How bad is North Korea, really? What factual accounts do we have of life there? To what extent is the information we know just capitalist propaganda?
My biggest question is to how does their deprivation of common goods (wide variety of cars, Internet, western film/music/video games, malls, retail, etc) affect their sense of happiness? In other words, because of this "forced purity/rurality", are they truly happy, do they delude themselves into thinking they're happy, or are they not happy at all? Are they aware of the "benefits" of the west? Does the forced ignorance about the existence of, say, personal computers and smartphones make their life better, or not? Do they live in Plato's cave?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4hLctBvojE
Looks like a nice place, desu.
Clean, not a lot of traffic.
>>869624
>Do they live in Plato's cave?
y
>>869675
Yeah, it looks like a fucking video game. Super clean, not many entities (mechanical or human) around, everything seems coordinated, the trees are all at the same distance... but then again it's approved footage by their government. What are we not seeing, and how much of what he hear from dissidents is real?
It's a tough question, since a lot of "What factual accounts do we have of life there?" depends entirely on what you determine to be 'factual'. That's the biggest issue with studying the country.
If you take all of the testimony of escapees/refugees/converts/whatever you want to call them as fact, then NK is absolutely miserable and horrible. If you take SK media statements, including from "spies" as facts, then you also will think they have massive death camps and execute people via mortar firing, hungry dogs, and anti-aircraft guns.
So figuring out what is propaganda and what isn't is, I think, the most difficult part of studying NK. This has, at least, been true in my studies including when I try to study their laws. Since in studying their laws, one of the most common objections is "They don't follow them anyway". Is that true? Hard as fuck to know.
Otherwise, if you take their KCNA statements as fact, you have a superhappy great country that is fighting the imperialist hordes off with their massive unified korean army.
I, personally, think it's more in between (not fallacy of the middle style, but just in that I highly doubt either extreme is fully true).
I think they're just a pretty poor country that finds importance in image especially since they are actively trying to engage in foreign trade, tourism, etc. to bring money in (socialism doesn't leave them with a lot).
Are they aware of the benefits of the west? Some are, I've talked to a handful who are very knowledgeable about life in the west, though they still hold moral value judgments against certain economic policies, rights, etc. (right to work is a big one for them).
Otherwise it entirely depends on what part of NK you're talking if you want to talk about separation from technology. The big cities have smartphones, personal computers, etc. The rural areas have barely any electricity. HUGE difference.
>Do they live in Plato's cave?
Don't we all?
>>869624
There are some interesting books you can read about what life was like there during the famine, however, I haven't found anything yet about Kim Jon-Un's reign, Nothing To Envy is a great book to read when it comes to Kim Jong-Il's reign, it features many accounts from people who lived there, whether or not you want to dismiss it as 'capitalist properganda' is up to you, however, I don't see much reason to disbelieve what they people are saying.
The gist of what life is like from what I've gathered is:
>there is complete loyalty to the leader, especially Kim Il-Sung
>there is little power but that is America's fault
>any food shortage is America's fault
>education has more of a focus on physical activities
>higher years in education take on more dangerous activities such as mountain climbing or even directing members of the public to bomb shelters in an emergency
>military rank is practiced even at lower school years
>Pyongyang is the highest quality of life in the country, if you exclusively see Pyongyang then you would think that the DPRK is pretty nice, however, the rest of the country suffers immensely from poverty and starvation
>there is a very rigid class system of farmers, workers and intellectuals, depending on which you are, you get different benefits, farmers tend to lose out as they live in the countryside
I wouldn't much like to live there. Sure they have ensured housing and healthcare, but that doesn't really mean to much when the power isn't working in the hospitals and you have the misfortune of living in a house outside Pyongyang
>>869624
>rural paradise
More like rural nightmare on par with Ukraine in the 30s (but with international aid helping them save face) or if you are being kind, the Brazilian northeast during it's worst drought periods
>>869624
I hate to recommend Vice ever but their trip to North Korea from way back in the day was pretty cool.
>>869751
>tfw that tea girl
she's probably still there waiting for people to pass by
>>869758
Tea Girl was probably killed for thoughtcrime years ago.
>>869758
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HWLuhSPjQ
>tfw you will never save a North Korean qt from communist tyranny
;_;
>>869624
>are they truly happy
Repeated famines make me think otherwise.
>>869758
>>869785
TEA GIRL IS SPY
>>869702
>execute people via ... anti-aircraft guns
I thought that one at least was pretty much confirmed?
>>869722
Do you know how one would move from outside of Pyongyang to it?
>nothing to envy
Forgot this existed. Will read it when I finish with what I have now.
