How do we feel about this?
>Dmitri Lubomudrov, the Orthodox Church’s legal adviser told the media at that time, “We realized we couldn’t stay dependent on the Western financial system, but must develop our own. As with the Islamic system, the Orthodox one will be based not just on legislation, but on Orthodox morality as well, and will be an invitation to businessmen seeking security at a time of crisis.” Among its features would be interest-free credit issuance and prohibition of investment in gambling casinos or such activities going against Church moral values.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/interest-free-banking-russia-debates-unorthodox-orthodox-financial-alternative/5495331
Is it a viable alternative to the IMF, as it aims for, or a catastrophe waiting to happen?
As a Catholic, I can't help but be sympathetic. I've read Aquinas in the De Malo. I've seen his arguments that lending money at interest is a mortal sin, and I'm sympathetic to them.
I wouldn't have any problem ripping up the global financial system by the roots. It seems to have done more harm than good, on top of being innately sinful for all involved.
>>787281
Do you think the Catholic Church could do something similar?
>>787422
Oh, yes, I think it could.
The consequences might be dire, though. Popes and cardinals could be assassinated. Can you imagine how furious the global financial system would be if the Church proposed an interest-free alternative to it? People could die. People WOULD die.
I still wish they would do it. Francis would be the pope to do it, but I wonder if even he will.
>>787503
That would change him from extremely popular to extremely unpopular
>Orthodox morality
>pls gib moni to the church. we need those golden domes and scepters while you live with 300 dollars a month, filthy peasant
>>787819
Gold is a gift from God. If you think even Church's aren't good enough to use it, then can you tell me what is?
>>787823
Do they actually have a concrete plan for implementation? that would be rad. The Orthodox Financial System was originally proposed under Yeltsin, but got rejected completely; now things are different so it is being given serious consideration.
Usury isnt a black and white issue, what counts as usury has been of much debate over the centuries. One should establish the former in order to actually take action on it
>>787826
Gold is an earthly thing that leads to vanity.
A church needs to be the shepherd that brings people to the light of spiritual enlightenment, not use people as cattle to acquire riches.
>>787834
Usury in the Orthodox Church is any interest beyond the rate of inflation.
>>787856
Do you think gold is sinful and wicked, or something? Yes, it is earthly, but God is not anti-earthly, he gave the earth to us as a gift. Gold is very beautiful, do you dislike it because it is so beautiful?
It's funny how wealth hoarding is materialism when it belongs to individuals but a "gift from god" when given up to churches.
>>787866
The Churches employ gold for its use value, not financial speculation or exchange value.
>>787861
Gold itself is not sinful but it leads to sinful ways once it tempts the hearts of man into greed.
A church asking for donations while the men and women live in squalor and poverty while they preach about morality. It is despicable.
Jesus himself sold his possessions and gave to the poor while the church amasses wealth.
Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Mark 12:17
And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him.
>>787872
They use it as a conductor? What sorts of electronics is the church responsible for constructing?
>>787875
>>787887
Gold has specific useful properties, for example as a conductor. In that case, its cost is a barrier to be overcome. As ornamentation, its cost is the point. Showing off how much extra cost you can absorb is a flagrant display of wealth. The church display of wealth and power is exactly the same as that of any citizen, but for some reason not called greed.
They should be replaced with inexpensive colored quartz and cheaper metals that look beautiful. Sufficiently old artefact should be sold to museums and the money given to the poor, newer items should be liquidated in any efficient way.
>>787901
Gold can be a conspicuous display, but it's also beautiful.
It's not the same as any citizen, because the Church is a public place, like a park or a museum.
>>787901
>things that should be done
>>787875
Sounds like a dirty prottie trying to rationalize his sterile and lifeless weltanshauung devoid of transcendent aesthetic achievement.
>>787901
>sold to museums
Proof you're retarded
Museums take donations
>>787911
Many inexpensive materials are also beautiful. Again, quartz is relatively cheap and pretty. Replacing all jewelry with varieties of quartz would free up plenty of wealth without sacrificing the gaudy aesthetics. Gold is no different.
>>787924
Are you saying no museum had ever made a purchase?
>>787928
>Replacing all jewelry with varieties of quartz would free up plenty of wealth without sacrificing the gaudy aesthetics.
You dont know aesthetics. Something being shiny and metallic doesnt make it fit for a Church
>>787962
>Something being shiny and metallic doesnt make it fit for a Church
You're damn right it doesn't. If only we could get church officials to realize this.
