What is the /his/ approved faction of the three Kingdoms Era?
>>733245
Wei 4 lyfe
Shu
>>733245
Wei and Wu are cool. Shu a shit tho.
Cao Cao was the only one who knew what the fuck he was doing desu.
Wei in reality, but in romance and shit I like Shu
Wu
>>733245
Jin
cao cao is fedora edgelord tier
liu bei was obsessed with some pointless crusade to restore the han dynasty even though
eastern wu was based, they reformed a lot of the economy and politics of China and were even contacted by aliens
to restore the han dynasty even though it served no moral or greater purpose
>>733245
Technically, Cao Cao was never part of the "Wei" faction. He served the Han Emperor, who was dethroned by his son, Cao Pi. The following are sorted from the ones I like best to least:
Han, Cao Cao 190-207
Wu, Sun Quan 220-252
Han, Cao Cao 208-220
Sun family holdings, Sun Ce and Quan 191-221
Shu, Liu Chan 234-247
Wei, all rulers, since order and efficiency was maintained by a plethora of competent officers
Shu, all other eras
Jin, same as above, but under various imbeciles
Wu, Let's crush all dissent era 252+
Liu-Han, Hobos of the Middle Kingdom edition
WUZ
SHU
Reminder that jing belongs to shu and wu are backstabbers
>>733424
Never understood why anyone would like the Wu.
>>733245
The ones who don't toss their infant son on the ground to prove a point.
>>733444
They actually expanded their domains unlike a certain faction who kept attacking Wei and getting rekted every time.
>>733444
Well administrated, competent and fair officers and rulers, few "bad" military campaigns (shorter and less distant than Shu's)
>muh ambition is considered bad in China
Thank fuck for the century of shame to kick them into gear.
>tfw jiang wei was a mistake
>tfw liu shan was a mistake
>>733482
Shu in its entirity was a mistake.
Wei is the only answer here.
Although, I used to like Shu. Cao Cao is a much more realistic and capable leader than Liu Bei both militarily and politically.
>>733501
Tbh this Senpai
I always have been a shufag even though we had no land, shit leaders in and shit officers
It's just zhuge liang and zhao yun from romance that I really like
>>733501
Cao Cao is okay, but Sima Yi is an even better leader in terms of military and politics.
Vote now for most overrated individual in 3k history:
I vote for Zhuge "only won a battle once in my life against diesgregating barbarian tribes" Liang.
HM to Guan "my only historical achievement was killing a nobody like Uan Liang" Yu.
>Wu
River niggers
>Shu
Muh benevolence
The only answer is Wei.
The one faction who didn't spend its entire lifespan launching failed invasions.
>>733494
Why?
>muh benevolence
>muh family
>muh ambition
>muh imbeciles
>muh strength
>muh heritage
>muh seal
>muh paradise
Am I missing anybody?
Why is Shu romanticized in all the games and whatnot as being the "good" guys if Wei was better?
>>733515
Cao Cao has actually a better track record militarily, started with less, ended with more, and was far more appreciated by his contemporaries.
He was also a celebrated poet and if you trust the Wei histories a fenomenal archer and horserider.
He championed meritocracy and fair government, whereas Sima Yi was the herald of the old money trying to climb back into power against the upstarts of Cao, Xun and Xiahou.
Sima Yi doesn't compare at all.
>>733527
muh Confucian values
>>733518
Zhuge Liang without a doubt
>>733527
Shu is the "Dindu nuffin" of China.
>>733527
Muh novel essentially.
Too bad the novel is about as historically accurate as the Iliad.
>>733524
The foundation of Shu is inherently flawed, they wanted a goal that was simply impossible. Said goals also corrupted good people. (Jiang Wei went from upstanding Wei officer to a benevolance obsessed shu officer that got countless men killed in stupid invasions.)
>>733518
What makes you think Zhuge Liang was overrated?
>>733547
99% of the shit he's credited too is literally made up.
It's so bad, Tumblr of all people BTFO'd him.
http://the-archlich.tumblr.com/post/92945620562
>>733547
The fact that he's considered a Sun Tzu tier tactician in spite of only ever winning one campaign, and that against a tribal coalition that had disgregated before he even arrived because the leader was murdered.
The fact that all his attributed inventions already existed for centuries before his time.
The fact that he was extremely power grasping and tried to oust the much more militarily gifted Fei Yi in spite of Liu Bei dying wish of dividing power between the two to get total control over Shu.
