As a southerner, I understand that the Civil War was mostly about slavery. But I've noticed many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today, or that the south should have won the war. Why is that?
>>871481
There are a lot of people who are white supremacists or find the personal freedoms of White people to be above those of blacks.
Romanticising rebels?
>>871492
Nobody has ever thought that except for cartoon characters.
>>871481
>As a southerner, I understand that the Civil War was mostly about slavery. But I've noticed many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today, or that the south should have won the war. Why is that?
Western world is about to collapse due to demographic trends and "resettlements." It's not surprise people look to prior historical events as to which was the "turning point." I don't believe the confederacy could have won, nor do I support slavery, but this is part of the rationale
.
>>871481
There's multiple books written on this, OP, and I can point you in the direction if you like. Most of it has to do with the romanticisation of the CSA following the (supposed) failures of Reconstruction. As well as this, several motivated groups lobbied for Lost Cause history to be placed in schoolbooks, and threw up monuments to fallen Confederate soldiers in the South basically wherever they could find. Add to this the Dunning School, which basically said that b/c Reconstruction was so bad segregation was justified, and the Southern strategy playing off white fears of the Civil Rights Movement, and you have a more or less continuous line of Confederate sympathising through to this day.
>>871481
>as a failed Yankee scum
ftfy
>>871496
Nobody has ever held the personal freedoms of White people to be above those of blacks? Please, tell me more.
>>871481
It would have weakened the strength of the USA as a whole, and therefor american influence on the world would have been much less, probably would have been a positive thing.
See >> 871755
>>871492
That doesn't correlate to supremacism at all.
It was somewhat of a unique culture in the US at the time if Gone With the Wind has told me anything.
>>871615
>muh southern strategy
Like clockwork... Do lefties just keep a list of buzzwords that they try to inject into every argument?
>>871481
Putting aside anything to do with race, slavery, or morality, I suspect it's a point of pride. In a lot of people's eyes, the Confederates represented the spirit of the South. Something to hold over those nefarious yankees and their confounded industrial development.
Personally, I wouldn't be proud of the Confederacy because the Confederacy fucking lost, but I can see why other people might hold some admiration for it.
>>873195
They also redefine words to fit their cognitive dissonance. It's disgusting, all leftists should be locked up for life
>>871481
>I've noticed many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today
Where and when have you noticed these people?
>>873195
>hurr, yur a librul
Not that anon, but that's a pretty fucking weak comeback. That guy posted a well-constructed argument and the best you can do is accuse him of holding a political position you find distasteful. That's something I would expect from a Tumblrite, not a /his/torian.
God, I hate fagolas like you who feel the need to inject modern politics into a board that's supposed to be about things that aren't modern. Fucking stay on Tumblr or /pol/ or wherever you assholes congregate.
>>871494
This is probably the most correct one desu.
I personally don't understand people who say the Civil War didn't have anything to do with slavery when its leaders expressly claimed that their country was founded on the principles of the superiority of the white man over black.
Fuck you, Andrew Johnson. I don't know if it was due to your incompetence or racism, but the South wouldn't still be throwing a bitchfit if you had actually reconstructed anything.
>>871481
International supporters are by-and-large just people who hate the modern US and wish we'd remained a farmer's republic instead of the most powerful and influential country in existence.
>>873195
At any point in time you can address what I said, friend. Do people doubt that there was a Southern Strategy now?
>>873229
desu I'm pretty sympathetic to this argument. So much of the literature points to people clinging onto this idea of the "Old South" as idyllic, and slave-holding, sure, but the slaves were happy to be slaves. A lot of literature demonised Reconstruction as "proof" blacks were better off as slaves
You see this a lot with people trying to make a "New South" focused on industrialisation, which quickly subsumes the idea of the old South in order to gain traction
There is no international support of the former CSA. OP just made it up and now all you fools are coming up with explanations for nothing.
Why weren't all the niggers deported to Africa after emancipation? That's what most poor white people wanted anyway, guess the elites betrayed them once again.
>>873340
You've never been to Eastern Europe, they L-O-V-E the CSA there.
>>873345
I'm calling bullshit.
>>873352
Not that guy but David Blight says, the battle flag is pretty much the secondmost famous symbol of America worldwide. I don't think people in EE necessarily equate it with the CSA, just a vague Americanism
>>873352
Not bullshit at all.
>>871481
same reason people romanticize nazi germany, because both of their ideals more or less line up.
>>873430
CSA and Nazi Germany have literally nothing in common aside from racism, and even then German racism was something very different from Southern racism.
The Confederacy advocacy group is a mish-mash of white supremacists who wish the damn niggers were still in their place, libertarian extremists who view the triumph of the Union as the downfall of freedom in America (slavery is a-OK, though), and people who just like a good old fashioned revolution regardless of the reasons for revolution.
>>873450
>nothing in common
>both societies that relied on slave labor to enable them to continue participating in a conflict
>both societies defined by a rigid, moralizing upper class with a distinct ideology
>both societies sent people from all levels of society to die for their ideology
>both societies relentlessly attacked their opponents for various 'degenerate' attributes
>>873494
>both societies defined by a rigid, moralizing upper class with a distinct ideology
Congratulations, you just described every political system in the history of man.
>>873342
Jews.
>>873494
This is so fucking vague you could apply it to virtually half of the countries that ever existed.
>>873515
So? Doesn't mean they aren't legitimate parallels, especially them both being fundamentally dependent on slave labor
>>873522
Germany wasn't dependent on slave labor until like 1942.
Was there ever a chance at Reconstruction ever succeeding?
>>873494
Nazi racism was genocidal. CSA racism was paternalistic and a business tactic.
>>873430
>let's not look into nazi germany and the CSA in any more detail than "they were racist meanies"
why is this the mainstream view, if racism is so terrible wouldn't you want to find out exactly why these things happened
>>873536
Right, but in the later stages of the war it absolutely was, and the CSA's reliance on slave labor similarly expanded throughout the war. They both have very similar trajectories.
>>873543
No, it was basically Northern colonization of the South. White Southerners are basically the dindus of white people so naturally they resisted all attempts to modernize their society.
