ITT: We discuss the mongols, nomads, and other steppe folk.
Does anyone have a good bibliography for the Mongolian Khanates?
>>932564
Hey,
I've just finished reading Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World by Jack Weatherford and it gives a really great historical narrative style story. If it irks you that some sources may not be translated well or that Weatherford's thesis is a bit weak, it's really insightful secondary source. Another great book related to this topic is The Mongols by David Morgan which I have also read and it is just the perfect book for understanding this.
>>932564
I honestly find the Mong empire the more boring of the Steppe Nomads. Not to mention the most pop history'd and memed.
>>932564
literally the shittiest civilization in history, their only achivement ever was being good fighters and conquering others. but they never produced anything culturally significant (the cultural achivements by the peoples they subjugated doesn't count). at least the norse had their sagas, created runestones and statues. all nomads did was ride around, fight, steal other people's shit.
>>932564
>helmets with masks
Cool, ridiculous, or both?
>>932585
>all nomads did was ride around, fight, steal other people's shit.
sounds fucking amazing, senpai
>>932590
cool
>>932585
Fuck mate, do you actually have down syndrome?
The Mongols created a national postal system, connect china with the rest of Europe, a complex legal system (religious tolerance, crime free state), although they weren't great scientists they invested huge sums of money into the practice and they also did the same for engineering and architecture.
Think about what you say first you retarded butthurt cuck. Go fuck yourself and don't judge a civilization when you have absolutely no research about it.
>>932596
>national postal system
Based on the Chinese system
>connect china with the rest of Europe
Remind me how that link was broken again? Oh right, Nomad infighting...
>complex legal system (religious tolerance)
>complex
>Shit on Jewish & Muslim traditions like kosher, halal, or circumcision and kill them for resisting.
>>932599
Nope, they had a completely different postal system to china. I do agree about the link being broken by the fighting within and it is because of the Genghis Khan's grandchildren refusing to cooperate with each other, I wouldn't blame it on their nomadic lifestyle though. You seem to have minimal knowledge on this matter so what's even the point cunt?
>>932599
>kosher, halal, or circumcision
All savagery that should be stamped out.
>>932585
They did have literature, The Secret History of the Mongols (Mongγol-un niγuca tobčiyan) for example.
Here's a Mongolian Poem:
Let me eloquently praise in rhymes
Your mighty wisdom renowned to all
With four arms and unique face
With three red circular eyes
With naturally growing yellow hair
With teeth grinding an entire human
You uproot sins of passion
With a sword in your front right hand
You disperse countless doubts
With a skull in your other hand
You crush the asuras on high
With a spear in your upper left hand
Holding an open trident
In your next lower hand
With a lean young face
With an elephant-skin robe
With an open back-vestment connected to
A half-cut of cowskin
With a heroic-hearted lion as
An earring on your right ear
With a dark and speckled snake as
An earring on your left ear too
(Line missing)
(Line missing)
With prayer beads linked around your neck
With a black snake as your belt
With might that is capable of everything
With a bald donkey mount
(1/2)
>>932617
As your amazing wheel-vehicle
Making the sun in the blue sky
Rise by your sweat
Mahakala, who adorns admirably
His legs with metal chains
If your voice is heard
Firm Mount Sumeru quakes
Mahakala, who makes quiver from the depths
The hearts of bloody enemies
Though you are of a peaceful spirit
You frighten demons and hindrances
Mahakala, who leads towards “alaraa”
By showing an “aguulsan” quality
The wise divine Mahakala
Who by working various wonders
Did subject before himself
The powerful gods and asuras
Punish, luminous Mahakala
The evil rebellious spirits
Who destroy religion and dharma
Though outwardly of the Well-Departed (Buddha).
Give rest in peace, Mahakala
To all friendly sentient beings
While protecting scholars and the devout
Now … (line incomplete)
May we shatter by your strength
Bloody enemy demons
Who speak sweetly in the ear
Yet wish evil in their hearts
Attach yourself to and protect, Mahakala
The lord of dharma, king and queen
Teachers, ministers, sons and daughters
Nobles and sons-in-law, each and everyone.