The fact that he played the game of favourites and put incompetent fools like his buttbuddies Ma Su and Jiang Wei in charge while sidelining actually accomplished generals like Wei Yan.
Seriously, the guy is a fucking joke.
>>733444
Tons of talented people.
>>733547
Zhuge Liang is the antichrist of /his/:
>He personally wrote the history of his life and ensured that he was remembered how he wished, which was certainly an impressive propaganda effort.
>It is infinitely frustrating to me to see a man with no military talent whatsoever held up as the greatest mind of his age. It is infuriating to see someone who abused his power for his own personal gain and that of his close friends treated like a virtuous man. And it’s pretty irritating to see him credited with inventing things that existed for centuries. The fictional Zhuge Liang gets credit for so, so many things and he doesn’t deserve an ounce of it.
>And yet there will still be people who, after reading all of this and having all of these things specifically pointed out to them, will still insist that Zhuge Liang was a great general and a great man. His fictional persona is just embedded so deeply in peoples’ hearts and minds that they are simply blind to the truth. When confronted with evidence, they’ll brush it aside or try to explain it away or just refuse to hear. That’s probably the most frustrating thing of all.
http://the-archlich.tumblr.com/post/92945620562
Is there anyone more overrated Than Zhao Yun? People were literally made up to inflate his kill count. It's sickening.
>>733598
Guan Yu easily. He literally only has one certified combat kill.
Let's post actual competent generals from China
Pretty much everyone of note in Shu was overrated.
Any overrated guys in the Wei or Wu side?
>>733608
He's up there, but nearly everyone of Zhao Yun's supposed kills are fictional or died by other means.
http://the-archlich.tumblr.com/post/119040427647
>>733618
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Liangyu
>>733629
So literally the same as Guan Yu. Difference being, one was hailed as the god of war, so that makes him much more overrated than someone everyone considers just a tier 2 general.
>>733557
>>733574
>>733629
>tumblr as a source
Just stay there.
![rotkxi_lu_meng_display[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/CMkjV2F.jpg "rotkxi_lu_meng_display[1].jpg")
>>733618
This nigger put together what was probably the best executed campaign in the whole period.
>>733641
That site is kinda cringy because the author has a very emotional style of writing, but his stuff checks out. He's using mostly based Crespigny as a source and various translations of Chen Shou. Shit's legit.
>>733651
>dies of illness
>hurdur guan yu possess and toke revenge
Sometime I ask myself why I believed this shit and hated him when I was a kid
>>733557
>>733574
desu the author makes a lot of leap of faiths here and there but i guess i will concede that Zhuge wasn't an OP military strategist. But a throughtout the whole 3 period, Shu was the weakest and Zhuge Liang was always struggling with what little he had. Even in the historical context, Sima Yi relied on numerical superiority in soldiers and supplies to win
>>733641
Gotta find out whether its actually shit before saying its shit.
>>733619
Considering how romanticized the entire time period is it would be hard to find guys who are not overrated.
>>733680
tumblr is actually shit
>>733676
Yeah but wasn't it his idea to hold Sichuan as base of operation?
I do agree with the limitations he faced when he fought against wei
>>733687
Even a dump has some valuable materials to be found if you look hard enough.
>>733676
>Sima Yi relied on numerical superiority in soldiers and supplies to win
Yes, because it's Sima Yi's fault that Zhuge Liang routinely planned invasions without considering how to supply his troops, right?
Also Hao Zhao laughs at your numbers objection.
Face it, the northern expeditions were an extremely ill-planned disaster the fault for which lies entirely on Kongming's shoulders.
>>733687
Tumblr is pretty fucking big. Just because they have a cancerous sjw presence doesn't mean it's all shit. They have better porn sections than we do, and the older subject specific blogs are generally top quality shit.
>>733706
Yeah, I know. Its just some guy's opinions after all.
I really wish actual good generals like yue fei was more known in western countries than highly overrated ones like guan yu and liang
>>733713
It's their own fault for not having the eastern equivalent of the Iliad dedicated to exalting them.
>tfw no combination of ROTK and Total War.
>>733719
After hearing what Warhammer: TW is going to look like, I'm not sure I'd want one
>>733719
>ROTK 13 exists
I tried streaming it to eagg before it died
>>733705
>Yes, because it's Sima Yi's fault that Zhuge Liang routinely planned invasions without considering how to supply his troops, right?
Not really, it is just it was easier for him to win. The last defeat was done when Sima Yi simply waited.
>Also Hao Zhao laughs at your numbers objection.
>Not knowing the 3 attacker : 1 defender ratio
But I won't deny Zhuge Liang did lost that war.