>>869773
>On a serious note, Are Vice's documentaries actually reliable?
Vice receives money from George Soros. What do you think?
>>869702
>the big cities have smartphones, personal computers, etc.
Wow, really? I remember that on the Vice documentary, it is strongly implied -if not stated directly- that the part of the tour they do when they show people in a computer room, is just actors paid to simulate that they're using a computer. I was convinced by that statement. The guy just moved the cursor around, and clicked on nothing, like if it was their first time in a PC. So what purpose do computers serve for civilians, and who has access to them?
And do you know if they have access to music from outside the country?
>>869751
>that fucking library scene
Shit was unbelievably creepy/fascinating
>>869624
>is
Not /his/.
>>869773
By and large, no. But with North Korea there's not a whole lot to spin. I struggle to think of any agenda that could be inserted in that footage coming from a liberal organization like Vice. The Liberia one is pretty cool as well.
>>869773
>On a serious note, Are Vice's documentaries actually reliable?
Eh. Their earlier stuff is pretty legit (especially North Korea and Liberia) but in recent years they've really taken a nosedive into social justice.
>>870501
Totally depends on your station. Royalty and those close to the party basically live like kings and have totally hedonistic lifestyles. They drink foreign wine and listen to rock n roll as much as they want.
If you're military or a farmhand though? Probably not. Probably not much in the way of entertainment at all.
Its at 12.5 grand annual income, which is actually higher than its neighbor china and many shitholes. For what it could have been its doing very well.
Economic prosperity does not magically appear after 50 years of making smart decisions.
>>870642
>Its at 12.5 grand annual income, which is actually higher than its neighbor china and many shitholes.
What the hell are you talking about?
>>870642
NK GDP per capita is $1,800 (USD ca. 2000).
>>870642
lmao
2014 CIA GDP Per Capita (PPP)
China-$12,900
Vietnam-$5,600
N. Korea-$1,800
>>870607
Really makes you wonder what the people at that WCW/NJPW show thought, talk about culture shock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzkoC2RyYsc
>>869702
>actively trying to engage in tourism
Am I retarded or is this untrue?
>>869624
Malnutrition is what is causing such leading reasons for the lack of physical vitality in the North Korean people and why they are so short for example.
>>869702
>I've talked to a handful
Can I ask what position you have where that's possible? Sounds like you've put a lot of time into the subject.
>>869624
their skin looks all fucked up like they don't get enough sun or vitamins
>>870959
Tourism is a big push by North Korea. And they've recieved billions from it. Threre's a few factors that make it make more sense.
1) They're mostly aiming at South Korea, and to a lesser extent China. Imagine if America got split in half, and most of the country never got to see the Statue of Liberty, or Niagara Falls, ever. But it's still a part of American culture. We can still see it in grainy footage from the 20s, and we have our stories about how our family came through Ellis Island.
That's roughly the position that South Koreans find themselves in. There's a shit-ton of sites of shared cultural heritage, and a lot of South Koreans are uneasy about the idea of an actual cultural split between north and south. For Chinese tourists, the political concerns aren't too bad.
2) There's three problems keeping them from following everyone else in East Asia's export oriented pattern. One, you need a shitton of loans to get your infant industries moving. America gave them to Japan post-war. Japan gave them to South Korea during the Park regime. Then America and Europe gave China a shitton. No one in their right mind is going to loan the DPRK money. They default, they embezzle and they counterfeit like crazy. So good luck getting your economy out of a ditch.
Second, from the perspective of internal politics, it's very difficult for North Korea to actually send exports. Property laws aren't very good, and so if you build a nice, new factory producing clothes, every party secretary and general will have plans for what to do with it, and good luck actually getting it exported.
And third, they're worried about the very thing the US is hoping on with China: That an export oriented economy will cause rising wages, an increased need for an educated and highly mobile population, etc. which leads to political openness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULO3i5Xra0
>>871049
On the contrary, they're hoping the political situation will work to their favor in tourism. Think about it, if the Norks could actually earn the trust of foreigners, their system guarantees a bunch of perks for tourists.
You're not going to get mugged in Pyongyang. You won't have to deal with pickpockets and grifters, either. The streets will absolutely be clean, and the traffic will be light. And the poverty is the biggest draw of all for a tourist. You got a few hundred or thousand dollars (or Won, or Yen, or Remenbi, or Rubles) spending cash for this trip? You can throw around money and live like a king on your trip. Costs stay low. At the same time, the state controls access to these wages, so they don't have to deal with that whole middle income gap thing.
