Do you think excessive pride and nationalism over one's country is stupid? I mean, don't get me wrong, if some dipshit other country invaded mine I'd volunteer for the military immediately and defend my home. But for someone to say I am proud to be American, British, Canadian, whatever just feels really stupid to me. To get upset if someone criticizes my country seems stupid to me. The fact that a lot of people find the burning of their country flag one of the most offensive things ever seems stupid to me.
Maybe I'm autistic. In today's modern world, does nationalism have a place?
>>1045077
>Execesive to the point of fanaticism
Yes, absolutely.
>Having pride in your naionality
No, not at all, it's just tribal mentality that manifests itself in different forms, it's completely natural.
>>1045085
>Unironically using black and white fallacy
>>1045085
>Nationalism has never caused rape
>>1045077
nationalism is inherently stupid and reserved only for feeble minds.
nationalism had its place in history. some of the greatest people to ever be born were incredibly passionate about their country, their ethnicity, their traditions, their culture et cetera.
but in this world we live in, in the second decade of the 21st century, all borders are completely arbitrary, all cultures are more linked and intertwined when they have ever been and being born somewhere does necessarily not mean you'll spend the majority of your life there.
though in my personal opinion nationalism has always been stupid. I could never take pride in something that was not at least done by someone very close to me. even then, I have a hard time being proud of others, pride is really something reserved for one's own achievements.
>>1045085
That's not what he said.
>>1045077
You can be proud of your countries ideals, battles and traditions (since these are collective efforts), however these are things you yourself haven't accomplished. I think being proud of America, being one of the first countries to figure out a balance between the power of individual rights and the power of government, is a good thing and serves as a reminder when these rights are infringed upon.
The real retardation lies in being proud solely in something you haven't accomplished yourself and being proud of that first and foremost. Individual accomplishments triumph collective accomplishments on a personal level, while collective accomplishments triumph individual accomplishments in terms of scale.
>>1045093
>multiculturalism doesn't work
Ah yes, impressive meme
My office is full of people raised in France, Israel, India, China and South Africa. We all seem to get along fine.
>>1045113
>all borders are completely arbitrary
Stopped reading there
>>1045121
Nice anecdote. Have some more?
>>1045147
No evidence was provided for the initial point, besides, you think I'm going to try to have some kind of reasoned discussion with this guy?
>>1045140
>>1045085
you're a fucking ape, go drink some bleach
>>1045077
> excessive
Define what you mean by excessive. Excessive to me is completely ignoring your countries mistakes and not learning from them and trying to excuse current problems that your country has.
Nationalism to me is not in any ways dumb though. The accomplishments of our greatest individuals are not theirs alone. The scientists depends on the food brought by the farmer, the electricity provided by the power company and its engineers, the water provided by the municipal government, the house built and maintained by the construction worker etc.
Today its gotten fuzzier due to international trade and globalization, but even foreign goods still have to be bought with the hard work of individuals in the country.
So saying that you're proud of your country is not wrong.
>>1045161
If you actually cared you'd do something
>>1045156
Just ignore him.
>>1045125
so you read like half my post? great, thanks for sharing..
>>1045117
well said.
>>1045140
>During new year's eve, over 2000 girls were raped and harassed by immigrants in Cologne.
Anfang April 2016 hat das NRW-Innenministerium Ergebnisse aus der Untersuchung der Kölner „Ermittlungsgruppe Neujahr“ veröffentlicht. Laut dem Bericht wurden 1218 Opfer erfasst. Rund die Hälfte von ihnen wurde Opfer von Sexualdelikten. In 185 von 529 Fällen wurde gleichzeitig mit der Sexualstraftat auch ein Diebstahlsdelikt angezeigt. Dazu wurden bislang 153 Tatverdächtige ermittelt, darunter 149 Ausländer, viele von ihnen Asylbewerber und Migranten mit ungeklärtem Aufenthaltsstatus.[20]
(wiki)
Knapp sechs Wochen nach der Silvesternacht von Köln ist die Zahl der Anzeigen wegen der sexuellen Übergriffe auf Mädchen und Frauen rund um den Hauptbahnhof weiter gestiegen. "Uns liegen bislang 1054 Strafanzeigen vor", teilte Ulrich Bremer von der Staatsanwaltschaft Köln der "Welt" auf Anfrage mit.
