Anyone knows something about the people of the sea? their war against mycenean, hittite and egyptian empires marked the transition between bronze and iron age, but alternative historians believe they're involved in homer's odissey and that their history is very ancient.
>>895466
> but alternative historians believe they're involved in homer's odissey and that their history is very ancient.
Some writers linked the island of the Feaci to Sardinia because of a number of reasons, for instance Alcinous' royal palace's description shares many similarities with complex Nuraghi.
The three civilizations they targeted - Mycenean, Hittite and Egyptian - were undergoing some massive, catastrophic economic crises, most probably because of climate changes in the East Mediterranean coasts.
The raids by the Sea Peoples were a symptom, not the disease. They took advantage of these dying or near-dying cities.
Tales of successful raids, with plunderers boasting about their new, ill-gotten bling to corroborate them, would invite further raiders.
I'm of the mind that the Sea Peoples, while initially from some homeland, were mostly made up of large groups of dispossessed and otherwise hopeless people who took to piracy during the Bronze Age Collapse.
>>895466
This is a weird bit of history I've never really been able to grasp. The Sea Peoples are such a confused even in the middle of massive calamities that struck the great civilizations of the area that it's very difficult to equate who they were or what happened. In any event, they were raiders and conquerors fleeing their own lands and settling in what was effectively the old world of the day.
>>895466
They came from southern Anatolia and absolutely FUCKED everyone's shit up their asses.
>>895707
That would require to link their influx to some catastrophe which traces we can find somewhere(multiple places, perhaps?), and the problem may have been just economical depression that created massive poverty, which will be hard to trace.
>>895466
I always tend to think of them Civilization IV -type of barbarian spawns that generate in the "black/unexplored zones and mist" that come to fuck you up as long as you are not properly prepared
>>895466
my theory is that the odissey is based on the sea peoples invading greek lands.
is it possible that roman and greek historans identified them with the phoenicians? that could be why thier raids didn't involved Tyro, Sidon etc?
>>897625
Their Raids DID involve those areas, but Ugarit was the important city in the levant, Tyre and Sidon emerged later, Also greek historians knew notiong of that
I read somewhere (can't remember so can be unintentionally BSing) that the lessened trade that came with the Bronze Age collapse probably destroyed military powers that had no immediate access to tin, making the sea people all the more devastating.
>>898993
>>897625
Plus the phoenicians were already known as PHENKU by the Egyptians, the sea people tribes allhad different names and were emntioned several times, PHENKU are never mentioned among them.
They came from the NORTH (Southern Anatolia, where the LUKKA (lycians), one of the sea people tribes, were from) according to Egyptians and from the islands, most likely the agean islands, Crete and maybe Sardinia and Sicily too.
>>895466
They used boats
The best written sources we have come from Egypt, who survived the collapse (unlike unlike everywhere else from Greece to the Eastern Meditterranean coast.
The names of the Denyen, Ekwesh, Lukka, Peleset, Shekele, Sherden, Teresh, Tjeker and Weshesh are recorded by them.
Historians don't have a lot else to go on about the identity of the sea people, so they are making educated guesses based on linquistic extrapolation (Peleset = Philistine? Shekelesh Sicily? Sherdan is Sardinian? and so on.)
There is a consensus that they are collection of people from all over the Meditterranean and Aegean in any case. Etruscans, Minoans could be in there.
They could have been opportunistic marauders and looters who took advantage of political instability all over the Eastern Med. Instability caused by earthquakes (the Eastern Med cities are built on top of a faultline) famine, climate change, mass migrations, trade disruption, inflation etc etc.
>>895466
Kind of bullshit that Mycenae was called a culture while Hittites and Egyptians were called Empires. They should have said "Mycenae City-States" to be more accurate.
>>901334
And this was during the spread of iron making, which is less labour and resource intensive than Bronze making - no need for tin. Marauding groups could arm themselves more quickly.
I like the Civ 4 barbarian spawn comparison desu.
so could be a link between the nuragic civilization and these so called sherden?
>>901637
Yes.
>>901637
I think so personally after examining the problem for so long.
One of the reasons is that in one of the very first written documents found in Sardinia (and in the western mediterranean sea), the Nora stone, dated to 850-750 bc, the name SRDN appears, really similar to the SRDN of the Egyptian record and to the SRDNN mercenaries mentioned by the Ugaritic king.
>>895466
A little visual flavour for OP - detail of the Sherdan/Sherdana from the mortuary temple of Ramses III.The Sherden are distinguished by their horned helmets.
>>895466
Egyptian relief of the Sherden from Abu Simbel.
