So is it actually bullshit or are Diamond's theories sound?
I don't know what's so revolutionary about "people have advantages based on their environment". Seems like common sense to me tbqpfhwy lad
>or
is the problem. Many of Diamond's observations are pretty much incontrovertible, others aren't, but people want him to be all right or all wrong.
he's a reactionary against the great man theorists and he wrote a book attacking the idea that whites rule the world due to an inherent racial supremacy, an idea taken seriously by no one who is taken seriously.
There are alot of things in his book that are insightful, and also some that take too much liberty. If you want to read a book about how people came to be, its a good book.
My suggestion is to treat it more like a very long persuasive essay than a history textbook.
> "The scope and the explanatory power of this book are astounding."
I would say that generally his ideas are sound, but as with everything, there are plenty of exceptions. It is common sense that groups of people have advantages based on their environment, but that does not mean that, for example, ALL people whose cultures developed physically close to livestock animals MUST have superior immune systems.
/his/ nails it once again.
Diamond's thesis is solid, but nothing particularly new or revolutionary. Most thinking men know that some areas have an advantage over others based on position, access to trade, agricultural projects, speed of transportation and lack of geographic barriers, etc.
It's mostly reaffirming this.
But the problem with people is as >>731202 said, people are only wanting Diamond to be 100% right or 100% wrong, which can't be done.
there's points that Diamond misses, such as certain people-groups underperforming when given the right conditions that Diamond describes, which some people say is related to lifestyle differences or what people prioritize in their goals (survival/sustainability vs. outward expansion), when people set their mind to something and have enough hands, they can make or break just about anything, but it has to center around what those goals are, and culture can be a disconnect as to where people place their priorities and work towards.
>>731195
Well parts of it arre obviously true. The book itself is actually pretty sloppy and messes up alot of the small details so people like to give it shit for that. Now obviously though this method of determination only works at the largest scale. Like why aboriginials only managed to invent sticks
>>731195
The book is sloppily written and almost all of his theories have been torn apart by mainstream historians.
>>731195
Historians get mad because it's reductionist.
It's flawed because it's not particularly rigorous.
Plebs think it is common sense even thought that's in hindsight.
It's mostly right though.
>>731923
>almost all of his theories have been torn apart by mainstream historians.
Environmental influences aren't important?
>>731939
Hahahaha. You are a fucking idiot.
All of his assertions are wrong.
"Land is more fertile in Europe." Wrong. The weather is colder and the soil more acidic.
"Europe is not geographically divided"
Fucking moronic. This idiot seems to think that there are no mountain ranges in Europe, or outright separation by sea.
So on. Literally nothing he says has any truth or relevance.
>>731956
P.S. And my favorite one, that I am going to throw in just because I have to:
"There are no docile animals in Africa"
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. What a know-nothing.
>>731195
White Guilt: the book
>>731195
It makes white supremacists mad because the thesis is that whites dominated the world mostly because of environmental factors, and not because the white race is superior.
Which is really odd, because another reading of the book is that these environmental factors empowered the white race to become the dominant force on the planet. But I guess his theory isn't racial enough.
Hey I had that guy as a professor
>>731956
>Land is more fertile in Europe. Wrong. The weather is colder and the soil more acidic
Two factors somehow encompass all the influences on soil Quality.
>Literally nothing he says has any truth or relevance.
kek
>>731978
>It makes white supremacists mad because
It's not the content of the book itself that makes me mad, because it's always possible to debate rationally about even the most poorly researched and argued books. What makes me angry is that the media uncritically peddles this shit and it's a really striking coincidence that Diamond is a Jew writing anti-European polemics.
>>731985
>two factors somehow encompass all the influences on soil quality
>posts one more factor
Well done, retard. By your logic it looks like fucking Paraguay should be the God-emperors of mankind then.
>>731195
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/2bv2yf/guns_germs_and_steel_chapter_3_collision_at/
>>731990
>Jew writing anti-European polemics.