By the merit of praising in these rhymes
Your holiness’ mighty wisdom
May all beings reach nirvana
And may this cycle become empty
May the monk Choiji-Odser
Who summarizing all your mighty wisdom
Melodically offers these rhymed praises
Escape … (line incomplete)
(line missing)
If they sing with their melodious song
May all illnesses and demons be pacified
And each become Buddhas at the end.
throat singing is pretty goat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpQkYxING4I
>>932585
You forget that they did throat singing using their own unique instrument.
Also their national sport was wrestling.
>>932564
Anyone interested in the mongols should definitely check out UNESCOs History of Central Asia. Its in pdf form and i can up it if anyone needs it.
Its a 6 volume, 7 book series on central asia from neolithic times to near the end of communism. Really fantastic and it uses the larger definition of central asia so includes Tibet, parts of Iran, Mongolia
Love this area anon, such a shame its so difficult to find much work on anything except Genghis.
Anyone know any books about the northern Yuan?
>>932608
No you fucking idiot. The link Europe China link- the silk road- was broken by all those steppe nomads fighting - the Mongols included in that shit-show.
> I do agree about the link being broken by the fighting within and it is because of the Genghis Khan's grandchildren refusing to cooperate with each other, I wouldn't blame it on their nomadic lifestyle though.
I fucking would. The clannishness of the Mongs is a huge as fuck reason why their central administration - if that ever existed even- broke the fuck up.
And yes, the postal system they used was the Chinese one. Pony express is literally some of the more primitive comms systems ever.
>>932613
Congrats, they weren't religiously tolerant then.
>>932716
>Congrats, they weren't religiously tolerant then.
Allowing people to mistreat children and animals isnt tolerance.
>>932736
So now we're talking outside religious matters.
>Mongols
>Humane
Laughtrack
>>932758
>people
>black and white.
You can slaughter a city because it suits your war goals and still be disgusted by people mutilating kids and slaughtering animals with unnecessary cruelty.
>>932777
Again, we were talking about religious tolerance. And then you kept moving the goalposts.
And again
>Mongols
>Humane
Yeah, all those cities sacked of the people who never attacked them. So humane.
ITT: Serious case of John Green.
>>932803
So are we talking about their humaneness or their religious tolerance?
They were tolerant. Tolerance isnt Swedish bend over and take every dick. They let muslims and jews pray, they gave money to for mosques, for schools etc. the only 'intolerant' thing they did was ban the way they killed animals and banned circumcision.
Why did they ban these things?
>>932564
I never understood this fascination with the mongols. A bunch of horsefucking steppeniggers whose greatest achievement is killing 10% of the world population. No arts, no literature, no great monuments, just a giant cemetery spanning from China to Russia, through Persia and Babylon.
I've concluded that people think "le mongols were so based XD" because they were one of the few non-white civilizations who beat white people in warfare, so anti-white racists latch on to them out of hate for white people. I wonder if the mongols would be viewed so favourably had they been European...
>inb4 butthurt stormfag
I'm not even white.
>>932847
There's literally Mongol literature posted in this thread. You may not be a Stormfag but that doesn't mean you're not stupid.
>>932853
>There's literally Mongol literature posted in this thread.
>Mongol literature
They have like a single book. Wow-wee.
>>932585
Butthurt Persian detected.
>>932854
I posted two works you idiot. And if you did more research you'd see there's much more.
Sure, you may not like the Mongols, but why should we only study those that we ethically agree with?
I suggest you take a break from the internet, and allow yourself to finish puberty before you start posting again.
Guys, calm down
Have a qt Mongol rapper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGfl-G_qMDs
>>932868
Nah lads we're having Tuvan folk rock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4IwxzU3Kv8
>>932875
>Tuvans
Literally Uriangkhai demi-Turk halfbreeds, they don't even speak proper Mongolian.
>>932878
This is a nomad thread lad
They're part mongol anyway
>>932884
What about non-nomadic Mongolian peoples like the transbaikalian Buryats and the Daurians?
>>932886
This is a mongol thread lad
Buryats have nomadic herding anyway
>>932854
You know of one book therefore there is only one book.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_literature
![daur_girl_painting[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/baZqx9Z.jpg "daur_girl_painting[1].jpg")
>>932886
pic related, Daurian qt.