>>901780
>>901742
Nuragic warriors look kinda similar
about nuragic civilization: i believe that a people that can buil over 8000 monolitic structures (temples?castles?wells?astronomic miorrors?) is a huge deal, and it should be taken in more historical consideration that actually is (the nora stone is an enormou evidence).
about nuragics and sherden: there is no evidence
that they are the same people. sherden were very clever sailors. so why archeologists found no boat?
In Sardinia archeologists found many giant statues, the older statues in the mediterranean sea.
>>901930
They did found the sunken cargo of a Nuragic ship near the western coast of Sardinia, but not the relic itself.
Keep in mind that archeologists have only found very few relicts dating back to the late bronze age, so it isn't strange that we have found no entire Nuragic relicts yet.
Plus we have many evidences that point towards Nuragic navigation.
For starters, archeologists have found about 157 bronze models of Nuragic ships, scattered throughout Sardinia (mostly) but also throughout the Italian peninsula, mostly in Etruria, some Etrurian nobles were buried with these Nuragic ship models.
Other than that we have found late bronze age Nuragic pottery of purely domestic use throught all the Mediterranean, from the Lipari islands, Sicily, Crete and Cyprus (most of these are early discoveries too, for instance the pottery found in Cyprus which was found in a "sea people site", was discovered in 2010).
Another really important recent discovery was that of Nuragics cultivating melons since 1300 bc, before anyone else in Europe, melons at that time could have only been taken directly from Egypt or the Levant.
So yeah there is quite some evidence.
Even during the late iron age the Nuragics were still very active, for instance like 50% of the pottery found in Carthage's foundation layer was of Nuragic origins.
>>901993
Greek myths too talked about Sardinian pirates attacking and conquering Crete in ancient times, some of them were captured and burned alive by Talos, they laughed while dying thus the expression "Sardonic grin".
Even contemporary sources talk about Sardinian pirates, during Roman times Sardinian pirates from the eastern part of the island used to pillage Etruria, especially the area near Pisa.
>>901334
Not this anon but I would like to add one more contemporary possible source in Linear B that showed slave trade was starting to boom around the same time the Sea People came into play. I forgot the actual name of the Linear B tablet or slab, but you'll probably be able to Google it fairly easily (I can't be arsed).
>>901993
are these represented animals, living in sardinia? they look like antilopes
>>902047
We know from the Amarna letters and from Egyptian documents that some of the sea peoples were used as mercenaries, mainly the Sherden.
From the Amarna letters we know that the Ugaritic king mentioned them several times as guards.
From the Egyptian documents we know that the Sherden were the royal guards of Ramses II and helped him as mercenaries during the battle of Kadesh against the hittities.
About their origins the Egyptian only mention this:
An inscription by Ramesses II on a stele from Tanis which recorded the Sherden pirates' raid and subsequent defeat, speaks of the constant threat which they posed to Egypt's Mediterranean coasts:
the unruly Sherden whom no one had ever known how to combat, they came boldly sailing in their warships from the midst of the sea, none being able to withstand them.[7]
>>902081
No, they don't live in Sardinia.
Many exotic animals are represented in the Nuragic bronzes, antilopes, monkeys, even a crocodile and some men that look like negroid people.
It's a mystery.
>>901993
thanks, i've always thought so, but it's hard to find someone in line with these theory that can explain me the evidence. so sherden/nuragics (?) were not also pirates taking advantage of other empires (or city states) dififcult times. they were a big, military, building and trade active civilization, or am i wrong?
I like to think that the eternal steppe tribe (maybe the first proto mongol/turkic wave) invaded the aryan caucasus causing massive, roman barbarian invasion style, displacement of tribes and kingdoms creating a deadly domino effect.
The only proof we could get of this is if there is any kind of registry (legends and artifacts) of raider attacks and paralel displacement in what is today iran and india from the north
>>902095
>>902081
>>902095
wtf!!! academics know that?
>>895466
>Assyria dodged that bullet by little
>>902105
Yes, I guess, but the Nuragics are considered really obscure, hopefuly the discovery of the statues of monte prama will lead more archeologists to investigate the Nuragic civilization.
>>902143
WUZ
>>902096
> they were a big, military, building and trade active civilization, or am i wrong?
You're not wrong, military wise we know that the first military expeditions led by the Carthaginians against Sardinians all failed, Malco, king of Carthage lost almost hiw whole army against the Sardinians according to Roman writers and when he returned in Carthage he was executed.
Building wise, the Nuragic civilization was really advanced compared to the rest of the western Mediterranean.