>>787972
Indeed, too many modern churches lack aesthetic. God deserves the best of the best, not some cheap quartz and aluminum under the excuse of "piety".
Reminder that Judas Iscariot made your same arguments 2000 years ago
>>787928
I don't think they used quartz in ancient Judaism, why would we do so now? To appease people who aren't even in Christ's Church, when the poor who are in it love it as it is?
>>788017
But anon people like Sarah Silverman and Bill Maher might not like that!
>>788007
A child writing Jesus' name in glue and macaroni on construction paper is the "the best of the best" compared to objects of earthly material wealth, because the former springs out of a love of God and the latter from a love of gold. Paintings and sculptures are in general a different matter, but that's why I did not refer to them.
>>788029
>gold cannot be used to express love of God, only macaroni
Can you explain this, please?
something something religion based currency
thats like.. The Über Fiat
>>788017
Gild and jewels are currently used to appease those not in Christ's Church as they are largely in Catholic churches. I guess Mary's Church does not feel any obligation to follow Christ, though.
>>788044
>>788041
The only reason you are using gold is because it is expensive, now that we have other materials that are shiny and do not tarnish. So unless you're using it for another property like conductivity, the actual objective is wealth. Solomon's temples were full of wealth but empty of spirit.
>>788044
I'm Orthodox, which is Christ's Church. Protestantism is not Christ's Church, it is a fan club that relies entirely in eisegesis. You preach Prosperity Gospel and specular and usury, you have people like Billy Graham who say things like "there are no labor unions in heaven", and you constantly work to push greed as a prevailing poison, but you object like snakes at wealth used to create beauty and majesty and sublime worship. To you, gold is only acceptable as Mammon. If it used for beauty and a common experience, it objectionable.
>>788058
The ARK OF THE COVENANT was made out of gold.
We used gold because that is what we've used for 3000 years. We don't change something like that unless there is good reason to change, and people outside the Church telling us to change it is not good reason, we are not here to pander to heretical or heathens or atheists, the Church is for the faithful. Call me back when you actually have poor Orthodox Christians complaining about the use of gold in Church.
>>788078
Gold was used predominantly by the church to make artefacts because it was poor relativistically to the wealth of the market that traded in first pick silver. The rest is blasphemous propaganda.
>>788078
Because prior to current materials Science, gold had unique uses beyond simply being shiny and rare. For example, its ductility and lack of tarnish. When used in that context, God is not merely a display of wealth but serves a practical purpose, and thus isn't inherently a problem. The issue is now that there are many low-cost alternatives (unless again you are using it for its practical properties and the expense is a barrier), choosing gold is an exercise in ego-stroking and nothing else. It is unfortunate that poor shepherds are misleading the flock, but nothing can be done about that.
>>788107
No what I said is more true, what you said is an apologetic excuse for controlled "markets" and collectivism.
>>788107
Of course not. Why would members of Mary's Church follow the will of Jesus? She outranks him, his wishes are irrelevant.
>>788112
No, what you said it bull. Gold was about beautification, see Exodus 28:6
Bronze could have been used, or iron. It's a lot cheaper.
>>788114
What the heck does Mary have to do with any of this? Can you actually engage in coherent discussion, or do you just spout buzz phrases?
>>788128
Why would a pagan church follow the will of Christ? They wouldn't, obviously. So Orthodox and Catholics are clearly not going to be interested in fixing minor things like their love of wealth when they refuse to fix major things like their love of other deities.
>>788138
You're just spouting buzzwords an ad homs, you're not having any coherent discussion here. I could just start accusing you of being a Muslim for being Protestant, but that's not going to go anywhere because it's just spouting buzzwords.
>>788107
The church has always shunned ostentatiousness.
In one of his epistles Jerome scorned the wealthy Christian women whose books were written in gold on purple vellum, and decked with gems.
Your claim that gold is used because it's beautiful sounds like a cheap papal excuse to keep milking funds from the ignorant toiling peasants for the endless building of churches and other construction projects.
You know this kind of decadence was the reason a reformation happened in the first place.
>>788588
That guy isn't a "papist"
>>788588
The Reformation started because of things like indulges (such as were used to build the "Butter Tower"), which aren't Orthodox, we didn't even have them until after the Reformation when we saw we had to clearly define ourselves as against Protestantism and some theologians actually took the practice of indulgences from Rome. Thankfully, those were abolished when we did away with the Roman contamination.
