When would you say the muslim world completely stagnated and became completely set in its ways?
>>917573
They were going fine in most places until about fifty years ago when the Islamists started running the show. They just need a reformation and things will be back to normal.
>>917573
Most likely around the time the Mongols sacked their cities and salted their lands.
That said, I believe the fact they refused to ever accept usury basically prevented their culture from ever developing.
The Christians got around it in the middle ages but having the Jews handle the government loans, but eventually they just got over usury and developed by leaps and bounds economically in the 1700's.
Ergo. No Muslim nation can ever develop economically because they will not have usury and will always stagnate.
>>917576
In order for Muslims to reform to Western standards, they would need to stop being Muslims.
Or at least admit that the Quran is a nice story for children at bedtime but not moral guidance.
I'm mean Richard Dawkins is the best opponent of Islam (well he's anti-religion in general), but he correctly points out that even if you are a modern, the Quran specifically says that the punishment for Apostasy is death. Its not a mater of interpretation or reading between the lines.
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
So yeah... In order to reform, you would have to either say:
A. The Quran is not literal suggestion on how to live your life.
or
B. The Quran is not correct all the time.
Which when pressed I have no seen any moderate admit to.
>>917613
And by that... I wanted to add. That Christians aren't really Christians anymore by historical standards (except for maybe Eastern Orthodox which have anti-usury rules).
Basically they ignore the Bible now or at least the parts they don't like. I suppose to be fair, they won't admit they don't.
I suppose you will never CNN asking Ted Cruz why he is a Christian yet he ignores the usury rules by being a capitalist.
Basically, you need Muslims to stop being Muslims, because what Isis says isn't wrong. They have exact passages they are pointing to in their book.
What a reformation would have to do is basically get all of Islam to ignore rules in their book... Collectively. And then have no one calling them out on it in their faith.
This is a rather hard task. It would be more likely that all of them would just turn atheist one day. Which is not likely.
The problem with Islam is that the Quran was written more clearly than the Bible. It wasn't an issue of translation either. Its meaning is quite clear.
So until you get moderates to basically disavow the Quran as an authoritative source or get them to outright ignore passages (like Christians do) then there won't be a reformation.
The reason why Islamist's got so powerful in the 1970's wasn't because of anything outstanding. They simply were reading the actual passages in the Quran and telling their followers that they need to be following it.
>>917667
Dubai is only rich because they had oil which western capitalism was willing to raise capital to purchase.
Which if you think about it... Means that Muslims were benefiting indirectly from the benefits of usury.
Either way, Dubai will go back to being desert once middle eastern oil is made pointless.
Also I would not want to live there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates
Apostasy is a crime.
>>917597
>The Christians got around it in the middle ages
More like the late Renaissance. Before then Western Europe prospered economically with almost the same kinds of work arounds to loans on interest as the Medieval Muslims (who might have influenced that adoption).
>>917667
>wanting to live with dirty chinks
America, by far.
>america's declining guise
>a-any moment now
>muh fall of empires
>muh circular history
>china will rule the world!!!
The word for heresy in Islam, Bid‘ah, also means innovation and novelty. Do the math.
It's a process that goes from Al-Shafi‘i to Al Wahhab.
>>917613
>A. The Quran is not literal suggestion on how to live your life.
>B. The Quran is not correct all the time
It's not as serious as you might think. The above suppositions only became true, binding, and widely believed during the course of the 20th century. What it'll really take for Islamic Reformation isn't a rejection of scripture, but an understanding of the (rather late) historical context of much of their current beliefs and traditions beyond the scope of the Quran itself: civic culture and family traditions.
The trick to reformation isn't in tackling the religious scripture itself, it's in tackling the society that Muslims live in and ultimately shape their religion to fit.
Al-Ghazali
>>917573
Never?
The muslim part of the world is the one going through the most rapid change of any part of the world right now.
