Who's to blame /his/? How could it of been avoided?
It seems to me the Russians can take a lot of the blame, their intervention and mobilization is mainly what forced Germany to mobilize, which in turn forced France to mobilize which eventually brought about the intervention of Britain. I assume this is a very simplistic view and may well be wrong, the fault for the war could well be attributed to the systems and institutions of the time more than any single nation or individual, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Also July Crisis/World War I thread.
Bad shit happens when Germany gets too powerful
>>927056
So the war was a necessary and guaranteed event due to Germany becoming too groß?
Didn't theRussians start to mobilize because Austria declared war at Serbia?
Which they did because Germany's blank check?
After Sarajevo, on July 26, 1914, Baron Ritter, Bavarian representative at the Holy See, wrote to his government: “The Pope approves of Austria’s harsh treatment of Serbia. He has no great opinion of the armies of Russia and France in the event of a war with Germany. The Cardinal Secretary of State does not see when Austria could make war if she does not decide to do so now….”
There, in true colours, is the Vicar of Christ, the gentle apostle of peace, the Holy Pontiff.One may say quite specifically that in 1914, the Roman Catholic Church started the series of hellish wars. But it was then that the usual tribute of blood which she has always taken from the peoples began to swell into a veritable torrent.
>>927092
Don't shitpost in this thread please.
>>927089
My understanding is the main reason Russia mobilized was because they mistakenly believed Austria-Hungary wanted to annex Serbia, which wasn't actually their stated aim. Basically Nicky and his government made a lot of fuck-ups.
>>927100
Isn't that quite a reasanoable belief though?
And what else should they have done, Serbia being their ally and all?
"blame" feels a bit loaded but most of the responsibility for the war starting and encompassing entire europe lies at austrian and german feet
>>927092
The Pope sanctioning Austria's declaration of war doesn't seem like a prominent cause for world war. I doubt the Pope's personal opinion held too much sway in 1914, it wasn't the Middle Ages anymore.
as for avoiding war, well, literally anything because that's silly althistory
but austria wanted their war with serbia, and the germans were kind of set on a reckoning with russia sooner or later so the crisis presented a decent opportunity
so whatever magic you want to weave to prevent the war has to do with removing austrian and german willingness to have a war
Another reason for World War One was to pay back Germany for its opposition to the papacy and the Jesuits in the 1860s and 1870s.
Germany was also the birthplace of the hated Lutherans. Twice during this time, Chancellor Otto von Bismarck led Germany (known as Prussia ) to military victories over the Jesuit-controlled countries of Austria in 1866 and France in 1870. Bismarck also outlawed the Jesuit order with the Kulturkampf law in 1872. These ‘crimes’ against Rome and the Jesuits had to be repaid in kind. Hence, hundreds of thousands of Germans were slain in the bloodbath of World War One.
>>927111
/x/ pls go
>>927111
no shitposting please
>>927110
Russia pressured Serbia to decline the ultimatum, which could of stopped war altogether. Although war between Germany and Russia was very likely at some point or another regardless, but the same could of been said of the Cold War I guess.
Maybe eventually something could of come along that removed the incentive for war? ie dismantling of empires, revolution, breakdown of alliances etc.
who knows?
>>927134
Have you read the ultimatum?
As I get it the Austrians would practically have turned Serbia into a puppet state with it though that may be wrong.
I've been watching these for a brief overview of the events that led up to war, are they /his/ recommended or am I watching biased/uninformed bullshit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyCmh9G1fpo&list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5Aq7g4bil7bnGi0A8gTsawu&index=6
>>927147
http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Austro-Hungarian_Ultimatum_to_Serbia_%28English_translation%29
yeah read it from here. It does seem like it almost forfeits their independence, but that's what you get for supporting terrorists against a much more powerful neighbor I suppose. Also, did they actually support terrorists or was that just made up by the Austrians?
>>927171
As I get it the minister if the army did, the rest of the Government did not.
>>927134
i am beginning to think this is a fairly well done bait thread, because in no universe is the "which could of stopped war altogether" part true, seeing as the austrians have designed the ultimatum with the exact purpose of it being rejected so that they could have their war, and have even reworded it to that end
that bit is not the only one which leads me to my suspicion, the "Russia pressured Serbia to decline the ultimatum" part is even more striking, seeing as that is literally the exact opposite of what tzar nicholas had done, i.e. he told them to accept it
>>927100
Do you know what couldn't have been done in a 48 hours timespan at the time?
If you guessed "answer properly to an ultimatum" you are correct.
>>927134
The ultimatum was a joke, it was made on purpose to be outrageous so that it could be rejected. At the time 48 hours weren't a enough for a state to process an efficient response.
>>927186
>bait thread
that hurts man ;_;
I never should of tried discussing alt history in /his/ tbqh.
>>927191
>>927199
So war between Austria and Serbia was basically assured, that doesn't necessarily mean there had to be a global war. But from what people are saying it does seem apparent Germany and Austria were the main aggressors.
Germany, it new the bureaucracy of Russia was ineffective so should have known they would have mobilised their while front to fight Austria Hungary, Germany should have just let it go and in exchange asked for Russia to give it part of Austria Hungarys conquered lands
Also Germany was the most ahead in terms of tech and tactics so should have known it could easily beat Russia
>>927186
I'm doing an essay on Nicholas II and agree with you so could I have a citation for him saying he wanted Serbia to accept it
>>927216
I doubt Germany would of just back down and "let it go" and betray their ally like that, that would most likely severely hurt their appearance among the other powers and possibly isolate them (no one wants to ally with a traitor).
>>927186
When I said Russia I didn't mean their ruler, I think it was one of their emissaries or something who pressured Serbia to resist, sorry for the miscommunication.