>>870972
Possibly, but more likely it's just caked on makeup.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9HxGhIo-6k
>you will never live under the blessing of pogumjari with your qt wife
>>871065
Until you spend too long looking at a poster and get imprisoned for life
>>871108
Yeah, well there's a reason why this project has yet to take off. But it's been a serious goal for the DPRK for nearly 30 years now, and neither the Arduous March or the Nuclear Crisis, or a change of leadership has changed that plan. So it's entirely accurate to say that North Korea is actively trying to engage in tourism. In fact, I'd say it's central to their economic plans.
>>870501
I'll post some phone related pics for fun.
But yeah, they have computers outside of the documentary too - I'll post some of those as well. That documentary is surreal, and it may have been NK trying to not look like shit, and perhaps they have changed since then and these are mainly newer things - but they do, for sure, have access to working computers in Pyongyang (with LIMITED AS FUCK internet, but their classic full-spread inTRAnet).
In terms of music, yes and no. You can hear some of their bands actively playing foreign music. And they do have access to some other music. BUT keep in mind music, like most cultural things within their philosophy, has a GOAL. Example of restrictions listed under their criminal code:
Article 193 (Import, Keeping and Distribution of Decadent Culture)
A person who, without authorization, imports, makes, distributes or illegally keeps music,
dance, drawings, photos, books, video recordings or electronic media that reflects decadent,
carnal or foul contents shall be punished by short-term labour for less than two years. In cases
where the person commits a grave offence, he or she shall be punished by reform through
labour for less than five years.
Article 194 (Conduct of Decadent Acts)
A person who watches or listens to music, dance, drawings, photos, books, video recordings
or electronic media that reflects decadent, carnal or foul contents or who performs such acts
himself or herself shall be punished by short-term labour for less than two years. In cases
where the person commits a grave offence, he or she shall be punished by reform through
labour for less than five years.
>>870501
>>870501
More PC dump
>>869624
Chink-N Gook border side has thriving capitalism afaik. Smuggled from Chinkland are entertainment media and phones as examples.
>>870959
They're trying. Lots of english stuff, including at their newest airport (which has some celebratory stuff going on at it soon). A newer ski resort, Masikryong, with a pleasantly surreal advertisement for you to visit (yes this ad is official): https://youtu.be/aaXC4Bgcsmo
More lax regulations on where tourists can go, when they take take pictures, etc. More access to trains and shit. Allowing some pictures within the 'Fatherland' museum.
They also have been going through legal revision, with huge criminal law amendments in 2004 and 2009, and the continued evolution of their still blooming Foreign Investment Law (I have a few editions of it, but sadly not the MOST up to date one). Of course those new US sanctions kinda fuck over the whole foreign investment thing.
Pic, Masikryong Ski Resort.
Dumpin some more phones.
>>869785
>tfw you will never visit Pun yun shi shop, buy tea and play ping pong with her
>>869624
>To what extent is the information we know just capitalist propaganda?
As I have said in other posts.
90% is made up bullshit often from "unknown sources" or literally satirical Asian blogs
8-9% is exaggerated as fuck.
North Korea is a poor totalitarian country, but not as poor as some other countries, more on the level of Siberia, Central Asia. (pic related, picture I snuck on the bus in Hamgyong)
The major problem with North Korea is it's LOCATION, if North Korea was next too Laos and Burma, nobody would give a fuck about it, If North Korea was next too Durkacentralasiastan nobody would give a fuck about it, too bad it's next too South Korea, China's richest provinces and Japan.
>Do they know of the outside world.
Yes. North Korean propaganda has long been about Western imperialism/Sanctions keeping them poor. No they don't claim they are the most successful country on earth, that's western bullshit.
>Muh Celebrity defectors.
Celebrity defectors like Park-Yeon Mi, Shin Dong-hyuk etc literally have their stories made up by right wing think tanks and will tailor change their stories per audience. Also most defector stories are from the 1990s famine, not modern North Korea.
>Is North Korea starving
Malnutrition is still a major issue, but chronic malnutrition is actually below the Asian average (remember countries like Bangladesh, Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal etc where people starve too death in the streets are in Asia)
>>871863
Is their recent capture of a tourist political?
>>872089
Partially? Probably.
Entirely? Unlikely.
They don't like picking up people for no reason, mainly for the reason of them not wanting you to be there in the first place. For an amusing article, read this interview with a US citizen who was arrested in NK: https://www.nknews.org/2014/11/matthew-millers-excellent-adventure-in-north-korea/
So in my personal opinion, and I emphasize this is just my opinion and not fact: Yeah, he likely stole something. What he stole was of more value there than it would be here. He also stole it during a time of increased sanctions on NK via the US. He then spun a story about how the US made him do it to try and get some mercy. Little did he know that it made the crime all the more political under their criminal law and fucked him harder. Despite being sentenced to 15 years, like many others have been, they all tend to get released within the first year. So we'll see. BUT the exception this time is the new super strict business sanction on the US that totally fucks over their attempt at foreign investment, information here: https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Sanctions/Pages/faq_other.aspx#nk
>>871868
>stock pictures of phone prove that my propaganda is real!