Of course Jerome scorned private ownership of such Bibles, especially since a lot of them time the owners didn't even read them, but he didn't advocate stripping down Churches.
This is just your problem, and the Reformist problem in general: private wealth and luxury is okay, but using wealth for communal glorification of God is considered wrong. You have it completely backward.
>>788624
Why does wealth glorify god, aside from the wealth used for practical purposes?
The use of precious materials for decorating places of worship leads to Islam and it's unending quest for more plunder.
>>788633
It's beautiful. I don't know if you have a sense of beauty, but it is very important to the Orthodox.
Compare your music to ours
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aGJwAENQuk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ9xzi0HebI
Do you see how our sense of aesthetic and worship is very different? Ours is much more ancient. Yours is extremely modernist. So there is only so much I can convey here.
>>788670
Your argument isn't really a good argument here man
It's basically "this song is nicer therefore our Church is more correct"
There are better ways to argue your point
>>787281
>To take usury for the lending of money is in itself unjust, because it is a case of selling what is non-existent; and that is manifestly the setting up of an inequality contrary to justice.
Bitch I sold the guy the use of my money.
>>787859
>beyond the rate of inflation
How is this to be calculated?
>>788670
>your music
The music any given church uses is their personal choice, because if someone so chooses to worship through the use of music it will obviously take on aspects of their personality if it is a genuine expression of love and not empty mimicry. If someone worships with an acoustic guitar in a circle of friends, so be it, if it is sincere. If someone worships with an elaborate orchestra, so be it, if it is sincere. If someone worships with an incredibly out-of-tune singing that cannot be described as anything other than objectively awful and incorrect, so be it, as long as their love of God is sincere. There is no collective "my music" here, because the emotion behind the worship of God is much more important than the surface aesthetic of it.
>>788677
We absolutely thing some beauty is more correct than others, and there is a specific kind suitable for worship.
>>788683
Whichever way your country uses, we aren't Pharisees. The main concern is that there is no profit derived from interest.
>>788692
What if you charged someone a rental fee for the use of your money?
>>788692
Why shouldn't profit be derived from interest? How is this any different from charging someone a few bucks to lend him, say, a wheelbarrow? How is it different than rent?
>>788718
I'll add that if you've read the article, you can see this sort of thing has been effective before
>Under Czar Alexander III and his Finance Minister Nikolai Bunge, Russia established the Peasant Land Bank in the beginning of the 1880’s to give interest-free loans to the liberated peasantry that had been freed from serfdom in 1861 by his father, Alexander II and given land. The Land Bank invested in the modernization of Russian agriculture with farmers only paying a small handling charge for credits. The result was such a spectacular rise in Russian wheat, and other cereals that Russia became the world “bread basket” up to outbreak of World War I, exceeding the combined production of the USA, Argentina and Canada by some 25%.
>>788734
If people can't make money with money, why can they sell anything? They were only able to do so buy buying something with money.
>>788734
>Money only has exchange value.
How is this specific subset of value different than all value? How can charging to lend for a subset of a definition be sinful when it isn't sinful for the larger set?
>>788747
If they keep a store open and tend to it, they are laboring for their money. Doing stuff like speculation is prohibited by the Orthodox Financial System.
>>788768
>like speculation
So I kinda get usury, but the Bible prohibits buying a bunch of stuff expecting for its value to rise in the future? How is buying shit, letting it sit in a warehouse, then selling it later any different than buying shit, letting it sit in a storefront, and selling it sooner?
>>788768
What is the definition of labour? Does a hospital administrator do labour by doing paperwork and organizing the system?
>>788750
If you own a rental store, you are generally performing the same labor as a shopkeeper.
>>788784
So God demands that one labors for money? How are the beggars most blessed then?
>>788789
Because they can't labor, so they have it the hardest.
>>788791
>it's basically gambling
If you do it right it absolutely is not.
>>788807
Yes it is. If it's not gambling, then neither is poker.
>>788791
>you are not producing anything
You're producing opportunities for the person borrowing your money. If he doesn't have my money, he can't do a thing. If he does, he can do a thing and make enough that even after paying me back he has money left over.
>>788815
Poker has a social element. With stock fuckery you can write an algorithm and watch your bank account increment.
>>788818
>You're producing opportunities for the person borrowing your money
No, your money is. You, yourself, are not producing anything anymore than someone casting casino chips into a pot is.