>>873545
Yeah, that's why I didn't imply that their racial worldviews were similar, because they were not. I've grown up in Richmond VA and spent most of my college career studying Nazi Germany, so I'm definitely acutely aware of the divergences
>>871481
The States lost their protection from the Federal Government. Lincoln destroyed the right for States to make their own laws. The biggest reason this sucks ass is because it makes trial and error state by state less effective. Before hand, a state govt could look at a policy at the next state over and say "hey, that's a good idea" or more importantly decide "Wow, those guys are faggots and we will never make that mistake"
>>873543
If the radical reconstructionists had gotten their way and imposed genuine change on the south, instead of knuckling under like a bunch of bitchmade retards in 1877, I think it could have succeeded.
>>871481
>But I've noticed many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today
Where on earth did you find these people. Unless you actively search for these obscure sub-cultures you won't find them.
>>873562
Got a good source for that? Everything I've read paints the opposite picture, that their anxiety about the end of slavery increased and they turned to desperate measures like training slaves to work at Tredegar or even bringing them into the army, but actual manumission wasn't on the table.
>>873567
Come to Virginia, dude, we have tons of neo-confederates.
>>873574
I think he was talking about the 'international' bit.
I can see how European neonazis, South Africans, and UKIP types might like the CSA
>>873551
Wow it's almost like governments will use whatever labor is at their disposal when they are on the losing side of a total war.
What an enlightening and useful comparison you've brought up, it's clear now that the CSA was just like Nazi Germany, as well as every other government that's ever resorted to forced labor during a war.
>>873574
In Virginia neo-confederates makes sense though because Virginia seceded over the federal government's response to the attack on Ft Sumter, rather than simply for the sake of promoting slavery like South Carolina did.
>>873627
Well, many fence-sitters and unionists supported secession after Lincoln mobilized the army post-Sumpter, but Virginians were arguably more aware than anyone else that our economy was deeply bound up in slavery. We certainly went to war to promote racial slavery and most Virginians knew that, and were comfortable with it.
Good book about this is "Why Confederates Fought".
>>873615
Many nations didn't resort to forced labor, including the United States in both the Civil War and World War II, so I'm not sure why you think this is such a gotcha. I
Furthermore, I'm not saying the CSA was "just like" Nazi germany since it is insane to pretend the similarities between two states nearly 100 years apart and in different parts of the world would have anything but interpretative/surface level similarities, which is precisely what I'm asserting, you fucking mook.
>>871481
Because everyone there is either a nigger or as dumb as a nigger.
And you're ruining my country.
You wanted out, you got out, and for some reason we took you back- so you could ruin our Teen pregnancy rates, have the worst education, suck a shitload of federal grants away, and field the most Republican congressmen of any group.
We should have burned your country to the ground and left you.
>>873640
What the fuck kind of nonsense post is this? You're all butthurt about southern conservatism and the presence of "niggers" in the south?
>>873637
Conscription is a type of forced labor
>>873645
Not butthurt about nig nogs, they didn't have any say in the matter. It's the white dipshits in the south that took people with average IQs 20 points lower and stockpiled them in their country.
Why I'm 'butthurt' about southern Conservatism:
We, for all intents and purposes, ARE 2 different nations and have been since the split. With the exceptions of Virginia recently and Florida possibly, every southern state makes itself into everything the rest of the world hates about America, whereas the North actually has areas of culture and infrastructure. Look at basically ANY map, you'll see that the North is better in nearly every way.
So stupid that they call corporate monopolies "Freedom".
Black people =/= niggers.
Black people that get jobs and live peacefully and harmlessly are not niggers.
>>873195
How about you go chill with your brethren at /pol/?
>hurr i dont agree wti him better call him a leftist
Or how about instead you actually contribute something useful to the conversation instead of underhanded insults?
>>873273
this
>>873688
Don't fucking respond, idiot. I know I'm being hypocritical but just ignore obvious /pol/bait, unless you actually enjoy being bombarded by infographs and memes.
>>873298
Yep, Johnson royally fucked up reconstruction. He was somehow both too harsh where he should have been fair and too lenient where he should have been steadfast.
>>873672
Amen, brother.
Yankees are the only saving grace of the US.
The South and most of the Midwest is a garbage fire.
>>873680
Oh, fuck off with this strawman. The specific socioeconomic parallels I outlined (reliance on slave labor, specifically racially motivated ruling class, etc) aren't nearly as broad as you're implying.
>>873670
This is a fair point that I hadn't thought of! I would argue conscription is fundamentally different from slavery in a lot of ways but yep, it is definitely forced labor.
>>873672
I despise Conservative southern politics, being a Virginian and a socialist, but I really can't abide reading someone who pretends to be left-wing calling Black Virginians "niggers". It's really distasteful.
>>873543
Maybe if Lincoln stayed around to finish his turn and set it on the right track.
Also, the former confederacy politicians should never have been let back into congress.
>>873718
> most of the Midwest is a garbage fire.
As a proud Ohioan yankee, I am offended.
The midwest is mostly fine, except maybe Missouri and Kansas.
>>873742
>Ohioan
Fuck off flyover state.
>>873768
Fight me coastal faggot.
>>873784
>non-original 13 colony fag talking shit
You a saucy cunt!
>>871481
The prevailing view is that liberating 4 million slaves was worth a million dead.
However considering Brazil ended slavery in the 1880s I think slavery would have ended in the 1880s at the latest as new technology arose and the economy changed. It is completely reasonable to question whether Abraham Lincoln's aggressive occupation of Fort Sumter was justified (although he did not order it he condoned it by sending supplies).
Also of note is the fact that many slaves starved to death after the civil war, it wasn't just a million predominately white male cis scum who died.
>>871481
ex-slaves rather
>>873800
>non-superior Northwest ordinance fag throwing shade
You're just jealous of our lakes.
>>871481
The entire concept of the "united states" is the fact that each state is afforded the opportunity to govern itself in accordance with the laws created and approved by the citizens within that state. The civil war essentially shit all over that concept when the federal government decided to usurp the power of the states and make proclamations against the will of the people of the southern states.
People simply overlook this fact because "muh slavery".
The reason we are a republic, and not a centralized government ran shithole, is to allow each state to maintain their unique culture and laws. People don't appreciate that and have been using the feds to impose their shitty will on the nation ever since.