Nuraghi have been labeled the most advanced form of architecture of their time in the western med by many archeologists and scholars, Bartolini for instance said so, an American scholar labeled Nuraghe Santu Antine as the most advanced "dry stone" building of ancient history because of its long corridors over two floors.
Nuraghi aren't the only impressive Nuragic structures, we have water well temples, for instance the water well temple of Santa Cristina (dated to at least 1000 bc) was labeled as the most advanced astronomic monument of ancient Europe by Arnold Lebeuf: http://www.academia.edu/2336031/The_nuragic_well_of_Santa_Cristina_Paulilatino_Oristano_Sardinia._A_verification_of_the_astronomical_hypothesis
>>901358
Mycenae tribes
>>902199
do you know anything about elymians? can you recommend me something to read about them and/or sherden?
Lost tribe of Israel? Eh? Ehhhh?
>>904361
I know that some connect them to the Sicels, who might have been the Shekelesh, one of the sea people tribes, they were mentioned both by the Egyptians and the Ugaritics, they seem to be the ones responsible for the destruction of Ugarit.
However, that's not the only hypothesis, alternatively the Shekelsh might have come from Sagalassos in Southern Anatolia, since the city existed back then as it was mentioned by the Hittities.
But, it has to been noted that the city didn't have access to the sea at the time and didn't have a considerable size.
What I find odd is that they didn't even settle the lands they raided, apart from possibly the philistines. They just fucked shit up half the world away and went back home.
>>908602
The Sherden were given lands both in Egypt and I think somewhere in the Levant too by the Pharaoh.
They are still mentioned by Egyptian sources untill 900-800 bc when they disappear.
>>908491
>Shekelesh
>Sicels
>Siculi
>Szekelys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kelys
Sea peoples confirmed for Hungarians.
>>908664
Funnily enough they're called Sicels in Italian like the Sicels from Sicily but it's obviously just a coincidence.
The sea peoples were probably Mycenaean raiders and pirates or kings and princes who went and aggressively colonized western Asia Minor. This would explain why there were so many Greek speaking populations there during the dark ages period, and in the classical era.
There is also some basic misconception that the bronze age collapse was simultaneous with the collapse of the Mycenean palatial states with the Doric invasion.
>"Reconciliation of all these different theories seems out of the question ... the current state of our knowledge of the Greek dialects can accommodate Indo-Europeans entering Greece at any time between 2200 and 1600 BC to emerge later as Greek speakers." -JP Mallory
The above quote somewhat converges with my own theory, the Myceneans were not really freinds with each other, but constantly fought one another, except when they fought a foreign civilization like the Hittites or Egypt, in which they would have likely formed large coalitions like in the fictionalized telling of the quite historical Trojan war.
I think this would explain the devastation of the Peloponnese. Quite simply another Mycenaean warlord went conquered and wrecked everything in his path there. I think this is confirmed by the fact that Dorians were a Greek speaking people, and like with the myth of the Heracleides they were most probably led by princes/warlords of Mycenaean origin.
So a piratical raid for loot that wrecked and destroyed settlements in Egypt by Mycenaean pirates doesn't seem all that unlikely. I think the philistine hypothesis doesn't make sense, because the Philistines were not a nautical civilization like the Mycenaean were , and the Sardinian hypothesis is too speculative since the Sardinians did not have the material wealth the Mycenaeans had.
Anyway this is just my hypothesis, and it makes sense to me seeing how depictions of Mycenaean armies look so much like the sea peoples.
Just my 2 cents.
>>908887
>Since the Sardinians didn't have the material wealth the Myceneans had
Not really, look at pic related, Sardinia had the biggest copper mines in Europe along with Spain and the biggest silver mines too and the biggest number of oxhide ingots was found in Sardinia.
>because the Philistines were not a nautical civilization like the Mycenaean were
Says who?
Also what do you mean by Philistine hypothesis?
We do know that the peleset, a sea people tribe, were not native to Palestine and settled there during the late bronze age and we know that their material culture was foreign to Palestine and they were most likely Indo-Europeans, plus the Hittitie sources speak of the Peleset kingdom in Southern Anatolia.
Plus you might wanna look at what the typical attire of the Myceneans was, the one in your pic isn't typical at all in the first place and doesn't even matches the sea peoples' typical attire hornes aside.
Anyway I do believe that the Myceneans were among the sea people, but we do know that people who were not Myceneans, like the Lycians in South western Anatolia, were involved too.