I'm sorry, let me revise that to
>It makes white supremacists mad because because he's a JEEEEWWWWWWWWWW
>>731985
>Two factors somehow encompass all the influences on soil Quality.
Looking at that, we see that the best soil exists not in Europe, but in America and the Steppes.
And yes, temperature affects the length of the growing season. You would know that if you knew anything at all about the topic at hand.
>kek
Nice argument there. You sure convinced me. I am totally going to abandon all logic now and go agree with you on account of your persuasive rhetoric.
>>731999
Environmental factors include much more than just soil quality, and most factors influence others.
>posts one more factor
Yes I'm sure that the US Department of Agriculture is using a single factor to evaluate 'soil performance' and soil resilience'
>>731999
>what is aggregate
>>732006
>he's not redpilled about the jews
I know it's THE CURRENT YEAR and all but I feel bad for you.
>>731195
It's Cultural Marxist apologia that implies we're all equal, and that race was never a factor.
>Blame it on geography
>Push it with sentimentalism
>Ignore objective metrics of intelligence
But, gee, you speak the white man's language, wear the white man's clothes, and use the white man's sciences, and suddenly "Being what has nothing to do with being successful!"
I swear, if you believe this, please trade places with Somalians in Somalia, or even a black person from a large black community. Try and "Enrich" them, and tell me how successful are you.
>>731990
> muh joos
Considering jews are overrepresented in academics this shouldn't be surprising at all.
>>732006
It's obvious we're dealing with a retard here. Not surprising, given that he's a Jared Diamond fan
>>732009
It seems to be depicting the modern situation btw, the middle east (the fertile crescent) used to be one of the better regions, and even north Africa used to be less arid.
>>732021
>>732022
I dont think you can argue that geographic determinism is a real thing. That isnt an originally cultural marxist concept.
>>732022
>appropriating jew science as white science
>>732023
>he's uncritical enough that he never asked why jews are overrepresented in academia
inb4 muh 112 IQ meme
>>732022
>Do you know anything more on the topic than /pol/ memes?
>>732034
>/pol/ isn't right
>>732022
Jared Diamond is utter shit, and his theories can be easily taken apart, but when you start to go full /pol/ it just makes people think you are biased.
>>732033
>he's uncritical enough that he never asked why jews are overrepresented in academia
>muh 112 IQ meme
Maybe because Jews are the master race?
>>732032
>implying jew arent white
What are they? purple
>>732033
The reason as of why Jews are overrepresented doesn't make it any less dumb to claim that it's a "really striking coincidence that Diamond is a Jew".
>>732039
>whites on top
>its because whites are smart
>jews on top
>its a jewish conspiracy
>>731273
I don't think that's his point at all. In the book he expresses how germs effected the isolated undeveloped groups more than us because of our history of trade bringing plagues which gave us a chance to develop resistance and immunity. Surely there were diseases we (Europeans) were subject to from coming to the Americas but our medicine and nutrition probably helped us a lot more than theirs helped them.
>>732038
Let people think what they want. The truth doesn't change based on what the brainwashed masses or the media say.
>>732039
>Jews are the master race
That's a funny way to spell Finn.
>>732040
>dude black people aren't black they're brown lmao
>>732041
Diamond is a Jew that writes anti-European polemics though, which I find interesting.
>>731939
Of course Environments have influences, but they're not enough to determine the success of a culture.
It has to come from the people, because a people who are driven, who are resourceful, and who are intelligent can make proper use of their environment rather than "Be in tune" with it.
It's a way to excuse any lack of agency on the part of the less successful groups of people on the planet. Making excuses for them won't improve them, but will make them entrenched in their degenerate world view. Why? Because there's no challenge, and when there's no challenge, there's no drive.
I'm sorry, but no- people are not equal, and giving people any sort of opportunity, environmental or social, won't guarantee any good outcome, but will likely result in those advantages being squandered.
There are so, so, so many instances of countries with 1st world resources being wasted on a group of fuckups who don't want to admit what a shitty people they are- and if they did, "Oh, okay, I guess we go about our business."