In knapp der Hälfte der Fälle (454) geht es demnach um sexuelle Übergriffe. Mittlerweile hat die Polizei 59 Tatverdächtige ermittelt – darunter mehrheitlich Marokkaner und Algerier. 13 Personen sitzen derzeit in Untersuchungshaft.
(welt)
Das Innenministerium in NRW erfasste in dem Zusammenhang 1.527 Straftaten.
Demnach gibt es 1.128 Opfer von Straftaten, davon 626 von Sexualdelikten
Insgesamt 153 Tatverdächtige wurden ermittelt, 149 davon sind Ausländer. 68 hatten Asyl beantragt.
(die zeit)
you're a lying snake piece of shit. out of the 1000 crimes commited (most theft or similar) about 400-500 were supposed to be sexual harassment, very few of those rape.
I hate your kind. spreading misinformation is worse than spreading diseases.
Leave it to /pol/ to turn a discussion about nationalism and the concept of pride to STOP THE IMMIGRANTS FUCK ARABS.
>>1045188
The only thing you're running away from is some retard that shits up this thread.
>>1045204
Nationalism is just dick-waving, a feels good ideology. I'm not saying it's bad since you should have pride for your nation but if you realized, the world functioned just fine before the French revolution. You can fix issues like immigration using rational decisions.
>>1045077
>I'd volunteer for the military if my country get invaded.
>I'm not going to get mad in the slightest that my country's flag which is the representation of my country's ideas, history, blood, heritage, culture and unity is burned in front of me.
Is this bait?
>I'd join the military of my country.
But
>I won't in the slightest; defend against or take offense to my countries flag getting burned.
>>1045252
One is a physical attack where my home is being destroyed, people are being killed.
One is some edgy guy saying he hates my country and a symbolic gesture of how he dislikes it.
What's hard to differentiate?
>>1045232
Read the rest of my post you dip. Nationalism never did anything strongly positive for a nation besides having pride. Once again, states were ran perfectly in the past as rulers used rational and skilled decisions to do things. Hitler and the gang made nationalism something that is crutial to a nation's development.
>>1045266
Which to add on to the last point, gives a false sense of positivity since people like you believe Hitler is a person of guidance.
>>1045261
How can one man truly defend his country if he is not willing to at least defend the ideas of it?
If your country is invaded you are going to instinctively protect your property and friends, and you don't have to join the military. You could run away or be, side with the invaders, or join in a guerrilla militia.
Joining the military to defend your country right away however signifies you care about your country and the general ideas of it. The flag represents the general ideas yet you are not going to express any defense (Not even a single comment, or frown) to it being burned?
>>1045184
>Libtards
You're a fucking American aren't you?
>There are people ITT who unironically confuse Nationalsim with Patriotism
>>1045296
They use to mean the same prior to the Franco-Prussian war.
Nationalism, which is essentially patriotism at the cost of other countries, is sometimes warranted.
>>1045113
It seems your mindset is the fault here not the ideolagy. You cannot appreciate your culture and history as an extension on yourself. that might be because you dont have a very historically prominent culture or you have replaced your original culture with another countries. or both.
>>1045121
>My office
Thats the key word here. In your office, and in most work enviroments, it mostly consists of people who share your goal of working and thus sustaining a living. Tolerating one another because if not, being fired is very probable.
Although saying this, i feel i agree diffrent cultures can co-exist. except the only way it can be harmoneous is when each culture has its own place to grow and thrive. hence, nation.
However the real issue is ethnicity. Multi-ethnosism doesnt work. Unless indivduals discard there culture or its simmilar to the host, in which your not multicultural are you?
TLDR: If you have a HR department, your required to get along. willingly or not.
>>1045140
>Asia for Asians
>Africa for Africans
>Europe, North America and Australasia for WHITES!
>>1045301
Used*
>>1045168
Are you on drugs?
>>1045287
>not willing to at least defend the ideas of it?
I said I wouldn't get upset at a symbolic gesture of hated toward it.
My country has its flaws. I like things about it, I don't like other things about it. If a guy burning a flag wanted me to talk to me about it, sure. I'd like to see his points and share mine.
Tell me why I need to be emotionally upset to talk things out.
>You could run away or be, side with the invaders,
I never said I hated my country. I said I don't hold excessive pride towards it nor do I allow it to be my sole identity enough to be personally offended by flag burning.
>guerrilla militia
Why the fuck would I do this? My military has specific weapons to defend my country. Why the fuck would I join a bunch of militia unless said military was destroyed?
>(Not even a single comment, or frown) to it being burned?