>>788821
That's more investing than speculation.
>>788827
And investing isn't usury?
>>788830
No, it's just buying part of a business.
>>787184
Russian Orthodox Church is literally a Putin's PR firm. Their current patriarch is literally KGB. Of course they're always going to say:
>We're going to build our own banking system! With blackjack, and hookers!
>We're going to build our own EU! With blackjack, and hookers!
>We're going to build our own IMF!
>We're going to build our own <insert anything Russia has been recently bullied by>
>>788913
>is literally Putin's PR firm
You can expect them to be favorable when Putin outlaws gay parades and swearing on TV, restricts abortion, does a lot to rebuilt the Church, and helps defends Orthodox Christians in the Middle East
>current Patriarch is literally KGB
Nice meme
>>788921
>Putin will save the good old values and the church from the Gays of the West.
Even nicer meme.
>>788976
What. I'm saying of course the Church is going to like Putin for outlawing gay parades and distributing homosexual materials to minors. How could the Church *not* like that?
>>788988
Honestly, all I know is that Orthodox church is not Catholic church and they have their own mindset, which I'm not very familiar with.
However, it's a fact that modern friendship between Putin and the church is a little bit more than two PR stunts, which suddenly made the church adore Putin.
>>788988
No one is denying that they have similar interests. The Orthodox Church has had a long and rich history of colluding with autocratic, corrupt governments.
>>788995
No, Putin's Presidency is extremely pro-Church compared to his predecessor Yeltsin's. Putin put a ton of money and projects in rebuilding--literally--the Russian Orthodox Church and into promoting it. He helped change it from a Church in massive decline since the fall of the USSR, into the linchpin of Russian identity. This is why the Patriarch said he was a miracle. They could have gotten any sort of President, but it's unlikely any possibilities would have been so supportive of the Orthodox Church as Putin has been.
>>789001
Romans 13 says to accept all authority as from God. Unless the state says to do something which conflicts with the faith, you're supposed to obey, as a Christian.
>>789006
So the scripture of the organization also has a long history of justifying and colluding with autocratic and corrupt regimes. Thanks for clarifying, anon.
>>789012
What do you mean "colluding"?
>>789034
Actively supporting, legitimizing, and working with.
>>789045
How do you mean?
>>787184
>Among its features would be interest-free credit issuance
Good luck with that.
Should really get their economy off it's knees. lmao
>>788791
>it's basically gambling
How are you supposed to make money in your economy? Or is that a mortal sin too
>>789074
Producing and contributing.
>>788825
You are producing something.
Speculating on a market then selling at a higher price would mean that you would have more disposable income, then one would spend more money buying other goods from other people.
>>788838
Investing is basically speculating.
Also it is usury, you buy a part of a business and expect dividends to be payed back to you. The business uses this share capital to fund business adventures
Which is exactly the same mechanism of paying intrest on a bank loan.
>>789076
You are contributing by selling goods
>>787184
Incredible. These people are like the Jews and Muslims, they think they can get around God's Word by exploiting some loophole in the letter of the Law. "Interest free" loans... that cost more to pay back than they payed out. You can call that extra money you claw back a "tithe" or a "services charge" or whatever you like, usury is usury.
>>787834
>Usury isnt a black and white issue, what counts as usury has been of much debate over the centuries.
Usury is loaning money at interest. Usury is an abomination to God.
>>787859
>Usury in the Orthodox Church is any interest beyond the rate of inflation.
>>788692
>Whichever way your country uses, we aren't Pharisees.
Really? Because it sounds like you got that law from men, not from God.
I want the Orthodox shitposters to leave /his/
But interest is a vital part of modern capitalism.
You don't want to go the way of the Ottoman Empire do you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economics#Criticism
>>789575
This, there was always usury because its necessary to a functioning economy, banning it just puts in in the hands of loan sharks.
anyone advocating we give it up lives in a world of fantasy and superstition.
>>787184
>>787834
>what counts as usury has been of much debate over the centuries
Which shows the inherent corruption within governing religious bodies.
>>789611
>its necessary to a functioning economy,
How? How would an economy not be able to function without interest?
>>789112
It's true that God didn't leave us a specific way to calculate inflation, if that's what you mean.
>>789659
Because then lenders wouldn't have any incentive other than altruism. And we all know how well that works in the long run.
>>791443
The Orthodox Financial System doesn't employ privatized lending.