And then these people complain or someone will play the world's smallest violin about them when they get taken over by people who are just better than they are in many respects.
I am a student at UCLA and my friend is taking his class next quarter.
What should she ask/say to him, /his/?
>>731990
Ah, yes the good ole "Any Jewish man who writes something thats not white supremacist is trying to eliminate the white race" schtick. An idea you would realize is idiocy when Jews themselves historically mixed with the local populations of where they lived. It's why you have White Ashkenazis in America and Brown Middle-Easterner Mizrahis in Israel. So by your logic Jews in American are trying to have themselves killed. I also fail to see how saying certain societies have benefitted from having good soil/trade route access/etc is "anti-european."
>>732050
I don't give a shit about the politics, I'm talking about the science.
>>732031
It's being employed to rationalize a cultural marxist concept. That is, replace the proletariat with "Oppressed Minorities" = Multiculturalism as replacement for classlessness.
>>732056
>Jews themselves historically mixed
No, Jews have always kept themselves separate from host populations by restricting outmarriage as much as possible. They don't view themselves as white. Goyim are white.
Are you done engaging in pro-Jewish apologetics yet?
>>732034
Maybe you shouldn't dismiss people who are skeptical of your ideology-posing-as-respectable-discipline.
You probably have not considered the influence your educators have had on you for a large amount of your formative years, and what influence they've been under, what ideologies they've been imbibing and pushing onto you.
Nope, that would be paranoid and not at all reasonable because you think you can think for yourself.
>>732068
>social science
>Environmental influences
Biology and Ecology m8.
And that paragraph is filled with speculation.
>>732055
My nigga, I took him last year.
tell your friend to say "the lanisters send their regards" and then stab him
>>732044
To my knowledge only ones that went to Europe from the Americas was syphilis. And the medicine in the Americas was actually pretty good and extensive if you go by primary sources and the knowledge of contemporary medicine-men/women. Hernan Cortes himself in a letter to the King of Spain said that it wasn't necessary to bring any doctors as the physicians of the natives were better.
>>732072
I'm not a fucking social scientist you dip
>>732073
>ecology
Lmao tell me more about your controlled ecological experiments lmao
>>732082
>I can't into statistics.
>>732072
>i know this because my infographics told me so
>>732062
Yea, just like laws against interracial relationships in the U.S prevented Whites from fucking American Blacks into having around 20-30% european genes. People are going to fuck, It's how I have about .1% Ashkenazi DNA from my Polish side, they just usually keep quiet about the father. An Ashkenazi is white just as a Mizrahi is not. Even if this wasn't readily apparent just from looking at them. Their are extensive genetic studies showing the differences in historical Jewish populations.
>>732044
Except of course that Africans and South Americans did have trade as well. So that blows that idea out of the water. Not to mention the fact that South America and parts of Africa are a jungle, where disease-spreading insects thrive. If anything best benefitted Europeans, it wasn't immunity through extraordinary contact and inmunity, but medicine and public hygiene.
>>732038
Of course, I am biased. All people are biased because they will always have some sort of prejudice based on what they know and experienced.
Now it's a matter of what sort of bias or prejudice or experience it is that determines the validity of a person's point of view.
As far as I'm concerned, the whole bleeding heart approach Diamond has is a foundation towards trying to logically connect "What is" and "What ought to be" and it starts with an attempt at shaming white people using "history" as a basis for how whitey should off himself.
You're not going to get this from China, for example. As far as the Chinese are concerned, fuck you, fuck everyone else, China's the greatest country on Earth, anyone who dares to write a book like Diamond's will disappear and no longer have ever existed.
That's how you deal with dissent from the narrative that you want the people to believe. That's how people have always dealt with dissent.
>>732095
>keep calling it science mate
Will do.
>>732101
>I have no integrity and will pretend any criticism I can't answer doesn't exist
Good show.
>>732097
What I'm saying is you should attack the flawed ideas rather than the motive behind it, or the messenger. That is the best way to discredit something.
