Since most of /his/ is clueless and ignorant about this region in general, i'd thought a general would be good to discuss the history of the region but of each past and present history of individual states aswell.
Also for future reference, "balkan" does not limit itself strictly to it's physical- geographical boundaries. Countries such as Romania, Moldova and Slovenia are also considered balkan because of common cultural traits in regards to customs, cuisine and such.
Having said that, let the discussions begin
Can Cyprus into Balkan tho?
Those guys are Greeks and they have to belong somewhere
>>88462
No, they're not Greek and we don't want them since we've had enough problems caused by them
>>88419
conquered by romans
conquered by ottomans and mayars
conquered by soviets
on the path to get conquered by germans
that's their history in a nutshell
>>88484
over ruled
they're greek and i want them
>Countries such as Romania, Moldova and Slovenia are also considered balkan because of common cultural traits in regards to customs, cuisine and such.
>Slovenia
Living in Yugoslavia doesn't count, mate.
Just look at that clusterfuck of states
It was better when it was ruled in an orderly fashion by the ottomans.
>>88419
There isnt much to talk about.
The Greek city states and Hellenism, the Roman Empire and later the Eastern Roman Empire, and the Ottoman Empire.
Everything else either isnt remarkable, or there isnt enough historical evidence in writing by reliable journalists to make proper discussion about it.
And I imagine you created this thread to talk about either Dacia, or Bulgaria, or Serbia, since it stinks of /int/ and patriotism.
Please understand that the reason people dont talk about these is because there arent enough facts to talk about, and the threads quickly degenerate to insults and arguing whos entirely speculative theory is superior, and citing communist history revisionist sources as proof.
Anyways, I'll throw my dice.
Does any of you have the proper Roman names for the mountain passes in the Balkan/Haemus mountains chain?
They all have funny slav names now, or are called after the slav name for the nearby villages.
>>88484
Das rude senpai.
We are good guys desu.
And so are Cypriots
>>88488
>that's their history in a nutshell
For someone who's clueless in history, i suppose you can say it is.
>>88498
>living in yugoslavia doesn't count, mate
it does
>>88511
explain
>>88505
they've always been slav name
alexander of macedonia was slavic
>>88527
Do you have a single reliable primary historical source to confirm this? If so, do share it.
>>88507
>>88517
Flags are an /int/ thing. If you want international shitflinging go there. This is for history.
For example, is Macedonia more culturally greek or more culturally bulgarian?
>>88527
albanians are not slavic so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
>>88540
>while Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes."In another account of the conversation, Alexander found the philosopher looking attentively at a pile of human bones. Diogenes explained, "I am searching for the bones of your father but cannot distinguish them from those of a slave."
also a nation of less than 2 million people can't be wrong
>>88513
Yugoslavia lasted from 1918 to 1941 as a kingdom and from 1945 to 1991 as a socialist federation. I fail to see how that's more significant than the connection Slovenes had with Central Europe for more than a millenia.
>>88532
wew sorry lad, just thought it was funny about the map
>>88568
>central europe
what is this thing you are talking about, there's eastern europe (ex soviet, poor) and western europe (capitalist history, mostly rich)
memes should stay in int
>>88561
I don't know enough about the Macedonian dispute so I don't want to spout memes instead of answers.
Plus I don't come here to fling shit at anyone.
I'm here for the stormtards and their we wuz Greek/Romanz and shit
>>88527
The Slavic people settled in the areas surrounding Byzantium during the 6th and 7th centuries. That's long, long after Alexander.
>>88601
Central Europe is real.
>>88566
But this quote has nothing to do with the question asked, and you are just passive-aggressively insulting people based on their nationality, as fueled by your own nationalism in a thread on a history board on a japanese cartoon and comic based anonymous image sharing website.
Stop doing that. It serves no purpose and only ensures that a few more random people will dislike your own nationality for being butthurt enough for a representative of theirs, yourself, to do this.
Go to /int/, where this is tolerated. It shouldnt be tolerated here, and I am happy to see the police already deleting a few posts.
Now, about those Roman mountain pass names. I am still looking, if anyone knows.
>>88561
Central Macedonia is now Greek.
North Macedonia is now Slavic/Bulgarian.
Ancient Macedonia was a Greek kingdom situated in both central and northern Macedonia
Their capital was in central Macedonia.
Any questions?
>>88604
>I don't know
Present day Macedonia claims ancestral heritage from Alexander the Great. The people of Macedonia today speak a bulgarian dialect
So the question, are they more close to greek culture or to bulgarian culture
What do we know about pre roman balkans? What do we know about dacia?
those are the periods I know the least of
>>88628
it's just one of the many imaginary boundary definitions that exist so it's as real as the presumptions you base it upon.
probably recent anti-russian and pro-german public opinion if I would harass a guess, right?
The most recent real boundary was the iron curtain, but you carefully omit that from your selective reading of history
>>88674
Both Bulgaria and Greece are close to each other culturally, because they share the Ottoman Empire Balkan culture in food, architecture, expressions, vices and virtues.
Modern citizens of the Macedonian Republic are culturally closer to Bulgaria, but its not a stretch to say they are also close to Greece.
As I said, they are all alike. Consider this, Bulgarians have spent as much time being "Bulgarians" as they have being "Ottomans".
>>88693
The Holy Roman Empire was Central European. There was no Iron curtan back then.