Unless he wanted to talk to me about it, no, not really.
Why should this person's opinions about my country affect me emotionally, besides making me ask myself "Does he really have proper justification for this much hatred and should I look at my country in another light, or is he just being an edgy memester?"
>>1045184
>But you're too busy swallowing Akhmed's semen down your throat to give a shit.
You were jacking off when you typed this, weren't you?
>>1045305
>It seems your mindset is the fault here not the ideolagy
no one was talking about ideology.
>You cannot appreciate your culture and history
you're wrong. it's the exact opposite to be exact. I think German high art, being music, fine arts, architecture, but especially theatre, literature and cinema produced amongst the greatest pieces of art any nation has ever brought forward.
>as an extension on yourself
I assume you mean as an extension "of" myself? If so you are correct. I could never see any of that as an extension of myself. that strikes me as nonsensical.
>that might be because you dont have a very historically prominent culture
I don't think a culture like that exists outside of very few tribes where the oral tradition still rules.
>or you have replaced your original culture with another countries
there is no original culture. I am a mixture of German, Austrian and Czech ancestors, who in return were Prussians and servants of Austria-Hungary who in return were.. and then we get to the Germanic tribes.. and then we get to the mass migration period. Ad infinitum.
you are deluded if you think "culture" is held back by ethnicity or borders.
>>1045085
Pol retard is her
>wahhh i cant get girls but i see black with girls
>fucking niggers
>>1045140
Asia and Africa ban other races from immigrating?
>>1045121
>anecdotal evidence
>>1045113
>borders are arbitrary
you want to take in all those rapefugees into your house? By all means go ahead, but keep them the fuck out of my neighbourhood you fucking cunt.
>>1045359
>you want to take in all those rapefugees into your house?
Does one individual have all the resources to feed and shelter millions of people? What a stupid question. You need to learn to think critically instead of just vent your incoherent rage everywhere.
there's nothing wrong with nationalism.
we damn well should put our own country in front of foreign nations. Why should I care about them or their problems when we have our own issues?
>>1045370
I don't literally mean all of them you fucking mongoloid.
I don't want refugees in my neighbourhood, they shit up everywhere they go, if you want to take 5 of them in yourself, go right ahead, but keep them the fuck out of my town.
>>1045296
Nationalism is merely the belief in nationhood, specifically your own
Patriotism is the service rendered to your nation
>>1045359
lol you're fucking crazy dude, or eastern european.
>>1045398
>not wanting to take in refugees makes you crazy
jesus christ, what?
>>1045327
> Nor do I allow it to be my sole identity enough to be personally offended by flag burning
Anon you jnow the reason why people get offended by their flag getting burned? The flag of one is not only the idea of ine's country and history; it is also next to the country is the accomplishment of several million individuals who worked tireless hours from small jobs to ones of high offices ti make your country what it is.
Even you are a part of this united accomplishment; a small individual who whether or not he knew it put work making his country what it is.
That is something to be proud of; not to excess, but even a little. When a person burns a flag they are burning the individual and united accomplishment kf many Anon. This is why people become upset and you should show some emotions to it.
>>1045389
That is exactly what you said though? You're not the brightest are you?
>>1045347
yeah dude, didn't you know only white countries have people of more than one ethnicity?
>>1045403
It's the false dichotomies you present, and the fact that you think all Middle Eastern immigrants are rapists based on a handful of incidents.
>>1045077
You are partly right, however normies will judge you by how "confident" you are and how you react to insults, it tests you, it affects how people treat you. When Margaret Thatcher cut the military budget it was seen as a sign of weakness by the Argentine junta for instance.
>>1045121
How efficient would the business be if everyone spoke a different language? What if the Frenchman never washed, the Israeli tried to circumcize other guys in the urinals with a pair of scissors, the Indian just took a shit wherever he felt like it, the Chinaman kept tripping up because of her foot bindings and the South African refused to serve negro customers?
Culture is just as irrational as nationalism, the desire to preserve a culture entails preserving the bad ideas of that culture alongside the good ideas. If you are OP that is kind of hypocritical.
The point is to collect all the good ideas and create a superior culture.
>>1045410
oh jesus fucking christ dude, seriously? I wasn't being literal, you are beyond retarded if you honestly believe that I meant you should privately take in millions of refugees.