>>873818
>Northwest
>superior
Disgusting, stay with your Mormon shits.
>>873834
Slavery is also unconstitutional, however it would have ended on its own accord eventually, if it weren't for dishonest abe we would have enjoyed both state rights and emancipation.
>>873898
Sure it is.....when you reinterpret it to fit your agenda, as people have been doing since the thing was written.
>>873721
>being a Virginian and a socialist
I want the Yankees to leave.
>>873930
I'm a southerner born and bred, bitch.
>>873935
>Virginian
>socialist
Choose one.
>>873935
More like born and RED amirite?
>>873943
South is a shit hole, shit holes have communists because of shit genetics and generally poor human capital.
>>873972
I'm not a communist, and perhaps the correlation between left-wing ideology and shitholes is due to those of us who live in them are able to perceive the validity and importance of left wing solutions.
>>871481
A lot of people who advocate for "liberty" small government conservatives and libertarians portray the conflict as a fight between federal control and states rights. Being in favor of decentralized govt n all
>>873952
That's what they told you in New York, isn't it Ms. "Virginia".
>>874003
Sorry that I'm a true son of Dixie ie, a socialist.
>>873835
>Northwest Ordinance
That doesn't mean the Northwestern US today. It meant the northwestern US in the 1780's-90's, meaning what is now the great lakes states today.
>>873721
>aren't nearly as broad as you're implying.
Every European empire before WWII used a significant amount of forced labor and a racial caste system supported by the ruling class. Ethiopia and Japan did too.
You can claim that the confederacy was a mistake and that slavery had long-lasting negative effects for black people without demonizing Southern whites by comparing them to Nazis. The comparisons are totally unwarranted and unnecessary.
>many people, not just in the south, but internationally, still support the idea of the CSA today, or that the south should have won the war. Why is that?
Lol what, since when
>>873935
More like bull-bred, amirite.
>>874069
>NoVa
>Virginia
Choose one.
>>874069
I should add that I'm not from NOVA, fuck NOVA. South Virginia/Richmond and NC confluence is the best part of the south.
>>874090
So Robert E. Lee isn't a Virginian because he's from NoVA area too?
>>871481
Some people will argue over "muh states rights" or "muh slavery" or "muh alienation" or whatever, but the truth is that the war was fought because the Union was jelly of the Confederacy's superior music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5xdgYLuFCk
>>874069
>nigger thinks all the asshole imports working for the feds in D.C. from NoVa are "Virginians".
>>871615
I mean you cant say that reconstruction wasnt terrible for the southern states, much like the treaty of Versailles for germany
>they lost so fuck them
uh huh cause thats working
>>874106
I think anyone who lives in Virginia, is classified as a Virginian citizen, and has a permanent residency in Virginia is a Virginian. If you are autistic or ass-blasted so badly that you think 99% of the federal workers in NoVA and DC aren't VA/DC, that's your problem.
>>874103
I fucking love confederate music. I recently learned that Confederate soldiers were allowed to elect their regimental level commanders (most of the time), which was pretty fascinating. I've always despised the Confederacy and the legacy of racism it left us in the South, but it is a much more nuanced and interesting thing than I think many of us on the left are willing to acknowledge.
>>874101
>nigger thinks the NoVa today even remotely resembles Bobby Lee's NoVa
>>874057
Well, if you want to excel at interstate banter, you should be sure of which state you're bantering with.
>>874111
>moves to NoVa from some socialist shithole Yankee city
>thinks they're living in the "south"
>>873898
>Slavery should've been kept, it would have died eventually!
We don't need to arrest that rapist, he'll die eventually!
>>874133
I have and the entire district around VCU is still just as bad as before.
>>874139
What the fuck are you babbling about? Virginia is the South. Maryland, Delaware and DC are also the South. You do understand there is a massive difference between the South and the DEEP SOUTH right?
Also I've lived in DC and NoVA all my life. Project harder.
>>874057
Delaware is most certainly a shithole my friend. Virginia aside from NoVa (liberal carpetbagger zone) is basically Alabama and DC is a ghetto paradise.
>>874142
I don't think Bobby Lee spoke Espanol, did he senor?
>>874147
>Virginia aside from NoVA (liberal carpetbagger zone)
Wrong.
>is basically Alabama
Dead wrong.
>DC is a ghetto paradise
Only the Southeast which is largely African-American demographically speaking and hugely gentrified from the rest of the District which is mainly Asian and White.
You don't know shit.
>>874146
>You do understand there is a massive difference between the South and the DEEP SOUTH right?
>>874146
>I have and the entire district around VCU is still just as bad as before.
Bullshit. Jackson Ward and Carver are still a little bit cracky, and if you keep going down broad street in either direction it obviously decays a little the further you go, but the district immediately surrounding VCU has gotten so much nicer in the 20 years I've lived here its unbelievable.
>>873906
You don't have to stretch very far after the bill of rights.
>>874153
DC is basically Liberia you fucking retard. I'd rather live in Detroit than that cesspit.
>>874160
>implying there isn't
Texas is also quite different.
>>874169
There are still curfews at VCU for the park because of all the homeless people who have been known to attack students and pedestrians with knives and shivs. Richmond is almost as bad in general as Baltimore when it comes to violent crime outside of being notably less bad as shootings go.
>>874160
>>874147
t. shitposter
>>874172
Once again: mainly in the Southeast, which is also the poorest residential area in the District in the first place. What a twist huh?
>>874172
I don't know about that anon.
I mean, sure, D.C. IS a ginormous shithole, but saying it's worse than Detroit might be pushing it...
>>874160
>literally being so retarded he thinks the South and Deep South are the same
So Mississippi and Florida are the same?
>>874145
It is not that simple, someone has to weigh the consequences.
Do you believe we should go to war with North Korea to liberate their concentration camps regardless of the number of people who will die once they use their nuclear weapons?
>>874185
>There are still curfews at VCU for the park because of all the homeless people who have been known to attack students and pedestrians with knives and shivs. Richmond is almost as bad in general as Baltimore when it comes to violent crime outside of being notably less bad as shootings go.
Well, yeah, Monroe Park sucks and is full of homeless people. But you should take a stroll down Grace street or head up Semmes over the bridge, all the new development has been fantastic. Statistically, violent crime here is at the lowest point since, like forever. I feel pretty safe all the time and I live in the heart of the "ghetto".
