Here's an ALTERNATIVE HISTORY question, how much better or worse would Russia have performed militarily in WW2 if it was still under Tsar rule?
inb4 >falling for the alt history meme
you want us to magically extrapolate 20+ years of social, military, economic, technological, industrial, whatever you can name development
>>>>>>>>/x/
>>862802
No, because Nicholas was just on a downhill. Give him 20 years Russia would have been stronk as fuck. 10/10 best leader
>>862802
Haha, I know right? Loads of interesting questions to make you think of how and why things occurred the way they did.
>>862802
how would the nazis take power or justify their invasion of russia if it wasn't communist?
>>862833
This
There would be no WW2 if Russia wasn't communist.
>>862802
>implying ww2 would have happened as it did without the Soviet Union
fascism and naziism were succesful because many people, including the elites feared communism, and believed these right-wing movements can stop it. there wouldn't be so much reason to elect Hitler or Mussolini without the Soviet Union as a threat.
if naziism still happened like irl: tsarist Russia would have probably lost, unless they industrialized like Stalin did. the main reason the USSR won was that they could move their industry to the east and produce like 5 tanks and planes for every German one.
>>862833
Gee, I don't know, how did they justify their annexation and/or invasion of Poland, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, and Luxembourg?
>>862802
awesome....especially when the Prussian officer elite defect to fight the Austrian Corporal alongside their cousins.
>>862962
>Poland
Stolen German clay
>Norway
Taking it before the Brits could invade from there
>Denmark
See above
>Austria
Germans
>Czechoslovakia
Stolen German clay
>Belgium and Netherlands
Circumventing the Maginot line
>>862802
The short-term outlook would have been much better for Russia, since the army wouldn't have been so mishandled in the field in the earliest days of the war. The strength of the Tsarist army had always been in its lower and mid-tier officers. I highly doubt we would have seen the mass encirclements and retreat into the interior that the Red Army suffered. It may, much like WW1, have been confined to a bloody but ultimately contained war of manoeuvre in Russian border territories.
In the long-term however it's not clear, as somebody else said, that they would have been able to muster the same industrial capacity to wage the kind of total war that was necessary to defeat Germany. It's also unclear whether or not they could have conjured generals of the same quality as the Soviet Union eventually did.
>>863003
>industrial capacity
Le "agrarian backwater that only the bolsheviks could industrialize" meme strikes again.
>>862985
>>Czechoslovakia
>Stolen German clay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>863026
Austrian, same thing.
>>863129
Germany was allied with the Soviets until 1941.
>>863180
Only to give Hitler enough time to beat France. He planned to break this alliance from the very beginning
Utter shit
The USSR had an entire reform and evolution of theoretical and practical understanding in the interwar period helped by weimar germany and the Civil war showed more ingenuity compared to the white forces.
An old fashioned Tsarist russia would be set up like a french army and wouldn't be nearly as flexible as the Soviet union turned out to be. Not to mention Nicholas could NEVER pull off half the longshot shit that Stalin did.
>>862962
But literally the only reason the Nazis rose to power was because they were btfo German Communists.
Suddenly communism isn't a thing anymore.
>>863482
the number one reason for the nazi rise to power was not fighting communism but the political and economic landscape of germany after the great depression
Why the fuck would Hitler attack an imperial Russia? Are you guys retarded? It makes no sense. If you read Mein Kampf, he literally goes full crazy saying how imperial Russia used to be ruled by Aryan German elites and now it's being ruined by a bunch of Jewish communists who don't deserve that land. If not for communist revolution, Hitler would never ponder invading Russia, period.
And alternative history is not dumb per se, but "let's change one major event and everything else somehow stays the same" kind of alternative history is monumentally retarded. I blame fucking retards like Stirling for this.
>>862802
Likely they would have performed much more poorly.
Pre-revolutionary Russia was industrially stagnant and insular, ruled over by an out of touch aristocracy that cared more about their own position than strengthening the country.
Under Stalin's 5 year plan, industry in Russia exploded tremendously (at a high human cost). And because the soviets dreamed of a violent world revolution with expansionist policies, they had a motive to rapidly increase their military resources.