>>1045417
so we should just accept more of them? Because not "all" of them are rapists and murderers? How about the fact that Islam is completely incompatible with Western values? They don't tolerate gays, they treat women like shit, they don't believe in freedom of speech or expression, they don't assimilate. Why the fuck should we allow them anywhere near our nations?
>>1045140
Am the only Euro who lives in a major city and never sees any of this shit.
>>1045434
what city and country?
>>1045359
>keep them the fuck out of my neighbourhood you fucking cunt.
guy you replied to here.
I literally live less than a mile away from one of the biggest refugee camps in entire Saxony. never had any problems.
>>1045433
Why are you quoting me? I didn't say anything about Slavs.
>>1045428
>the Chinaman kept tripping up because of her foot bindings
oops (inb4 this is used as an excuse to ignore my argument)
>>1045434
You're clearly just a Jew shill. Muslims behead people in London streets daily, cuck.
>>1045441
why doesn't this board have IDs? Removing flags I understood, but they should have kept IDs.
>>1045440
you better hope it stays that way, that shit's a timebomb waiting to happen.
>>1045466
>any second now, the SANDNIGGERS will take over and rape your daughters!
>Trust us, any second now.
>any second now...
>>1045441
>"Eastern europeans"
Whatever, do you honestly only have semantics to lean on now that your double standard is showing?
>>1045478
nice fallacy, I said none of that. But you are seriously retarded if you honestly don't believe that the camp won't be a problem at some point.
>>1045428
there is no "superior" or "inferior" culture, there can never be one.
however I do agree that the desire to preserve culture is senseless. culture is always fluctuating, so clearly it is impossible to preserve.
I see you are not a traditionalist. I think it's a great idea to get rid of unnecessary traditions, norms and rules, too. clearly though the reason for this is not to breed a superior culture, but to increase everyone's "quality of life" as much as we can.
>The point is to collect all the good ideas and create a superior culture.
see here, you are ascribing something "good idea" to one "culture". this just does not work out in the real world. ideas often pop up in different places at roughly the same, or sometimes completely different times.
a culture cannot have an idea, a human being can, or maybe even a group of human beings can. the Germans were not the first Europeans to invent the printing press, it was Gutenberg who did.
>>1045484
That wasn't my post, shit-for-brains. Do you think every anonymous poster who disagrees with you is the same person?
>>1045493
uh nah, you can have inferior cultures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JXrDwtiqQs
I'd rather live in the west than in Africa or the middle east
>I see you are not a traditionalist. I think it's a great idea to get rid of unnecessary traditions, norms and rules, too. clearly though the reason for this is not to breed a superior culture, but to increase everyone's "quality of life" as much as we can.
true that
>>1045085
>pride over ones nation is foolish
>that means I want blacks to rape my daughters
fucking kill yourself. Faggots like you are the worst and ruined this board. I'm what most would say a right winger, quite extreme by modern standards. Soon some other /pol/tard will call me a cuckservative for calling you out on your shitty assumptions. Stay on this board if you will, but at least put some effort into explaining why nationalism is important rather than your shit
>>1045497
What did you expect me to think with that response time and no id's?
Either way it's irrelevant because you were still defending his assertion with that response and don't give me that "it still wasn't me!!1" >>1045514
You should take context into consideration especially without id's present.
>>1045466
I've been here for almost two years. I'm certain the racewar will start any second now...
>>1045482
>Look at crime and rape statistics in the EU
care to "enrich" me with some of those statistics?
by the way, please don't post those faked swedish rape statistics, I've seen that picture too many times. surprise me.
>>1045488
of course the camp is a problem. people of different ethnicities are lumped together with very little personal space. they are often tired, hungry, hopeless. just a statistical fact: over 98% of refugees from balkans will be sent back home. how frustrated do you think those people are?
conflict will always arise under these circumstances. mostly it is not violent conflict. though of course violent conflict arises, too. the thing is: it is mostly directed at the other refugees. I read the local news daily and never have I heard of any attacks on Germans here, even though the refugee camp is located in a housing complex.
>>1045525
it's beyond annoying that there are no IDs here
of all fucking boards that need them and this one doesn't have them.
>>1045525
Ignore that second quote it was a misclick.
>>1045525
You were proven wrong. Just stop posting, loser.
Nationalism is a spook
You can have a perfectly cohesive, strong nation without nationalism as long as you eliminate egalitarianism and work towards a merit-based society.
>>1045514
>uh nah, you can have inferior cultures.