How gullible are you?
>>872156
Not aiming at propaganda or anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_in_North_Korea#Mobile_phones
https://www.nknews.org/2015/08/inside-north-koreas-cell-network-ex-koryolink-technical-director-reveals-all/
etc.
Cells exist, not sure why that would be propaganda.
>>872194
>pretending they are in any way accessible
>pretending stuff like this isn't a privilege
>north koreaboo
>source is DPRK360
>namefag
I wonder
>>872240
I can drop the name if it's triggering you, I just keep it around for ease of response. Not tripfagging or anything at least, so maybe I'm engaging in the lesser of two evils.
I'm not sure what privileges have to do with this? I mean, if you're trying to make a distinction that it is a privilege and not a right, you're right. They have nothing in their constitution listing a right to cellphones, a right to internet, etc. But I didn't realize people thought they had those rights in the first place, so it seems sort of unnecessary to mention to me.
And yeah, I like Aram's pictures from his DPRK360 project. He also, conveniently, bothers taking pictures of even the most mundane shit. I appreciate him, and I use his photos.
What are you wondering about?
>>872257
>not a right
You know what I meant. It's not something available to the average citizen, and is tightly controlled.
>b-but
Thirld world here. We had our own autocratic oligarchy don't try to fool me with your bullshit.
And guesd what: after the fall even the cheapest sod can buy a fucking phone, because they aren't tightly controlled fucking high-cost luxuries.
>>872257
>They have nothing in their constitution listing a right to cellphones, a right to internet, etc. But I didn't realize people thought they had those rights in the first place, so it seems sort of unnecessary to mention to me.
Governments don't issue rights dude. Try reading some Rousseau, Locke, or Voltaire. Any kind of limitation of telecommunications in this day and age is pretty clearly an attempt to stop free speech and the spread of ideas. The only reason the North Korean people don't stand up for their rights is because they've been raised by the state to believe all their rights come from the state rather than themselves or the Divine (if you want to believe in that sort of thing), and where propaganda doesn't work they coerce through violence.
This is what makes the DPRK evil, irregardless of the quality of like they provide.
>>872299
I agree with you but "irregardless" rustles my jimmies.
>>872302
I actually didn't release I typed that till after I posted, bad habit, damned colloquialisms.
>>872297
Except mobile networks are actually fairly expensive at the national level. It's not the phone that gets ya, bruv.
>>872318
>Cost at the national level
>Not just letting the cell companies pay for the infrastructure and paying a minimal subsidy
>>872299
lolled
I've read Rousseau, Locke, Voltaire, Kelsen, muh founding fathers, Kant, you name it. I like reading a lot and am a bit of a bibliophile
But I'm also not a natural law theorist. I don't think people have inherent natural rights that exist by nature of being human. I'm more like Kelsen, and try to study law as a legal positivist - and view rights as a legal fiction that exist for a very good purpose.
Does that mean I don't think people should have rights?
Hardly. I love muh rights. I think the US has a good concept of what rights should exist on an individual level, but the concept of rights differs largely by country - not to mention political philosophy or culture. In the DPRK, for example, one of their highest valued rights is a 'right to work' - and so if you read their literature criticizing the United States, one of the biggest offenses they see the US engaging in is depriving its citizens of that right.
And there are limitations on speech everywhere, including in the US. I am similar to you though, and I think that free speech, muh 'marketplace of ideas', is severely important and I value it more than anything else. I hate censorship.
But yeah, I DO think Governments issue rights, since rights don't exist outside of an agreement (contractarian?) or law.
I don't think the DPRK is evil. Propaganda is everywhere in every country. I also don't think countries who fail to meet my (close to the US) standards of rights are automagically evil either. Not a huge fan of using moral judgments on to governments or legal systems.
I only mentioned rights in the first place because the poster mentioned that having X was a privilege. And in my mind that was a duh. It's not a right, so of course it's a privilege.
I enjoy studying comparative constitutions across countries though, it gives some interesting insight to the different types of 'rights' out there. The UN charter of human rights is a good example.
>>872329
The norks don't really have that option, bruv
>>872338
Not my fault they picked a retarded political and economic policy. Free market may not be a solution for everything, but this is definitely a place where it's superior to the government option.
>>869624
How bad is it? How bad do you want it?
