For anyone interested in or puzzled by buddhism or meditation, I am dropping by to recommend this book. I picked it up at my uni's library and I have to say I am pretty damn impressed with it. It explains mindfulness (awareness) meditation in a very clear and direct way, with no hippie fluff interrupting it. Also, the author's prose is pretty amazing.
Also, buddhism thread.
I'll check it out.
any mediators here? I have been meditating for about a year now. Two years once the summer hits.
>>850397
What's up senpai.
who gets into jhanas ?
>>853201
I have experienced the first and second Jhana.
>>853204
are you conscious in these states ?
can you control something in these states?
how long does the effects last once you come out ?
how does the jhana relates to the three ?:
Impermanence or Change (anicca)
Suffering or Unsatisfactoriness (dukkha)
Not-self or Insubstantiality (anattaa)
do you see those three stuff in those states ?
>>853212
>are you conscious in these states ?
Yes.
>can you control something in these states?
Yeah sure, but you might wanna be more specific here.
>how long does the effects last once you come out ?
When you come out of Jhana, the bliss/rapture subsides, but there's this immense clarity, feeling of equanimity, ability to focus, etc. It's really nice. This can last minutes, hours, days even.
>how does the jhana relates to the three ?:
>Impermanence or Change (anicca)
Going up in Jhanas requires letting go of their pleasure and what not. I guess that's where impermanence comes in. It also makes you grasp less at sensual desire. Since I started hitting these states I stopped drinking for example. The shitty, muddled perception you get from drinking doesn't compare to meditative states. Drinking is a completely waste of time, and a hindrance to my meditation.
>Suffering or Unsatisfactoriness (dukkha)
Jhana is considered 'wholesome pleasure'. Pleasure born from 'seclusion of sensual desire'.
>Not-self or Insubstantiality (anattaa)
Tricky question. It makes you less susceptible to your thoughts, emotions, feelings. You don't get booty blasted as easily by them anymore, but the ego is still very much there, I guess. I've only hit first and second, so I suppose that only gets better as you start hitting deeper states.
>do you see those three stuff in those states ?
Eh, if you're not familiar with Buddhist thought you can kind of bliss out and leave it at that .
Meditative bliss states are actually very common across all kinds of religious/mystic traditions and they all have their own interpretation, so I don't know.
>>853346
>>853346
>Yeah sure, but you might wanna be more specific here.
on what things you have control ? How do you control what you can control ?
----
so you have seen the three characteristics, but you are not awaken ? I wonder what is there to do between the seeing of the three characteristics and the awaken moment. Is it just a matter of time spend in the jhanas ?
There is something integral to the jhana that I do not understand: is it obvious to move form the first to the second, form the second to the third, more so when you have heard what to seek ??
for instance, you said that you manage up to second jhana, but why can you not go to the third jhana yet ?
In my mind, and this relates to the question of what control do you have in the jhana, it must be automatic to go from one jhana to the other.
Also, how do you go from a high jhana to a lower jhana ?
>>853360
>on what things you have control ? How do you control what you can control ?
It's kind of like your mind is on auto-pilot. You don't have to do anything, but you can break free from it. There's no thinking and what not, if that's what you're asking.
>so you have seen the three characteristics, but you are not awaken
Rationally knowing the three characteristics, and having profound insight into them are two different things.
>for instance, you said that you manage up to second jhana, but why can you not go to the third jhana yet ?
>Also, how do you go from a high jhana to a lower jhana ?
Just because I am able to run 5km, doesn't mean I'm all of the sudden also able to run 10km. Jhanas are all progressively, and experientially different.
For example in the first Jhana there is what is called 'Vitakka' and 'Vicara'. Applied and sustained thought. However, in the second Jhana 'Vitakka', applied thought, ceases, and it becomes a more effortless experience.
Very crudely put the more profoundly the mind stills, the 'higher' the jhana.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf
I'd recommend you just read this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USJPI7MP3Tw
At the 8:25 mark he says:
Craving always manifests as tension and tightness in your mind and in your body. Always! Anytime you feel any tension in your mind or in your body there is craving. Craving is the "I like it", "I don't like it mind".
