuel tanks, it could definitely make it there and back.
>And this would be done without fighter cover. There was no landbased air cover for anything except maybe the short hop between Tarawa to Kwajalein to Eniwetok.
http://acepilots.com/planes/f4u_corsair.html
Wrong.
>For the battle of Midway, when they packed the two islands with aircraft and supplies, there were like 100 aircraft. There were not 500 aircraft on Midway.
Henderson airfield was established AFTER the battle of Midway, and was in fact named after Major Lofton R. Henderson who was killed in it. Please remember that the island hopping offensives began in 1943, not in 1942.
>B-25s carried maybe 50% more payload than TBF Avengers.
TBF avengers carried either a ton of bombs or a 1 ton torpedo. A B-25 usually had 3,000 pounds of bombs AND a mark 13 torp.
You're not really good at math, are you?
>>998336
Holy shit, you are so busy googling and pulling shit out of wiki and random websites that you don't even realize the difference between maximum range and combat radius. Pro tip: if an aircraft's max range is ~1,000 miles, IT CANNOT MAKE IT BACK from a 1000 mile trip.
>A B-25 usually had 3,000 pounds of bombs AND a mark 13 torp.
No you dumbass, aircraft would carry mission-specific load, not some random torp just for the fuck of it.
>>998488
>Holy shit, you are so busy googling and pulling shit out of wiki and random websites that you don't even realize the difference between maximum range and combat radius. Pro tip: if an aircraft's max range is ~1,000 miles, IT CANNOT MAKE IT BACK from a 1000 mile trip.
Holy shit, maybe you missed the point that even on a standard loadout, a B-25's range is considerably longer than 1,000 miles, and you can extend that by sacrificing your external bomb hardpoints for more fuel tanks, to pretty much double that range. Ever hear of the Doolittle raid?
>No you dumbass, aircraft would carry mission-specific load, not some random torp just for the fuck of it.
So you put in 8 250 pound bombs instead of the torp, that's still 5,000 pounds of bombs, so you're objectively wrong (again) when it comes to the ratio of payloads between the B-25 and the TBF.
>>998501
> a B-25's range is considerably longer than 1,000 miles, and you can extend that by sacrificing your external bomb hardpoints for more fuel tanks, to pretty much double that range
So you have underarmed B-25s flying without fighter cover 1000 miles to and back. Now you see why the carriers were necessary?
>Ever hear of the Doolittle raid?
You mean the tiny ass raid where they scattered small amounts of bombs with no tangible results and the pilots had to bail in China? Yeah that really proves that B-25s could reach everywhere from islands.
>So you put in 8 250 pound bombs instead of the torp, that's still 5,000 pounds of bombs, so you're objectively wrong (again) when it comes to the ratio of payloads between the B-25 and the TBF.
Except B-25 isn't getting 1000 mile range with 5000 pounds of bombs, so now instead of reaching the islands on a suicide trip, you are just tossing them into the ocean.
>>998514
>So you have underarmed B-25s flying without fighter cover 1000 miles to and back. Now you see why the carriers were necessary?
I never said carriers were unnecessary, but nice strawman.
>You mean the tiny ass raid where they scattered small amounts of bombs with no tangible results and the pilots had to bail in China? Yeah that really proves that B-25s could reach everywhere from islands.
It proves they could fly over 4,000 km if absolutely necessary.
>Except B-25 isn't getting 1000 mile range with 5000 pounds of bombs, so now instead of reaching the islands on a suicide trip, you are just tossing them into the ocean.
Remind me again, since your initial point is that 500 "bombers" could prevent a blockade of the Philippines, how this plan works again? (Don't forget, if you're trying to stop surface raiders, you'll have to patrol and hope to find your enemy, rather than striking at a fixed target that you know the location of) And for that matter, if land based air projection was so irrelevant, why bother taking the Marianas and the Palau islands at all, and set up all those air bases there?
