>When the great Tao is abandoned,
Benevolence and righteousness arise.
What did he mean by this?
>>969392
>HAVE WE BEGUN TO UNDERSTOOD THE TAO, SIFU?
>YES, THE TAO RISES.
>>969398
>implying the Tao which can be understood is actually Tao
baka desu senpai
>>969410
What did he mean by this?
>>969410
Bad translation mate
>>969414
Names can name no lasting name.
The great Dao fades away
There is benevolence and justice
Intelligence comes forth
There is great deception
>>969410
This.
>>969414
Dao is the Way of the universe. If we just follow it, there is no risk of going wrong. But when we deviate from it, we are sure to make mistakes, no matter how noble our intentions are. Following Dao is doing what is natural. Anything else is a mistake, leading to complications, shortcomings, and confusion.
Benevolence and righteousness are fine qualities, but they are no guarantee of doing the right thing. If our loss of the Way is substituted by ever so good intentions, they are still just substitutes. Using them as compasses for our actions is bound to lead us even more astray. Our good deeds turn out to have bad consequences, because they lack the understanding of how things work at length in this world.
Laozi was no friend of knowledge and wisdom. He saw them as meager substitutes for a true understanding of Dao and sincere acceptance of its terms. At the Chinese emperor's court, he had seen wise men use their wisdom for their own advancement. They played their roles with cunning and cleverness, but rarely used their mental resources for the benefit of all.
Even when used with the best intentions, knowledge is a poor guide, compared to awareness of Dao. It creates a false understanding of the world. Therefore it leads to false conclusions. Anyone wise enough to recognize this has the choice of either throwing it all away in search of Dao, or insisting on knowledge being a perfectly reliable substitute. The latter takes some folly to trust.
There is pretense in claiming that wisdom finds the Way, and there is pretense in claiming that knowledge penetrates Dao. They are insufficient substitutes, no matter how pompously they present themselves.
>>969501
What makes this any different than Plato? Someone annoyed by the popular sophists claims there is some secret actual truth beyond everyday life and you should pay lots of attention to them to learn about it
The Tao is the Logos, which is Jesus.
>>969527
There are indeed several similiarities within Plato and Eastern philosophies.
Daoism and Southern Chan Buddhism appreciate more the "intuitive knowledge that comes from within", like he does.
The real father of Western philosophy is Aristotle and his empiricism.
>>969534
Speaking of comparisons, I immediately thought of Matthew 15:9 as soon as I read OP:
>But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
"In the northern darkness there is a fish and his name is K'un. The K'un is so huge I don't know how many thousand li he measures. He changes and becomes a bird whose name is P'eng. The back of the P'eng measures I don't know how many thousand li across and, when he rises up and flies off, his wings are like clouds all over the sky. When the sea begins to move, this bird sets off for the southern darkness, which is the Lake of Heaven."
What did he mean by this?
Were Schopenhauer or Nietzsche aware of Laozi?
For most ancient chinese texts, when in doubt, consult Red Pine's translation.
When the Great Way disappears we meet kindness and justice
when reason appears we meet great deceit
when the six relations fail we meet obedience and love
when the country is in chaos we meet honest officials
There's a bitter, sarcastic tone to the chapter, a phrase like "honest officials" is implied to be an oxymoron. The point is how there's a kind of falseness to all these social constructions. The Way is without knowing, without pretense. When people are in accord with the Way they don't strive for nobility, fame, gain etc.
>>969615
>Schopenhauer
He definitely was obsessed with India and China to stumble upon the Dao, whether directly or indirectly - pic related mentions the Yijing (I-Ching).
Sauce is:
http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp200_schopenhauer.pdf
He was aware of Confucius and had a copy of the Latin translation of Mencius.
>Choo-foo-tze [Kongfuzi, Confucius] says that “to affirm,
that heaven has a man (i. e. a sapient be-
ing) that is there to judge and determine
crimes, should not by any means be said;
nor, on the other hand, should it be af-
firmed that there is nothing at all to exer-
cise a supreme control over these things.”
>They even have, possibly through mutual influence, a certain conformity with each other, which is why there is even an adage that
“the three teachings are just one.”
He was aware that there were 3 great religions in China and he was THAT close to naming Laozi.
I'm positive Nietzsche also read his stuff.
>>969605
>The little quail laughs at him, saying, "Where does he think he's going? I give a great leap and fly up, but I never get more than ten or twelve yards before I come down fluttering among the weeds and brambles. And that's the best kind of flying anyway! Where does he think he's going?" Such is the difference between big and little
It's - wait for it - Plato's cave all over again.
The quail is the prisoner of Plato's cave, the Peng is the sage who goes beyond.
>>969392
Benevolence and righteousness are value judgement that nevertheless lead to decay, as they are out of harmony with the Tao.
>the Dao is beyond good and bad
So essentially, the Dao is "will to power" but from a nihilistic viewpoint.
>>969891
No. Taoism is about acting in accordance with a fundamental way of the universe. Will to power goes directly against the concept of wu wei (non-action) that is crucial to Taoist philosophy.
