Was Judas' betrayal necessary to fulfill scripture, or was Jesus' crucifixion and death inevitable and someone would have eventually betrayed him and Judas just jump-started things?
Seems kind of unfair if Judas is basically born to be damned.
>>851353
He chose to kill himself. Had he not and just gone into exile or something, he could've seen the Resurrection (Jesus manifested in the middle of a room so he could probably do that to a guy in a cave or something), begged for forgiveness, gotten it and become a holy Saint.
But again, he chose to kill himself.
>>851353
>Seems kind of unfair if Judas is basically born to be damned.
Calvinism is the only way to actually reconcile omniscience with free will, and it is horrifying.
>>851392
>Calvinism is the only way to actually reconcile omniscience with free will, and it is horrifying.
lol no
>>851353
Book of Judas says that Jesus told Judas to snitch so he could die for our sins,but Judas originally didn't want to. But book of Judas is dubious at least, hertical at most.
>>851456
Every book of the New Testament and Apocrypha is "dubious at least, heretical at most" anyway. Maybe excepting Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
>>851484
True true, but book of Judas has only one copy and no one considers it cannon...
I kind of like the idea of good guy Judas tbqh familia.
Who cares? Jesus never existed.
>>851353
In islam it was Judas that got crucified and jesus that was saved...
It was actually Jesus's brother Isukiri who died.
Jesus escaped to Japan and lived to be 106.
>>851353
Been reading the gospel of Judas, Gnostic friend?
>>851720
Is this a meme?
>>851737
It's real.
>>851734
it's just a pic from google, I'm honestly just curious about the responsibility that Judas actually had if Jesus' death and betrayal was inevitable.
>>851740
Wow.
>>851720
Don't forget his other younger brother Hong Xiuquan, who followed him as far as China and waited a few centuries before starting a holy war against the Qing.
>>851484
not in the sense that the Gospel of Judas is
it's written by Gnostic heretics probably around 200 AD
>>851353
Have had the same thought myself. I've heard there were some gnostic sects of Christianity that had a weird reverence for Judas since he put christ's sacrifice into motion but I cannot confirm this for certain.
>>851395
go on...
>>851659
>>851857
Got something to say?
>>851881
How about you fucking fight me?
>>851353
>Was Judas' betrayal necessary to fulfill scripture
Can someone explain to me what this means?
>>851659
Does Carrier shitpost on 4chan nowadays?
>>851997
I'll fuck you up.
Jesus's crime was claiming to be the "King of the Jews" this is political statement and a challenge to the Roman government's ability to decide regional leaders. Rome had already dealt with a lot of Jewish revolutionaries.
We are told that Jesus caused a disturbance in the temple on pass over. Now for the Romans pass-over is the absolute worst day to have a revolutionary going around: it's a holiday that is associated with the Jews freeing themself from captors. So around that time the Jewish population became more agitated and would think that God would once again allow them to over throw their captors.
We also know that Pilate was known for lacking mercy. If the Roman authorities thought you were organizing a rebellion and going around calling yourself the king than that's a death sentence.
We can assume that Judas might have been the one to find Jesus, who at this this time would be a wanted criminal, however since he caused such a scene in the temple you might also assume others could recognize him and turn him in.
>>851353
Yes.
“And I said unto them, If you think good, give me my hire; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my hire thirty pieces of silver. And Jehovah said unto me, Cast it unto the potter, the goodly price that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them unto the potter, in the house of Jehovah” (Zechariah 11:12-13).
The Jews knew that Jesus predicted He would be killed by them on the Passover. So all they had to do was not kill Him on the Passover, and He would be a false prophet, worthy of death.
Jesus therefore told Judas He was aware of the conspiracy, and forced the conspirators to move quickly, or lose the chance altogether.
Jesus was crucified (not stoned to death) per the scriptures, on Passover, receiving His wounds in the house of His friends.
All according to prophecy.
>>853912
I don't see any need to assume anything, since the arrest scene in the Garden is laid out in the bible.
>>852635
There are hundreds of prophecies about the Messiah, the identity of the Messiah, what the Messiah would do, etc. Most Jews looked forward to the coming of the Messiah "to set things straight", i.e. make Israel the capital of the world.
They were looking for Jude the Hammer, and god Jesus the Healer. So they killed Him.
All of God's prophets are 100% true, all of the time, or they die. So if there was a prophecy that the Messiah would be betrayed, Jesus would have to be betrayed in order to qualify as the Messiah.
Zachariah states that he was sold for 30 pieces of silver (the price of a dead slave, a truly evil contract price), and Judas sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. Moreover, that 30 pieces of silver went to the Temple, they refused to put it back into the treasury, and bought a potter's field to bury peasants in. Unwittingly according to scripture.
If any prophet is wrong, he is not a prophet of God.
If any candidate for Messiah fails at any point to fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah, He is not the Messiah.
Jesus fulfilled all of them when they were ripe, and because He was rejected, and not heralded, many of them were put on hold. Those Messianic prophecies will also be fulfilled by Jesus, when they are ripe.
>>854089
I'm pretty sure the Jewish prophecies specifically state the Messiah will restore the Jewish city and make all the world respect the people.
> Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
> Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
> Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
> Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
So if the Jews were expecting the Messiah to allow them to rule the world that's because it's what their book says
>If any prophet is wrong, he is not a prophet of God.
Well than Jesus was not the Messiah.
>>853923
There is no prophecy in the Old Testament. Christians love translating ancient Hebrew however the fuck they want, plugging their ears and shouting that the Old Testament prophets actually are prophets is a classic.
Nobody knows what the word we translate to prophet means. It's caked in ideology and centuries of Christian interpretation.
>>854578
>Nobody knows what the word we translate to prophet means
This is true. Honestly old testament scholarship is very difficult because you are dealing with such an ancient culture. They way they would have used words would have been different than us.
I'll give an example I heard a scholar say. Sometimes in the old testament Moses is refered to as God, not "god-like" or "inspired by God" but to say he IS God. Many scholars think this means calling something God means saying it is divine. So when ancient Jews use the word God it doesn't carry the same connotation.
Trying to apply 21st centuary Christian meaning of words to 6th or 9th centuary BCE Jewish words is just stupid.
>>854563
Maybe read better. Because the Jews rejected their Messiah, some of the Messianic prophecies were put on hold; they were not ripe.
When they are ripe, Jesus will fulfill them. Jesus will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem, and rule the world. Israel will belong to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God will keep enough of those people alive in order to fulfill the promise that He made to Abraham.
Jesus is the Messiah, He is alive, and He is still doing the things of the Messiah. And one day at least 7 years from now, Israel will finally see Him descending from the clouds in glory, just as He told His accusers at His bogus trial.
>>854615
It's hard to tell the liars from the reprobates some times.
>>854666
>Jesus didn't fufill the prophecies
>But he will in the future
>Trust me
>He is alive
AHAHHAHA
>And one day at least 7 years from now, Israel will finally see Him descending from the clouds in glory
Than he will come and beat up all those people you dislike huh?