>>88693
hazard*
>>88690
Dacia was inhabited by the dacians. An indo-european people related to the thracians south of the danube.
After it got conquered by rome, the present romanian people started to form
>Turkish Culture
>>88690
>What do we know about pre roman balkans?
South of the Danube, they were culturally Greek. Thracians were somewhat different, as they didnt respect writing whatsoever.
>>88419
literally who? no seriously you guys have been irrelevant since ancient greece
>>88739
>South of the Danube, they were culturally Greek.
Also, i'll add that because of the major cultural influence, historians created the imaginary jirecek line, which shows the area of the balkans mainly inspired by latin and greek culture.
>>88419
Serbian and Bulgarian nations are the only relevant there.
>>88762
>Byzantine/East Roman Empire
>Bulgarian Empire
>Serbian Empire
>irrelevant
>>88762
Hello Abdullah.
>>88782
It was obvious b8 senpai
Don't respond to it
>>88777
Why do you say that?
>>88776
But latin culture is inspired by greek culture.
>>88782
>and of them
>relevant
>>88708
>the holy roman empire
I'm guessing the holy roman empire, and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't exist in living memory, in the modern era, for many generations of people.
I'd say that's insignificant influence for modern day boundaries that are affecting living people, living in the modern era, with living memories and recent historical occurences (relatively speaking) that shaped their lives, the lives of their parents and their grandparents.
>>88419
Slovenia doesn't share much culture with the balkans to be honest.
Yodeling and Lederhosen isn't exactly balkan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqn1J1kgIPs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h_3iZml28U
>>88782
The Roman Empire was relevant. Stop using these silly Eastern/Byzantine names, it was the Roman Empire. Everything else is just enlightenment germenics trying to justify calling their kingdom Holy roman Empire.
Bulgaria was a regional power at times, irrelevant at others. Its not important for history outside of stopping the first Arab invasion and somewhat influencing the Roman-Persian conflict by forcing the Roman Empire to divide their resources.
Serbia was mostly irrelevant at all points, and was almost never actually called Serbia. Just because a slavic kingdom included modern Serbia doesnt mean its Serbia.
>>88828
>totally not recognizeable Slovenian from /int/
>>88708
>The Holy Roman Empire
We should really quit calling it that, and just name it Federation Of Germanic States or some such.
>>88828
Greece and Croatia are decisively not balkan as well, at least their non deep-continental parts.
I'd suggest a visit to any of their islands to witness their architecture and culture there.
Mediterranean I would call it.
>>88828
thats just cause they want to be asutrians so bad they retcooned their folk culture over time
used to be slovenci looked pretty much like a mountain version of zagorci/međimurci, still is in most lowland places
if it wasnt for that whole romanticism buisness you could all just faced the fact youre the same shit as all of us, just living in the alps
>>88869
>Croatia
>not Balkans
>SLOVENIA IS NOT BALKAAAAAN
>>88888
checked
>>88892
slovenia is central european
"balkan" doesn't exist. it's just a term made up for turk rape babies to have some kind of community
>>88888
Gotta agree with this. It's one of the central names people think of when they think of a Balkan state or of Balkanization.
>>88888
very nice
>>88888
DUBious conclusion, especially considering I excluded the continental parts.
being almost completely surrounded by sea every day of your life for as far back as your people existed, shapes your culture via commerce, cosmopolitanism, cuisine etc, much more than any long dead empire would.
>>88807
The only two things that connect Slovenes to the rest of the Balkans is communism, not language, culture or history.
>>89019
islamic gommunism?
>>89037
No, that's just Bosnia.
>>89019
I'd disagree. If not balkan (geographically half their country is), eastern european.
>>89019
Didn't know that Slovenes speak German.
>>89056
Didn't know Slovenes speak Serbian.
>>89068
most the balkans don't
>>89083
most of balkans do speak serbian
>>89019
well you are a south slavic people speaking a south slavic language and generaly sharing all the etnologic aspects as most other slavs in the vicinity
the fact some of you wear lederhosen cant save you
>>89083
>most the balkans don't
I know a muslim Bosnian guy and he said to me that most of you can understand each other pretty well.
>>89091
I'd suggest you refrain from such bold claims without a source
>>89097
there are greeks, albanians, bulgarians, romanians, turks in the balkans, yugoslavs are a minority
>>89124
>yugoslavs are a minority
Are you retarded?
>>89131
are you?
Albanians are probably the most mysterious people to me.
Where did they come from? How did they suddenly pop in the balkans and their very first mention was only in the 12th century when the probably would have formed much earlier than that
Are they really descendants of local illyrian tribes or did they come from someplace else into modern Albania?
Anyone know more of this subject?
>>89170
Albanians are probably different people to Illyrians.
Also another large demographic arrived mysteriously some time during Ottoman period - the Roma tribe.
>>89170
albaniens migrated from caucas in 12th century
>>89097
People in Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia speak same language.
Slovenians are Slavs too, but their language is separate and not fully intelligible by those mentioned above.
Bulgarians and Macedonians speak same Slavic language, distinct from above. Most notably they lack cases which all other Slavic languages have.
Albanians,Romanians and Greeks speak distinct languages.