But the problem is, as soon as that craving is touched, right after that you have clinging, and the clinging are all of your thoughts and all of your opinions and all your ideas and concepts and stories about why you don't like that feeling. Or why you do like that feeling.
Clinging are all of (what) the thoughts are about, and the clinging is where the real big idea of this is me, this is mine, this is who I am grabs on. Right after the clinging then you have your habitual tendencies...
>>850397
7 years zen meditation practicioner here. First year was the hardest for me.
>>853201
Anyone who withdraws from the three poisons (greed, anger, delusions) experiences the jhanas. They are a gateway to deeper insight but ultimately don't have any real substance. An individual who is obsessed with jhanas is not liberated.
>>853212
My 2c:
>are you conscious in these states ?
>can you control something in these states?
Conscious of what? Control what? The deepening of jhanas generally means a reduction of sensations such as experiencing time, self or any objectification. There's some sense of awareness initially, but in the deeper jhanas you don't really control anything, you're just you, the breath is just the breath, it's just there, without any labels. The meditation "does" you more than you "do" it.
>how long does the effects last once you come out ?
There's no real effect from jhanas. Depending on the consistency of your practice, the insight of the fundamental aspects of reality will last. It becomes an indefinite and permanent thing eventually. Most buddhist practice involves applying this wisdom in our daily functioning.
>how does the jhana relates to the three ?:
>Impermanence or Change (anicca)
>Suffering or Unsatisfactoriness (dukkha)
>Not-self or Insubstantiality (anattaa)
>do you see those three stuff in those states ?
The jhana states offer insight because of the absence of movement, and how movement depends on mental objectification and differentiation, which is stressful, so it clearly shows the dukkha inherent in movement. They offer a direct insight in anatta because it becomes a tangible reality.
>>853585
>but in the deeper jhanas you don't really control anything, you're just you, the breath is just the breath, it's just there, without any labels.
so you make no effort to go from one jhana to another ?
this is what I do not understand : if you do not control anything as soon as you enter a jhana, how come there are various jhanas, what makes you go into higher level of jhanas? for going into 2nd jhana, do you just wait that vicara + vitakka disappear for instance ?
>>853601
No, plenty of sutras explain that mental mastery of the jhanas is effortless when proper insight is present. Effort and concentration is required in the beginning when practicing meditation, because we don't have the slightest clue how not to do anything with the mind - so we struggle trying to "quiet the mind" and other fruitless tasks. After that we cease doing things, trying to modify our state, chase after mental content and so forth; furthering this ceasing and "non-cultivation", which is how you go through the jhanas.
There are various jhanas because they delineate various perceptions that appear in this process, and the level of mental activity, where it is located and such, going from gross mental activity to more and more subtle and refined. Some schools don't pay much attention to the different stages but generally acknowledge the process of going from gross -> refined -> enlightenment.
>for going into 2nd jhana, do you just wait that vicara + vitakka disappear for instance ?
Waiting is a type of mental activity that we refrain from.
>>853931
>How long did it take you to hit those states
Hit the first Jhana in about 4 months of practice. I've even heard of people hitting the first jhana in as little as 2 months. There are of course the rare people that get into a deep state the first time they meditate, but those are few and far between, or people hitting jhanas on short (~10 day) retreats.
I'd argue the first jhana is pretty basic stuff, and if you're technique is on fleek it shouldn't take too long, although a traditionalist might argue that jhanas are super duper states that only happen after years of meditation.
>and can you hit them regularly now?
Yeah sure, I meditate everyday.
I'd also like to add that what constitutes as Jhana isn't necessarily agreed upon across all traditions, then there's the whole 'soft vs. hard' jhanas stuff, and so on; so for all intents and purposes, when I'm talking about Jhanas I'm just talking about blissful states of absorption loosely mapped onto Buddhist tradition. I'm not a Buddhist or anything.