... newspaper reporter sent to concentration camp for accidentally misspelling the name of the "dear leader"
... Pregnant women having their babies cut out of them, and mothers being forced to murder their newborn children.
... Citizens being jailed for not cheering loud enough.
... Lots and lots more.
You can read the report here:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/north-korea
>>872335
>. I'm more like Kelsen, and try to study law as a legal positivist - and view rights as a legal fiction that exist for a very good purpose.
>But yeah, I DO think Governments issue rights, since rights don't exist outside of an agreement (contractarian?) or law.
I have to disagree with that. The fact that men have rights is immutable, by having free thought, free will, and free action, we have our natural rights. The legal fiction is actually the limitations we place upon our rights in order to facilitate what we believe to be a better society, the rights we give up, however, don't go away just because we, through social contract, agree to rescind them. Rights belong to the people and the people should reserve the right rescind or regain those right at their own behest. This is my fundamental issue with governments like the DPRK, is that they cow the people to believe that they have little agency, which is just fundamentally immoral to me, and don't get me wrong, I think the US and many European democracies have this issue as well, though to a lesser degree. The political discourse in the US has slowly but surely been moved to a less enlightened position, the Constitution has been enshrined as sacrosanct and as the source of men's freedom, but any bill of rights is just words on paper, and they have as much bearing on the natural rights of man as the ancient belief in a flat earth had on the shape of the world or geocentrism had on the motion of celestial bodies.
>>872335
>right to work
Arbeit macht frei brudda, preach
>>872387
I appreciate the non-insulty response <3.
We clearly just have different fundamental views on rights, which is fine. I don't think there are any 'natural rights' since I can't source them to anything - being 'immutable' just sounds to me like saying it's not there at all, it just exists conceptually.
My view of rights is pretty much just Kelsenian: rights are restrictions on inhibition (this assumes passive rights or negative rights, not 'assertive' or 'positive' rights). If you have a right to X, then a person cannot inhibit you engaging in X. So in my we don't add restrictions to rights for a better society, but rather we solidify rights (and create them) for the same reason. Now sanctions/delict (more fun Kelsen terms yeehaw) exist for the purpose of restricting behavior for a better society.
If we are trying to create a philosophy that exists for the purpose of promoting a better society – I actually think your view wins. That’s one of the biggest issues I’ve had when reading legal philosophy in general. I have my ‘actual view’, then my ‘preferential view’. Preferentially, your view wins, because the view itself acts as a protection to those rights that I, in my ‘actual view’ support. But just because I like it and just because it’s useful doesn’t make it ‘actual’ for the purpose of satisfying my noggin.
Another thing we’ll differ on is the Constitution. I’m not a pure originalist, but I definitely lean that way + textualism (not a huge fan of legislative histories in court ruling determinations).
Now amusingly, in the DPRK’s philosophical writings, they are HUGE about man ‘controlling his own destiny’, ‘independence’, etc. They view their socialist policy, and I include their cultural LAWS here, as free’ing mankind, or people, from things – particularly imperialism, greed, etc. I’m not saying that’s what it achieves. I have had many pleasant conversations with 'juche' thinkers who come across neither evil nor brainwashed.
>>872407
ohohoho.
Yeah, in their constitution they list a number of rights. I could paste the articles, but I'm in the middle of a 'intestacy' seminar so I'll rattle off the top of my head:
Speech
Healthcare
Education
both Residence and Travel
Relaxation/Breaks/time-off (have seen it translated/mentioned a few ways)
run for office/vote
religion
Science/art (there is a clause that basically says YOU CAN SCIENCE OR ART, GO FOR IT, you'll get benefits!)
blahblahblahblah
Of note, though, is the fact that while it details a right to work....There is another article that details a DUTY to work. So. Yeah.
What fun stuff is there to do in NK for a tourist? Is it possible to get wasted and go to a strip club or is it sitting in a mic'ed up hotel room waiting for the next state approved guided tour to begin?
>>872495
No strip clubs, alas.
There is a casino, foreigners only allowed.
All depends on what you mean by fun. There's rural stuff, landscape stuff, universities, shooting ranges, etc. Just general standard stuff I guess.
I'm still working on getting the okay to access their courthouses. I'm really interested in seeing how their legal system toys with codified law vs common law since they do have judges with an advisory. So far it's a no, and I've only got their universities + law profs, but....Fingers crossed.
A lot of people I know found the war museums fun. Mainly because it is a very...Different story.
>>872440
I guess we'll just have to disagree for now then, I have a lot of issues with some of Kelsen's theories, but I don't feel like delving into a debate on legal theory, especially not with the character limit on 4chan.