>>89170
>Are they really descendants of local illyrian tribes
illyrians probably form their population substrate like much of the yugoslavs
They cannot claim to be their descendants anymore than anyone else in the west balkans, especially considering that no linguistic link of any significance can be established
>>89095
If anything, we are close to Kajkavian Croatians. Dalmatians, Bosnians, Serbs, Bolgarians? I don't think so. Different religion, different language, different culture. Since our ancestors settled in the Alps in the 6-7th century, we were far more connected to West Slavs, if anything. Only with the introduction of nationalism and pan-Slavism did our relationship with other South Slavs begin; before that, they were part of the Turkish raiders (except for the Uskoks, who were a small minority and seen as foreigners).
>>89200
i agree with some parts but with some i don't
macedonians speak the same language as serbs, croats, montenegrians, bosnains (serbian language)
>>89170
No one knows.
Albanians (and few historians) claim they are descendants of Illyrian people.
I personally have trouble believing that, because:
1) Illyrians were Latinized, and Illyrian language was pretty much dead by 3rd century. By logic of things, they should speak some version of Latin, not Albanian.
2) Albanian is first mentioned in 13th century. It's very weird that Byzantine, Norman or Slavic records make no mention of a distinct language in the region that was ruled by their states.
Byzantines even mentioned small Slavic tribes in Balkans by name, I really find it hard to see how they could've missed people speaking strange language on what was their territory.
>>89233
Dude I'm a fucking Serb, Macedonians don't speak our language, their language is (almost) same as Bulgarian.
Also, you can't call the language ''Serbian''. Croats speak it too.
In Yugoslavia it was called Serbo-Croatian.
>>89239
it's a propaganda that albanians are descendants of illyrian people because of the kosovo kosovo independence
>>88419
i kinda dig that romania can be honorary balkan, but how the fuck is moldova
>>89263
That propaganda started much earlier though, in 19th century.
>>89258
can macedonians understand serbian?
>>89267
Nope.
Croats are distinct people/tribe that came to Balkans in same period as Serbs.
You're thinking of Muslim Bosnians, who call themselves Bosniaks, and who are converted Serbs and Croats.
Also, Montenegrins are historically ethnically Serb.
>worth mentioning that slav means people that speak a common language which was founded of course by the macedonian's
What??
>>89267
can you please go back to int
>>89290
Plenty of them can due to history in Yugoslavia and media exposure.
But Macedonian/Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian are not same languages.
I mean M/B is pretty intelligible, especially when read, but it's a different language.
Like I said, they lack cases.
>>89276
i never said when it started, albanians wanted their liberty since they were migrated here
>>89266
Romania is balkan
Moldova is Romania
Therefor Moldova is balkan.
>>89311
i have friends from macedononia who aren't older than 20 and they can understand me properly
>>89267
its actually the opposite
serbs in bosnia = converted croatian catholics
during the ottoman occupation in bosnia, orthodox population was privileged and it made no sense for them to turn to catholicism
just look at this irony: serbian nationalist that sprays your bullshit has a surname "šešelj" which is found only in croatia, reporters even found the place and date when his family turned and become serbian
>>89321
romania and hungary are not balkan
>>89321
isnt danube somewhat a clear balkan - world border
>>89334
if šešelj is a croatian surname, milanovic is serbian
>>89359
it is
>>89343
Have you ever been to Romania? It's culture is turbobalkan to the core
>>89359
no, it's not in the peninsular definition
>>89379
i'm not talking about new ages
>>89381
it is xD
>>89329
Yes, because of what I said.
>>89334
Some Serbs in Bosnia are convert Croats, some are migrants, some were there for long time.
There's also plenty of Croats who were Orthodox few centuries ago, but converted to Catholicism.
You need to drop the idea that you can historically trace who was Croat or Serb from medieval period in certain area.
In border region (Bosnia), shit was chaotic in that aspect so you can't know that for sure.
>>89398
You asked why Romania is balkan. Well, because it shares balkan culture.
>>89401
but it's not
I suggest cracking open any thesaurus
>>89364
thats great logic
here's a vid where even serbian politicians make fun of croat-hating šešelj for havinga croatian surname
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4ax5gts124
>>89440
Croatian ultranationalist is literally named Srb.
Once again, that shit is totally fucking irrelevant.
Serbs and Croats are Slavs who always shared similar culture and language, and who lived next to each other.
Borders don't indicate if someone was Serb or Croat. In fact, peasantry didn't give a fuck, we're talking about medieval period, Serbs and Croat ''nation'' was practically limited to nobles, and not even them had modern sense of belonging to a nation.
You can talk about Serbs and Croats from 19th century onward when Serb=Orthodox and Croat=Catholic came to be.
Not before that.
>>89425
lol look
>>89452
>Croatia didn't even exist
Croatia existed as independent nation in early medieval period, then became distinct part of Hungarian Kingdom with autonomy, and remained as such until 1918.
Dude, go back to /int/ if you want to fling shit with Croats and Muslims, this is a history board, and common popular myths are not history.
>>89407
>so you can't know that for sure.
if you have some history knowledge and common sense, you actually can
>biggest ottoman enemy were the habsburgs, probably biggest catholics in europe
>catherine the great, after beating turks by the black sea ( i dont know the names of the battles but you can search for the aftermath) got her right for protection of the orthodox population under turkey (which bosnia was part of)
now use your logic, at that time only catholics were 2nd class citizens in turkey, and only they had a reason to convert to orthodoxy, and many of them did
>>89488
The burden of proof lies with you my friend, prove to me that Croatia existed before Serbia.