>>874185
>b-but if I cherrypick only the good areas then it'll look good!
Nice goalpost moving, sod off ghetto boy.
>>874190
>literally being so retarded that they think NoVa is part of their "south/deep south" pretense
>>871481
t. carpetbagger
>>873340
Frigg off
>>874199
Surprised they don't throw their back out the way they carry around those goal posts...
>>874189
>Georgetown
>Spring Valley
>DuPont
>Cathedral Heights
I can actually go on with more of this. Specifically speaking the poorest part of DC is the Southeast across Anacosta; which again is largely poor African-Americans in terms of demographics with some Hispanic admixture.
>>874199
Where are the goal posts being moved, my fallacy misusing shitposting friend?
>>874189
DC, St. Louis, Cleveland, Detroit, all shit. Can't really pick which one is the worst.
>>874216
True...true.
>>874200
Northern Virginia is an area in Virginia, a state in the South; which has never been traditionally associated with the Deep South. You can shrektext all you want but no one is buying your bullshit.
>>874212
>see, I'm gonna claim a place is rich, but I'lll pick only the wealthy and non-crime ridden areas and ignore the bad ones!
With this retarded logic you can make even Detroit look good.
>>874199
>>874207
NoVa is southern in the same way Austin is Texan. I mean geographically they are, but culturally it's completely out of place.
>>874229
So you don't know what "moving" the goal posts are, you intentionally attempt to poison the well and you actually are the only one here guilty of "cherry-picking" by focusing on a single region in the District of Colombia where the lion share of crime and poverty are represented primarily by a single demographic?
You sure are a huge shitposter. mate.
>>874222
NoVa is about as "southern" as Bruce Jenner is a "woman".
>>874241
NoVA is the same culturally as Virginia Beach as well. Culturally Virginia has more in common with Maryland and DC to the rest of the North then they do with the Deeper South.
Also most of our governors in the last 40-50 years have been moderates, and we were traditionally a democratic state post-Civil War.
>>874247
Sure thing dude.
>>874241
Or maybe southern culture is more diverse than you've been led to believe.
>>874212
You know that little white speck on top of chicken shit?
That's chicken shit too...
>>874243
The place as a whole has Nigeria tier murder rate amigo.
>>874263
I'm sure there's nothing southern about federal employees moving in from all over the country and completely changing the demographic landscape.
> southern culture is more diverse than you've been led to believe
I know that. Kentucky and Louisiana are both southern even though they're very different from each other. But NoVa isn't southern at all, it's a plastic transplant zone.
>>874285
>>874268
Actually if you want to be logical, that'd be Florida or Alaska.
>>874297
Memeing? Cool.
>>874250
I think it is a more complicated picture than that. Sure, we've had a raft of moderate governors since the civil rights act, and we flirted with conservative Democratic populism from 1865-1920 or so, but Virginia has also historically been as resistant as other southern states to federal civil rights impositions. We were at the forefront of temperance/prohibition, Jim Crow, Massive Resistance, anti-homosexual laws, etc etc.
Simultaneously, though, VA has also had a large and diverse artistic community centered in Richmond and NOVA since at least the turn of the century. There was a really significant bohemian movement here in the 1920s - Langston Hughes came to Richmond in the mid-20s and had a grand time partying with our literary elite, though I'll grant he seemed to associate them with distinctly non-Southern cultural values.
http://theamericanreader.com/20-november-langston-hughes-to-carl-van-vechten/
Here's a neat little tidbit on avante garde literature in Richmond in the early 20th century - I'm sure there's more, I just did some research on this guy for a seminar and found him really interesting.
https://medium.com/@sgcbsg/virginia-vagaries-hunter-stagg-brilliant-talented-lazy-and-effete-1-ba29eac22b12#.nt89oxglc
>>873952
>Your vulgar individualism would have shocked early Virginians.
You are a liar.
The relative lack of government and inherited class distinctions, the scarcity of urban settlements and the labor they offered, and abundant opportunities for land ownership resulted in a highly individualistic frontier mentality in 17th century Virginians that persists to this day in the western part of the state. The earliest Virginians arrived so they could get rich off tobacco and return to England afterwards as wealthy men. The following generation aspired to own self-sufficient farms and detested the government's attempts to prevent them from seizing Indian lands, culminating in Bacon's Rebellion. Other than meeting up for church on Sundays and heading to the courthouse once a month for market days, Virginians rarely congregated with each other. The culture of honor system arose as a result, forcing people to defend their reputations as fiercely as their property if they wanted to be known as trustworthy persons to creditors and neighbors. The spirit of individualism only grew further in the 18th century with the enlightenment, the first great awakening, and the ideas of Thomas Jefferson.
I can't believe I have to explain this to someone who claims to have studied history.
>>873935
You are clearly not Southern bred.
>>874295
>But NoVa isn't southern at all, it's a plastic transplant zone.
This.
Niggers wouldn't know a collard green, a ham hock, or a bass lure if they jumped up and bit them on the ass.
>>874295
>But NoVa isn't southern at all, it's a plastic transplant zone.
Perhaps, but associating Southernness with conservative politics and whiteness is very reductive, and that seems to be the main reason people assert places like Austin and Nova aren't truly "southern".
>>874317
You're referring to the Virginian culture that coalesced outside of the Chesapeake region from 1640 onwards, and you're not incorrect. What I'm talking about are the much earlier settlers in the Northern Neck who were almost absurdly pious and interventionist in their enforcement of ecclesiastical laws and their willingness to impose the will of the state to stabilize tobacco prices/control smallholding farmers.
>>874317
Also I should add that the residents of the amalgamated 3-county area you're referring to represented a tiny fraction of Virginia's population before the 18th century.
>>874313
Virginia was the role model for where the Civil Rights movement had a domino effect on the rest of the South. When Jim Crow laws went out of Virginia relatively painlessly, the rest of the Southern states followed suit.
>>874317
It sounds like you're reading and copy-pasting from a textbook. Virginia as a colony and the Revolutionary period quickly transformed from isolated agrarian settlements and plantation to many co-depenent townships and small cities. While not everything you're saying is wrong, individualism was not that strong of a thing that defined Virginians.
