is there any proof or good source that this guy was a mass-murdering psychopath? literally all i can ever find is stuff written by extreme right-wing Cuban exiles, so of course they're not gonna like Fidel
He sure did put people in jail and still does but no mass murders, altought there were summary executions right after the revolution (happens in every revolution everywhere)
It depends on your definition of "mass-murdering psychopath".
Do you consider Pinochet a "mass-murdering psychopath"? Because he killed way less people than Castro, for example.
I, for one, do not consider him to be one, even though I'm critical of him. I actually think that his worst legacy has been his support of African dictators who were actually mass-murdering psychopaths, such as Francisco Macias Ngema and Mengistu Haile Mariam but not even right-wing Cubans remember that. Who cares about Africans, right? They're not even niggers.
>>809921
No, it's 100% all prop for mindless Americans.
>>809921
He was just nega-Pinochet
>>809949
The 1950s were 60 years ago. most Americans are fed pro-communist propaganda these days, specially at school.
>>809965
>most Americans are fed pro-communist propaganda these days, specially at school.
my nephew tells me they still read 1984 followed by lots of Ayn Rand in public high school actually
>>809942
why did Fidel had a thing for Africa?
he sent almost 40.000 regular troops there and 20.000 to Ethiopia, including a tank brigade
>>809942
>Do you consider Pinochet a "mass-murdering psychopath"? Because he killed way less people than Castro, for example.
source plz
>>809965
>in the country where a democratic socialist is running for president and has to explain every other day to Americans that that's not the same thing as a communist
>Americans are fed pro-communist propaganda
>>809975
Your nephew probably knows you are a commie and want to be a good nephew and reinforces your beliefs. They actually read Howard Zinn and watch Oliver Stone documentaries nowadays.
>>809997
>IF IT'S NOT RONALD REAGAN IT'S CCCCCCCCCCCOMMUNIST
>Americans in charge of living in reality
>>809983
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Bandits
>but they were guerrilla
So where the 3.000 Revolutionary Left Movement members that Pinochet killed.
By the way, one think that I realized when I've read about left-wing dictatorships crushing guerrilla armies, it's how fucking easy counter-guerrilla warfare truly is when the guerrillas don't have a sympathetic media on their side. If Batisto tried the same tactics about Castro, Herbert Matthews would publish an article about his brutality and the NYT and the USA would be pressured to enforce an embargo.
But Fidel absolutely exterminate opposition? That's fine, no one cares.
And we have to listen to a bunch of commies talking about "anti-communist propaganda". If that was real, if anti-communists had so much power, if the Birchers weren't purged from the right, you wouldn't even be here to say that bullshit.
>>809982
They helped Mandela.
IDK, Cuba is just a bro country, they send doctors everywhere.
>>810024
>They helped Mandela.
As if that was a good thing to do.
>IDK, Cuba is just a bro country, they send doctors everywhere.
They sent a bunch of slaves whose wages go directly to the Government and seek all chances they get to escape.
And they do it now not because they are bros, but because they lack the monies to send troops (and because there is distinct lack of communist dictators in Africa for them to support).
Really, imagine what Noam Chomsky and Oliver Stone would say if the United States sent tens of thousands of troops in support of a dictator, like Mengistu in Ethiopia, who killed 500.000 people. They wouldn't have shup up until now. But Castro gets away with it, and people say Cuba is a "bro country".
And I have to listen that we have "anti-communist propaganda" warping everyone's views about Cuba, when most people don't even know that ever happened.
>>810013
i'm not a commie but your source is a crappy wikipedia article and does not contain any death toll.
on top of that
>So where the 3.000 Revolutionary Left Movement members that Pinochet killed.
can you give me a source that these 3K were guerilla members? I had the honest oppression that the disappearances included non-guerilla activists or leftwing student organizations, but I know little about the Pinochet regime.
>>810042
\This, the doctors aren't for free you know? But they don't receive wages, no no no, payment is directly for the cuban govt
>>810024
Yes but doctors are for winning hearts and minds bullshit. Cubans went to Angola to fight a proper war with tanks, artillery and aviation included.
>>810042
>And I have to listen that we have "anti-communist propaganda" warping everyone's views about Cuba, when most people don't even know that ever happened.
Castro is virtually synonymous with "brutal dictator" virtually everywhere in the United States. Most people don't know exactly what happened because most Americans are not spicks.
>>810064
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet
>Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte (November 25, 1915 — December 10, 2006) (pronounced "pee-no-shit" in Spanish) was a murderous dictator and criminal money launderer
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro
>Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz (b. 13 August 1926, in Oriente, Cuba) is a Marxist leader and cigar fan.
Notice the different. People are way more lenient to Castro. In a certain way, with his cigars and old cars, he is kind of a meme. No one thinks about him as "brutal dictator" besides a few butthurt Cubans in Miami.
