![Commander_Michael_Collins[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kNP5rVy.jpg "Commander_Michael_Collins[1].jpg")
What is your opinion of Michael Collins and the IRA in the Irish War of Independence? Are you pro-treaty or anti-treaty?
>>777618
In my opinion Irish should have fought on.
Or at least declare war during ww2, british occupation of north is still very hippocritical
Arguments for Treaty
>Only reason we've been successful against British forces is because they've treated us as an insurgency, so they only sent their army. If we don't sign they'll treat us as a rogue state, send their full airforce and navy to assist the fight, and deal with us the same way they dealt with Germany.
>The Scottish population of Ulster doesn't want to join us, and they have no plans of evacuating the land their ancestors conquered.
>"Canada-status" will only last 2 decades
>got best treaty possible since de Valera, Ireland's best negotiator, decided to sit home since "Ireland's President doesn't travel abroad for negotiating" (ie. didn't wanna be the one bringing the bad news home)
Anti-Treaty
>Have to pay off massive amount of UK debt
>all members of the Oireachtas still have to swear allegiance to King
>Royal Navy still allowed to control 3 vital ports in our country
>Irish people are lazy, and if we don't win the war now, we'll never get around to finishing reunification of the island later
Probably still Pro-Treaty since Ireland wouldn't stand a chance in actual all-out war, let alone be able to militarily conquer the North without losing the moral high-ground and sympathy of the world.
>>777618
Pro 2bh
>>777751
Northern Ireland's existence is equally as valid as the modern state of Israel.
Also an Irish declaration of war during WWII would have been nothing more than suicide
>>777766
>as valid as Israel
So not valid?
>>777766
This. Not only would they lose, but they'd be seen as Nazi collaborators.
Which the British still see them as because de Valera tried to play both sides against each other and eventually side with the winner, and because he went to the Germany embassy to sign Hitler's "get well soon" card after his suicide. Possibly the most cringeworthy moment in the nation's history.
>>777794
>because he went to the Germany embassy to sign Hitler's "get well soon" card after his suicide. Possibly the most cringeworthy moment in the nation's history.
He did the same thing for FDR
Ireland's "neutrality" during WW2 was massively in favor of the allies to the point where it was barely neutrality at all. Nobody accuses them of being Nazi sympathizers apart from some of the more loopy NI lot.
>>777766
If they never accepted it and continued to struggle for freedom for few more decades england would be forced to accept its independance during ww2.
>>777766
Except jews have one ethnic state where they are native to and were genocided few years earlier, while protestants if not happy with ireland would only need to pass one channel, and would have protection of uk
>>777794
Absolutely, and as another anon mentioned, the uprising of 1919 was not treated as a full out war against an Irish state, instead it was treated as a localised rebellion and so only infantry, cavalry, and light artillery were deployed, with the majority of the fighting actually undertaken by paramilitaries out of government control, though the government refused to denounce them, and of course it was less than a year after the war - not giving the British parliament any decent time to finalise the implementation of the delayed and already approved 1912 homerule bill. WWII would involve more than a small ground force supplemented by paramilitaries, and it would be rtaken incredibly serious due to the strategic value of Ireland as a co-belligerent.
>>777836
The United Kingdom really would not be forced to accept an Irish invasion of Ulster, no offence but you sound like a foreign celtaboo talking out his arse right now, considering as mentioned here:
>>777846
The 1919 rising was a totally different scenario to the idea of an Invasion during WWII, if anything an Irish invasion would benefit the UK in the long run, having access to more resources to keep up the fight in Europe. Not to mention Ireland aligning to the Axis is schoolboy fantasy nonsense
>>777836
The Majority in Ulster don't consent to Irish Catholic rule over the territory, the going to Britain argument doesn't hold up, since the Catholics could just walk across the bloody border into an Irish Catholic state, by your logic the USA should be destroyed as occupiers, and the land returned to natives.
>>777751
>Irish should have fought on
The IRA, by Collins's admission, were completely exhausted. They would have been obliterated if they fought on. Better to get on the road to independence for the south now and possibly the north later than to doom the entire island to centuries of more British occupation.
>>777900
How would that happen in 20th century.
I want to say ireland should have stayed part of uk during 20th century, and follow some for of dissent like indians.
War and troubles during 70s would put them in much better place.
Now large part of their island is cut off.
>>777888
Why cant protestant's be minority in unified ireland?