>Another thing we’ll differ on is the Constitution. I’m not a pure originalist, but I definitely lean that way + textualism (not a huge fan of legislative histories in court ruling determinations).
I think we'd agree more than you think, I more of an originalist and a textualist myself, my issue is with people's inappropriate reverence for the document. I tend to agree with many Hamilton and the Federalists oppositions to the Bill of Rights, though I understand why the Anti-Federalists insisted on it, in the long run I think it was a bad thing and led to people believe their rights came from the document rather than vice versa, though that might just be my own philosophical and political bias talking.
>Now amusingly, in the DPRK’s philosophical writings, they are HUGE about man ‘controlling his own destiny’, ‘independence’, etc. They view their socialist policy, and I include their cultural LAWS here, as free’ing mankind, or people, from things – particularly imperialism, greed, etc.
It's an interesting character of man that everyone thinks their way of doing things is the right and proper way of doing things, regardless of what political philosophy the ascribe to. I'd really honestly like to debate with a Juche proponent, it'd be educational.
>>872470
Relaxation like breaks during service or more like vacations?
>>872470
So when a tourist gets arrested for nothing, those inalienable rights a sacrificed for what?
And how do we know they don't just throw them into the garbage and sentence political enemies (poeple that used facebook) to the gulag?
PRAISE JUCHE
PRAISE KIM IL SUNG
GLORY TO THE ETERNAL PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
>>871865 >>872194
Y'know, I normally have to point this out in sci-fi threads concerning Star Trek: Enterprise verses Star Trek: The Original series, so I'm surprised I'm pointing it out here, but it seems relevant.
How something *looks* has little to do with how good it is. Kalma Airport may look pretty but the underlying tech there is decades behind what all of North Korea's neighbors have, as a result of North Korea's own policies.
Ultimately I know everything I need to know about North Korea by the fact that their soldiers have been observed to be, on average, notably shorter than their South Korean equivalents, despite the fact that there was no variation in height between the North and the South prior to the split.
This can come from only one thing - widespread starvation. In a country surrounded by net food exporters, North Koreans are starving, and have been for decades. The Kim family could fix this easily by loosening up and allowing more trade. But instead they prefer absolute control over the hungry masses.
>who come across neither evil nor brainwashed.
Yet they cling to a philosophy that is an objective failure. At best this makes them starry-eyed idealists; more likely, they're just stupid - in the same manner of an eloquent UFO-ologist - or in denial.
North Korean appologists are ridiculous.
There's nothing stopping people from getting inside that country, you know. In fact, they encourage it, the North Korean government builds lavish resorts and restaurants to attract rich foreign tourists that none of their own citizens could possibly afford.
Normal people HAVE gone to North Korea, normal people HAVE talked to the average North Korean citizen, and normal people HAVE confirmed that it's completely fucked up in there.
>>872520
Both. It ties in with the labor law, which specifies the working day as 8 hours, with breaks for 'laborious' jobs.
I bothered to grab it:
Article 71.
Citizens have the right to relaxation. This right is ensured by the establishment of working hours, and the provision of holidays, paid leave, accommodation at health resorts and holiday homes at State expense and by a growing network of cultural facilities.
>>872521
Theft isn't nothing.
I suppose we don't know that? But that doesn't convince me that that's what happens either. I tend to be the patient type who doesn't mind waiting for more information.
>>872519
If you manage finding one, it can be fun - but they are not very receptive to disagreement in general - since they have a very goal-oriented philosophy. And disagreement doesn't necessarily fit the goal.
Oh, cool on the textualism too! You were right, more than I thought we would! :>
>>872530
There is absolutely a difference between image and actual use/ability/potential.
I agree, they're behind on a lot of stuff. Welcome to sanctions, famine, and socialism.
Currently NK has been pushing for more trade, including food trade. They can't loosen up and allow trade when the trade restrictions are in place from the US and the UN. NK views this as economic warfare.
I agree, I think their philosophy is bleh, but I don't think they're stupid.
There is some amusing contrast you can see in Pyongyang between their new architectual aesthetic ('science street') and the older mass-produced juche architecture. One cares about image, the other not so much. One thing I've appreciated from 4chan is when posters contribute their specialized knowledge about things they see in NK pictures. Had a guy talk about bicycles, another about trains, etc. It's really helpful.
>>872549
>I agree, I think their philosophy is bleh, but I don't think they're stupid.
Wide-eyed idealists then. The point is that they're following an objectively failed philosophy, like anarchy. Anarchy should have died in Catalonia, yet it still has adherents who insist it would be the greatest thing ever.
>NK views this as economic warfare.