>>874326
Even NoVA is hugely white and the main minorities here are Asian and Hispanic but the assertions that being "Southern" translates to a "shithole" or backwards redneck area is what is bullshit. Which NoVA clearly proves aren't correct.
For the same reason people romanticize other groups that fought losing wars against modernity for the sake of outdated social institutions, such as the Carlists in Spain or the Samurais in Japan.
>>874168
>Are you seriously trying to bring up Hispanics when they are fastest growing minority across the entire Eastern Seaboard? Holy shit, kill yourself.
Are you kidding me!?
>>871481
The north's primary purpose in having the civil war
was to prevent the south from controlling the west.
The north engaged in economic sabotage that crippled the south in order that they may leverage power and oversee the westward expansion.
If anyone honestly believes that "the civil war was about slavery", that's quite unfortunate.
>>874393
The Carlists were actually right tho
>>874326
>and whiteness
Dude what? South is the least white part of the nation.
>>874340
>coalesced outside of the Chesapeake region from 1640 onwards
No.
The "obtain land and get rich quick" mentality for settlers had formed before they ever set foot there; when the Virginia Company drafted its charter. While starvation and fights with Indians briefly changed their first priority to survival they never lost their thirst for profit. The Virginia colony faltered, stagnated, and came close to being considered an abject failure until John Rolfe introduced Caribbean tobacco in 1612.
>enforcement of ecclesiastical laws and their willingness to impose the will of the state to stabilize tobacco prices/control smallholding farmers.
Separation of church and state and laissez-faire ideology did not even exist in English thought in the early 17th century. The fact that the early colony's government did not adhere to these enlightenment-era concepts is not a convincing counterargument to the notion that colonial Virginia culture was heavily individualistic.
>>871481
Because multiple reasons
A - America is currently the global hegemon. We cried for the massacre of the romanovs but if we were to be honest the USSR did better than could be expected from the Romanovs, but a different outcome could possible mean no Cold War, so we still feel sorrow.
As such, it could be guessed that if the CSA won the global political landscape would be vastly different, which would benefit anybody but America.
B- you still have southerners pushing the "honorable justification" shit and most people will believe anything that's repeated enough times, especially when it isn't within their interests to find out for certain.
C - plain simple teenage fueled edge and support for the underdog
T. Texan
>>874483
>USSR did better than could be expected from the Romanovs
This is now a fuck NOVA thread.
>>874488
I meant in the long term mate. Are you arguing that Russia could've held the geopolitical clout of the USSR at it's height well after the revolution?
>>874495
Yep. The myth about Russia being a backwater refusing to industrialize and that only the bolsheviks could do that is honestly just a product of red propaganda. The Bolsheviks did nothing except set Russia back 20 years.
>>873330
>The slaves were happy being slaves
Sounds like that guy on Fox saying women would rather be giving birth than working a 9-5.
I think the pride argument makes a lot of sense though.
Probably because in almost 250 years, the south developed something resembling a unique culture. A shitty one, but at least it is was not just copied from Europe. I see the South more alike Hispanic countries than as Americans.
Because a few of us still identify with their states/Dixie over the US. We're rare but I am a Virginian before an American (we existed for nearly 200 years outside of the US) and north of the Mason-Dixon line is like a foreign country to me.
The CSA, slavery aside was our last chance to preserve our identities. We are not the United States of America anymore, we are the United Provinces of Greater Washington DC. The homogenous catch-all American "identity" is cancerous and artificial and I don't want anything to do with it.
I don't have anything against yankees besides their accents, though.
>>874493
Silence SoVA filth!
>>874355
>It sounds like you're reading and copy-pasting from a textbook
They're highlights from my class notes. I took three courses on the history of Virginia when I attended college, and I review my notes periodically.
>quickly transformed from isolated agrarian settlements and plantation to many co-depenent townships and small cities.
I am arguing against this post >>873952 which mentions individualism being foreign to "early Virginians." The poster didn't define "early" so I decided to take it back to as early as possible. Further, Virginia had a smaller urban population and fewer roads and canals than the north even before the industrial revolution.
>>874536
Please stop.
>>874584
>CIA, Pentagon
If I didn't hate NoVa before I certainly do now.
>>874587
Virginia wasn't "hugely" as industrialized as the North but it bore the overwhelming burden of railroads, roads, sea and land traffic as well as the logistical supplying of the entire CSA during the Civil War.
Even before breaking from British rule, large cities developed in Virginia; it was just they were closely connected and developed alongside the plantation system in the rural areas.
>>874604
It's great isn't it? We have all the intelligence agencies, the Pentagon, and the two most important naval military ports and drydocks for the US navy.
VA fuck yeah.
>>874591
He's right though, south has very distinct culture.
Take the midwest in comparison, bland as fuck and completely devoid of any cultural uniqueness and I'm saying that as a midwesterner. The one exception is Chicago and that's pretty much it.
>>874584
>RVA
>boring compared to spending 75% of your time sitting in traffic
Lol, map creator has no idea what he's talking about in general. Probably some teenage redditfag.
>>874619
There's nothing great about hosting the Jewish Big Brother agencies. Sounds like most of the country could be fixed if we just got rid of certain counties in NoVa and Maryland.
>>874624
Try again, SoVA. Have you been to places like Haymarket? Absolute shithole.
>>874584
Go back to New Jersey and take your unsweetened ice tea, wet ham, plywood mcmansions, and smoking bans with you.
You are diluting and replacing the unique and vibrant culture of this state while living off the hard-earned money of ordinary Americans like a fattened tick.
Yankees get out.
>>871496
t. A southerner that wore ear plugs in high school
>>874584
>abloobloobloo there's Christians here :/
Nice Reddit map
>>874584
Is this shit from Reddit?
>>874629
One decent sized meteor strike would do us right...
>>874619
>Alphabet soup agencies and their cancerous Yankee employees living in McMansions and voting for Terry McAullife
>fuck yeah
>>874619
>Even before breaking from British rule, large cities developed in Virginia
Unless you consider a town of less than 4,000 people to be a "large city," no they didn't.