>>998336
>Henderson airfield was established AFTER the battle of Midway, and was in fact named after Major Lofton R. Henderson who was killed in it. Please remember that the island hopping offensives began in 1943, not in 1942
Henderson Field was not established after the battle. They just renamed the existing air field. And no, you are fucking deluded if you think Henderson field had 500 aircraft crammed into it.
>>998536
>I never said carriers were unnecessary, but nice strawman.
You said the reason carriers were needed was because air force wouldn't play nice with the navy. Here, this is you.
>They probably won't, which was one of the reasons carriers were so important in practice if not in theory.
>It proves they could fly over 4,000 km if absolutely necessary.
But it doesn't prove that they could provide air cover for the island hopping campaign.
>Remind me again, since your initial point is that 500 "bombers" could prevent a blockade of the Philippines, how this plan works again?
B-17s would keep Formosa suppressed, which means Japs would be limited to the ~400 aircraft of the KB. My theory is that that would not be nearly enough to overcome a Philippines reinforced with several times the aircraft and would certainly prevent them from capturing Malaya and NEI in the necessary timeframe.
Basically Japan's only chance is to rush Singapore and Philippines at once. They cannot do this if their air power is caught up and fighting to a stand-still at one place.
>>998583
>You said the reason carriers were needed was because air force wouldn't play nice with the navy. Here, this is you.
Yes, and other operations, especially in the Mediterranean, showcased enormous complications involved in trying to coordinate land based air with deep blue naval operations. Trying to make sure that the planes were over the boats when you needed them to be is tougher in practice than it is in theory.
That doesn't mean that carriers are otherwise useless, or aren't force projectors in their own right.
>But it doesn't prove that they could provide air cover for the island hopping campaign.
Except for the fact that it it is well established by the historical record that they fucking did. When Kwajalein was seized, the 7th air force was providing support. When Guam was attacked, it was preceded by Operation Forager, which featured planes attacking from Midway. When they returned to the Philippines, the 5th air force was providing support, reinforced by a squadron of Mexicans of all people. Where the fuck do you think these people based from, if not the islands further up the chains?
>B-17s would keep Formosa suppressed, which means Japs would be limited to the ~400 aircraft of the KB.
Adorable. How exactly would this work? Much heavier aerial bombardments than 500 (and you'll have less if you want to have anti-naval bombers as well keeping the Japs from blockading you) planes failed to keep German airfields down in Europe. You're also completely ignoring the air projection capabilities the Japanese possessed from the Carolines and the Palaus, which, need I remind you, were used by the U.S. when they were attacking later in the war.
>>998583
>my theory is that that would not be nearly enough to overcome a Philippines reinforced with several times the aircraft and would certainly prevent them from capturing Malaya and NEI in the necessary timeframe.
And a very half-assed theory it is, since you still haven't explained how you're going to get supplies through in the face of naval inferiority, or how a force of a few dozen submarines are going to protect regular convoys.
>Basically Japan's only chance is to rush Singapore and Philippines at once. They cannot do this if their air power is caught up and fighting to a stand-still at one place.
Or, they show a minimal degree of resilence, cut off your communications, seize the NEI, and starve out the remainder.
And nevermind the fact that MacArthur couldn't control deployments of aerial assets all around the world in the first place, so you can't fucking blame him for not having them in the first place.
>>998679
>When Kwajalein was seized, the 7th air force was providing support
I already set aside Kwajalein as the one island that was close enough for landbased air.
>When Guam was attacked, it was preceded by Operation Forager, which featured planes attacking from Midway
Do you even know where Guam is?
> When they returned to the Philippines, the 5th air force was providing support,
Which was flying out of the fucking Philippines itself, *after* the invasion force had landed under carrier-based air cover. They weren't flying out of Saipan or Guam to support an invasion of the Philippines despite what you may want to believe.
>Adorable. How exactly would this work?
Planes would fly to Formosa and drop bombs on it.
>Much heavier aerial bombardments than 500 (and you'll have less if you want to have anti-naval bombers as well keeping the Japs from blockading you) planes failed to keep German airfields down in Europe.