North ireland is only part of UK because of british imperialism.
>>777766
That's just not true. Israel is a totally different situation that bears only superficial difference. Partition was not a good idea, it was always going to cause massive trouble. The island should not be divided up when it is being granted independence. If a small town in Wexford had a majority unionist population does that small town get to remain a part of Britain while the surrounding are is set free. No. The majority of the island wanted independence but the minority, due to the Ulster plantation were largely confined to one area. If you are in a minority, you do not get to say "well we are in the majority in this small area so we are going to ignore you". It's a bullshit non-country.
>>777794
That was just for lulz, and Éire was clearly leaning towards the allies in it's neutrality.
>>777921
Because they don't identify as Irish, by that logic again, why can't the Irish be a minority in a unified British isles? Claiming the North because they historically held it and another nation took it isn't an absolute just claim to 'their' land, clearly the British have a claim to the Republic of Ireland since some British people live there, same with India and so many former British colonies, crying about past imperialism in Ireland does nobody any good today, except Republicans and Celtaboos to try and give them an apparent moral high ground.
>>777921
Michael Collins was not a psychic who could anticipate the anti-imperialism mood that would rise in the 20th century. Anyway, India is still a part of the commonwealth which was never thought of as desirable for Ireland and if Ireland went the Indian route, who knows what deal we would have gotten?
>>778038
Temporarily cut off, we'll get it back eventually. It hasn't even been a hundred years since the treaty yet. Have some patience. And Ireland being part of the commonwealth as an independent nation that included NI was never going to happen either. The unionists in the north would have still wanted to stay and the country would be partitioned anyway. Either way, this hypothetical would never have happened and non-violent opposition wasn't exactly possible after 1916. The treaty was the best thing for Ireland, refusal would have meant the complete obliteration of the IRA and even if you don't think the occupation would have lasted in the 20th century (which is debatable), if the treaty was not signed, Ireland would have been involved in the second world war. Ireland would have been bombed into oblivion.
>>777935
Fuck, did i say "superficial difference"? I meant "superficial similarities". Sorry, I'm retarded.
>>777955
Definitely. The weather report that delayed D-day was from station in the west of Ireland. Any german soldiers that crashed/captured in Ireland were imprisoned till the wars end but allies were usually dropped over the border
Pro-treaty. Everyone seems to leave out the boundary commision that was to be set up and ''promised'' to give the Free State enough of the north to make the rest unsustainable. Never happened of course but it was in there.
Also we got off light on the oath even though its a stupid symbolic act that helped lose the north. Other countries had to swear allegiance to the king. We only had to swear to be faithful to the king.
Either way, the IRA didnt have the resources to keep fight and anyway there were divisions forming inside and people were getting sick of war. It was the best thing for us
>>777618
I think he made the most of it considering the circumstances. Definitely not a reason to fight a civil war over it and risk the whole country. Some dumb Irish.
>>779675
The boundary commission was gotten rid of for such a stupid reason. It was definitely worth going through with.
>>780366
It was designed to fail. Just more perfidy
>>780366
It never had a chance to be honest.
WE
>>780399
Nah, they aborted the plan too early.
The majority of Northern Ireland wants to remain under British Rule. The British Government hows to hold Northern Ireland until such a time where the majority want independence.
>""""Irish"""" yanks still think NI isn't a legitimate country.
They've probably never even looked at the island never mind lived here
>>782009
Kill yourself subhuman
>>782018
Even as a unionist I support the independence of the Free State. They wanted their independence, they fought hard for it and earned it...but don't try to drag people who don't want it into your mix.
>>782009
>>782051
My only problem is how much of the violence started because unionists got pissy over little shit the the UK backed them up and promoted violence. Then later worsened the Protestant/Catholic divide as it was starting to mend.
I believe NI is part of Ireland in the sense that the people and culture is similer enough in most ways. I do acknowledge the border and the fact that it is part of the UK/Great Britian and I do think it should be until a majority of people in NI want 26+6=1
Why do we want NI? Its not even profitable and the people living there would never handily give up free healthcare on the british NHS and the population there are a bunch of geezers. What industry does it even have? The population of Ireland is half that of London so its not like we need that land now when so much of ireland isnt developed outside of Dublin
>>782778
>Why do we want NI?
Aesthetic borders
>>782796
That was the only reason I have myself too haha