The Daurians speak a Mongolic language that features several word roots and linguistic properties not found in the modern Mongolian languages (Standard Mongolian (i.e. Khalkh), Buryat, Oirat, Mengguer etc.) but in Khitan, the extinct language of a "para-Mongolian" people that lived in Manchuria and was a perennial foe of the Koreans. The Khitans are perhaps best known for conquering parts of northern China in the Middle Ages, then becoming Sinicized (forming the "Liao dynasty") and eventually migrating westwards to dominate the Muslim Karakhanid state, forming the Buddhist Kara-Khitai state that dealt some unprecedented crushing blows to the Seljuks, further fostering European legends of a "Prester John" fighting the Muslims from his mythical, Christian kingdom in the East (reports of Christian Mongol tribes like the Naimans and Kereits were also part of the story).
The Khitans might have thus been one of several offshoots of the original proto-Mongolic Xianbei, with the ancestors of the "Mongols proper" being a different one.
>tfw when conquered world but spent all the loot on China and petty border wars leaving the homeland destitute of horses, men and a herds.
>tfw when have to run back to that broke, impoverished land.
one mongolian in four is a direct descendant of genghis khan.
>>932847
>few non-white civilizations who beat white people in warfare
>few
>>933026
The idiots did try to make a city in Mongolia.
TRIED.
It withered and collapsed because no one in his right mind would veer away the major trade routes just to visit some out of the way place, no matter if the so-called world conqueror made it his capital.
>>933056
They didnt try they did but when Qubilai won the civil war he moved the capital to Dadu and then the city withered and died.
>>932892
There is indeed only one book mentioned in the "imperial era" paragraph, the "secret history of the mongols".
You should've read the wikipedia link before posting, you wouldn't have looked like an idiot.
>>932866
>I posted two works you idiot.
Wow, they're literary geniuses. I take back what I said.
>Sure, you may not like the Mongols, but why should we only study those that we ethically agree with?
We shouldn't. I'm saying that there isn't much to study, because the mongols were a shit tier civilization.
>I suggest you take a break from the internet, and allow yourself to finish puberty before you start posting again.
I suggest you take off the fedora and remove the dragon dildo from your anus.
>>933050
Name them.
>>932608
>>932716
Do you have a source for the claim that the system was a Chinese one? It is true that the yam, or Mongol postal service, continued on most observably in the Ming Dynasty, but that's only because we have strong evidence that there was a postal system of similar structure amongst the Ming, who were heavily influenced by their Yuan predecessors. Nonetheless, the main authoritative sources on the existence of the yam are Rashid ad-Din and the Secret History of the Mongols, both of which outline the origins and clearly state that during the a postal system was established during a council with Ogedei and his family members. Similarly, the claim that it was Chinese is based on circumstantial evidence that there was a similar system put in place amongst the Khitans, who are much more similar to the Mongols than the regions and Chinese subjects they governed.
Nonetheless, saying that the "pony express is primitive m8" doesn't do the system justice, either. It was a system run directly by the central administration, or respective authorities in each part of the empire, and with an organised structure that was very effective in carrying messages thousands of kilometres. Horses, feed, and provisions were directly maintained by the army, and couriers were given impunity from local authorities to take provisions if need be (which was exploited by some couriers later on, rooted out in the reign of Ghazan). Even then, the pony express as the commonly understood system in the Western United States was the fastest way of getting a letter across before the invention of the telegram. What is your point, then?
HOL UP!
SO U BE SAYIN'.. WE WUZ MONGOLS N SHIT?
>>933114
>one book
There were other works written down in this period, but they were lost over time. The main reason we know of their existence is because of derivative works written in later periods, which presumably built off of the works written in the Imperial Era, not to mention letters, poems, decrees written etc.
>>933159
*during the reign of Ogedei
>>933114
Mohammed, does it bother you that you are part mongolian.
>>932585
>this nigger has never watched a mongolian performance of the Gesar epic
The most you know about central asia was waifufagging to Otoyomegatari
>>933168
Said nobody ever.
Even the guys who had Mongol descent denied it. Case in point.
>>933114
>There is indeed only one book mentioned in the "imperial era" paragraph, the "secret history of the mongols".
Move the goal posts some more. No one said anything about limiting it to the imperial era.
>>933159
Yes. The fucking pavilion's system. Not to mention Inns in China always kept a spare horse. This was during the fucking Song so no bloody Mongols around.
Not to mention why the Imperial Seal is so goddamned important that it became THE Chinese crown jewel. Cunts bearing messages marked were due to all assistance by the Emperor's subjects to speed him on his way.