>>917573
The early 20th century, actually. Sure, it stagnated intellectually and politically at various times and places, but it only became "set in its ways" around the turn of the 20th century as new, political ideologies took over and forced religious scholarship and practice into an ever shrinking bubble, then became further paralyzed with the rise of Islamism and Wahhabi and Salafist revolutionary/restoration movements that came to politically and economically dominate the public sphere in the Middle East and among the Muslim diaspora abroad.
their stagnation started when the mongols burned down their archives and scattered/killed their scholars, the ottomans, who controlled the islamic world basically until 100 years ago, never rebuilt on this legacy as they were a culture based on warfare due to turkic roots
scientific improvements in the west are mainly due to their university traditions, this tradition has started being properly built again in the east in the last 100 years, and these countries are still suffering from extreme instability and brain-drain so it will take some time for them to build this tradition.
Everyone in this thread pretty much said it all. Also, the younger generation of Muslims are more conservative than their parents [!!!] and the loophole thinking is becoming more commonplace in their beliefs towards their religion. It's seriously stagnating their countries and their education and becoming a serious thread [rise in terrorism, strong Anti-West sentiments, ect]
This is a fucked up situation and will only get worse in the next 20 years.
>>917573
Never, you edgy fuck.
>>917713
this
Mongols. Not only did they destroy literally everything, they also left a huge psychological effect on the Muslims. People legitimately thought that the Mongols were a punishment send down by God for their sins.
Also, it's kind of hard to advance your society when all your fields are salted and burned, when two-thirds of your population are dead, and all of your rivers are clogged with rotting human corpses and piles of skulls.
IIRC in Persia's case their population did not reach pre-Mongol levels until the 20th century.
>>917573
>In this book, [the author] draws a connection between the decline of the "rational" theological school of Mu'tazila in favour of the rise of Ash'arism, which would become the mainstream Sunni theology, in the 10th century. In this the author sees an act of "intellectual suicide", the nucleus of the end of the Islamic Golden Age and the decline of Islamic civilization into a "dysfunctional culture based on a deformed theology" locked in determinism, occasionalism and ultimately fatalism.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8112525-the-closing-of-the-muslim-mind
>>917667
You know Dubai is like 1% ultra-wealthy and 99% basically slave labor, right?
>>917816
Altaic steppe warriors. Truly the n*ggers of civilized humanity.
>>917973
Steppe nomads are by definition not civilised, and you are allowed to write "nigger" on 4chan my plebbit-dwelling friend.
>>917967
That's not true. Many people there are middle-class families. It's not just wealthy or slave labour.
>>917973
I'm curious, is there anything that Turkic/Mongol people have been known to create?
Seems like all they do is destroy.
>>917573
Around the time of the Mongol conquests. It started before that but that really cemented it in place.
>>918068
wrong
>>917955
no
>>917865
study sociology, in times of economic hardship, people tend to become more conservative and religious
>>917738
Just because it is an ideology you don't agree with doesn't mean the Muslim world is "set it its ways". In fact Wahhabism and its spread across the world is quite baffling to sociologists
>>917654
Islamists got powerful in the 70's with the advent of OPEC and the Arab world flexing its economic muscles with oil as well as the Islamic revolution which was a backlash against the corrupt puppet government of the Shah
And no, I'm not a Muslim.
>>918079
>Just because it is an ideology you don't agree with
I wasn't talking about Wahhabism, I was talking about traditional jurists and mystic brotherhoods. Wahhabism is what followed afterwards and, like I clearly said, is a revolutionary/restoration movement.
>>917686
I'm pretty sure you mean arabic, and that's a supranational language more than a cultural one.
>>917816
except that Islamic scholars and scientists were sponsored under the Mongols and their successor states, and it's not as if the geopolitics of one region totally affected all of the Muslim world? literally who is Ibn Khaldun, Nasir ad-din Tusi, al-Kashi and many others?
I am not going to even touch on the Ottomans, although your touching on European university traditions is somewhat valid
>>918596
This thread is made up for /pol/tards who can't separate the Islamic world from the Arab one. OP and all the "it was the mongols" idiots are prime examples of this
>>917573
The moment they moved away from excelling in education. I kind of blame the Mongols for that.
Imagine what could have been of the human race if those scientists of old continued in their research. We could have been centuries ahead in terms of technology. Alas the books were burned, wars fought, and general ignorance prevailed. Islam places a huge emphasis on education, reading, writing and the like. Shame that modern day media, as well as the Taliban and ISIS ignore that aspect completely.
>>918055
Karakorum, the capital of Eurasia.