>>927205
Let's put it this way.
At the time of Serbia the war couldn't be stopped,because every nation in it had core (and I underline core) interest at risk internationally if it didn't follow through with their alliances.
Austria couldn't let go of what she perceived (on purpose or not) as a stain oh her prestige given by a little state.
Russia couldn't be il out from supporting Serbia without serious ripercussion on his status as a great power.
Germany couldn't let go the only ally they had.
France and England couldn't risk the German power (and that of the other members of the alliance) grow anymore..
>>927233
Russia wasn't interested at all with fighting Germany. Russian elite was germanophile. Many have connections with German royal houses or come from German aristocracy(Baltic).
Not even with fighting AH. Serbia was important but they don't want war.
All they want is to bully Ottomans.
On the other hand Russia start modernization and was in process to become real power.
Germany know that and they want to crush Russia and overtake it. They plan beat france but their main reward was Russia.
German HQ knows that they have advantage now with best tech, artillery and logistic and their times is now. Before Russia can reform.
That is why Germany push Austria to war against Serbia. Its so they smash Russia and get their riches.
There is also one conspiracy theory I hear.
Black Hand was connected to Serbian officers who was connected to militaristic faction in Russian Army who was sponsored by Rothschild.
The whole war was provoked so Europe colonial empires will weaken so USA can rise.
Still Wilhelm was a arrogant buffoon.
Wilhelm I was arrogant buffoon and
The Black hand was connected
>>927134
>which could of stopped war
>which could of
>could of
>of
I'm from Belgium and what is this
>Austria attacks nation which murdered a member of their dynasty
>Russia has secret pact with Serbia
>Germany has pact with Austria
>Britain and France just waiting for the chance to declare war
GERMANY YOU MONSTERS, GIVE REPARATIONS, SAY GOODBYE TO PRUSSIA
>Germany reclaims clay in Poland
>Britain and France declare war against Germany, but NOT against the Soviets, despite the Soviets also invading
Im not an expert, but could it be that the victor writes whatever he wants and that things arent black and white?
>>927270
Have you ever read a book about international relations? Ever?
>>927274
>Im not an expert
that much is obvious
>>927233
Willy II and Nicky II
They were in almost consrant telegram
Surely they could say, Germany you get all the lands with the Ethnic Germans in majority, Russia you get the lands with the Slav majorities
>>927257
Austria forcing war in the first place doesn't seem entirely justified or necessary though, as at the time many people didn't know or care that Franz Ferdinand had been assassinated. They could of pushed more lenient terms that the Serbs would of actually accepted, but instead they forced a war without foresight to what would come.
>>927274
I'm pretty sure Austria knew of a Serbian-Russian alliance, they wanted to quickly invade and defeat Serbia before Russia could interfere.
>>927274
Yeah but it's like how the hijackers for 9/11 were Saudi Arabian but we didn't go to war with Saudi Arabia did we
>>927282
Nice counter-argument. Well put. Expertly memed. You taught me a valuable lesson.
+1 (you)
>>927292
>They could of pushed more lenient terms that the Serbs would of actually accepted, but instead they forced a war without foresight to what would come.
So a war between 2 nations is not ok, unless the entente does it?
>>927301
because Saudi Arabia gives you oil, that is more important than justice or security.
>>927307
They start war that lead to their destruction.
Also destruction of 3 big monarchies in Europe.
Rise of Bolshevism.
Not mention slaughter of millions of people.
>>927301
>we
Yes. You did. The rest of the world rolled their eyes.
>>927317
Are you retarded, trolling, or Eastern European?
>>927307
>So a war between 2 nations is not ok, unless the entente does it?
When did I ever imply this? The whole reason Austria shouldn't of gone to war is to prevent the massive bloodbath that was the first world war. A war between two nations is fine, often necessary, but not when it will cause global war.
>>927322
Are you?
>>927326
So what youre saying is that austrias crime was not being able to predict the future.
>>927286
That sounds extremely implausible.
>>927328
So you are capable of forming a grammatically and linguistically correct sentence.
Interesting. Try that when attempting an "argument"
>>927326
>shouldnt "HAVE", not "OF"
>A war between two nations is fine, often necessary, but not when it will cause global war.
Austria didnt start shit with Russia.
>>927359
What part of "SECRET ALLIANCE" do you not understand?
>shouldof
>>927378
Secret didn't mean really secret, alliances where kind of difficult to hide, even if done with the utmost care. Words always come out about them.
>>927386
Time to stop posting. You have no idea what youre talking about.
>>927047
>Who's to blame /his/
Germans.
>>927431
Sounds familiar
>>927092
there was no pope in 1204
other than that, wonderful post SerbAnon
ehm, i meant Czar not Pope
autism intensifies
>>927870
Did they kill the kitty? :(
>>927872
Daily reminder, Tzargrad did not fall until 1480 something, other than that....
What people are forgetting is the great game. It had always been a (grand) strateigic russian goal to seize the bosphorus, they had gone to war with an alliance over this previously, so I find it acceptable that they would then choose to fight another alliance to try again.
Remember, the first allied amphibious attack was against Turkey in 1915, in concert with Russian attacks from Caucasus.
>>927359
>Yeah but they started shit with their little bro
No, Serbia started shit with Austria. Austria was justified in its desire to knock Serbia down a peg so peace could be restored.
>>928472
Ottomans had all the chances to avoid WWI, they were not in the pact until August. But German influence was strong.
>>928508
>No, Serbia started shit with Austria. Austria was justified in its desire to knock Serbia down a peg so peace could be restored.
And Austria started shit in 1908 annexing Bosnia.