In effect, it is. Then again it takes two to engage in a 50-year-long armistice when one side has clearly lost. And, being a totalitarian dictatorship - a monarchy in all but name, really - the reforms needed to fix North Korea, or at least start fixing it, can all be implemented by one guy. The issue is...why would he? Life doesn't suck for *him*.
Personally I think we're gonna start entering a really interesting time, really soon, as all the generals and soldiers who actually fought in the Korean War start dying of old age. Unfortunately I can't help but shake the feeling that it's going to be "interesting" in the Chinese sense of the term...
>>872549
>Citizens have the right to relaxation. This right is ensured by the establishment of working hours, and the provision of holidays, paid leave, accommodation at health resorts and holiday homes at State expense and by a growing network of cultural facilities.
That seems like such an absurd thing to codify into law but I was just thinking if it's relating to East Asian culture. In the west, even going back to the days of slavery and peasantry, there has always been a concept of rest days and festival days, and in reality people would spend far less time working than they would in the modern day, so the idea of relaxation being a part of every day life is so basic it's like a commonly accepted absolute truth, but I wonder if some how East Asian work culture, both pre and post industrial revolution was more labor intensive, which made the concept that people need to take time off something that had to be codified in NorK law, or maybe I'm reading too much into it and it was just a PR law.
>>872549
>One thing I've appreciated from 4chan is when posters contribute their specialized knowledge about things they see in NK pictures. Had a guy talk about bicycles, another about trains, etc. It's really helpful.
Been to /n/ I hear.
>>872576
>Personally I think we're gonna start entering a really interesting time, really soon, as all the generals and soldiers who actually fought in the Korean War start dying of old age. Unfortunately I can't help but shake the feeling that it's going to be "interesting" in the Chinese sense of the term...
I think a lot of that depends on how Sino-American relations play out over the next few decades. A major reason for the DPRK's survival is that China rather enjoys having a buffer between it and the US pseudo-puppet state in South Korea, but what happens when China maybe doesn't care so much about having their own puppet, or if South Korea starts to break away from US influence, or if the US just loses interest in the region.
>>871848
Hmmm, that doesn't look like Red Star OS
>>869624
I read an interview with a DPRK defector who said that his moment of clarity was reading a state run news article that had a picture of a factory strike in South Korea. In the picture he saw a worker with a jacket that had a zipper and a pen in his pocket, which apparently would be considered luxury items in best korea for the so called underclass
So I think they are probably aware that they have generally been deprived of goods but may not be aware of the extent. I know there is an underground black market for things like DVDs and radios. They probably just dont realize you can have an awesome life in the west even if you are on welfare compared to theirs
>>869694
well, the huge majority of the people can't even afford food so less than 1% of the population as cars and what you could consider non-essential products.
also, >>869624 this is supposed to be the capital of the "empire" and looks like some backwater town in the middle of some irrelevant slav country
and there's no way to know what's propaganda and what's not - but believe me, one they when they stuck that pig in a pipe people will have an hard time beliving the cruelties that occurred during the whole dictatorship - it will make the nazis look like schoolboys and be on par with pol pot
>>870501
only a few north koreans IPs were seen worldwide
so only a few people (obviously fat cats, probably tied to the government) can use the actual internet and even those i'm pretty sure that heavily monitorized
but i'm guessing it's a good usage of money anyway... why feed starving people when you can post personal emails from major american movie studios?
>>872951
>>872753
The clear majority of what I’ve seen is windows run. I don’t know enough computer stuff to make any worthwhile distinctions beyond that – but within Pyongyang, windows is what you’ll see more than anything else. Redstar definitely used to be really common, but within the past few years that has changed. I don’t know anything about the Ubuntu deal.
>>872944
You’ll rarely see any internet outside of Pyongyang and even within it, it’s rare. You can find some internet in the universities though. The international university in particular, otherwise the Kim Il Sung university – which, if you’re curious, has a website and you can download some of their published papers from it: http://www.ryongnamsan.edu.kp/
Otherwise they're trying, food wise. If you're curious about how the famine affected their population, there's a really good data heavy paper that tries to figure out the trend, link here: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41857360
>>869624
it's bad, ok?
>>869694
I will say, it's not super clean. I've seen some candid photos that this dude took (you can find them with a simple google search), shit looks like a dump mang.
>>872951
They were using a modified version of Ubuntu (or maybe Debian) which took KDE and heavily NK'd it. I downloaded a copy out of interest, wasn't as interesting as expected.