>>908962
Author of 1177 B.C. believes they were peoples migrating via sea from the Western Mediterranean to the Eastern Mediterranean who were then joined in the east by impoverished people who took up raiding, imho it's the most logical theory
>>908962
Papyrus Harris I details the achievements of the reign of Ramesses III. In the brief description of the outcome of the battles in Year 8 is the description of the fate of some of the conjectured Sea Peoples. Ramesses tells us that, having brought the prisoners to Egypt, he "settled them in strongholds, bound in my name. Numerous were their classes, hundreds of thousands strong. I taxed them all, in clothing and grain from the storehouses and granaries each year." Some scholars suggest it is likely that these "strongholds" were fortified towns in southern Canaan, which would eventually become the five cities (the Pentapolis) of the Philistines.[43] Israel Finkelstein has suggested that there may be a period of 25–50 years after the sacking of these cities and their reoccupation by the Philistines. It is quite possible that for the initial period of time, the Philistines were housed in Egypt, only subsequently late in the troubled end of the reign of Ramesses III would they have been allowed to settle Philistia.[citation needed]
The "Peleset" appear in four different texts from the time of the New Kingdom.[40] Two of these, the inscriptions at Medinet Habu and the Rhetorical Stela at Deir al-Medinah, are dated to the time of the reign of Ramesses III (1186–1155 BC).[40] Another was composed in the period immediately following the death of Ramesses III (Papyrus Harris I).[40] The fourth, the Onomasticon of Amenope, is dated to some time between the end of the 12th or early 11th century BC.[40]
>>908986
The Harris Papyrus which was found in a tomb at Medinet Habu also recalls Ramesses III's battles with the Sea Peoples, declaring that the Peleset were "reduced to ashes." The Papyrus Harris I, records how the defeated foe were brought in captivity to Egypt and settled in fortresses.[47] The Harris papyrus can be interpreted in two ways: either the captives were settled in Egypt and the rest of the Philistines/Sea Peoples carved out a territory for themselves in Canaan, or else it was Ramesses himself who settled the Sea Peoples (mainly Philistines) in Canaan as mercenaries.[48] Egyptian strongholds in Canaan are also mentioned, including a temple dedicated to Amun, which some scholars place in Gaza; however, the lack of detail indicating the precise location of these strongholds means that it is unknown what impact these had, if any, on Philistine settlement along the coast.[46]
>>901930
>civilization
>they lived in villages
Okay then.
>>908994
Myceneans citadels were basically villages too based on their size and they're still called a civilization.
>>908962
>>because the Philistines were not a nautical civilization like the Mycenaean were
>Says who?
The Anglo-Saxons are seldom thought of as a naval people, but they arrived in Britain as pirates / raiders much as the Philistines arrived in Canaan.
>>908994
http://lanuovasardegna.gelocal.it/regione/2015/06/04/news/mont-e-prama-il-georadar-svela-la-citta-dei-giganti-1.11550067?refresh_ce
There are some large settlements that could be considered cities or at least proto cities in Nuragic Sardinia, for instance that of Monte Prama (where the statues were found) that of Sant'Imbenia with the oldest market place and square in the western mediterranean and that of Seruci.
>>909009
Yes, the philistines arrived in Canaan around the same time the Peleset, one of the many sea people tribes, coming from the north, the sea, all lands, invaded Egypt and settled in Canaan, so I don't think it's far fetched to assume the Philistines were the Peleset, thus part of the sea people.
Maybe they didn't sail as much as the Myceneans, but they were still part of the confederation of the sea people.
He was arguing that since they weren't as focused on the sea as the Myceneans they couldn't have been one of the sea people but that's wrong as there's tons of evidence linking them to the Peleset.
Anyway if I recall correctly the Peleset msotly came by chariots (another evidence that they were from North-Eastern Anatolia) so while they wrecked havoc with the sea people they were never called Peleset of the sea like say, the Shekelesh or the Sherden, Shekelesh or Ekwesh who are the proper "sea people".
>>909699
The fact that the Tell es-Safi/Gath horned altar has only two horns may have to do with the cultural origins of the Philistines. As Louise Hitchcock, senior staff member of the Tell es-Safi/Gath excavations, has suggested, the very motif of the horned altar in the Levant may have been influenced by earlier Minoan “horns of consecration,” symbolic representations of the horns of the sacred bull in Minoan culture. In fact, there is an altar from the Late Bronze Age site of Myrtous Pigadhes in Cyprus that also has only two horns. The unique horned altar from Tell es-Safi/Gath, the earliest stone altar ever found from the land of the Philistines, may be another indication of the Aegean influences on early Philistine culture and quite possibly a hint to their origins.