>>969927
>Daoism is about acting in accordance with a fundamental way of the universe
Which fundamental way? From what viewpoint?
The Dao is nonbeing/wu (Wang Bi), literally negation. Naturally an affirmative philosophy goes against the concept of wu wei.
>>970134
>Which fundamental way? From what viewpoint?
I don't know what you mean by "From what viewpoint". The Tao is the metaphysical fabric of reality that affects everything and every function. It is hard to grasp this force, but acting in accordance to it is the ideal in Taoism. A decent comparison would be our "forces of Nature".
Wu is nothingness, but Wang Bi is a philosopher so I don't know what you mean by that. Wu-wei can be interpreted as "achievement through emulation of the way", so that the action itself is effortless. It implies acting in an ego-less, natural way.
I fail to see the problem you are trying to address.
>>969527
>Why do people everywhere claim the things they believe?
Probably aliens To Be Honest
>>970190
>metaphysical
>ideal
>forces of Nature
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_forces
Wang Bi is one of the most influential interpreters.
>effortless
>ego-less
You are confirming my nihilistic hypothesis at the least, "forces of nature" seems to confirm the Will to Power part too.
>>970363
But Will to Power gives value to achievement. The achievement I mentioned isn't the same in a Taoist context because it actively denies dual and value judgement.
>>970190
>The Tao is the metaphysical fabric of reality that affects everything and every function. It is hard to grasp this force, but acting in accordance to it is the ideal in Taoism
If it's a fundamental metaphysical force affecting everything, you can't not act in accordance with it. Every single action that is possible is in accordance with it, and acting against it would literally be not possible, at least without leaving the universe.
>>970643
No, because there are also the forces of Yin and Yang, which emanated from the Tao, governing the universe. If these are out of balance, there is discord as they fall out of each other's influence.
>>970675
If Yin and Yang emerge from the Tao, then shouldn't their relative balance/imbalance also emerge? Whatever the balance or imbalance happened to be, it would have to be in accordance with the metaphysical underpinnings of the universe.
>>970814
Not necessarily. From my understanding Yin is governed by Yang, in which a celestial court gives orders to he physical world. Humans are beings of Yin, but descended from a pair of dragons composed of Ying and Yang, respectively. Therefore we are separate from the cycle of nature, and prone to disrupt this balance. It becomes necessary to accurately interpret heaven, or go one step further and act in accordance to the Dao.
If Taoism is so great, why is modern day China a shithole? Checkmate, Chinaboos.
>>970858
England. The answer is England.
>>970858
It was Confucian then Communist. Daoist regimes were centuries ago.
Also ITT it seems the superior will to power of europe and japan could be partly the reason.
>>970850
>Therefore we are separate from the cycle of nature,
You can't violate the fundamental metaphysical underpinnings of reality, though. At best you can locally disrupt a certain temporary earth cycle ("nature"), but that has no effect on how the entire universe works. In fact, humans are part of the universe so any disruptions we cause are actually just a disguised regular occurrence. Either the Tao isn't actually the fundamental metaphysical force of the universe and exists on a lower scale where humans can act against it, or it is the fundamental metaphysical force of the he universe but it is impossible to act against it.
>>970912
>At best you can locally disrupt a certain temporary earth cycle
Yes. This causes discord. Acting in accordance to the way creates peace. I don't see the point you are trying to make. It's not important on a universal scale, but for bringing harmony between heaven and earth.
>>970925
>I don't see the point you are trying to make.
That if it is simply limited to a peace making process of humans on earth, it isn't exactly an objective metaphysical aspect of reality as in >>970190. It is, in fact, subject to viewpoints and other subjectivites. At best, it is a philosphical system with embedded value judgements.
>>970942
It is a religion because it has a discourse on the transcendent. It explains the universe in terms of Tao, Ying and Yang and details a celestial court system filled with various gods. There are also magical practices including geomancy and transformative magic.
That's like saying at best, Christianity is a philosophical system with embedded value judgements.
>>970963
>That's like saying at best, Christianity is a philosophical system with embedded value judgements.
I would also say this is a reasonable statement. Trying to porttsy God's will as an objective metaphysical underpinning of the universe has historically caused a lot of theological snafus. Really only Calvinism and some forms of Islam really keep it consistent but the implications are kind of nightmarish.
>>970942
It is implied nature acts in accordance to the Tao because nature is not sentient. So yes, the Tao is the objective metaphysical fabric of reality that humans can stray from.
>>970977
Well, read up on models of religion, then.
I have no idea. Taoism makes no sense to me.
>>970858
Confucianism ruined China and all of its neighboring countries.
Maybe I'm being a bit of a conspiracy theory, but I believe the book burnings of China which ultimately ended the great period of Chinese philosophy was the doing of Confucianists. They wanted to desecrate the other schools, and they did.
>>969392
Same thing the bible says. Where the Law is applied, sin abounds.