>>810079
>pronounced "pee-no-shit"
heh
>>810079
>posts one example from leftleaning website
>"See? no one thinks he's a brutal dictator! Everyone is a brainwashed commie!"
What's the problem of thinking he was a brutal dictator? He was.
>>809975
>they still read 1984 followed by lots
You do realise that 1984 is a book written by a guy who fought for Marxists in Spain(sympathised with anarchists) and was lifetime supporter of Labour(outside of episode with ILP but that's again Independent LABOUR Party) and every single essay of his reeks with left-wing opinions, no matter of when he wrote it?
He was extremely anti-stalinist and anti-totalitarian but he wasn't right wing. In fact majority of 1984 and Animal Farm prints have epilogue where he explains the background of them and how he feels about this communism, capitalism, fascism etc.
That left wing intellectuals abandoned him only shows their butthurt after he called them whores in essay supporting Warsaw Uprising.
>>810013
>If Batisto tried the same tactics about Castro, Herbert Matthews would publish an article about his brutality and the NYT and the USA would be pressured to enforce an embargo.
USA embargoed Castro's Cuba.
>>810147
yes, I do realize and already knew all of this. but in my (and my nephew's) high school experience, the curriculum did not include Orwell's views and life outside of his criticism of Stalinism, which we learned to be the exact same thing as communism.
>>810079
How about actual wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet
>Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte, more commonly known as Augusto Pinochet (Spanish pronunciation: [auˈɣusto pinoˈʃā] or Spanish pronunciation: [auˈɣusto pinoˈtʃet];[1][2][A] 25 November 1915 – 10 December 2006), was dictator[3][4] of Chile between 1973 and 1990 and Commander-in-Chief of the Chilean Army from 1973 to 1998. He was also president of the Government Junta of Chile between 1973 and 1981.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro
>Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz (American Spanish: [fiˈðel aleˈxandɾo ˈkastɾo ˈrus] About this sound audio (help·info); born August 13, 1926), more commonly known as Fidel Castro, is a Cuban politician and revolutionary who governed the Republic of Cuba as its Prime Minister from 1959 to 1976 and then its President from 1976 to 2008. Politically a Marxist–Leninist and Cuban nationalist, he also served as the First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba from 1961 until 2011. Under his administration Cuba became a one-party communist state; industry and business were nationalized, and state socialist reforms were implemented throughout society. Internationally, Castro was the Secretary-General of the Non-Aligned Movement from 1979 to 1983 and from 2006 to 2008.
In case you're too dumb to read more than 10 words in a row:
>Under his administration Cuba became a one-party communist state
>>810173
>>Under his administration Cuba became a one-party communist state
And what, also usa today is one-party two-faction country.
>>810180
Yes, the complete exterminaton of all opposition in Cuba is exactly the same as the US situation today.
You're a visionary.
>>810180
You have no idea what does one party state mean.
It doesn't mean "lol there really is two party system" and variations. For majority of India's modern history a SINGLE party was ruling whole the time, they've won almost every single election with few exceptions(including the recent ones) yet nobody calls for India being undemocratic(in fact, it's very democratic for the region it's in). Why you ask? Because establishment of other parties isn't banned and people opposing the ruling parties aren't oppressed. Which is unlike one-party states.
>>810079
>he is kind of a meme
Stopped caring about what you had to say.
>>810199
so where is the USA's communist party?
>>810204
here http://www.cpusa.org/
>>810211
nice logo.
I'm sure is the first time you see it in your whole life.
>>810225
not relevant is different from not being permitted to exist.
>>810232
ok, but close that tab or the NSA may put you in a list.
>>810204
Not feelin' the bern?
>>810237
lel
>>810045
Chilean here, Pinochet killed way less people than Castro (fuck them both though); indeed, Pinochet killed mainly people that were part of the MIR (Movimiento Izquierda Revolucionario/ Revolutionary Left Movement) and the FPMR (Frente Patriotico Manuel Rodriguez/ Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front), but also killed people linked to these groups, and exiled a shitload of people that weren't directly related to either groups, or even the leftist movements, but were directly associated to people within these groups, for example, my grandmas sister was married to a guy that was part of the MIR, and she was exiled along her children and her husband to Germany (mothers family is from there, so it wasn't much of a hassle for them).
The numbers of murders committed by the Pinochet regime stand at three thousand, give or take.