>>89479
You didn't read the definition of the word peninsula
just posted a random map like I do now, or like OP did
I suggest you return to /int/ because map spamming is their sport
>>89452
seriously, go back to /int/
croatia became a kingdom in 925. when serbs were basically byzantine servants, and on top of that your "nation" has basically no true identity, serbian cousine/folklore/music is turkish, your flag is taken from byzantine, etc.
>>89519
tiny map for tiny slovenes
>>89506
You're discussing totally different subject, and I agree with that.
I'm just telling you, you can't know for sure who was Croat and who was Serb in those times, unless we're speaking about where Serbs and Croats generally lived.
In border region like Bosnia, there aren't enough records and nature of ''nation'' in that time denies you the ability to accurately put Serbs and Croats at certain locations.
That's my point.
>>89515
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_%28925%E2%80%931102%29
Dude, you're literally discussing the basics of history. Not even our history books in high school and elementary deny Croatia existed, in fact we learn about Croatian Kingdom.
Just go back to /int/.
>>89479
Look here, moron. Its a land mass surrounded by large bodies of water on three sides.
>>89515
you really need proofs? jesus
>croatian first kingdom: 925.
>croatian coat of arms dates from 10th century, or even before date
>word "croat" is a autenthic name, unlike "serb" that is a derived word coming from latin "servus", its written in de administranto imperio
also there is no "serbia" untill some 12.th century, there were south slavic states like raška and duklja, but never serbia and croatian "dux" dates from early 9th century
>>89540
You're just as bad as him though, so I suggest you go back to /int/ too.
Serb doesn't come from serf, nor were Serbs ever ''slaves of Roman emperor''.
There were some Slavs who fought for Byzantines and who were later settled in Anatolia and shit like that.
Stop shitflinging and go back to /int/ if you don't know shit about history outside of your nationalist myths.
>by the way, explain Sorbs in Lusatia, who had no contact with Byzantines
>>89573
>South Slavic states
While they were South Slavic no doubt, they were also Serb (both Raška and Duklja).
And they came later, before them Serb Principality existed.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Serbia_%28medieval%29
>>89559
Look here, moron. Its a land mass surrounded by large bodies of water on three sides.
>>89601
Are you pretending to be retarded here? If you have already realized you are wrong and are just shitpoting to play it out as a joke, you should let us know.
>>89576
>Serb doesn't come from serf
and where does it come from? its actually a believed fact, its not bias, and its written by a byzantine emperor konstantine VII (i think) in D.A.I. So i even have a fucking medievel book and chapter to hold my arguments, you're the one that obviously crawled from /int/ and should go back there
>>89591
just search some more before you post, that principality isn't even considered serbian, hell they even call the ruling dinasty "proto-serbian" because they know its all bullshit
>>89601
>being so assblasted that he is considered balkan by everyone culturally AND geographically
rofl
>>89638
Explain Sorbs in Lusatia. One ''fucking medieval book'' is no proof. Byzantines wrote a lot of shit, D.A.I isn't THAT reliable.
Also, how was Serb Principality not Serbian?
Dude, you might hate it but you're on same level as this guy above who wrote shit like ''Croatia never existed''.
Croatian myths about Serbs=Serb myths about Croats. Absolute fucking bullshit. That's not history.
Congratulations /his/bollah, you've become the first Emperor of the new Balkan Empire.
What do you do to bring prosperity?
>>89678
Smuggled jeans from Trieste.
>>88690
Illyrians.
That feel when instead of Yugoslavia there should be Romania and instead of Romania some eastern slavs
Funny how things turn out
>>89672
whats there to explain? first metioning of "sorbs" was in the 7th century, and thats the period about which konstantine is saying serbs first came to the balkan and got their name
also, how do you explain serbia/serbs being mentioned as servia/serfs in almost every document and map untill late 19th century
did you hear about ilija grašanin? he is the biggest history revisionist in the balkans, he's idea about history is not about writting the truth but writting things that would make a nation stronger, and your stupid /int/ ass is falling for it
>>89711
>wanting Kosovo v2.0
>>89678
Build highways. On the left of the highway, a pasture and a farm. On the right of the highway, a church and a park.
So how did Venice ever gain control of Corfu and like half of Greece anyway?
>>89738
balkan empire is in NATO, we'll just brand them insurgent terrorists like turks do with kurds and noone will care
>>89743
read about the 4th crusade
>>89672
>Dude, you might hate it but you're on same level as this guy above who wrote shit like ''Croatia never existed''.
he's not, i have a backing for all of my "theories", you're just an average wiki historian and you should stop generalizing you twat
>>89743
>greekcunts massacres catholics in konstantinopol
>crusaders btfo them
>bawwww bad catholics destroyed """"eastern roman empire""""" D:<<<<
not saying that venece wasnt the biggest jew that had its fingers in the balkans tho
>>89731
This.
We would have finally have cultural contact with our romance speaking brothers
But slavs got in the way and basicly isolated us from the rest of civilized Europe
>>89732
You fail to understand what I'm implying.
There's Slavic nation called Sorbs which lives in Lusatia, in Eastern Germany. They had no contact with Byzantines.
Yet they still call themselves Serbs (Serby). Now why would some tribe which had no contact with Byzantines call themselves ''slaves''? Do you see how retarded your claim is?
It's obvious Serb is a word of Slavic origin.
>Servia
That's just how it was written in past. B became V in foreign transliteration.
Also, why would Greeks (and Greek was in use in 7th century ERE) give Latin name? Why not use Greek word for ''serfs''?