>>871481
The south has a better aesthetic and a better culture. From a European perspective it seems like more of a "real" country than the US. Most people here, even very anti-racist people, have a lot of sympathy for the south. I fit that description desu, I'm often biased towards separatists and I'm a fan of southern culture.
![louisiana-plantations[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/h6WcXtK.jpg "louisiana-plantations[1].jpg")
>>873273
>inject modern politics
yes, because I was the one who brought up the southern strategy in a thread about the fucking civil war.
>>873330
>At any point in time you can address what I said, friend
ok, let's start. OP asked why people outside the south and internationally would romanticize the Old South. You responded with school books, monuments, the Southern Strategy lol, and the Dunning school.
>school books, monuments
why would a favorable retelling of the old south in southern school books and by southern monuments change the mind of non-southerners?
>Dunning School
A small circle of ivy league historians did not create mass sympathies for the old south in the general public. This is on "Frankfurt School created modern degeneracy" level of conspiracies.
>Southern Strategy
Nixon's campaign strategy in the 68' and 72' election to win over the Wallace voter did not cause people to have some favorable view of the old south, nor has really anything to do with OP's question.
>>873688
Sorry but anyone who brings up the Southern strategy, Dunning School, and the Lost Cause Myth hits the trifecta of Neo-Abolitionist buzzwords. I called him a leftist because that's exactly where he gets his information. Fuck, no one even talks about the Lost Cause unless they subscribe to Neo-Abolitionist readings.
Ok, so let me now answer OP's question. Because the Old South is romantic. It reminds people of an older more authentic idealized America. After all Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and James Madison were all southern plantation aristocracy. This Arcadian imagination of the Old South resonates with a lot of people around the country and abroad, especially during the past century of mass industrialization, immigration, and wage labor. It must have some attraction if studying the antebellum south for 40 years turned Eugene Genovese from a little marxist New Yorker into a bible thumping dixie whistling agrarian.
>>871481
A little late to the party, but the only sympathy that people could have for the south is that their principles were solid. Most people support the CSA shit see it as a states rights issue rather than a slavery issue. Honestly though? They were traitors to the union and deserved what they got. If they would have just went along with it maybe Lincoln could have finished his plans to send the slaves back, and we wouldn't have half the trouble we have today.
>>874739
>peacefully leaving a voluntary union is betraying it
>>874749
This.
The CSA didn't use violence to leave the union, they used the vote.
The biggest mistake the south ever made was to commit to a conventional campaign instead of an insurrection.
>>874584
>the captial, boring place. kinda pales to northern VA
Is this guy serious?
>>874117
the north should've created a "de-confederication" program like the Allies did with denazification. It seemed to be pretty successful in Germany, even through recent events. Also, they should've ensured black people had rights so they could get the fuck out of the south instead of setting the country up for more instability in the 1960's.
>>874792
A lot of them did get out of the south and are now shitting up the north as well.
>>874792
It's a classic case of short attention span biting people in the ass.
After the Civil War, everyone lost interest in Reconstruction within a few years, and it set the stage for several more generations of turmoil.
>>874792
>the old confederates=nazis meme
Being a Jeffersonian Republican mean you have to be sent to re-education camps? How american.
>so they could get the fuck out of the south
>implying the republicans wanted them out of the south
Enfranchising the blacks and keeping them there allowed for republican domination of the south during reconstruction. Also, northerners fucking hated blacks. Illinois,"the Land of Lincoln", had black codes prior to the war that outlawed blacks from even entering the state.
>>874792
That's exactly what happened though.
Do you know what the reconstruction was?
>they have the best songs
>they have the best flag
>they have Stonewall Jackson and Robert E Lee
>Funny accents
>Everyone loves an underdog
10/10 would wish I was in dixie
>>873515
Here anon, you could use this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire
Also, subpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability
>>874507
Except I never said that, I just said in the long run you had a more powerful and more unstable Russia.
Yes the romanovs could have been theoretically better, but alt history isn't my forte nor is it the point of the thread.
>>874513
Working 9-5 is year round, birthing happens approximately once a year.
Which would you prefer?
>>873721
Well I don't want you to abide by me because youo didn't comprehend what I wrote.
To restate: NOT ALL BLACKS ARE NIGGERS.
Blacks that act punk and do crime and all the other bad shit are niggers.
Blacks that have jobs and are respectful to people and contribute to their societies (Which Niggers call "Acting White") are not.
I'm mostly left wing, but I support Science above all else. Science HAS NO POLITICAL ALIGNMENT, and no political correctness.
Thanks for playing though.
>>874949
>born with womb
>would rather let it slowly rot away than use it
Women "logic".
>>874940
Except the commenter actively defended that claim until everyone shat on them and they dropped it.
There are people who unironically believe the antebellum South was comparable to Nazi Germany.
>>874849
>Also, northerners fucking hated blacks.
People tend to forget this or be totally ignorant of it.
Slavery wasn't ended to free the blacks, it was ended to get rid of the blacks all together.
>>874980
I wasn't trying to make a political point, I was just pointing out the logic used in the statement.
I don't disagree or agree.
>>871481
>mostly about slavery
You're wrong their, son. 600k Americans didn't die for less than 2% of the population at the time. Besides, the worst race riots in American history happened in New York because nobody wanted to fight for something they didn't care about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots
>>873229
May have lost but they took a stand for what they believed in.
>>874996
They are slightly comparable in the sense that they were both racist hellholes, metaphorical mouses that roared, that were completely obliterated in their overconfidence by their superior neighbors- and then all of a sudden forgiven because 'it was muh politiks, not the people! most people were innocent!'
So yeah, there's that- in case you forgot.
>>874660
>tumblr
Also kill yourself. The main economic exports in NoVA are IT, federal workers, defense contracts, and diplomats, that isn't feeding off "anything" you parasitic retard.
>>874936
pretty scrappy fighters too
>>875042
>The main economic exports in NoVA are IT,
For the feds....which means they're tax leeches
>federal workers
Tax leeches
>defense contracts
Tax leeches
>and diplomats
Tax leeches, foreign and domestic
>that isn't feeding off "anything" you parasitic retard.
Right.
>>875087
>my arbitrary definition is what matters!
Sure thing, Cletus.