>>969583
WTF Plato is all about trying to build our lives around unseen perfect forms - The Republic is the opposite of what Chuang Tzu would advocate, for instance.
you become conscious of oxygen only when it lacks.
>>973477
>He who is not a good servant will not be a good master.
>Science is nothing but perception.
>Justice means minding one's own business and not meddling with other men's concerns.
>For good nurture and education implant good constitutions.
>Man never legislates, but destinies and accidents, happening in all sorts of ways, legislate in all sorts of ways.
The man has his differences, but sometimes I can't tell him from an Eastern philosopher.
>>973440
The Analects (and Master Kong himself) are pretty based tbqh.
>>973956
I wished more people read the Analects nowadays. Nobody cultivates virtue anymore.
>>969392
When the Dao is lost, people start doing things for the false purposes of "benevolence", or "righteousness", "out of respect" or "for duty".
Since these things are merely rhetorical, a great confusion comes into the world, as each man claims his own selfish purpose to be the 'righteous' or 'benevolent' way. Thus, we are blinded to the Dao.
He was warning of Confucism. When the Dao is replaced by lipservice to family and duty, men can pervert the words 'benevolence', 'righteousness' and 'duty' for their own purposes.
Its means you take an inherently demonic religion with a text literally used soley for divination purposes (I Ching) seem cool with intentionally vague statements
-ex taoist turned Christian
>>976791
This is basically correct
Even in terms of scholarship, not veracity of doctrine, this thread is full of misinformed opinions (I think that comparing Daoism to Platonism misses the point of both)
All great moral teachings are basically similar, but Daoism taken by itself is anti-moralism.
Taoism is basically just ancient Zizekism
>>976840
>The tao is the ideology of no ideology *sniff*
>>976791
what made you turn to Christianity?
>>969534
What would Christian Taoism look like?
>go with the flow, accept things as they are for Gods will is inscrutable
>man made values are no substitute for trust in the Way/Logos/Christ
On the surface, it seems like it would be pretty based tbqh.
>>978721
It would look like Jesus, as Jesus said He is The Way.
>>976791
>ex taoist turned Christian
Daily reminder Christianity is a desert barbarian religion that advocates intolerance and strife among its Chinese converts, especially Protestantism. Just like it's counterpart, Radical Mohammedanism.
>Taiping Rebellion.
>Pastor Sex Rings.
>Wacko cults like pic related.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-28641008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/11046155/Inside-Chinas-most-radical-cult.html
Chinese Christianity: not even once. It serves justice and propriety that Christianity is placed under secular inquisition by authorities. It is deviant, anti-establishment, and degenerate. Hopefully it goes the way of Chan Buddhism or Hui Islam and becomes integrated into Chinese culture. Not the other way around.
>>978767
Maybe Chinese churches should be informed/influenced bt Taoism, like Catholic Church in the west was influenced by Classical Hellenic philosophy.
>>978767
>50 cents had been deposited into your account
>>978785
Trolling aside: that is what is happening to Chinese Christianity. It is interesting because Forced isolation of Christianity in China by Government & Cultural mores led to totally different forms of Christianity. Give Chinese Catholicism -which appoints its own cardinals no matter what Rome fucking says- a couple of Centuries and it would be Chink as fuck.
The byproduct of all these are wacko cults like the Church of the Almighty God and others.
We saw an early version of this in Chinese Nestorian Christianity which was so fucking popular, T'ang-Song China's Christian communities were set to become the bastion of Nestorianism, but alas, their association with Turks and Mongol rule made them unpopular and many converted out of it.
>>976812
>Daoism taken by itself is anti-moralism.
Laozi's ethics is: conform to the Dao or fuck off.
>>976791
Funnily enough, I'm pretty much the same
What do you do about meditation though? I found transcendental meditation to be quite helpful, until I found out the meaningless chants were actually names of gods.
It hasn't been as successful for me since. The meditation, I mean. I just don't feel comfortable chanting anything anymore, even using God's name in it feels reductionist and blasphemous.
But man did that help with anxiety and focus.
>>978847
Is that so?
>>979018
For Laozi, ethics is built on human conduct's conformity with Dao.
This correspondence relation comes in a prescriptive form: one ought to act in accordance with Dao. It demands that all humans conform to Dao. Laozi says: "In his every movement a man of great virtue follows [Daoj and [Daoj only." "A man of [Dao] conforms to [Daoj.... He who conforms to [Daoj is gladly accepted by [Dao]." "A creature in its prime doing harm to the old is known as going against [Dao]. That which goes against [Dao] will come to an early end." From these remarks, we see that Laozi embraces the view that an act is good if and only if it corresponds with what naturally is Dao. Morality consists in imitating Dao, which transcends human conception of the good. Since there is only one good way, ethics is not relative to different opinions or cultures. Laozi would defi nitely reject ethical relativism, which is often associated with anti-realism. As Schwartz remarks: " [Laozi] had not entirely freed himself from 'value judgment'. To Laozi, there is something that is good in and of itself.
>>978854
>names of gods
Demons.