Also, why the fuck would Serbs in Balkans used ''slaves'' as their name? Doesn't that appear retarded to you?
>Ilija Garašanin
Of course I did and he claimed much shit but so are you.
You're some autist who can't comprehend that being Croatian nationalist and spouting Croatian myths is absolutely same as being Serb nationalist and spouting Serb myths.
Grow up.
>>89743
>Orthodox/Catholic shitposting reaching new levels of memery
>Catholics remove Orthodox Churches in Italy
>Orthodox remove Catholic happy merchants from Constantinople, might have overdone it admittedly
>Catholics proceed to Crusade against Orthodox East Roman Empire as retaliation
>merchants happy
>>89757
And which were your theories?
''Croatia never existed'' or ''Serbs are slaves and I know because of one apocryphal story from D.A.I.''?
Both are false. And believe it or not, reading Wikipedia which often uses foreign sources is much superior to reading works of local ''historians''.
what's the difference between the byzantine empire and the roman empire? history idiot here
>>88419
>Nationalistic Shitflinging: The Thread
>>89843
There is no difference, the term "Byzantine" came centuries after the dissolution of the Roman Empire by historians to mark the east part that was kinda different to the west in terms of religion and cultures.
Europe's usual invader tramplefest. Whenever someone felt like stirring up shit they crossed over the Balkans, no wonder everything there is so screwed up
>>89872
Because you can invade Europe from the west.
>>89796
>Orthodox remove Catholic happy merchants from Constantinople, might have overdone it admittedly
Are you implying this was because of the curches business? Because you'd be wrong, latin merchants were offed because they had cornered the market and the empire had a worse credit situation towards them than modern Greece toward Germany.
>>89843
Byzantine Empire-later European name for Eastern Roman Empire. It's citizens considered themselves Roman and their rulers saw themselves as successors of Roman emperors.
It's just a matter of terminology, Eastern Roman Empire=Byzantine Empire.
>>89843
roman empire was split administratively
the western part was quickly overrun by goths and other tribes
they later established their own kingdoms and tried to usurp the title of the roman emperor from the still very alive eastern part, thus calling it (derogatorily) "empire of the greek" and "byzantine empire"
>>88527
monkeydonian detected, slavs came around way, WAY later, good old Alex was from Hellenic Macedon
>>89843
(Western)Roman empire - Catholics. Used latin.
(Eastern)Byzantine empire - Orthodox. Used greek.
But they never called themselves that way. Rome never died with it's western half, since the capital was moved to constantinople long before that.
>>89891
>the western part was quickly overrun by goths and other tribes
Don't forget to mention that the east routinely bribed off invading barbarians with gold and assistance in traversing their land towards the west.
>>89900
Alexander was half Illyrian and half Macedonian.
>>89778
it's acknowledged by a lot of Byzantists that the 'massacre of the Latin Quarter' was not nearly as severe as it's portrayed in the West. It would constantly be used to demand reparations; primarily from Venice.
I'd recommend reading the segment in book 'Byzantium and Venice."
>>89788
>There's Slavic nation called Sorbs which lives in Lusatia, in Eastern Germany. They had no contact with Byzantines.
yea, they're called "sorbs", were called by franks and just like the most slavic tribes were given a name, unlike the "hrvat" for ex.
if you think byzantine and frankish empire had no connection then you're even dumber then i thought
>That's just how it was written in past. B became V in foreign transliteration.
oh, so konstantine called serbs serves and explained where the name comes from AND serbia was always mentioned under the name "servia" because of some translation error. God what a mind melting coincidence
>Also, why would Greeks (and Greek was in use in 7th century ERE) give Latin name? Why not use Greek word for ''serfs''?
latin was the official language for elites in byzantinium untill the end of the heraclus reign. You know what it says in DAI about when and who gave the serbs name they have? Heraclus.
>Also, why the fuck would Serbs in Balkans used ''slaves'' as their name? Doesn't that appear retarded to you?
you're a great historian my friend
tell me, why would serbs use byzantinium flag even tho they were their vassals in early midages? why would they use turkish customs when they were under their boot for 500 years? And most importantly, why the fuck are you asking me you dumb fuck
anyhow im done with you, you're just some retarded /int/ poster that thinks he found his safe heaven in this newly opened board where everyone will cite wikipedia and play kukulele together on a guitar
pepe posting would suit you way more, because far as i've seen you have no historical knowledge what so ever, you just bash every other unpopular opinion by asking them retarded questions, so fuck off
>>88419
The Balkans are the result of hundreds of years of Ottoman rule and supplantation of Islam.
Which will be Europe's future.
>>89678
>balkan general
>all thread is people arguing who are part of this imaginary community and contesting arbitrary borders
fun thread, never make it again tho
>>89884
Didn't mean to imply that this happened because of the churches.
>>89900
No they didn't, macedonian slavs are indigenous to the central balkan area while northern greeks are indigenous to anatolia
>>89857
You can't have a thread about the balkans without the obligatory serbo-croatian myth spouting in abysmal english.
God, I hate my countrymen so much.
South Slavic nationalism was a mistake.
>>89917
>the 'massacre of the Latin Quarter' was not nearly as severe as it's portrayed in the West
The point was not its severity, it was its periodic repetition (5-7 times in the 12th century alone), when you murder family members of 3 generations of Doges you should kind of expect them to answer in kind.