>[youtube video]
I don't really care for your memes but I appreciated your last post.
the video was extremely funny to me, the Youtuber seems oblivious of European history.
>>1045121
That's because you are working with something that brings you together. Anyone can get along if there's a purpose for doing so. In our individualistic society we no longer feel empathy to strangers, especially those of different cultures. Hence the amount of racists who are racist to everyone except their non-same race friends or co workers, because they share something in common.
Tribalism is natural, humans will always find groups to stick together with
>>1045544
so you are saying that modern western culture isn't superior to little boy buggering, tiger hunting, shitting in street cultures?
>>1045493
>there is no "superior" or "inferior" culture, there can never be one.
How do you define superiority?
Generally speaking, if a cultural/ethnic group's technological and artistic achievements are superior in both number and quality/complexity to another group's, one can say that the first group's culture is "superior".
>>1045184
Shitposting on 4chan does not do anything
>>1045437
London. Granted there are a lot of brown people but everyone gets along and things are normal. Before someone says you can get mugged by blacks in a bad part of town, you can get mugged by whites in the bad part of any town as well.
I've lived in Liverpool its much worse than London and thats the white people.
>>1045523
What are you, a Classic liberal who believes in nothing but material wealth and the right to unfettered movement of capital?
Nationalism simply put is a collective identity based on a peoples self defined "nation" (which can be generally understood to be a community of communities), this can include may different common signifiers; religion, ethncitiy, civic, language but generally they are all unified by a collective counsciousness of historical narrative and experiences. For example, Nationalism in the Caucasus exploded after the USSR collapsed because of the underlying resentment of the minority Caucasus's nations felt repressed under the hand of Russian domination dating dating to the empire. Nationalism does not necessarily imply "superiority" over another, merely a defination ones own identity
>>1045579
i'm actually going to London this year with my Norwegian friend (American here)
What should I expect? We planned on going to the Imperial war museum and the RAF museum. Anything else you recommend?
>>1045539
>strong nation without nationalism
This is an oxymoron, without a conscious or subconscious nationalism a nation ceases to exist. Unless you meant to say State
>>1045588
Natural history museum, science museum.
>>1045607
Replace nation with "large-scale association of individuals" then. Not necessarily a state.
>>1045551
that is exactly what I am saying my friend. just consider this:
>thousands of children abused by the catholic church; corruption; the affairs of the Vatican State
only two years ago a bishop from the province where I grew up (won't tell) was accused of tax fraud. how much could a bishop from a province in southern Germany make, anyway? he's not a big fish? welp, it was just about 450.000€. half a million. this is merely an anecdote, bigger fish will be caught.
(sounds pretty similiar to what the person in the video was talking about. pederasty is common in almost every single grand-scale religion on the entire planet.)
>we are putting antibiotics in our meat, creating germs that our current medicine cannot handle
>similair behaviour have caused MCD and Swine Flu
>large scale industrial farming is quite literally making hundreds of local species extinct
>the same goes for agriculture, too
we do not care for our local species anymore; as long as our food's cheap we'll gladly kill biodiversity.
is creating more endangered species not worse than what the chinese are doing?
(it is not, at least in my opinion. killing of sharks, tiger and whales are crimes that can never be justified with "culture".)
of course I could go on and on for centuries, but it does not lead us anywhere. the point here is:
you can always pick out a particular thing, attribute it directly to a certain culture (mistake no. 1) and then generalize (mistake no. 2) this behaviour onto a concrete ethnicity.
as I said a million times cultures are fluctuating. both koreans and japanese "adopted" almost all of the heritage they are so proud of from the chinese, yet we see them as holistic, standalone cultures. however shia muslims and sunni muslims are completely different, yet we barely ever differentiate there.
our understanding of culture is distorted by our notion to sort everything by phenotype (ethnicity) and borders (nation states). this is our limited way of thinking.
>>1045622
I'm guessing you're some sort of Stiner-esque anarchist. I will only say that Nationalism is a global phenomonon and represents humanity's need for a collective to emcompass the individual. Anarchism will never satisfy human desires, there will always be those who yearn to organise and serve in the needs of a collective and it's legal extensions (the state)
>>1045576
>Generally speaking, if a cultural/ethnic group's technological and artistic achievements are superior in both number and quality/complexity to another group's, one can say that the first group's culture is "superior".
this is clearly correct. the point I am making is that it is impossible to attribute an achievement to a culture, since culture is a process, not a material object, not even an immaterial object like a state. everyone's understanding of culture differentiates wildly.
to me, everything that formerly was prussia is not very "German", but there are thousands of other people on /pol/ waiting to tell you the opposite. just as an example.
are they part of the German culture? were they part of the German culture? (clearly yes). why are they no longer a part? if they are no longer a part, how can they be responsible for German achievements?
are all Chinese to be proud of "chinese achievements", or just the Han Chinese, as they are the true Chinese? see how arbitrary all of this is? how are Japanese and Koreans not at least partially "culturally Chinese"? In reality they are both part culturally and part ethnically Chinese.