>>917576
Going fine?
They used to be the intellectual centre of the world , but for the last 300 years AT LEAST they've been a backwater.
While Europe had Newton , Leibniz and a string of brilliant French and German mathematicians and physicists after that laying the groundwork for the industrial revolution and utter world domination, who did the Arabs or Persians or Turks have?
why did they not have any ground-breaking mathematicians or physicists or engineers since the first half of the last millennium?
>>919691
Its already been explained, you are intentionally choosing to be ignorant and racist
>>917597
They still had loans, they just had to deal with 10% interest rates and no way to enforce them while Europe was sitting at a nice 3-5%
>>918617
Well a significant share of their work was translated into latin and European vernacular so we didn't lose it all.
They couldnt figure out that you cant transform lead into gold and after that revelation was made any and all physical contributions made by the Muzzies ceased. Fuck em'.
>>917573
The 11th century, when the Turks appeared on the scene.
>>917573
World war 1, when the Arabs got their land from Ottomans and discovered oil and enforcing Wahabism/Salafism, become an example to others to follow fundamentalism.
Also when Europe started messing around in Middle Eastern affairs.
>>920317
and then the collapse of the Ottomans as well as the absorption into the colonial empires.
>>917573
around the 10th/11th century
Islamic theology came into full circle then, and arab/magian world-feeling became de-facto ahistorical.
>>920139
If they were strong administrators why did their empire collapse in less than a hundred years with no vestiges of their rule being left?
>>922064
There are vestiges of their rule to this day, see the Mongol-dominated Kalmykia province of Russia.
Their empire collapsed because their succession system was absolutely retarded.
>>917667
I've been through a lot of shit places in the US.
Being broke and on the bottom is a hell of a lot better in the US than Dubai. Full Stop.
>>922064
the direct cause for the collapse of the empire itself was indeed due to succession crises and infighting. the main reason that the Il-khanate, which was arguably the most culturally rich Mongol state next to the Yuan, fell apart in 1335 was because the Il-khan left no successor after he died.
in terms of actual vestiges and impact leading on till this day, there is not that much culturally as compared to other empires like the Roman Empire, as the Mongol elites in their respective territories adopted local customs (not uniformly though, some nobles lingered on with nomadic customs and Tengri worship etc.). it's no brainer to understand that in the centuries immediately following Mongol rule, however, that the greatest source of legitimacy for Turko-Mongol rulers was linking one's lineage to Chingissid descent. beyond that, you can attribute a revival in Iranian identity directly to the tabula rasa of the Mongol conquests, which effectively destroyed the Arab hegemony in the Middle East. Neo-Confucianism flourished under the Yuan Dynasty, and the exam system founded in that period continued relatively unchanged through the Ming and the Qing until the 20th century.
it should also be stated the label "Mongol" is a misnomer in and of itself, as the Mongols i.e. originating from Mongolia were very few and far between. the overall composition of Mongol administration was very cosmopolitan, drawing in scholars and bureaucrats from other reaches of the empire.
>>922075
the Kalmyk example is a more recent example, as they were Oirats migrating from Western Mongolia into the Volga River basin in the 17th century. if you want to see a possible vestige of the Mongol Empire, you can have a look at the Hazara people of Afghanistan, who are generally understood to be the descendants of Mongol warbands who settled in the region
>>917573
Al-wahhab
>>917573
Muslims have only stagnated because they kill people that try to advance them, they utterly refuse to become scientifically literate due to their batshit insane beliefs.
>>917573
When the shiite infidels allied with the mongols and then again with the crusaders against islam.
>>919691
>why did they not have any ground-breaking mathematicians or physicists or engineers since the first half of the last millennium?
Aziz Sancar, a Turkish chemist just got a nobel this year duh.
>tfw napoleon tried to enlighten the mussies and they sided with the mamluks and ottomans instead of accepting freedom with open arms
Kek they got mad at him cause he let christians/jews have rights, they're a superstitious foolish lot the past hundred years.
Deserve living in their desert.
>>922333
>they got mad at him cause he let christians/jews have rights
Jewishlolisgettingrapedtodeathinrussianpogrom.jpg
>>922333
>they got mad at him cause he let christians/jews have rights
When Islahat reforms which gave christians and jews equal rights took place in Ottoman Empire, muzzies got mad again to Sultan claiming it is opressing muslims.