>>89918
>anyhow im done with you, you're just some retarded /int/ poster that thinks he found his safe heaven in this newly opened board where everyone will cite wikipedia and play kukulele together on a guitar
>pepe posting would suit you way more, because far as i've seen you have no historical knowledge what so ever, you just bash every other unpopular opinion by asking them retarded questions, so fuck off
This projection
>>89925
wat
>>89815
you keep equalizing me with some idiot that basically only said "croatia never existed", which is like me saying your mom is a stupid whore that shouldve swallowed your stupid selfe, when everyone knows its untrue and meant to trigger idiots like you, am i correct?
>>89925
>while northern greeks are indigenous to anatolia
Sure, after they descended to Greece from planet ayy lmaoes with UFOs
>>89938
great response, but you forgot a reaction pic
>>89930
Yeah, I know. I feel stupid for thinking I'd see a more civilized discussion here, but it's just croato-serbian crap (missing bulgarians, really) and outsiders saying "lol nobody cares, lol better off under ottomans" like usual.
>>89925
>macedonian slavs are indigenous to the central balkan area
>>89969
TRI MORETA
>>89925
Guys, can't we just settle to the fact that:
Serbs and Croats more or less share the same language
Each of them had their own medieval entities
Each of them used these medieval entities and culture in the 20th century for the purpose of nation-building and creating a patriotic spirit based on heritage and such.
And they are used today to outline their differences now that they are independent.
But if they were a single country these differences wouldn't exist and their commonalities would be stressed more, and not their differences
Deal?
>>89843
The ERE was heavily greek from the start but it wasn't until heraclius that it became THE official language, in fact most of the things that made the empire different from the RE stem from Heraclius' reforms and the reaction to the muslim conquests, see the theme system
>>89994
No, everyone is serbian.
>>89925
>muh three gorillion refugees from the greek civil war nvr 4got still got the papers
just go back to /balk/ already sashko
>>89918
>were given a name
No Slavic tribe was ''given a name'', unless you count some Slavs adopting regional name (that came much later ie. Macedonians), or case of Bulgarians and Russians. But that was adoption of ruling group's name, not taking foreign name for yourself.
Byzantine and Frankish empire had connection, but I don't see what does it have to do with this story. You're talking about Byzantine sources.
>melting coincidence
Constantine was talking about something from 7th century, in 10th century. He wasn't direct witness of those events.
Besides, Serbs were enemies of Byzantine Empire, of course he would write bad shit about Serbs.
>Latin was the official language
True, but not by the end of reign of Heraclius. Not like this matters, I just pointed out to one problem, however it's debatable, you're right.
>why would serbs use byzantinium flag
What does that have to do with anything? Serbian and Byzantine nobility married frequently in those times, people adopted other symbols, etc. etc.
I fail to see what does it have to do with anything, no one ever said Byzantine culture didn't influence Serb culture a lot.
>Turkish customs
Actually very few ''Turkish'' customs exist in Balkans, it's mostly general Muslim or Byzantine customs. Turks themselves adopted a lot of Byzantine culture. And customs stuck during centuries of Ottoman rule, what's the problem here? Croats also had Ottoman influence.
>you're just some retarded /int/ poster
Nope, that's you, given your nationalist narrative. And I visited /ex-yu/, I know exactly which guy you are.
Go back there so you can fling shit with your autistic buddies, this is not the board for that.
>>88419
>slovenia part of the balkans
you were fucked from the start, op
>>89994
I agree, nationalism ruined the balkans in general as much as ottoman neglect did
>>90029
Balkan is a state of mind, and you guys are in it for better or for worse.
>>90029
slovenia is actually nordic
>>90029
This thread is for discussion of balkan history, not what your special snowflake theory of what is the balkans and what is not.
>>89843
>what's the difference between the byzantine empire and the roman empire?
No difference. The Byzantine meme was created by the Austrians so they can call their federation Roman Empire.
During the existence of the Eastern Roman Empire, they just called themselves Romans and nobody else ever thought of calling them otherwise.
What would the Europe be like if the Kingdom of Yugoslavia had never disintegrated?
>>88864
>rename an empire because we don't agree with the name they gave themselves
Is this a legitimate post?
>>90084
Well, the HRE did the same to the Roman Empire.
>>90091
kek, not even alboshits are this dumb
>>88561
>>88674
The area that postures as Macedonia today has historically been a void with no noteworthy kingdom or culture to build a modern national foundation on. It happened almost by accident that it was incorporated into the vaguely defined Macedonian region due to serving as some kind of Macedonian hinterland (Macedonia Inferior/Secondary as the Romans put it) after Macedon started extending its influence. The more moderate contemporary Macedonian realizes this, that the problem is mostly that they have nothing else to call themselves.
The "real Macedonia" is indeed Greek and located in Greece. They also have the most continuity with Macedonian and Greek civilization. The funny thing is that Alexander's conquests homogenized the Greek world more than anything else, killing the dialects and introducing Koine which has covered the Greek world ever since. History didn't end in 500 BC as the contemporary Macedonians like to pretend it did, and Macedonia being called barbaric by elitist Greeks doesn't make them Macedonians.
With that said, a Macedonian culture or identity hasn't existed in millennia neither on the Greek side or Slavic side. It is purely a regional construction. There were waves of motives for a separate Macedonian state: an innocent attempt to carve out a multicultural state between the warring Balkan states in the 19th-20th century; as a Bulgarian vassal after failing to annex outright (compare Dobrujan Internal Revolutionary Organization, Thracian Internal Revolutionary Organization); an attempt to fuse "Macedonian" nationalism/expansionism with communism under a federal Yugoslavia against capitalist Greece; as a way to dissipate Bulgarian identity. The motives are many.