>>732097
No one should ever consider their "team" may have once done a dick move. We should all be like shithole China and live in a fantasy realm where we're the power rangers and their fuckin rita repulsa.
>>732104
Jared Diamonds been done on here multiple times and I'm a bit bored of it. If you hadn't noticed you were replying to my points as if they were identical to everything J.D says.
I mostly agree with >>731292
Particularly
>people are only wanting Diamond to be 100% right or 100% wrong, which can't be done.
>>732057
You can't avoid politics. Even science can be mobilized or drafted to justify an ideology. Why? Because even if you're the smartest scientist on the planet, you still need the ignorant masses to fund your research.
And by golly, if the powers that be wants you to say that global warming and gender theory are real things, then you better find new "research" that justifies it, or you become a pariah, labeled a crank, and then you get to look for a real job.
>>731195
diamond is a hack. there's 0 evidence to think that evolution suddenly stopped below the neck, 200,000 years ago when the races diverged, but that somehow it continued in every other aspect of human existence. just not the brain.
bullshit.
>>732133
That's not Diamond.
>>732133
But Asians and Jews are smarter than you.
>the shit people are saying in this thread
I remember the early threads we had on this book in which the general consensus was that Diamond was, overall, wrong because, in addition to other mistakes, he
1) Glossed over geological facts that not only served as a counterexample but even seemed to undermine the thesis
2) Made patently false claims about certain nation's military capabilities (mostly pertaining to cavalry)
Do we still have that screencap of that one anon taking apart his claims one by one? I know reddit had a lot of threads dismantling Diamond.
Now it seems like consensus opinion here is polarizing around
>Diamond is basically right about everything even where he is wrong it doesn't hurt his case
and
>/pol/ memes
What is happening here?
>>732144
Your thinking of a different jew that /pol/ dislikes for what you first mentioned.
Can you say where explicitly mention this as the sole influence?
>>732146
>even where he is wrong it doesn't hurt his case
How do unrelated points refute each other, rather than just the particular conclusions drawn by one dude from the information?
>>732115
>No one should ever consider their "team" may have once done a dick move
An absurd notion. All throughout history, man has competed for limited resources. All of nature, in fact, has competed for limited resources. The arabs, the chinese, the native americans and africans, etc. Every culture on the planet has been involved in wars of conquest.
The fact that Europeans succeeded on a global scale is not "bad", as it was what any culture would have done given the means. In fact, it was a great good for the world, as European modern values led Europe to treat the conquered people with some degree of respect for human life, and educated them and left them the infrastructure (physical and intellectual) for a modern civilization.
Were it any other culture so successful, the result would have not been an uplifting, but slavery and genocide, as they would not have practiced Europes Christian or Enlightenment ideals.
>>732144
>redpilled asians
The future suddenly looks much brighter.
>>732146
>Do we still have that screencap of that one anon taking apart his claims one by one?
I was really hoping someone would post this.
>>732164
>given the means
Are you implying the means was genetic superiority?
>but slavery and genocide, as they would not have practiced Europes Christian or Enlightenment ideals.
>topkek
>>732170
You should watch out. He just wants to take the place of the Jew as overlord of whiteys.
>>732175
At least the yellow man is honest about his malevolent designs. Jews are just dishonest.
>>732180
You think he's being honest? He's just trying to use you to perform a coup.
>>732152
that's exactly what he argues. it's the basis of his book, and the following points he make rely on the factuality of the first points, relating to domesticable animals and crops.
he says whites wouldn't have developed writing, steel, technology, or disease resistance if not for the avialability of domesticable animals and plants, which he says cross the east west axis of the asian continent more easily than north south.
not only is it wrong, but he uses this to deny the fact that humans continued to evolve.
he is literally arguing that beans and wheat don't spread north-south, and that evolution stopped 200k years ago. because if either of those are untrue, his entire premise falls apart.
>>732188
I was talking about
> there's 0 evidence to think that evolution suddenly stopped below the neck, 200,000 years ago
>he uses this to deny the fact that humans continued to evolve.