>>917667
Dubai is a shopping mall in an oven. Full of stupid laws and superstitions.
>>922291
It also has to do with the genetics of the region.
Islamic doctrine highly recommends cousin-fucking. Now that might be safe if you maybe do it once or twice (no lobster hands on any member of the British Royal family yet), but when you do it over the course of 40 generations you end up with a region where the mean IQ is around 80.
For reference, the IQ of Koko the gorilla is 86.
>>922344
No site on the Internet has a study of Kokomo the gorillas iq.
That shit is used just for stormfront meme.
>>917702
Ar you a Moslem, my friend?
>>917573
>When would you say the muslim world completely stagnated and became completely set in its ways?
Right at the start. The first line of the Koran says, basically: "This is all true. Don't ever change any of it"
Guaranteed recipe for social disaster on a grand scale. Especially given that the rules were made up by someone so socially inept he preferred living in a cave, and thought that palpitations and panic attacks were angels talking to him.
Schizophrenia is an extremely damaging condition. Especially when combined with psychopathy.
>>922745
If he was a muslim his reply would have been less friendly and reasoning
>>922907
>implying
Non-muslims are far more aggressive on this site.
Since Turks have been mentioned...
Thoughts on Ataturk?
>>917978
>middle class
That's what the 1% call their slaves to placate them.
>>918060
So much this
>>923909
The hero the turkish people needed t bh
Its sad to see how the Turkish people have been polluted with idiotic ideas again under Erdogan. The majority forgot what Ataturk thaught. If they keep on going this path Turkey will have a hard time with possible civil war as the West keeps funding those damned Kurds in the east of Turkey.
>>918055
This guy
>>917613
You shouldn't really quote Quran 4:89 on its own unless you're deliberately seeking to be intellectually dishonest. Quran 4:90 provides some fairly important mitigation to that verse.
>>923909
He did a remarkable job in the Turkish War of Independence. It took real skill to outmaneuver the different forces that were looking to partition Turkey after WW1. The fact that he got back so much Turkish clay with the dregs of the Ottoman army and a bit of diplomatic nous was incredible.
I have a mixed opinion of him as a ruler. A lot of his policies make sense in the context of the 1920s/30s but his policies towards the Kurds and suppression of Islamic orthodoxy created ticking time bombs that have since blown up in the secular republic's face. He also could've done a better job pressing Turkey's claims over Mosul and Kirkuk, something that would've transformed Turkey's fortunes had they got access to all that oil.
>>917865
Dunno where you stay m8 but nearly every Muslim in my city goes out drinking on Fridays and Saturdays with the lads and act like assimilated citzens
>>925167
I really need to read that fuckin book at some point.
>>917573
I'd say it started with the decline of the Ottoman Empire
>>925285
>Implying you should read just one version
>>925264
What city is that?
>>917573
1750-ish
>>925264
>drinking with the lads is acting like assimilated citizens
Sometimes your countries do need to burn
Read this shit. It's pretty good.
It's not for lack of trying that things didn't pan out.
>>917613
>In order for Muslims to reform to Western standards, they would need to stop being Muslims.
nah they just need to have a secular goverment
>>922216
I think there are more to that than Il-khan's succession. Yuan also completely fell apart by 1340s. People tend to discount climate change, but I believe climate change plays a huge role both in collapse of Mongol empire in China and Iran.
>>918168
No, I don't mean
>"heresy" in the Arabic language
but
>"heresy in Islam"
Same with "innovation in Islam."
>>929515
certainly, failed harvests and natural disasters had their parts to play, it's no coincidence that the fall of multiple Chinese dynasties coincided with mass butthurt due to flooding and poor crops. but the Il-khanate was a unique case in that there were powerful factions within the empire which all sought a piece of the pie, not because there was some unified resistance amongst the populace (although that quickly turned into a competition between different factions for the late Yuan-early Ming). that's why you had the Jalayirids, Sabadars, Injuids etc. that were regionally based lordships with their own claims to legitimacy. that quickly ended with the rise of Timur, obviously, but it was a powder keg waiting to burst with the dissolution of the royal family