I'm still very much a beginner meditator, though so what the fuck do I know.
>>854085
Interesting. In case I may have hit the first jhana at this point as well (I have been meditating for around 3 years). I cant think of any definitive experiences from meditation but sometimes I do leave my zafu feeling very relaxed and happy.
I spent a good deal of time questioning how to practice instead of actually practicing, so maybe thats why I havent made much progress. That is a lesson I learned about myself through meditation: I question myself too deeply.
>>854500
Oh, you'll know when you've hit Jhana.
It's like a full body orgasm, except not sexual or genital in nature.
I still find it pretty crazy that people can have these experiences by their own volition.
bui
nkjb
>>855539
Do you practice mindfulness routinely, or is jhana meditation enough for you?
>>858571
Properly practising 'mindfulness' should lead to Jhana. Although I like to refrain from using the word mindfulness, because it's been used to describe al sorts of shit by all kinds of people so it's a rather interpretive term these days, so you might want to specify what you mean by 'mindfulness'.
>>858625
>you might want to specify what you mean by 'mindfulness'.
General alertness in your daily activities.
>>858632
Ah, like that.
General alertness throughout the day helps with your 'formal' meditation sits, and formal sits help with alertness throughout the day, even more so when you're 'hitting' Jhanas.
But yeah, I very much try to remain mindful throughout the whole day. Occasionally I even use a mantra that I simply recite throughout the whole day which keeps you almost automatically anchored to the present moment. I started doing this after I read about certain monks/teachers doing it in the Thai Forest Tradition of Buddhism.
(http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Maha_Boowa_The_Path_to_Arahantship.pdf, ctrl+f 'buddho' to read about the practice as described by Ajahn Maha Boowa).
>>858805
Interesting, I will read into that.
I also liked that short book on the jhanas, im not sure if you posted that or another anon.
The book I started the thread with is very much about alertness and not so much about jhana. In fact, I think the author is one of the authoritarian types who dismisses jhana and believes that mindfulness is all that matters.
I dont agree at all with this new attitude on buddhist meditation. However, the heart of buddhist meditation does include interesting info so I dont totally dismiss it.
How do you guys feel about the book Zen Mind by Suzuki? Ive been reading it for a while, and I'm nearly finished. Most of the chapters seem to be going over a non-duality based way of understanding meditation.
>>858828
I just read the introduction of the book, and the author instantly mentions 'Satipatthana'.
I find that funny because the Buddha makes it quite clear that proper 'Satipatthana' can only be undertaken supported by the Jhanas.
Pic related is an excerpt from 'Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond' by Ajahn Brahm. Not only is it a pretty good meditation guide, the author also gives plenty of elaborations on Buddhist meditation principles supported by citing suttas. I'd recommend it.
>>859002
I will look into that book.
>I just read the introduction of the book, and the author instantly mentions 'Satipatthana'.
I find that funny because the Buddha makes it quite clear that proper 'Satipatthana' can only be undertaken supported by the Jhanas.
Exactly, the mindfulness movement from the 50s-onward feels forced, like it was a reaction from the other religions, an attempt to make buddhism more unique.
My personal problem with mindful meditation is that it feels dry. I try to focus on my feelings and what is happening around me, but I feel so bored. And if im having a shitty day, I only feel more shitty because I am focusing on my crap feelings instead of doing something about them.
At least with breath meditation I can focus on the breath and relax and feel more tranquil.
biump
So what exactly is the difference between genuine Buddhism and hippie crystal power stuff?