>Face it, the northern expeditions were an extremely ill-planned disaster the fault for which lies entirely on Kongming's shoulders.
More as an attempt to do the impossible. Zhuge Liang could have never matched the Wei powerhouse with Shu's forces. If it weren't for his talents in administration and governance, he would never have a chance to begin with. Too bad he wasn't a great general as well
>>733736
/eagg/ died? Does it mean the occasional Far Eastern thread on /his/ is the new /eagg/?
>>733741
>3 attacker : 1 defender ratio
>100k to 1k
Ok.
Also your objections are silly. If Zhuge Liang tried to do something impossible, clearly he was a shit general that didn't know what he was doing.
>>733736
>ROTK13 was supposed to save eagg
>it was shit
The PUK will revive it... Right?
>>733743
Before it died some said they are moving to v but I don't want to browse v
>>733755
He keeps waging campaigns because he thinks that those who are based in obscure locations are short-lived and he was right. Sichuan can never provide the same army the northern Plains can
Plus he was more of a chancellor than general
>>733755
Hao Zhao was great in defending, but he didn't destroy Zhuge Liang's army.
If Shu didn't attack Wei on Wei's territory, the reverse would definitely happen. Eventually Wei would overwhelm Shu in the long run (which it did)
>>733775
Sichuan was actually rather prosperous, and Shu routinely managed to field armies just as big as Wei. It also was an extremely defensible position, almost comparable to Wu's impregnability. No decent general would think that the best way to survive in such conditions is to relinquish all your advantages to openly attack a cavalry based enemy on the open plains.
>Plus he was more of a chancellor than general
And if he had kept himself to civil administration, like Liu Bei wanted when he specifically directed that Fei Yi would command military operations and Zhuge Liang the bureaucracy, we wouldn't have this discussion. Instead he chose to encroach upon a field he had no talent in, and got bitchslapped so hard people still laugh at him 1800 years afterwards, in spite of being on the receiving end of one of history's biggest whitewashing campaigns.
>he thinks that those who are based in obscure locations are short-lived in people's memory
That's more like his line of thought. He just wanted accolades and some actual victories to justify his constant comparing himself to legendary figures.
>>733793
>Hao Zhao was great in defending, but he didn't destroy Zhuge Liang's army.
Yes, excuse him for not destroying an enemy 100 times bigger. Not everyone is called Zhang Liao afterall. He still defended against the assault and forced his enemy to retreat.
>If Shu didn't attack Wei on Wei's territory, the reverse would definitely happen. Eventually Wei would overwhelm Shu in the long run (which it did)
Says you, many in the Shu government disagreed. The Shu-Wu alliance was more powerful than Wei, and held a much more defensible territory. Wei was also very unstable from Cao Rui's death onward. It's quite hard to make a case for the northern expeditions being the best strategy for Shu's survival.
>>733527
The Novel.
The Three Brothers spawning shitloads of folk tales.
Zhuge Liang spawning shitloads of folk tales.
Sichuan Province being the Texas of China. Its capital: Chengdu, was the Shu capital, and pretty much THE Rebel Capital for many dynastic attempts in Chinese history.
>>733826
>Yes, excuse him for not destroying an enemy 100 times bigger.
You speak as if he did when he didn't. I don't deny stalling Zhuge Liang was brilliant but it wasn't due to Zhuge Liang's incompetentence.
>Wei was also very unstable from Cao Rui's death onward.
And you think Shu could have totally predicted and prepared for it?
>t's quite hard to make a case for the northern expeditions being the best strategy for Shu's survival.
Either they gambled now to take some land (and at least keep Wei on the defense) or wait for 10 to 15 years later and let Wei be too strong than both can handle it
>>733863
>and at least keep Wei on the defense
See, this is the problem. You have an infantry based army entrenched in a fortified montainous region, and you're fighting against a cavalry based army based on the plains, why the fuck would you want it to be on the defensive? You want it to waste itself on your walls.
>it wasn't due to Zhuge Liang's incompetentence
The little shit himself admitted to bungling the logistics and not bringing nearly enough supplies. He totally underestimated his enemy and mismanaged the whole operation.
>>733935
>why the fuck would you want it to be on the defensive? You want it to waste itself on your walls.
I dont understand? Are you saying Shu should have remained on the defensive. That will only delay the inevitable Wei war machine that will overwhelm their defenses through its sheer economic dominance
>The little shit himself admitted to bungling the logistics and not bringing nearly enough supplies
He was expecting to raid the supplies past that fortress. Too bad he didn't foresee Hao Zhao's genius in defending said fortress
>>733965
So instead you choose to *quicken* the inevitable by attacking a superior enemy on his terms instead of waiting for vulnerabilities like Wu did?