Where does he say this?
>he says whites wouldn't have developed....
No, he's saying that these features that were present had an influence on what actually occurred.
>>732170
asians want independence from the retarded rule of democracy enforced by america. we refuse to accept immigrants. we refuse to transition into democracy. we WILL kill our muslim and african enemies. you better hope europeans wake up fast enough to not oppose china in this venture.
>>732195
humans emerged out of africa 200k years ago, those were teh first levant settlers. that means blacks and whites diverged at this time period.
if he argues that evolutionary differences don't exist, and because they don't exist, they cannot effect human cognition, then he's saying that humans stopped evolving 200k years ago. but only below the neck of course. only the brain stopped evolving.
are you dense?
>>732200
>humans emerged out of africa 200k years ago, those were teh first levant settlers. that means blacks and whites diverged at this time period.
Modern humans evolved in Africa ~200,000 years ago, an early groups left africa and settled the levant ~90,000 (IIRC), the later out of africa migration that resulted in Australian aboriginal, europeans etc left around 70,000 years ago, the earliest burials were around ~100,000, art (minus 1 or 2 Homo erectus example) became common later still. Evolution didn't stop, but not every cultural factor is due to evolution.
>>732200
>if he argues that evolutionary differences don't exist, and because they don't exist
What?
>>732200
>genetic determinism
What you considered what caused people to evolve that way? Geographic determinism.
>>732208
>>732211
to immediately discard the idea that technology differences between civilizations don't exist due to genetic factors, such as the ability to do math, math which is necessary for building large structures, planning harvests, navigation, or steam engines, requires proof that there is in fact no difference. ancient europeans built structures relying upon mathematics. that launched europeans into the space age.
MODERN blacks still cannot do arithmetic. MODERN blacks still cannot, then, do calculus. so what makes diamond think domesticable flora and fauna was the important distinction between technology in civilizations. now, TODAY, blacks still cannot produce technology. and we're supposed to believe the historical rates of progress are not due to inherent capability in executive function?
he needs to make a solid case on the matter. as is, he neglects to mention MORE SALIENT AND PARSIMONIOUS data in favor of his own crackpot theory.
>>732213
diamond rejects the idea that geography changed genes, and that genes created different rates of technological progress.
he says that geography causes different rates of population density, and that population density increases technology, irrespective of genetics.
he's an idiot. he literally says that genes play NO role.
>>732240
>muh generalisations.
>>732242
>he literally says that genes play NO role.
Not the first time I've asked in this thread, but source?
>>732244
iq differences aren't a generalization. they're a well documented phenomenon. all psychologists and neurologists agree that iq capacity is at least 50% genetic.
you're literally overlooking the MOST IMPORTANT DATA TO THE ISSUE out of political correctness
this is why people think diamond is an idiot.
>>732250
You're talking about Stephen Jay Gould you dumb fuck, you literally don't even know the name of the person you're talking about, and mistook it for Diamond.
>>732248
http://www.jareddiamond.org/Jared_Diamond/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel.html
the dude is an idiot. he says "if iq is genetic why did the first civilizations arise in the fertile crescent?" (ignoring that at the time humans had not reached most parts of europe or asia yet)
he's literally a greentext poster with a phd
Speedboat to Polynesia was a good chapter for me personally. I'd never even considered New Guinea's colonial strife before.
>>732254
are you an idiot? are you literally retarded?
inherent to diamond's work is human cognition. he denies the role of genetics in cognitive function.
I said blacks, to this day, show stunted cognitive abilities, due to genetics. an anon told me I was generalizing, so I told him iq wasn't a generalization, but a real thing.
you. are. dumb. please kill yourself.
>>732257
Confirmed for b8.
>the dude is an idiot. he says "if iq is genetic why did the first civilizations arise in the fertile crescent?" (ignoring that at the time humans had not reached most parts of europe or asia yet)
Modern humans were in Asia like 60,000 years ago, Europe ~40,000. agriculture developed ~11,000 bc.