Fairly ignorant on this side of religion and would appreciate some insight
>>861722
buddhism is exoticism to westerns, exoticism which feeds their hedonism. the howl purpose of hedonism is to pollute non-hedonistic doctrines, so that the hedonists can claim to be less hedonistic than what they are: the hedonists love to pretend to be less animal regularly. The hedonists accept to be animals only in rare occasions, even rarer in public. Of course, this pollution is always explicit sooner or later and brings questions, from the hedonists, such as ''is it okay to drink alcohol in buddhism ? is it okay to do my usual activity that I love to do as a hedonist ?''
if you like to be disappointed when your pleasures fade, after you put much work to get the pleasures beforehand, if you enjoy boredom once you are acclimated to these pleasures and comfort which fades more slowly than most of other pleasures, if you despise pain to the point of being afraid by it, if you fear death, then, sure, continue to be hedonistic.
but if you understand that you bring your own unhappiness, day after, day in searching outside you to fill you and that what you find to fill you is exactly what brings you down, you understand that being stopping envy is the way to go. the good thing is that stopping envy avoids you to identify with the pain (otherwise the pain becomes suffering) and the price to pay is that you do not identify yourself with pleasures too (with the few pleasures that you manage to get).
the good news is that once you stop identifying so much with your sensations, then you reach a higher bliss, that in buddhism is called second jhanas (this is where the Christians go when they pray, and normies picture it as an orgasm like the famous statue of the nun shows).
this is the level of spiritual hedonism, where you experience pleasure of the consciousness.
religious people stop here, because, as buddhists say, they take what they feel as a contact with their deities.
Once yo understand that hedonism is bound to fail, due to the lack of control of events and what you think is your self, disappear the faith in the avidity towards pleasures and the aversion towards pains, the faith in your speculations to get control over what you think is your life.
this state is not reversible and makes you despise hedonism. you have seen the ugliness and the eternal disappointment with hedonism.
There remains to put into practice your new knowledge. you switch back to attempting to establish the equanimity, joy, contentment, benevolence in meditating to be still. Once you eliminate your faith in hedonism, you are happy.
in the dhamma, you even understand that, before nirvana, there is just as much degeneracy and mediocrity in those jhanas, than there is in material hedonism (= of the body, which is the hedonism of most of the humanity), precisely because you still crave the fruits of the jhanas, which are bliss, then tranquility and equanimity.
>>862177
[in the jhanas, you are disconnected from the 5 senses and from your mind, there remains only what is causally referred to as the consciousness and, when you are not hedonistic, the jhanas are the study of the consciousness by the consciousness itself. since even hedonists manage to get the jhanas, those people tend to dwell in them for the pleasures and other curiosities of ''knowing the true reality (of the sensations) and other fantasies.]
Sooner or later, you will understand that your emotions are not meant to be taken seriously (in order to be happy), ditto with your mind[=your imagination, your intellect] and its products [=your ideas, your inferences], ditto with your consciousness, ditto with the objects of your consciousness (the things that people call reality, or even worse, objective reality).
once you understand that even the jhanas are mediocre and you stripe your self of the envy of the jhanas (after you master them), you reach nirvana.
this is the dhamma. the dhamma is a user manual to establish irreversibly [<= this is the key word] equanimity+benevolence+joy towards, in using the vocabulary of ''self'', what you think is casually to your self, what you think is other people (and animals), at any place and at any time.
>>862181
the sole practice of the dhamma is really this quest for stillness [equanimity+benevolence +joy] towards whatever you feel (inside of you or coming form outside of you]. people tend to split the path into ''formal meditation'' [=the jhanas] and activities called ''informal meditation''[=practice of the morality], but sooner or later, you understand that this dichotomy is a choice and has no substance.
today, people tend to split the formal practice into
-tranquility, samatha, of the consciousness [where you make your mind quiet]
-insights, vipassna, [where you see that it is unbecoming, in order to be happy, to desire to take for personal and permanent what you always took for personal and permanent [typically your mind, your consciousness, your emotions, your sensations]
there are many books, talks and videos on the dhamma, so I cannot list all.