Smart.
You yorself said it was an impossible job to win those campaigns, so clearly the offensive approach was just a waste of resources.
>>733965
>He was expecting to raid the supplies past that fortress. Too bad he didn't foresee Hao Zhao's genius in defending said fortress
What a military genius: no plan b and out-thought by a one-battle-phenom.
>>733995
Well Zhuge Liang did try to exploit weakness as much as he can. The offensive approach was a gamble coz either way Shu will still lose. Either Zhuge Liang tries (and fails) to win at least something now or don't and definitely lose in the long run. Although desu it was Jiang Wen's expeditions that truly exhausted Shu's war machine.
>>734003
Wei couldn't really capitalized on the victory since the Shu army was still relatively intact
>>733245
Can someone brief me on the three kingdoms? What's the difference between them?
>>734111
Just watch the tv show or play the game.
>>734188
I just finished the TV show. Where should I start on the games? There's like 12 Romance of the Three Kingdoms and 8 or 9 Dynasty Warriors.
>>734429
The most recent Dynasty Warriors. It's the same story, just focusing on different characters. The most recent has the best graphic/gameplay because they're all pretty similar.
>>734429
Dynasty Warriors are extremely over the top portrayals of the era. The characterisations started out quite close to the book, but as the series went on (especially since 5) it began to favor Shu less and less,while introducing more anime stylings (waifus included).
The first game for the PS1 is actually a fighting game without any plot.
3,4 and 5 for the PS2 were great fun games, one better than the other in almost every aspect. 6 was probably the worst of all time though, total miss.
7 I liked especially since it tried to portray Cao Cao, Wu and almost everyone other than Liu Bei in a more positive light than usual. However the anime elements the games have been adopting in time has gotten a bit annoying to me. Haven't played 8+.
>>734623
ROTK follows the story of the romance like the name suggest
Imagine a total war with much less battle mechanics amd more role playing values
>>734623
Dynasty Warriors is not that intensive of a game. You push buttons and things happen, and you get to hear over-the-top voice acting and that's the extent of it. I like it and everything, but the first two times I played 8 I had no idea what was happening, story or game wise.
>>733692
Liu Bang, the founder of the Han took a similar position far from the court, and came back.
>>733719
There is a med2 mod.
>>734623
>DMC, Bayonetta
Nothing like those. Playing DW is very relaxing, you're pretty much a farmer mowing down chinks. The games are at their best playing characters with wide swings like Zhao Yun just cutting down swats of minions. A couple hours, and you'll start to sing field songs like a farmer of yore.
>>733719
Doesn't Total War go against everything that battles and politics were about in RTK?
>>733557
>>733574
>>733629
The popularity of the works of Benjamin Wales is quite worrisome. He has the passion and personal integrity, sure, but his classical Chinese is rather suspect at times, he relies too much on de Crespigny with not even a mention of Chittick or Cutter, and he has an annoying habit of not providing specific sources or references, especially when making some rather... interesting... interpretations.
>>734711
It would still be fun for utilizing the setting. No one really objects to DW's portrayal of the era.
>>734765
>Implying heroes of that era didn't have musou powers that mowed down hundreds of men like grass
>>733384
??? Ayys? In my Wu??
>>733771
Nothing short of DW9 scans will revive /eagg/.
>>733708
this
>>733245
The history made for a great Chinese genocide simulator.
>>733245
AMBITIONS
SON
O
N
>>733466
Really the problem was that Sun Quan's emotions could get the best of him and later on in life he fell prey to the court intrigues of his daughter and her cousins. If Sun Deng never died Wu might've been way better off but he did and then Sun Quan couldn't really decide between Sun He and Sun Ba and let Sun Luban and Sun Jun fuck his kingdom up.
>>733518
Zhuge Liang was a great administrator by all accounts but yes is massively overrated as a military genius.
Really I'd say Lu Bu is even more overrated. He was a strong warrior apparently but got his shit pushed in by Sun Jian constantly during the campaigns against Dong Zhuo, was a poor leader, absolutely retarded in all other manners and died a fitting death. Sun Jian is far and away the biggest badass of the entire late Han period IMO.
>>733651
>This nigger put together what was probably the best executed campaign in the whole period.