>>1045638
I understand what you are saying, and I am aware we have massive issues here in the west. Like the antibiotics in the food and large scale subsidized farming. But I and many others would never want to leave the west to live in places like the ME or Africa, where they tolerate many things that are unfathomable here.
Now of course you can't generalize entire cultures based on a few examples, but when you dig a bit deeper and see shit like how middle eastern treat gays and women, it's not a culture I would want my family raised under.
While culture is indeed fluctuating, such as with Japan, where their culture changed rapidly following the end of WWII, where they adopted many American values due to the occupation and constitution.
Things can indeed change for the better, for all cultures, but it's not an easy fish to fry. We still have massive cultural differences between the west and ME, and within the ME they have those massive differences between Shias, Sunnis, Christians, Kurds, Jews, etc.
We still need borders in order to preserve our culture, and they needs their borders to keep their culture, there isn't anything wrong with this, some of us will never get along and there isn't really much we can do about it. All we can do in the meantime is preserve our culture and leave them alone with theirs.
>>1045654
Did the "association of individuals" give it away?
>humanity's need for a collective to encompass the individual
This collective exists as a way for the individual to thrive. There is no need for a higher meaning as long as all individuals who are part of the collective can benefit from its existence.
>Anarchism will never satisfy human desires
Why do you think that?
There will always exist people who desire organization and authority, but the idea of a union of egoists isn't fundamentally incompatible with hierarchical systems.
I agree that most forms of anarchism will probably never be implemented successfully, but "anarchy" is a vague term.
I like the idea of nationalism, but put into practice it can potentially be almost as bad as communism and can often result in widespread, national delusion.
Nationalism can also be very destructive for a nation, think the UK with Scotland wanting to leave or Yugoslavia breaking up due to ethnic nationalism corroding the feeling of unity. More often, nationalists have to literally make up history to justify their claims to a distinct ethnic identity. Taiwanese nationalism is a good example of that.
>>1045701
>But I and many others would never want to leave the west to live in places like the ME or Africa
neither would I, but you are conflating "quality of life" with "quality of culture".
>but when you dig a bit deeper and see shit like how middle eastern treat gays and women, it's not a culture I would want my family raised under.
I agree, neither would I. however, for something to be "inferior" (objectively worse) you would have to make it your point to say "this behaviour (mistreating gays, as an example) is objectively bad", which of course you cannot. ethics can never be objective. however I am no cultural or ethical relativist and for the record I condone behaviour of this sort.
>We still need borders in order to preserve our culture
we do need borders, but not for that reason.
>they needs their borders to keep their culture
they do need borders, but not for that reason. also take into account the fact that they did not make the borders, we did.
all in all how can you say culture is fluctuating and then turn around and say it is "preserved by borders"? between japan and america there are not only literal physical borders, there is the biggest divisor in the world also called the sea, there is a language barrier, there is a "cultural" barrier and then there is the distance - yet they still mingled and exchanged. if all of the above is true, how is a border helping us preserve our culture? we are assimilating right this second, be it with borders or without. please do take into account: I am not saying that without borders nothing would change. I am just saying that borders have never held back culture (unless we are talking about physical isolation of course, for example northern america before Columbus. even then they apparently traded with vikings every now and then..).
>>1045707
No, it was the "spook" nonsense
Focault said whether you like it or not, society and the collective you associate with works organically with the individual forming it as the individual forms the collective, it is inescapable. You may disasossiciate yourself from the the collective you were born into, but you cannot merely emancipate yourself from it unless you live a fully autonomous life outside society. The Nation represents merely one of the many "totalities" that have formed human culture and civilisation since the beginning.