I give a bit of everything, in the school called the theravadan. this school is the most straightforward and does not insist on ''the vacuity (of personality and permanence) '', like the Zen buddhists and the tibetans love to talk on, but it remains the same (the practices preliminary to the jhanas [=the practice of morality in daily life] differ a lot though)
this is the first thing to take: watch videos of these retreats, especially the Q&A. this monk is famous and easy to follow. he is a good introduction, with some hippies flavors. he is quite rigorous in demanding that the jhanas are states where you no longer feel the 6 senses [people tend to lower the bar of these states, but they still call them jhanas]
watch first videos of talks during a retreat
https://www.youtube.com/user/AjahnBrahmRetreats/videos
>>862182
another first thing to watch:
a short video on the jhanas
[YouTube] What is Jhana? By Ven. Henepola Gunaratana Nayaka Maha Thera(Bhante G) (embed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lv0PFLZ12o
[YouTube] Bhante Gunaratana (1) What is samatha-vipassana? Part 1: samatha (embed)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaFOjJtEd2g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESQOi9djyaA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41NpmB2le3I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=div3NnAIoYU
and all the others videos from this series
The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html
Mindfulness in plain English, Bhante Henepola Gunaratana.
http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf2/Mindfulness%20in%20Plain%20English%20Book%20Preview.pdf
http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english.php
Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English: An Introductory Guide to Deeper States of Meditation, Book by Henepola Gunaratana
http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Beyond%20Mindfulness%20Book%20Preview.pdf
>This site is dedicated to the teachings of Venerable Ayya Khema (1923-1997), a Theravada Buddhist nun ordained in Sri Lanka . Her teachings (which were prolific) describe simple and effective meditation methods for development of calm and insight, for expanding feelings of loving-kindness, compassion, joy and equanimity towards others, and for overcoming obstacles to practice. She also gives detailed and lucid instructions for the meditative absorptions (jhanas) which provide access to higher states of consciousness, the way the Buddha himself practiced.
http://ayyakhematalks.org/
>>862183
>insisting on the setting the samatha first, this book recast the use of the mindfulness through the three angas, [swift introduction to the various sources PLUS good introduction to ''mindfulness'']
A History of Mindfulness Bhikkhu Sujato.pdf
http://santifm.org/santipada/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A_History_of_Mindfulness_Bhikkhu_Sujato.pdf
>Moment to Moment Mindfulness, A PICTORIAL MANUAL FOR MEDITATORS, Achan Sobin S. Namto
http://vipassanadhura.com/momenttomoment.htm
I had a similar experience at Forest Refuge in Barre in 2011. Won't go into details here, you can read about it if you like in a memoir I wrote, Silicon Valley Monk, available for free at Smashwords.com in all formats or at Amazon. Even though I had no history of mental illness, I ended up in the psych ward of the local hospital. For about three months afterward, I took half and quarter dose antipsychotics and saw a psychiatrist.
In my case, the periods of wierd reality last for about a month after a really deep retreat, then disappear, usually very quickly. I don't work in a profession that can tolerate long absences so I can't take that time off by myself, though some strange behavior is OK for a short period of time. If I don't go very deep, then there's no problem, so in a sense it is controllable, though that is somewhat disappointing, since it limits the depth of insight I can develop.
I'm encouraged to see Daniel's list of resources. Back in 2011, the only person I knew of who was working on the problem was Willoghby Britton, and she had just gotten started. Most Buddhist meditation teachers don't talk about the possibility of going crazy, but the Sufis do. One Sufi saying lists the benefits and obstacles on the spiritual path, and the last thing listed is the possibility of losing touch with reality. There are stories of Sufi sheiks being commited to a mental hospital and having their students visit them there. While there is some of the same in the "crazy wisdom" tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, I'm not aware of any modern teacher who knows much about it.
>>850397
S.N. Goenka Vipassana courses are top-notch
Who /zenpsuedointellectual/ here?
>>862821
I study and practice zen and I know a lot about it but I conceal my power levels because I dont want to come off as a pseudo-intellectual douche.
>>849947
Heard it takes about 1000 hours of practice to get to the state where you can reliably see "through" conciousness and the delusion of self.
That true? It really takes that long?
>>864787
I think it takes 1000 hours or more to get good at any skill.
more jhanas stories
>>864787
it depends how much you cling to your avidities and aversions