The high level of Wu is really insane. Zhou Yu to Lu Su (who didn't do much militarily but was a great diplomat with incredible foresight) to Lu Meng to Lu Xun to Lu Kang is on a level above almost everyone else. If the actual tippy top leadership hadn't gone to shit (i.e. Sun Deng doesn't die and there's no succession crisis) who knows if Jin ever unites the land or if Wu's able to eventually take advantage of a weak post-Sima Zhao Jin.
>>735560
>Yuan Shu's fuccboi
>died doing biddings for Yuan Shu
He is pretty based for beating Lu Bu though
>>733684
>Wei
Guan Yu :^)
In reality I'd consider Xiahou Dun overrated. People consider him this ultra-badass but historically the guy doesn't come off as a great warrior and got outsmarted by fucking Lu Bu of all people. Surprisingly good administrator though.
>>734489
I think 8's a little weaker overall. The problem is they're really running out of notable people to add for some factions (Wei, Shu) and not in others (plenty of Wu people still not in, no late era Wu characters, severe lack of basically any non-Wei/Wu/Shu/Jin characters).
I'd say that the reason 7's story works like that is because it's pretty obvious the presentation of it was influenced heavily by the TV show.
>>735844
The Sun weren't really in any position though. It basicaly took Sun Ce being bold enough and winning a bunch of relatively quick victories to bring them to the state where they didn't have to be Yuan Shu's bitches.
>>735865
>The problem is they're really running out of notable people to add for some factions (Wei, shu)
What? There's tons of people that still need to be added for those two factions
Wei:
Man chong
Xun Yu
Etc
Shu:
Wang Ping
Liao Hua
Etc
What's the best adaption of the Three Kingdoms and where can I find it?
>>736265
There are free versions of the novel everywhere and the 2010 TV series is GOTY. The older one isn't bad either if you can stand the cheaper effects.
>>736300
Where can I watch the TV series?
>>736323
All of it is on YouTube
Why isn't pang Tong regarded higher? Much less Ma Chao?
>>736670
>pang Tong
He gave his life for a hack.
Guan Yu was on the side of Shu, so they win.
>>736670
Pang Tong was unfortunately relevant for only a short period of time before dying. As for Ma Chao, after joining Shu he really didn't do much, and before that he royally screwed up and got most of his family killed.
>>736861
Ma Chao's only achievement is sitting in northern Bashu to keep a truce with barbarian tribes.
Based on Liu Bei's physical description in ROTK, was Liu Bei a we wuz?
No love for Dian Wei and Xu Zhu? Probably the best body guards ever.
>>737226
His main claim to fame was orchestrating the capture of Yizhou and eventually Chengdu, but he died before that was completed.
In the novel he also helps pull off the fire attack at Chibi and was an excellent administrator.
>>737226
He was responsible for the conquest of Yi province and helped in the takeover of Jing. He was probably the only decent strategist of Shu.
>>737199
>We wuz huangdi and fen
He behaved like a dindu for sure. Physical descriptions in the novel are purely symbolic tho.
>>737199
Yes, and Sun Quan was a purple bearded anime character.
>>735856
Misrepresented would be better than overrated. People think of him as a warrior because of the games, but in both the novel and history he was really a scholar with a sword. His main duties under Cao Cao were military and civil administration, winning battles was never his job.
And more than good he was an exceptional administrator, he basically revolutionized the agricultural outputs of the provinces under him.
It's really silly to see how people view the eye scene as a proof of badassery, when in reality it was meant to underline how filial and devout (the bureaucrat's qualities) he is.
>>733574
>He personally wrote the history of his life and ensured that he was remembered how he wished, which was certainly an impressive propaganda effort.
>It is infinitely frustrating to me to see a man with no military talent whatsoever held up as the greatest mind of his age. It is infuriating to see someone who abused his power for his own personal gain and that of his close friends treated like a virtuous man. And it’s pretty irritating to see him credited with inventing things that existed for centuries. The fictional Zhuge Liang gets credit for so, so many things and he doesn’t deserve an ounce of it.
Makes you wonder how many historical 'greats' actually achieved what the history books said they did.
>>737376
Good point. While reading or discussing history I can't help but sigh sometimes thinking about all the information lost in time, and how what we view as established history may be nothing but propped-up bullshit by undeserving faggots at the expense of the true heroes. Now I'm gonna be depressed for a week. God I hate history. I'm out. Later fags.
>>733245
Wu. Best generals.
>>733245
Finally. I have a reason to post this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLfbcwf3Am0
Chinese song singing about the glory of Wu and Sun Quan da real boss