Let's not forget Castro ruled Cuba for almost five decades, and fell to the manipulation of the USSR which subsequently morphed into the relationship the US and Cuba developed which in itself meant various assassination attempts on Castro, an embargo that fucked the island up, etc.. It's amazing Castro didn't wen't full paranoid dictator and purge 2/3 of the population tbhfam. But yeah, he still committed a lot of atrocities, and keeps jailing opposing political figures, but if you look at the numbers, Cuba dwarves in comparison to the US, that in the same period of Castro has killed literally millions of people, invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.. And gave birth to various military dictatorships around the globe, including Pinochet, who was a puppet of Nixon and Kissinger, yes, the same guy that was given the Nobel Prize for Peace was directly responsible for thousands of deaths in my country, and let's not even mention the same prize given to Obama, a decisive factor in what is today, a complete fucking chaos in the ME.
>you will never be bros with Fidel
:(
>>810312
>he still committed a lot of atrocities
such as?
>>810204
It depends on how you define a communist party.
If you define it as a mere institution, it's irrelevant, but if you understand the "communist party" as Antonio Gramsci understood, as the collective of the activist intelligentsia, they are ruling the country.
If you look at the history of this country, you clearly see that the Communist Party is getting what it wants, the John Birch Society not much.
>>809983
not him, but Fidel rose to power through a violent revolutionary war while Pinochet's coup was completed within a day and resulted in less than 60 immediate deaths. It really shouldn't be a surprise that Fidel killed more people, he was 360 no-scoping them for 5 years and had to deal with the threat of armed counterrevolutionaries afterwards.
>>810338
There is a whole section about Cuba here, beginning at page 647.
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/blackbookcommunism.pdf
>inb4 muh Black Book of Communism is not a legit source
The only controversial part is the preface where Stephane Courtois makes his claims of equivalency between communism and Nazism and says that communism killed 100 million people. More contributors criticized that addition and the rest of the book is rigorous, serious history according to the best sources available at the time (which aren't available now, Putin closed the Moscow Archives after he came to power so there is no best source for this history of communism right now than the Black Book.
The problem of Cuba, of course, is that we don't have such sources, since the regime still has absoute control over the country. There is some evidence for Stasi-like shit going on with the Committes for the Defense of Revolution, for example, but without sources we can't be sure of anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committees_for_the_Defense_of_the_Revolution
>>810338
execution of POWs, not him directly but Che Guevara, who was under his command
>>810376
not really atrocities though. Che was responsible for executing war criminals and enemies to the revolution at La Cabana. not sure if that's what you were referring to.
>>809982
>
Part of it was a communist soldiarity thing. The Soviets were obsessed with maintaining their image as an anti-imperialist, anti-colonial power, and thought that sending white Russian and Ukrainian soldiers into Africa might give off the wrong impression. Cuban soldiers, coming from a relatively underdeveloped country, could more easily fit the face of third world revolution, and so they were sent to assist and prop up communist movements abroad.
>>809965
>I have never been to an American school; the post
What the fuck is this stupid meme and why does it eist?
>>809965
Sanders isn't a DemSoc at best. Anyone who thinks America is pro-communist or being fed commie propaganda is a retard.
>>811895
*Is
>>809921
>a mass-murdering psychopath
Most of them respected in our days.
>>810312
Why was that singer Victor Jara killed though? Was he a guerrilla member? In Argentina, it's a taboo to talk about whether people killed in the last dictatorship were guerrillas.
>>809982
About half of it was to support fellow Communists, and another half was so their army could get combat experience to better protect Cuba against the hypothetical American invasion.
>>812011
Is invansion? No, white house preferably like set up a puppet at president place.
>>812011
>hypothetical
>>812007
Because not all the leftists were guerrilla members. Soldiers didn't give a shit about it, if you were a commie then you were a commie.
Also they tortured a shit load of people.
>>812040
We know that now, but did Castro know that?
>>812040
>implying the Bay of Pigs gave them enough combat experience
>implying it wasn't a massive embarrassment and only escaped being Kennedy's Legacy because he got shot
You know what I meant. If the US had just said "fug the Commies" and invaded from Florida in force.
>>809942
>Francisco Macias Ngema
Holy fuck that guy was insane, hes like a black pol pot. Did the commies actually support him?
>>811814
>The Soviets were obsessed with maintaining their image as an anti-imperialist, anti-colonial power, and thought that sending white Russian and Ukrainian soldiers into Africa might give off the wrong impression.
All bullshit. They were interested in new trade partners. It's the ₽₽₽₽₽ they wanted
>>812007
I'm the one you replied to, and I can confirm he wasn't part of any guerrilla group whatsoever, but was indeed a huge cultural factor within the leftist movements in the country.
When he was detained in a stadium alongside plenty of other commies, apparently the soldiers broke his hands with their rifles and the told him "try and play now", may seem like a bullshit story, but Pinochet went for attrocity and gruesomeness rather than big numbers, and it was certainly effective.
There are records of extensive torture with electricity, women being raped with dogs and rats, etc.. Pretty insane shit.