Stalin's industrial reforms made it possible to build the supplies necessary to fight Germany one to one. Without those reforms, Russia would have been haplessly disorganized under the Tsars.
>>863493
The German Revolution of 1918-19 was not insignificant.
>>863509
Same reason ww1 germany attacked russia. Russia must grow larger. Also keep in mind hitler probably wouldnt even get in power without the red scare.
>>862802
Considering that Bolsheviks removed aristocracy and officers of German origin(or rather - German aristocracy and officers didn't want to have anything in common with them) it's likely that much worse since Germans are, by definition - a nation of lying backstabbers.
>>862985
>Stolen German clay
You've lost a war. Deal with it.
>>863011
The graph basically proves that communists industrialised Russia faster than Tzar, why did you put it here? The decline ends around 1922-1923 with the end of civil war and start of NEP and then proceeds faster than it did before the war.
>>863551
It was insignificant.
It's literally meme event only /pol/ and nazis care(d) about. It's on the same level as the revolt in Hochseeflotte, people chimping out from the elites trying to sacrifice them to save their face.
>>863560
There was a strong anti-semitic current in Russian empire, combined with the fact that the royal family was German, Russia would very likely not be Hitler's enemy, they'd be natural allies. Instead of fantasizing about lebensraum in Russia, Hitler would probably join forces with the Russians and try cucking the Brits and the French out of their African colonies which he would populate with German settlers. I'm not even mentioning that Russian empire was one of the main historical rivals of the Brits, the tsar would be fully on board.
That's not even counting that one of the main reason Hitler was even elected is because of many Germans seeing him as a savior from potential communist takeover of Germany. The idea of Hitler attacking the empire is so fucking laughable it hurts.
>>863600
Yeah, no.
Lebensraum is a concept older than Hitler. Imperial Germany had their Mittleeuropa whichwas basically the same thing.
>>863600
To my understanding tsar era russia didnt care much about colonies anymore since they werent very useful. Their biggest intrests were expanding toward the corpse of austro-hungary. Which is something germany wouldnt like much since itd mean the Russia would expand even more toward them.
>>863599
>It was insignificant.
You are an historically illiterate retard.
>>863614
>Mitteleuropa is the same thing as conquering Russian steppes
Are you memeing right now or literally retarded?
>>863620
Yes. Russia would help the Germans against the Anglos in exchange for being let to go berserk on Poland and the Balkans.
>>863600
Maybe he splits Eastern Europe with the Tsar.
>>863599
Maybe it was politically insignificant in that it was a complete failure, but it was pretty damn significant in that it gave a tangible face to the 'Bolshevik threat' and served as an example of Jewish subversion for the Nazis to point to.
>>863636
Yeah but Germany would have to be retarded to let them. Russia is a big empire with clear intentions of constantly expanding, Germany would have more motivation begging the brits and France to come help stop tsar russia further expanding. Its not like the anglos would tolerate further expanding of russia into europe. If Germany is passified then the next thing to keep down is Russia.
>>863637
Very possible. Note that countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were only created by the French and the Brits to have some allies on the eastern German border, they served no other purpose whatsoever.
>>863631
It's still against Russian interests, not to even mention pan-slavic imperialism which again is in opposition to the concept(as well as Russian Tzarist titles like "King of Poland" which gave him a good excuse for claims further way west).
Alliance with Germany meant that Russians will get Afghanistan, Iran and probabably that's all into their sphere of influence, alliance with France gave them opportunity to get Eastern Prussia, German part of Poland and what is nowadays western Poland. Yes, sure the ever-imperialistic Tzars were going to ally with Germany.
>>863622
Prove me wrong. It's the garbage of history, thing that happened in every country that lost the war once in a while. The communistic mood was caused only by the agitators who saw people angry and gave them better reason to be mad about the government.
>>863653
>Prove me wrong.
That's not how burden of proof works dumb dumb.
>>863653
>pan-slavic imperialism
Literally a meme. First it was pan-orthodoxy and liberation from islam, then it was pan-slavism, after that it was communism, now it's some kind of social conservatism. It was just an excuse for conquest and forging alliances, Russia didn't actually give two flying fucks about the Slavic nations of Europe.