>>873372
Pirated Windows I assume
>>873773
No idea. But given the newest sanctions imposed by the US, including:
456. How does Executive Order (E.O.) 13722 change the current sanctions regime?
E.O. 13722 blocks the Government of North Korea and the Workers’ Party of Korea; prohibits the exportation and reexportation of goods, services (including financial services), and technology to North Korea; and prohibits new investment in North Korea. The E.O. also adds new designation criteria, some of which are mandatory criteria from the North Korea Sanctions and Policy Enhancement Act of 2016. [Published on 03-16-2016]
Yeah, they're likely gunna need to pirate it.
Is it possible to get laid in Pyongyang or are you herded around like cattle by tour guides?
>>873968
I've heard ONE GUY who claims to have fucked a NK'ean. Just one.
Otherwise unlikely.
Maybe you need to secure government permission to do so?
>yfw Minder is in the same room watching you fugg.
>>874105
really really doubt that's true and if it was, it was NK government trying to get a semen sample
>>873372
Damn, that looks like the last 3DS Max version that ran on XP, the 2013 one. Now I wanna meet a NK student and talk to him about modeling. It'd really interest me to see how they know how to model. It looks fairly simplistic from the picture unfortunately.
Fun fact, the Norks owe Sweden 300million Euros for a thousand Volvos they bought but never payed back for.
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/05/north-korea-owes-sweden-eu300m-1000-volvos-stole-40-years-ago-still-using-267043.html
>>874155
replicate dem aryan genetics
>>874414
>>874155
They want to build the model juche superhero.
WE HAVE TO STOP THEM.
>>874228
Sweden cucked once again
>>869624
Whenever I see north Korean photos of "everyday life" it's all so eery, you just can't imagine the sun ever truly shining there, like even when there is so much beauty around you it all seems like a farce
>>874729
I´ve seen NK printed magazines, they are crudely photoshopped, specially in city aerial pics
>>874433
I'm really intrigued by this country, though I don't know much about it. I also don't care for normative judgements about it, as my interest is purely out of curiosity. Any good places to start finding reliable info about the place?
>>874823
>Any good places to start finding reliable info about the place?
Generally no, what makes it so interesting is that unless you live there then you can't for certain know much about it, no matter what you find someone who disagrees with you is probably going to refer to it as propaganda for one side or the other. Personally my fascination with the DPRK was started when I first saw the much mentioned Vice documentary, it's actually quite good despite being from a few years ago. From what I've heard, North Korea's authoritarianism on tour groups has died down a bit since the documentary but it's a good place to get the general idea of the inner workings of the country.
The book Nothing To Envy is also a good book to read as it explores the lives of people who lived outside of the capital Pyongyang, it gives a much better understanding of the everyday life of the peasant class of North Korea, and the lengths they will go to to escape.
There is also another great book called Aquariums Of Pyongyang which is based around the memoirs of a person who defected from North Korea after making it out of the Yodok detention camp, or concentration camp. Not only does it provide a great look into the life of not only the higher ups in North Korean society and the bureaucracy they deal with, but it also gives a pretty harrowing view of what life in one of these camps was/continues to be like. Along with this, the book is also packed with some small bits of history about the Korean War and what attracted people to move to North Korea.
Generally I would say these are all good starting places, however, in order to keep the DPRK apologists from criticizing me I will also recommend you read the writings of Kim Il-Sung about the Juche ideology.
>>874938
Cool, thanks for the help.
>>872240
Are you illiterate by chance??
>>872299
Rights don't come from the people or God.
Is this bait??
>>872341
China had it in 1960 with the government option, and still does.
>>872350
HRW is bullshit.
I can't believe people unironically believe it.
>>872521
>nothing
BAIT
>>872777
>pen
>luxury for NK workers
Was this interview in 1995?
>>872926
>can't even afford food
Umm how are they alive then?
>>872777
Life in the west is the best when you are on welfare.
>no job
>still have monies
>>872777
Don't believe everything defectors say. Many defectors earn a living by giving incredibly exaggerated/made up stories about their lives in North Korea.
Yeon Mi Park, go find her early interviews before she became a "celebrity" and she talks about how she grew up in Pyongyang, how she lived a fantastic life, would go camping, was a proud young pioneer etc, but then her father got caught embezzling money or something so they were exiled from Pyongyang, this is when her and her mother bailed by being smuggled across the border.
Her stories now are how everyone was starving too death, how people were eating bark off trees and grass, her famous claim that the "rivers were filled with blood and bodies", that she escaped with her mother naked, had to run from Chinese authorities and walked across the ENTIRE GOBI DESERT in a single night naked too evade authorities etc etc.
Oh she pays $40,000 speaking fee and was a lead witness in the UN human rights report despite her story completely changed and she's blatantly ripping off and exaggerating Arduous March stories from 1990s North Hamgyong defectors.