I read the book a while back, I'd like the particular paragraph.
>>732263
>he denies the role of genetics in cognitive function.
Where?
>an anon told me I was generalizing
That was me.
>>732264
you're aware that those "modern humans" in europe and asia are not the ancestors of the modern racial groups of these areas, correct?
in fact, they were so few in number, particularly in asia, that we literally only have a few jaw fragments of them, not even an entire skeleton. modern asians share almost NO dna with them, and the teeth we HAVE found are a completely different shape. look up sinodont patterns.
>>732269
I literally posted a page from his fucking website where he denies it.
fuck this topic. fuck you idiots.
>>732272
I'm not talking about Denisovans or Neanderthal, That was an earlier wave of Homo erectus leaving Africa ~1,100,000 years ago.
>>731960
And what docile animals might one find in Africa?
>>732197
>independence from the retarded rule of democracy enforced by america. we refuse to accept immigrants. we refuse to transition into democracy. we WILL kill our muslim and african enemies.
This post was so great I shed a tear.
>>732273
>I have never heard proponents of this view discuss why IQ led to germs, a major driver of European conquests, also arising preferentially in Europe. Proponents of this view also don’t discuss the bodies of research by botanists, zoologists, and social scientists underlying the interpretations of Guns, Germs, and Steel.
Also you linked a summary
> I shall now summarize Guns, Germs, and Steel’s question
>>732276
The zebra
>>732273
He doesn't deny it. He says there are things that play a bigger role.
>but he literally denies it because he said this one thing and now im projecting
>>732021
I see this image and all I can think of
>These people don't know the difference between tame and domestication
>>732282
you think a post relating to diamond's complete ignoral of the IQ question somehow related to stephen gould. not only are you a retard, but you're also lazy. ctrl f genetics and it's a little past halfway through.
why are you even in this fucking topic. you don't know how to track posts, you clearly aren't familiar with diamond's book. kill yourself.
I can give you an explanation but I can't make your brain work properly.
>>732291
"One problem with the view is that there is no convincing evidence for higher IQ, and for stronger genetic factors contributing to IQ, among people of European and Japanese ancestry, despite much effort devoted to obtaining such evidence."
He is literally denying fact.
>>732275
erectus was NOT sapiens
>>732295
He doesn't deny evolution in IQ. He says the evidence for IQ is dubious and differences can be explained by things other than IQ. According to his thesis it is not the major driving factor. He doesn't deny that it may be a contributing factor.
>>732304
>He is literally denying fact.
It figures that someone with a low IQ interprets what he says that way.
>>732295
It looks like critiquing IQ rather than denying a genetic influence on intelligence?
>>732307
>the evidence is dubious
If the evidence for IQ is dubious pretty much everything in social science can be thrown out then, because there aren't any constructs that have proven as reliable as IQ.
>x contradicts my ideology therefore x is dubious
>>732307
he says there's no evidence that east asian iq is 107, and that black iq is in the low 80s. blacks growing up in japan, of course, still have low 80s iqs, nothing seeming to close the gap. so asians can do math, and blacks can't.
then he says that cattle and wheat are the reason europeans can build ships in the iron age (requiring math) but blacks cannot.
uh....
>>732317
>[citation needed]
>>731195
Genes, and as a consequence race are the first and foremost factor in a nations success. Everything else is secondary.
He completely ignores the science on IQ and race. I read the intro and gave up, he makes utterly unfounded assertions and doesn't at all back them up, New Guineans are probably more intelligent than white people and IQ doesn't mean anything for example. I am sure his ideas about how the environment are reasonable but he does not prove that no racial differences in behaviour exist and he does not prove that these differences would have had no affect on human history. His argument falls apart, he is attacking a position that almost no one holds, that genes are the ONLY thing that affect human history and his book only manages to do this. Pic related, read that to see how different races have evolved to be different.