Because it is not compatible with basic human behaviour, anarchy believes in an ideal state that ignores conflict and the implementation of a society without the will to power. Hegel's conception of human development is of "growth through conflict", hierarchy, totality and the state are all practical responses to channeling conflict into less destructive/more productive avenues for the collective and its want for stability
>>1045731
Not all Nationalism is ethno-nationalism. Do you really believe Taiwanese nationalists disavow the majority ethnic identity as Han Chinese? Han Chinese constitute large populations all over southeast asia outside the Chinese state. Their national identity is not in opposition to the ethnic Han chinese of the Chinese communist state, but as Han chinese against the Communist state itself. Taiwan itself was born from the remnants of the Chinese Nationalists who lost the war
>>1045732
well obviously we don't need borders just for culture, I should have specified that.
I do believe cultures can fluctuate, regardless of borders. Culture is a fairly difficult thing to understand properly, like you mentioned with isolation ,it's the only real way to preserve culture, such as Cuba or North Korea.
You stole what I was going to say in that the literal and physical sense, borders can keep culture safe. But really nowhere is safe. American culture is everywhere regardless, and it's impossible to avoid at this point, and that's just one example. Really whether we like it or not, I believe sooner or later this world will turn into one big culture with only slight differences between them. Unless the world goes full isolationist and everyone ignores each other. Even then thanks to things like the internet, we make our own sub-cultures, and unwittingly spread our current cultures across the internet for all to witness.
Honestly I don't know what to expect for the future, it seems bleak, but for all we know it could very well be just fine. These are strange times we live in.
>>1045778
>nonsense
How is nationalism not a spook though?
>>1045778
I agree with what you say, but I don't see how that invalidates the idea of a union of egoists. The collective is not above the individual, whether you choose to dissociate yourself from it or to contribute to its functioning, it never becomes more meaningful than what the self can gain from it.
>anarchy
What kind of anarchy are you talking about?
I am not opposed to hierarchy
>>1045828
Well, I'm going off of what my Taiwanese friend says. Admittedly, I'm not too knowledgeable about the subject, but my friend claims that Taiwanese is a separate ethnicity from Han Chinese because they mixed with the natives and Japanese so they're genetically distinct. How true this is, I'm not sure.
>>1045855
>Really whether we like it or not, I believe sooner or later this world will turn into one big culture with only slight differences between them.
well obviously this is bound to happen. i don't see what's so bad about it though.
consider this: for centuries europeans, american, indians and so forth have been drinking tea, which originally came from china. even though the "European style" of drinking tea is still prevalent, people really passionate about tea all around the world rely on the Gongfu-tradition, even today.
I don't differentiate between "things worth preserving" and "things not worth preserving", I am merely suggesting that thousands of years of tradition will never vanish. They might remain, they might influence the present, they can shape the future.
Japan is a small, isolated country, but thanks to the internet weebs have been popping up all over the globe. What makes you think this kind of behavior will stop?
people have always feared "the other" (xenophobia) as they have adored it (exoticism). we now live in a period of time where it is not only easy as never to store information; data; in short: the present, what will in the future be history, but we also live in a time where multiculturalism is greatly encouraged.
this leads me to believe that your so called "cultures" will definitely be preserved, but not by a specific ethnic group, like it used to be for centuries.
Nationalism doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with excessive pride.
>>1045077
Read Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities. You'd like it
>>1045077
I think excessive pride in one's country is totally fine. I personally have a lot of pride that I am American and that I have the rights that I do. Once that nationalism and pride turns into "everyone should be like us! we're the best! Gott mit uns!!!" is when it becomes dangerous. Excessive pride is what keeps people here and makes them want to do something for their country that will benefit it. Either being a great employee, entrepreneur, government official, or soldier. If you live in a country you hate you will not save money, buy a house, raise a family there, etc. you will save up money and get the hell out of dodge (implying this country has those freedoms). I wouldn't consider myself a nationalist, but I hold a lot of pride in America (I'm legit listening to the battle hymn of the republic right now lol). I want to start my own business and do all that I can for my country through that. Obviously America has done some really fucked up shit, but what country hasn't? Ours may be recent but look at Germany, Japan, and Britain. Honestly I think our military should be mostly defensive though. I don't want us to send our soldiers out to kill some militant group halfway around the world. But I'm rambling so I'll end it with a tldr.
TL;DR: I believe nationalism is fine as long as it doesn't spark expansion and aggression. It promotes efficiency and service to one's country also.
>>1045113
>all borders are completely arbitrary
Dropped. One must seriously question the knowledgeably and worldview of one who makes these kind of assertions.