>>90091
those were less than half the greeks of macedonia
what is your point
>>90041
We are familiar with the Balkanite state of mind, mostly because of the Yugoslav colonization of Slovenia after WW2.
>>90084
Country names are forgeries and there were enough retards in the past who created shit they wanted to gain some legitimacy but in reality it didn't make any sense.
According to your logic, then Russia is the legitimate successor of the Eastern Roman Empire.
>>89994
They were a single country and the differences outweighed the similarities to the point of Serbia invading.
Cultural heritage is totally different, Croatia was influenced by Catholicism, Italy, Austria and Hungary while Serbia had little to none of those. National literature of Croatia is completely unrelated to Serbia in any way until the late 19th century and that's almost irrelevant. There was and is some since the 30s, but it's not important.
>>90091
Just accept you're the Belgium/Uruguay of the Balkans.
Tell me about the ancient Thracians, /his/
why were they so fucked up
>>90079
Western powers would probably have a hard time coping with the fact that there's another country in the south that's not Italy and that has potential military power equal to France
>>90124
>Russia is the legitimate successor of the Eastern Roman Empire
Certainly Russians like to think that, they have the two-headed eagle as their imperial symbol and they've always striven for control over the Straits.
>>90106
underrated post
>>90137
What was so fucked up about the Thracians? They liked war, wine, women, gold, and horses.
>>90137
>persians invaded
>greeks invaded
>macedons invaded
>romans invaded
>huns invaded
>goths invaded
>romans invaded
>slavs invaded
>bulgars invaded
>magyars invaded
>russians invaded
>romans invaded
>turks invaded
>russians invaded
Gee, I dont know.
>>88419
Redpill me on the Bulgarian Empire.
>>90173
It lasted for like 50 years in the TRI MORETA configuration.
>>90173
Pure cancer, literally a smaller version of the Ottoman Empire.
>>90173
They were quite a blight on the ERE, still they were a worthy opponent under great leadership that lasted way too soon unfortunately.
>>90173
The land north of the Danube was never under proper control.
The rest is rightful clay.
>>90173
>Solnograd
I'm pretty sure Mozart's birth place doesn't lie this far to the east.
I live in FYROM
AMA about what they teach us about history in schools
>>90188
>a blight on the ERE
In the end, it fell to Asian forces, which is a shame. Bulgarians slowly became closer and closer culturally to the populations to the South of them, first by adopting Christianity, and then by dynastic marriages.
>>90163
>horses
In what way?
>>90091
>Prove to me greek "macedonians" lived in the area for more than 100 years
here, I can do 150 years before
>>90106
good structured post
>>90149
Well not only that.
The original argument for Russia being the successor of the roman empire is the fact that some russian prince (his name is slipping my mind right now) married the last empress of the eastern roman empire, when the ottoman invasions were in full swing and Constantinople's collapse was almost close.
So they kinda cheated their way into claiming that by some archaric arbitrary rules of marriage.
>>90222
this makes me cry every time
>>90226
wut, the last emperor was a Greek with a Serbian mother.
Why do the Romanians have a romance language instead of a Slavic one just like everyone else?
>>90173
At least half of it was inhabited by romanians and some of their leaders were of Romanian descent.
Romanian historiographers call it "The romanian-bulgarian Tsarsdom"
>>90251
they like their boypussi, just like Romans did
>>90251
Because they reformed it in the 19th century. Before that, they spoke a mix between a Romanic and Slavic language.
>>90251
they used to write in cyrillic, but then decided to be edgemasters
>>90202
Come on guys I'm open to questions
>>90212
Cyril and Methodius were from Thessaloniki, which despite popular belief, has never been Slavic or even owned by Slavs.
>>90222
>dem arab enclaves around marmara
ROFL
>>90251
Because roman blood floods through our veins.
And we were masters at dodging invaders
>>90269
They didn't invent cyrillic, it was clement of ohrid, cyril and methodius are irrelevant.
>>90269
Cyril and Methodius made the Glagolitic alphabet, which was pure shit. Their pupils, which were bulgarians, made the Cyrillic alphabet, and named it after their teacher Cyril.
>>90251
Because of romanian communism and a language reform.
>>90270
>greek macedonian insecure about his identity has to meme
are you sure you're not bulgarian yorgos?
>>90251
nationalism
>>90242
Found it. This is what i was talking about.
>Stirrings of this sentiment began during the reign of Ivan III of Russia who had married Sophia Paleologue.
>Sophia was a niece of Constantine XI, the last Byzantine emperor. By the rules and laws of inheritance followed by most European monarchies of the time, Ivan could claim that he and his offspring were heirs of the fallen Empire, but the Roman traditions of the empire had never recognized automatic inheritance of the Imperial office.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome#Russian_claims
>>90269
Ciryl and Methodius did not create Cyrillic, it was created by their students under the patronage of Bulgarian kings.
Cyrillic to the left, Glagolitic to the right.
>>90308
That would imply we call ourselves Cyrillics now.
>>90308
We call ourselves macedonians or bulgarian, if you don't like it come change it
>>90334
I thought you call yourselves fyromese?