>>874663
t. yank scum
>>873834
One of the major reasons why the south seceded was because northern states were flat ignoring the fugitive slave act which said that they had to return runaway slaves. The Southerners were fine with using the federal government to strong arm yankees into supporting beliefs they don't agree with, but the moment the yankees push back it's "OMFG BIG EBIL GUBMINT" and secession.
It's as hypocritical as fighting for your freedom to own slaves. It's so blatantly obvious that you'd have to be a meth-addled southern bumkin to not see it
>>875037
>racist
Literally every country was racist in 1860.
>hellhole
Meanwhile in the North immigrant workers were treated like disposable tools and frequently died in industrial accidents, farmers sent their daughters off to work for rapey mill owners to pay their debts, alcoholism was rampant, and great plagues, riots, and fires frequently ravaged its densely packed urban centers.
Just adding a little perspective. You know, in case you forgot.
>>875042
>that isn't feeding off "anything" you parasitic retard.
Three of the four you listed get paid high salaries through federal tax dollars, all four if you take into consideration that those IT workers are typically employed by some government agency. The Capital is like a mini Muscovy, taxing the rest of the country for the sake of a bureaucratic elite of questionable value.
>>875139
you realize that the constitution all the states agreed upon required fugitive slaves to be returned?
>Article IV Sec. 2 Clause 3
>No person held to service or labor in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due.
>>875149
>bureaucratic elite
Nice joke.
>>875139
Yes how dare Southerners ask that the federal government enforce the law on its books that they compromised to obtain.
>>875150
And you realize that the southern states were not nearly the consistently defenders of states rights that they claimed to be, right?
MUH STATES RIGHTS was a diplomatic ploy, a rebranding effort when it became obvious to everyone that nobody in Europe was buying their confederate bullshit about the natural inferiority of negros.
>>873494
change slave to wageslave and you just described the union too.
>>875166
EXACTLY. Southerners only hate the federal government when it's someone other than them pulling the levers. It's hypocrisy at its most rank.
>>875164
Six of the ten wealthiest counties in the United States surround the capital.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States
The source of that money is federal tax dollars.
Is there anything else I can spoon feed you?
>>875181
>this has nothing to do with all the federal employees employed by various important state departments and agencies
>its "SOLELY TAXES GUYS"
Kill yourself.
>>875169
what? states rights were defined by the constitution, if it explicitly said the states were required to do something, then it wasn't a state right.
>nobody in Europe was buying their confederate bullshit about the natural inferiority of negros.
are you retarded? everyone thought negroes were naturally inferior, north, south, and europe.
>>875149
>Meanwhile in the North immigrant workers were treated like disposable tools and frequently died in industrial accidents, farmers sent their daughters off to work for rapey mill owners to pay their debts, alcoholism was rampant, and great plagues, riots, and fires frequently ravaged its densely packed urban centers.
But that changed, thanks in large part to the democratic process.
The southern constitution was specifically rewritten to make slavery a permanent aspect of the economy, and would have made emancipation effectively impossible.
That's how progress works.
>>875175
Except the fugitive slave law was written down and agreed upon by every state, while secession was a legal gray area that wasn't resolved until 4 years after the war was over by federal justices in a 5-3 decision.
>>875194
Where the fuck do you think the money for those "various important state departments and agencies" comes from?
>>875181
You know there are plenty of Fortune 500 companies in Northern Virginia that don't even do business with the state or federal goverment right? You are also aware that Northern Virginia for decades is one of the fastest growing economic areas; especially in Fairfax and Loudoun counties and cities like Vienna, Tyson's Corner and Reston which are heavily suited for growing businesses.
Federal involvement with the state is one part of it, but claiming the entirety of Virginia's wealth or affluence is solely from the federal government is hyperbolic bullshit.
>>871481
Civil War was about the right to secede from the union. The slavery issue commenced during the war because Abe thought it would be useful in order to win the war.
>>875213
So IT companies and tech firms that deal with filtering and hosting over 80% of the nation's internet and broadband services has nothing to do with? :^)
>>875213
The money tree fairies, silly!
>>875209
>Except the fugitive slave law was written down and agreed upon by every state
And a classic example of how the southern states are flaming hypocrites about their love/hatred of the federal government.
>while secession was a legal gray area
The real irony is that emancipation only became politically feasible under the emergency war-time powers of the president. Had the southern states not seceded, slavery probably would have endured.
>federal justices in a 5-3 decision.
yeah states can't secede. The goal of forming the United States was to form a more perfect union [than the shitty Articles of Confederation which is every right-wingers wet dream of a government except for the fact that in practice it's literally unworkable] and seceding because you don't like how the democratic process works is not a more perfect union.
>>875200
>The southern constitution was specifically rewritten to make slavery a permanent aspect of the economy, and would have made emancipation effectively impossible.
yeah bullshit, provide a source.
>>875238
"No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."
Article I, Section 9, Clause 4
"The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired."
Article IV, Section 2
"The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several States; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."
Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3
Now sit down and shut the fuck up
>>871497
>Western world is about to collapse
West is only an idea, and changes like the one you're talking about take so long to happen that only historians notice them.
>>875217
>You know there are plenty of Fortune 500 companies in Northern Virginia that don't even do business with the state or federal goverment right?
Let's list every Fortune 500 companies in NoVa and see how true that is, shall we?
>No. 31, Freddie Mac, McLean, revenue of $80.6 billion
finance, taken over by the feds after being bailed out
>No. 98, General Dynamics, Falls Church, $31.5 billion
military contractor
>No. 120, Northrop Grumman, Falls Church, $25.2 billion
military contractor
>No. 127, Capital One Financial, McLean, $23.8 billion
finance, not government affiliated
>No. 153, AES, Arlington, $18.2 billion
energy company
>No. 176 Computer Sciences (CSC), Falls Church
major IT provider for the federal government
>No. 240, SAIC, McLean, $11.2 billion
military contractor
>No. 421, NII Holdings, Reston, $6.1 billion
cellphone service provider for Brazil? no government affiliation
>No. 436, Booz Allen Hamilton, McLean, $5.9 billion
management consulting, 99% of the company's revenue comes from the U.S. Federal government http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/10/news/booz-allen-hamilton-leak/index.html
>No. 453, ITT Exelis, McLean, $5.5 billion
military contractor
>No. 467, Gannett Co., McLean, $5.4 billion
newspaper publisher, no government affiliation
8/11 of NoVa's Fortune 500 companies are supported by federal tax dollars. Tell me again about all the great things NoVa produces for our country.