>>1046797
This. There are many with excessive pride who fall for the nationalism meme and give their lives willingly because propaganda gave them a false sense of belonging. During and after WWI, they became disillusioned but that doesn't stop more people from falling into the same trap. This isn't a fault of nationalism itself. It's just the result of exploiting those that don't think about their actions.
any white men that advocates for multiculturalism or want to take in "refugees" should be shot on sight
>>1047523
But it's good for economic growth
t.capitalism
>>1047535
fuck capitalism
>>1047535
No. Refugees can at best contribute unskilled labor, which will disappear to automation in coming years, leaving them as a useless drain.
You do essentially diagnose the reason all of this is happening however, politicians are in the pockets of corporations who value to profit greatly in the short term from the devaluation of labor.
>>1045113
all borders are completely arbitrary is ridiculous. even if you exclude human populations, there are many borders that follow geographic features.
The australian economy has been ruined by a lack of nationalism so yes.
>nationalism
>countries
>>1047586
I do not understand the "my property" part of this meme.
>>1047535
I know you're memeing, but that argument ("X will be good/bad for the economy") is used so often that it pisses me off.
>>1047596
tl;dr - The world and other people in it are your property. Use them as you see fit.
>>1047563
Go back behind the iron curtain Vlad.
pic related it's you.
I'm fairly interested in the variety of opinions on this topic. I have a few open questions I want to ask, just to get a general idea of what people here think.
>1. Do you see countries/borders as legitimate? Why or why not?
>2. To what extent do you want borders to be enforced? Do you want an 'open door' policy, in which anyone can come in? If so, do you also support bringing refugees in?
>3. Do you believe that countries ought to be protected from outside influences or that nations ought to be protected from outside influences? Keep in mind that these denote different things.
>4. Do you think a particular devotion to one's own country/nation is necessary for its survival?
>5. Whether you agree with it or not, do you see nationalism as an extension of tribalism? Do you see yourself as a tribalist?
>6. Are you a 'racial' nationalist (i.e. black/white nationalist) or a general nationalist?
>>1047696
1) Mostly yes. The reason I say mostly is because I can already see some glasses adjusting anime smartallic saying that it's just a construct of the government and without being enforced it means nothing! which, is true but really it's kind of a retarded argument.
2) I want them to be enforced enough to keep illegals out. But then again i don't want the whole national guard to be there guarding it. Just enough to have a small, controllable amount of illegals coming in. obviously we can't stop them all, but we should try. But it shouldn't be a major priority.
3) I don't understand your question too much. I don't think people need protection from ideals. but if you mean outside influences as militant forces and insurgents yes.
4) Yes I do. I feel that if there was no devotion to your country, state, community, whatever. Said place will fall apart. Take Detroit for an example. Nobody has passion for Detroit, it is a fucking shit town and it is falling apart. Most people just want to get out. Thus destroying the community
5) Yes I do. It is human nature to take pride in where you live (unless you're a cuck). Do I see myself as a tribalist? I guess so now. But I certainly wouldn't call myself that in public or else people would think I'm takin' scalps and shit.
6) No. Every breed of American is still American (or whatever country you're in). I do believe that some people can't be assimilated into our culture but as long as they don't hurt anyone or their property and express their beliefs in a nonviolent manner (I don't coun't jihadists and terrorists in this because what they preach is more of a call to action) they are fine by me.
sorry for the long reply
>>1045077
Only if you come from a shit country.
>>1047696
>governments are subject to a Darwinian process of selection, there's a reason that smaller and larger political units have failed to survive into this era
>it's more cost-effective to limit the access of illegal migrants to government services and the formal economy than to try and seal off the country
>that is the primary goal of a state, to ensure self determination for that particular political unit
>yes and no, both involve identity politics, but nationalism doesn't necessarily depend on heredity
>I'm an American jingo. Anyone who is willing to act like an American is fine by me
>>1045113
When you go FULL RETARD YOU DO NOT GO BACK. NEVER
>>1048425
>425
>reduce 2 and 5 to 1, add what you took away to 4
>911
:0
Nobody derides studious researchers as "science fanatics". Nobody derides passionate chefs as "food fanatics". There is nothing wrong with being fanatic about something that deserves fanaticism, such as the nation.
>>1047477
You must have the mind of a child.
Nations are just large prison camps and some are nicer than others.
E.g., restrictive travel, secured borders, drug laws, etc.
>>1047523
t. tough-talking neckbeard
doesn't something being excessive inherently mean it is stupid.