>>90262
>>90296
>>90305
The question was why we speak a romance language and not slavic one
Not why we got rid of slavic influences on our language.
Take any document from medieval times and apart from cyrillic and some slavic words, the grammar is still abiding by romance language rules.
>>90327
nigga the text on the right is exactly like the text on the left if you cross your eyes
>>90251
>>90251
>Why do the Romanians have a romance language instead of a Slavic one just like everyone else?
http://www.magtudin.org/Ruman%203.htm
A good writting about old Vlach language: (before the romanian languege reforms of 18-19th century, and "radical latinization" of modern romanian language) Interestingly, Romanian language is full with phrases and words from modern (19th century) French or the modern Italian languages, which simply did not exist in the era original ancient latin speaking populations.
The ecclesiastical language of the Wallachians indicates a strong connection with Macedonia. The Wallachian language shows a strong Slav influence and shows a relationship with the Albanian language. A second group of linguists was involved in researching the Rumanian (Wallachian) language: M. Gaster, G. Moldovan, Sextil Puscariu, C. Weigand, G. Murnu and others. This group took into consideration the information from the Byzantine Chronicles, studied the geographical locations where the language was spoken, and attempted to reconstruct the origins of the Rumanian language. (Török, p. 205) After reading the researches of these scientists, Sándor Török concludes that there is no trace of Dacian influence in the Rumanian language. There is also no trace of influence from any of the other peoples who lived in Transylvania after the withdrawal of the Romans, the Huns, Goths, Gepidae, Avars, Pechenegs and Cumans. If these languages did not have any influence on the Rumanian language, we can be sure that this is proof that at that time there were no Wallachian settlers in Transylvania.
tl;dr Macedonia is the rightful descendant of the Roman Empire and Romanians are dirty slavs.
>>90327
Glagolitic looks like shit, only an autistic greek could create that
>>90354
sorry I misread the question.
>>90212
>only where the hellinistic period and slavic literacy started, no biggie
The Hellenistic period is an arbitrarily defined era post-Alexander for when Hellenism spread eastwards which I don't see any relation to today's Northern Macedonia.
Slavic literacy, while appreciated, isn't exactly a national foundation, m8, and especially not "Macedonian".
>>90327
Glagolitic looks much better, left looks too much like greek
>>90392
More like dumb, stupid and retarded.
This has nothing to do with the original question.
>>89293
Hmm, how peculiar, I wonder why they speak THE SAME FUCKING LANGUAGE as the Serbs if they're so fucking special.
You guys seem to be under the influence of politicians directly responsible for the balkanization of Yugoslavia.
The country was a politically correct compromise between peoples that insist on calling themselves separate names when in fact they are the same South Slavic people.
Slovene language is distinct and as the anon >>89231 nicely explained it's due to their exposure or lack thereof to south Slavic peoples such as catholic, orthodox and muslim Yugos that are one and the same (Croats, Serbs and '''''''bosniaks'''''''').
I seriously wonder why Yugoslav Commies weren't more aggressive in the conversion to the Yugoslav ethnicity and language and wonder why they kept calling it Serbo-Croatian/ Croato-Serbian.
Minor note; I live in Bosnia, the melting pot of these three '''''''''ethnicities'''''''''' and can in sound mind attest: WE UNDERSTAND EACHOTHER 99,99% of the time (the differences are smaller than those between US and British English).
>>90380
wat
>>90410
More like your personal dislike of the truth and facts is clouding your judgement and making you dismiss valid responses.
>>90397
Or an era when all the greek city states were united. You said the area didn't matter, not referencing any "national foundations". It's bulgarian, 19th century becomes macedonian, you don't have to put it in quotes to emphasize your point foreigner.
>>90441
What exactly was that quote suppose to prove, again?
>>90426
Yugoslavia was not Soviet nor was it a Soviet satellite state.
>>90474
Could ex-Yu be the true Central Europe?
>>89293
>Croats are distinct people/tribe that came to Balkans in same period as Serbs.
You are half right.
Croats are a distinct tribe that came at the same time as the Sorbs. The Sorbs arent the Serbs.
The Serbs are a confederacy of a bunch of tribes, including the Sorbs.
The tribes that make up the Serbs didnt arrive all at the same time. They were instead united by the bulgar khans trying to relocate them to live in their land, and their refusal.
>>90474
he probably meant ex communist
are you really trying to create a designation by arguing semantics
do you hate russia that much
>>90511
Serbia appears as Rashka in its earliest incarnations.
>>90490
Central Europe is pretty well defined. The East-West is a meme as it's purely a left over of the cold war and is geographically speaking retarded
>>90511
>Croats are a distinct tribe that came at the same time as the Sorbs. The Sorbs arent the Serbs.
>The Serbs are a confederacy of a bunch of tribes, including the Sorbs.
That's what literally every balkan slavs are, a confederacy of tribes that eventually molded under a single name while assimilating the more numerous native populations already living there.
>>90544
>a left over of the cold war
I assure you the cold war was very real and it shaped the history of modern europe
>>90539
Raska was more like a prototype for Serbia, but not actually Serbia under another name. Just like Diocleia wasnt Serbia, for example.
>>90544
>Central Europe is pretty well defined.
Germany and switzerland bundled up with poland
are you this deluded igor?
>>90563
Are you stupid though? The East-West is a left over of the Cold war, no one stated the cold war didn't exist, and is purely a political split that has nothing to do with Geography aside from one political camp being in the east and the other in the west.