>>875259
none of those would stop a confederate state from ending slavery, just the CSA congress.
>>875296
NoVa BTFO
>>875296
Go read a Forbes magazine, you autistic monkey.
>>875298
Southern contempt for the federal government only happens when they're not the ones pulling the levers. When it's their cause they're more than happy to bring down the heavy fist of government. They are literally the worlds biggest hypocrites about the issue.
And no confederate state would have been allowed to end slavery, not any more than a Republican state could ignore Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution.
>>875325
You're the one who should be reading considering you didn't realize that NoVa's economy is by-and-large supported by ever increasing federal spending until I spelled it out for you. That's about as common knowledge as it gets.
Get learned, you government tit sucker.
>>875198
>muh states rights
Yeah, I get it. Southerners are totally hypocrites about their love of states rights. You don't have to keep hammering the point home.
>are you retarded? everyone thought negroes were naturally inferior, north, south, and europe.
No, I'm fucking educated you twit. Europe emancipated their slaves around the time New England did (late 18th century). They thought Napoleon was a vicious tyrant for bringing it back. They weren't about to listen to that Confederate bullshit, which is why not a single fucking European state acknowledged the Confederacy as being anything but a pack of robber barons goading their impoverished masses into the slaughter because god forbid they might have to make payroll.
The south was literally fucking isolated in the world, which is why the union was able to beat them down with one hand tied behind its back.
>>874241
I don't know about NoVa, but Austin is very Texan. Texas has a few fairly distinct cultures, such as Central, East, South, West, and Panhandle. Austin is not very out of place, they just like to say they are.
>>875236
>classic example of how the southern states are flaming hypocrites about their love/hatred of the federal government.
How is it hypocrisy to want the government to enforce laws the whole country agreed to in a long and drawn-out compromise? Federal government is neither all good nor all bad, and to pretend that one must believe it to be either one or the other to avoid being a hypocrite is moronic. The CSA didn't object to the existence of federal government, they resented the capital because they had lost significant political influence there and desired self-determination as a remedy.
>yeah states can't secede.
Yes they can, the SCOTUS just decided they first need to get the approval of the other states to do so.
>Articles of Confederation which is every right-wingers wet dream of a government
Not even the most stalwart anti-federalist wanted to return to the articles of confederation after the Constitution has been passed. Quit assuming everyone who disagrees with you is retarded, it reflects poorly on your ability to understand nuance.
>>875584
Not that anon but most people did think of blacks as inferior. Slavery was just economically outdated and looked down upon as barbaric.
>>875579
You are literally a fucking retarded cherry-picking piss-ant:
Iridium Communications
Morcom International, Inc.
NeuStar
RCN Corporation
SkyTerra
SpaceQuest, Ltd.
t/Space
Transmitter Location Systems
XO Communications
This is just a few among many.
Kill yourself.
>>875602
>I don't know about NoVa, but Austin is very Texan.
>>875296
Where's ThinkGeek? Where's CustomInk? Or Mars Inc? You know there are several Fortune 500 companies in NoVA that do telecommunications, internet/broadband services, e-commerce, and finance and aren't government contractors right?
>>875631
I'm not cherry picking at all, I was refuting >>875217 's claim that
>plenty of Fortune 500 companies in Northern Virginia that don't even do business with the state or federal goverment
When in fact it's only 3 out of 11.
FURTHERMORE
>Iridium Communications
"The service revenue to governments made up 23% of Iridium's revenues in 2012"
>Morcom International
"Morcom serves as an adviser and project leader to many governments, businesses, and institutions"
>NeuStar
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-business/wp/2015/03/05/neustar-poised-to-lose-major-contract/
>SpaceQuest
"SpaceQuest's customers include US and foreign universities, NASA, the US Air Force, the Canadian Space Agency, commercial aerospace companies, and foreign developers of microsatellites"
>t/Space
defunct, but "In September 2004 t/Space was one of eleven companies selected by NASA to conduct preliminary concept studies for the Crew Exploration Vehicle and human lunar exploration, for which it received a US$3 million contract"
>Transmitter Location Systems
subsidiary of SSCI, military contractor that builds drones
Are we done here?
>>875673
>Morcom
Where does it say exclusively government contractor?
>NeuStar
Where does it say exclusively government contractor?
>SpaceQuest
Where does it say exclusively government contractor?
>t/space
Where did it say exclusively government contractor?
>Are we done here?
I don't know, are you faggot?
>>875650
I was going by this list from 2013
http://www.virginiabusiness.com/news/article/23-virginia-companies-on-fortune-500
>ThinkGeek
>Customink
Those are not Fortune 500 companies. http://fortune.com/fortune500/
>Mars Inc.
headquartered in Washington state.
>>875673
>Iridium Communications
Also, where does it say exclusively government contractor?
>>875622
>How is it hypocrisy to want the government to enforce laws the whole country agreed to in a long and drawn-out compromise?
Because you love the government when it works for you and hate it when it works for people you hate.
>they resented the capital because they had lost significant political influence there and desired self-determination as a remedy.
They were buttblasted over losing an election to a compromise moderate who vowed to preserve slavery if it meant keeping the union together (while preventing its spread to new states) and that was enough to make the southerners collectively flip their shit. It was the southerners who were given concessions at every turn, who couldn't handle the truth that slavery was rotting their economy and driving them from what was once the wealthiest states in the union to the poorest, because by that point cotton barons had basically taken over the southern state governments. They couldn't handle being on the losing end of the democratic process and sought to rectify that situation with violence. They were charlatans and con men fighting for their bottom line, and southerners to this day can't bring themselves to admit that everything their grandpappy fought and died for was a farce.
> it reflects poorly on your ability to understand nuance.
Says the guy defending a pack of losers. It reflects poorly on your ability to make sound predictions about reality when you go so far out of your way to defend such a lost cause.
>>875692
>Mars Inc
>"Headquarters: McClean Virginia"
>>875698
B
TOLD
F
O
>>875602
Austin is nothing but libcuck SJW transplants from California.