>>734061
It's been lauded by Time and the rest of leftist media because It's so anti-genetic and therefore pro-equalitarianism
only reason why it's relevant
literal Pulitzer bait
>>731273
He doesn't say that it is certain though, he said it is the most likely outcome - he acknowledges that it is not impossible that aboriginals in Australia would be the most technoloically advanced, just extremely unlikely
>>732286
Zebras are complete bastards, they are nothing like horses and will fuck your shit up
>>731195
Take a map, look at madagascar. Now measure the distance between madagascar and continental africa. Notice that the distance between Carthage and Rome is bigger than that.
Rflect on the fact that madagascar war first settled by people from south east asia.
Go read Diamond "explanation" for this.
Now laugh and throw that book in the garbage bin where it belongs.
>>734514
I don't recall the specific explanation but surely thats because the climate, fertility of the land and lack of domesticated animals meant a lower population?
>>734528
kek
>>734568
>kek
wow, thats a really great rebutal of my argument, thanks for enlightening me
>>734528
population density has very little effect on the spatial memory and verbal iq needed to create written language, write star charts, and navigate.
keep in mind the indonesians who landed in madagascar THOUSANDS of years before africans traveled halfway across the world on fishing dinghys. the pop density of indonesia was also incredibly thin at the time.
africans literally just are too dumb to read, to do math, to build boats.
they're STILL too dumb to read or do math
africans couldn't build the WHEEL for fucks sake
>>734968
>population density has very little effect on the spatial memory and verbal iq needed to create written language, write star charts, and navigate
The fuck? It's pretty much universally accepted you need a certain level of urbanisation (pop density) to develop writing.
Plus you are ignoring the fact that written language only actually appeared in a handful of places, tending to just spread and be adapted.
>>735025
I said it has very limited ability upon the IQ required to create it.
there were a fair number of societies with high population density that never developed writing. olmecs, aztecs, and mayans being the most famous ones.
there were also african empires with intensive agriculture that never developed writing.
also, writing has emerged EVERYWHERE in europe and east/se asia. EVERYWHERE. just because it got supplanted by universal standards doesn't mean it didn't emerge everywhere.
>>735038
also I should mention that even though the indians developed writing, it was never used for anything other than religious purposes and very limited trade registers.
their system was so fucking retarded that in order to encode a page of a modern text, it required about a body's weight worth of material, each one of which requires about a year's worth of production from a learned scholar. they were brittle cards strung together by strings, each card fitting little more than a word or two's worth of information.
they weren't very smart
>>735038
>also, writing has emerged EVERYWHERE in europe and east/se asia. EVERYWHERE. just because it got supplanted by universal standards doesn't mean it didn't emerge everywhere.
Bullshit. Everywhere, Africa included had chicken scratch symbols which meant something. Writing proper only appeared in a handful of places
>>735078
ur dumb m8. south americans were dumb. they had to make incredibly detailed carvings of objects or verbs to make it even remotely legible to themselves.
contrast with slightly (but not much) smarter indians, with their own awful fucking system.
meanwhile each individual SE asian country, to this day, still has its own script, written on paper. and they're not even smart asians.
>>732123
>people criticize diamond for being too Eurocentric
>/pol/tards criticize him for not being racial enough
I don't even agree with him but the whole thing around him is a shitshow
>>732094
From what I understand, most tropical diseases in the Americas were introduced with the slave trade.
>>731292
I think Diamond is well aware of that, given that a big part of Collapse is about how culture influences whether a society will survive ecological crises, or even avoid them entirely through prudent and farsighted management.
Anyway, one of his conditions for progress was a moderate level of geographical boundries so a thriving culture can usually defend itself (but still trade with friendly neighbours), but weakened ones could be conquered or destroyed. So underperforming groups will be swallowed up by, or fall under the hegemony of, other groups with more effective cultures and policies
>"tame =/= domesticated"
very true
but do you think there were just docile cows wandering around Eurasia?
No. They were aurochs. Big aggressive beasts.
It took thousands of years to domesticate them.