>The Meme Bureaucratic Empire had a more primitive comms system than Mongols.
Fucking kek.
>>933230
Turks claim descent from Mongols all the time, and occasionally that all of non-brown Asia was turks n shit
>>933114
>Name them.
M8 Whites did not have fucking supremacy in the medieval ages, nor even the next two centuries that followed that age.
Are we seriously forgetting the Muslim Invasions? The failures of the Crusades? And the disappearance of the whole Balkans/Carpathians under the Turks? And the fact that the age of discovery Euronigs were only colonizing spaces where tribes lived but stayed the fuck away out of Japan or China's way?
>>933114
There was more than one book mentioned you imbecile. Book On Sacrifice to the Big Dipper for example.
Now stop moving goalposts and accept that you're wrong.
>>933249
Existence of a similar, but different system simultaneously doesn't imply direct influence or adoption of said system. Also, it's different than individual inns lending out horses - it was a militarised system of outposts outfitted with provisions and designated messengers.
Can you elaborate on the exact primitiveness of the system, however? Given the technology and methods available at the time, what would you have done for a better system of communication?
>>933251
>Turks claim descent from Mongols all the time
Cuckoo clock Turanists don't count.
Turkic nobles walking around with the title of "Khan" predated the Mongols. Following the Mongol Invasions, a lot of these Turkics abandoned their Nomadic roots that tied them to the Mongs. The dynasty in India that was called "Mughal" used Persianate titles and the dynasty officially known as Gurkhani or Timurid. The Ottomans considered themselves...Ottoman or Ottoman subjects. For them a "Turk" is a yurt dwelling nomadic barbarian.
>>933056
>>933099
The city was burnt down during the Northern Yuan, so good luck trying to find a strong remnant of it - hence, why it was perceived as a non-city. But it was the centre of empire for decades with imperial splendour, but was built from the ground-up in the middle of nowhere, so no wonder there was trouble maintaining it beyond its due date.
>>932564
also OP, I'd recommend books by Peter Jackson, Charles Melville, Thomas Allsen, Morris Rossabi, George Lane and other similar scholars I've forgotten to mention. it doesn't need mentioning, but any other secondary sources like the Cambridge Histories are equally useful for picking up the scholarly understandings of the period
>>932585
>norse runestones
>sagas
what's the difference between those and this?
>>933349
Norse Sagas were written by Christian monks
>>933349
reads: Chinggis Khaan-i sartagul irgen daguliju baguju hamug monggol ulus-un noyod-i buga sochigai hurgisan-dur Yesungge onondur-un gurban zaguda guchin tabun aldas-dor ondudlaga
translates: Yesungge hit the target at 335 ald (or over half a kilometre) at the gathering of the Mongols at Buga Sochigai after Chinggis Khaan had come from fighting the Sartagul(Khwarezmians)
>>932847
thisss, if the mongols didnt invade, bahgdad would still be great, china would modernize faster, and entire asia wouldnt stagant behind europe
if the mongols got their.shit toegether and invaded past vienna and eurofags did get fucked by the mongols themselves you all would have different opinions on the.horsefuckers
>>932596
>The Mongols created a national postal system, connect china with the rest of Europe, a complex legal system (religious tolerance, crime free state), although they weren't great scientists they invested huge sums of money into the practice and they also did the same for engineering and architecture.
Is this nigga fucking serious?
Their postal system was LITERALLY just an expansion of China's border system.
They didn't connect shit, the west had plenty of contact before any of these shitters appeared and they did NOTHING to expand or increase it long term.
Their legal system was primitive as fuck, yeah sure religious tolerance was cool but that was NOT A NEW IDEA, even the fucking Muslims tolerated other faiths so long as they paid a tax. Their legal system made Hammurabic law look fucking 21st century.
The Mongols did very little other than destroy what others had build, and repurpose the ideas of others into their own 'empire'. They created NOTHING of any lasting value. West african KANGZ N SHIET literally created more culture of value than the Mongols.
There is a reason that you wont find a single trace of Mongol civilisation anywhere in the lands the conquered today. Hell the fucking Turkic peoples were way more successful.
>>933530
gr8 b8 8/8
>>933195
Don't talk shit about otoyomegatari senpai
>>932582
SOMETHING IS POPULAR SO I HAVE TO HATE IT