>>863661
>It was just an excuse for conquest
And gave them legit reason NOT to ally with Germans but instead, to ally with France and British since they've had more to gain from that war.
There would be no WW2 if there wasn't communism..
Even if there was Russia would stay out of it, the Tsar would have no ambition to go all the way to Germany
>>862802
Wouldn't call it a meme, but it's worth acknowledging this sort of thing is only valuable for entertainment's sake. Not only is any answer to these questions completely impossible to verify due to the fantastic amount of information and variables involved with any situation, but particularly matters of geopolitics, it has no real merit beyond, again, a mental game.
Still, it is fun to think about a nuclear Russian Empire or a pan-American Incan hegemony or whatever the hell else.
>>863674
They would declare war to Germany
At the very least to contain Germany
>>862802
Kind of ironic that the situation Russia found itself in at the beginning of ww1 wasnt that different to the start of ww2 when it comes to supply and resources. Instead of lend lease they were dependent on loans from the UK.
>>866431
I would say it was incredibly different and you have no idea what you're on about
>>863551
"not insignificant" does not equal "number one reason"
remember that the immediate years following the revolutionary years (which also saw attempted coups or revolts by the sailors, by the military, and by the right wingers) the nazis were this close to being a political non-entity, so apparently people did not really care that much about this particular facgtor
the same goes for the impact of versailles and hyperinflation, again, the nazis were nowhere near power when these hit and when they were felt the hardest
i find it bewildering that people literally ignore like 15-20 years of some of the most tumultous political, social and economic development germany has ever seen, that they literally ignore the biggest cause in the radicalization of germany, the great depression, and instead cling to meme tier answers
>>862975
But anon, don't you know? Prussian Field Marshals do not mutiny!
>>866477
Imperial Russia was in no way ready at the onset of WW1, especially for the protracted war it would become. They had to make massive purchases of rifles, cartridges, projectiles, high-quality steel, non-ferrous metals, chemicals, and machinery. The deficiencies in the communication and transport systems, just like raw materials, parallel the needs of 1941. Aside from small arms and artillery it's nearly the exact same shopping list.
In 1914 they had to ship off most of their gold as security for British loans, and when British industry couldn't cope they bought goods from America through intermediaries, 500,000 tonnes of which was in the process of being shipped to Russia when the civil war began.
>>866980
>small arms and artillery pieces were a relatively small percentage in the total volume of deliveries [of lend-lease], Soviet industry was fully capable of providing the Red Army with high-quality artillery, but many items on the list of finished goods and materials requested from the Allies, produces the effect of deja vu: the explosives, communications equipment, automobiles, locomotives, rails, metals, chemicals, machine tools, wire, shoes and more calls into question the declared Soviet achievements in industrialization.
http://www.forbes.ru/mneniya-column/istoriya/288019-lend-liz-fakty-i-mify
>>862802
The only way the tsardom would have survived would have been by switching to a more constitutional monarchy.
At that point it's up to policy/people to decide whether Russia modernizes in time to fight the Germans.
They wouldn't declare war against each other, they would be allies and carve up Eastern Europe together.
>>862855
>implying that wars are fought for ideological differences, and that ideology is the ONLY singular driving force behind conflict/s.
Ideology is what drives conflict at surface level.
I have a question. Why the fuck do people imagine WW2 as this massive fight between good and evil, right and wrong, left and right, black and white? WW2 is probably the only war about which people romanticize: "We sure gave those Jew killers hell", "Rid Europe of fascism", etc., etc.,
I have an idea, WW2 is just like all other wars. We advance technologically, we have a war. Reason: someone needs to sell all of the machinery, weapons, ammunition, and medicine that they have made. Somebody needs to get rich. That's why when you look at WW2 and how massive corporate arms/medicine/clothing/vehicle manufacturers operated, you will see, they sold what they produced to everyone and anyone that was willing to pay.
That's my two bits on this.
>>867017
What would they carve up aside from Poland
>>862833
>muh lebensraum
How would the empire survive in this scenario?