>they didn't have any animals to domesticated
From wikipedia:
"The African list of ungulates is longer than in any other continent. The largest number of modern bovids is found in Africa (African buffalo, duikers, impala, rhebok, Reduncinae, oryx, dik-dik, klipspringer, oribi, gerenuk, true gazelles, hartebeest, wildebeest, dibatag, eland, Tragelaphus, Hippotragus, Neotragus, Raphicerus, Damaliscus). Other even-toed ungulates include giraffes, hippopotamuses, warthogs, giant forest hogs, red river hogs and bushpigs. Odd-toed ungulates are represented by three species of zebras, African wild ass, black and white rhinoceros."
Most of these are Subsaharan.
Some of those are quite skinny and skittish to be fair, but plenty of them are similar to animals that others managed to domesticate.
The idea that Subsaharan africa lacked domesticable livestock livestock is ABSURD.
>subsaharan soil sucks
maybe
but there's huge patches that don't. Africa is huge.
Whites managed to settle southern Africa and start farming right away, with typical farming equipment at the time, which was nothing special.
Rhodesia and South Africa under white rule managed to produce huge amounts of crops.
>>732292
All I can think is: you are an idiot.
First an animal is tamed and then through generations it is domesticated. You think Europeans just found a wolf and made it into a dog? Or found a wild boar and made it into a farm pig? The best specimens were bred to be docile and productive.
>>734480
I always imagined how big the balls were on the guy to look at a wild horse and say "you know what? I'm riding that sonovabitch!"
>>735038
>societies with high population density that never developed writing. olmecs, aztecs, and mayans being the most famous ones.
>>735104
All developed from the writing systems introduced through trade. All modern scripts originate either from Egypt or China.
>>731195
Oversimplified to the point of bullshit, isn't the same as bullshit. At any rate its better than 1491
ITT no one knows what artificial selection is
>>732003
God I hate these whiny nerds. They keep nitpicking Diamond's book as terrible, but if you squarely confront them and ask them is the central thesis is right they will admit it is.
>>732038
>his theories can be easily taken apart
Really? I've never heard a single argument that wasn't
>THE JOOOOS
>>731292
He actually addresses that in the book, how some group's culture may prevent them from properly exploiting their advantages as successfully as others. Or that other considerations may trump efficiency, so a society does not adopt the most efficient system. An example he gives is the QWERTY keyboard, which is deliberately designed to place the most commonly used letters in awkward positions. More sensibly designed keyboards made typing at a high WPM much easier, but the limitations of mechanical typewriters at the time meant that typing too fast would jam the machine. So in order to prevent this, a deliberately obtuse keyboard layout was implemented to force people to slow down.
A small example and he gives others more directly related to anthropology, but yeah, he covers that.
>>732286
The zebra is specifically mentioned in the book and the reasons for its unsuitability for domestication (as compared with the horse) are covered. Perhaps you should re-read the book? Or read it for the first time?
>>743541
but a lot of that is crap tho
>>739064
But we are yet to domesticate the zebra, we tired and it didn't work.
>>743547
Maybe read the book and then read the image.
Diamond is a hack, an he created a horrible piece of historical revisionism
>>743541
>That number 6 and the point about Malaria
I really hope that guy is not implying that a diseases caused by a parasite in mosquito is the same as a germ based diseases that can be transported through air.
Because that would be really fucking stupid and missing the point
>>731292
groups as an entity are a spook anyways
>>743596
im not defending diamond, or would ever try to, just that much of the information on that screencap is crap, regardles of diamond
>>734061
>genes are the ONLY thing that affect human history
>a position that almost no one holds
>>738969
>Whites in Africa did well
Couldn't this be a factor of the more advanced society they lived in, and the knowledge and skills (plus funding, trade agreements, etc.) that they brought with them? And not really a matter of race?
>>743599
It's not the same, but it's also really fucking stupid to say that europeans colonized the world because of European diseases
>>743685
No, none of it is crap. /pol/ throws out a lot of shit, probably more per capita than /b/, but that screencap is right in everything.