Yeah and there was no difference whatsoever between all of Europe and a couple of forward bases on Taiwan.
>>998679
>When Guam was attacked, it was preceded by Operation Forager, which featured planes attacking from Midway.
>>998839
>I already set aside Kwajalein as the one island that was close enough for landbased air.
From further up in the Marshalls, which wasn't where the 7th was based.
>Do you even know where Guam is?
Yes, I do.
>Which was flying out of the fucking Philippines itself, *after* the invasion force had landed under carrier-based air cover. They weren't flying out of Saipan or Guam to support an invasion of the Philippines despite what you may want to believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Forces_in_the_South_West_Pacific_Theatre
Wrong.
>Planes would fly to Formosa and drop bombs on it.
And get shot down by Japanese planes, dispersed by Japanese flack, and have the bases and planes fixed after they leave?
>Yeah and there was no difference whatsoever between all of Europe and a couple of forward bases on Taiwan.
Of course there were, but Taiwan was hardly "a couple of forward bases", and would not be put out of action so easily.
>>998851
My apologies, I meant Marshalls, not Midway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guam_%281944%29
>>998023
>scorched earth is not legitimate in total war
>>999025
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Forces_in_the_South_West_Pacific_Theatre
All you did was cite the most generic, unspecific wiki page. What exactly is this supposed to prove? Do you even know?
>And get shot down by Japanese planes, dispersed by Japanese flack, and have the bases and planes fixed after they leave?
What exactly are you even trying to say? That no one could ever successfully attack enemy air field because air defenses existed, and no air field could be destroyed because possibility of repair existed?
Consider also the fact that you are arguing on the other hand that small groups of B-24s were by themselves sufficient to suppress Japanese air fields in the Island Hopping campaign. It sounds like you are willing to say any retarded nonsense no matter how absurd in order to keep an internet argument going, in the hopes that you will outlast me and "win."
>Of course there were, but Taiwan was hardly "a couple of forward bases", and would not be put out of action so easily.
It was put out of action rather easily in 1944.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guam_%281944%29
Do you even know what happened in the Battle of Guam? It was supported by 24 carriers. Something like 10 landbased aircraft flying out of Saipan chipped in, but they played negligible role.
>>999125
>All you did was cite the most generic, unspecific wiki page. What exactly is this supposed to prove? Do you even know?
Oh look, you either didn't or couldn't read. Go look up where the formations in the 5th were based. Then look up when the Battle of the Phillipines occured. Then realize that most of the 5th was only moved the the Phillipines itself AFTER Japanese resistance had been largely neutralized, and when they were storming beaches, the air support was coming in from further afield.
>What exactly are you even trying to say?
That even with a 500 bomber force, the odds of you being able to neutralize the Japanese air projection capabilities in Taiwan are so low as to be almost zero.
>Consider also the fact that you are arguing on the other hand that small groups of B-24s were by themselves sufficient to suppress Japanese air fields in the Island Hopping campaign.
Except of course, that I said no such thing. I'm saying that they're capable of providing ground support to extant land operations; which is another thing entirely than interdiction bombing.
>It was put out of action rather easily in 1944.
With a hell of a lot more force and regular communications back enabling easy repair, refuelling, rearming, etc; none of which exist in December of 1941.
>Do you even know what happened in the Battle of Guam? It was supported by 24 carriers. Something like 10 landbased aircraft flying out of Saipan chipped in, but they played negligible role.
Except, once again, objectively wrong.
http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Compac45.html
>More than 600 vessels ranging from battleships and aircraft carriers to cruisers, high-speed transports and tankers, more than 2,000 aircraft, and some 300,000 Navy, Marine and Army personnel took part in the capture of the Marianas.
>From about the beginning of June, land-based aircraft from the Admiralties, Green, Emirau and Hollandia kept enemy bases, especially at Truk, Palau, and Yap, well neutralized.
>>998023
>it's only okay to kill peasants when you're a communist
