Ironic kippah edition
Questions of the day:
1. Is combining milk and fish kosher?
2. How about milk and poultry?
Also: Christians are welcome to discuss and ask questions about Judaism and Jewish culture, but this is NOT the place to debate Christian topics of no relevance to Judaism.
>>709647
No matter what, you guys will throw a hissy fit whenever someone mentions Christianity.
Do you guys believe in reincarnation? If so please elaborate as to the process involved.
>>709658
To be honest most views that Jews hold vary from congregation to congregation. I asked my rabbi about his view on the afterlife and he described it as "An eternal banquet where everyone's hands are tied. You cannot feed yourself but you can feed others, so only the good will eat and the selfish will starve." I interpret this as a metaphor, like most things other Jews see. So no reincarnation.
>>709665
Ah I see, thank you.
What can you tell me about the steps taken to become a "jew" are people married in or do you simply convert?
My jewish friend said I would have to study a lot in order to convert.
>>709669
Like everything with Jews it varies from congregation to congregation. Usually you would approach the rabbi and he will deny you, but you must return and ask more and more times until he says yes. This is usually to ensure that you are dedicated. Then there is lots of study. I don't know much about conversion but I do know it doesn't happen often. Good luck however.
As for marriage, people usually just end up easing into the congregation, such as a Jewish woman bringing her gentile husband to synagogue.
Thoughts on Jews creating communism?
>>709697
People talk about Jews like they're a single hive mind, but in reality they are not. For example, Hollywood is full of Jews, but they don't have an "agenda." Same thing goes with communism. Even if Marx was Jewish, and Jews associate with communism, they are in it for personal gain or personal political agendas.
>>709709
It's almost like jews are individuals!
>>709690
Thanks, I am definitely interested. Good luck to you sir!
>>709738
Can I ask what drives you to convert?
Met a nice Jewish girl and want to impress her parents?
Do you see circumcision as a necessity for conversion?
>>709642
Technically, neither are violations of Kashrut. The first breaks a prohibition that I know is in the Gemara but don't have a page citation handy for, and the second is akin to the cooking a calf in its mothers milk, which is a different dietary prohibition to Kashrut.
>>709658
A few fringe groups do. It is not a mainstream Orthodox belief.
>>709669
If you're talking about an Orthodox conversion, it's pretty complex. Multiple rejections before you even begin to prove your serious, a year or two of study and observance of holiday details, before a ritual involving a sort of bath and possibly a circumcision at the end.
I don't know about reform Jews, but if you want to convert to an Orthodox shul you will have to study for quite literally a year or more.
>>709697
Jews in Europe tended to be politically active, especially radically politically active. There were a lot of Jews in on the outset of Communism, yes. There were also a lot of Jews on the outset of right-wing movements.
>>709903
Yes, unless it's already been done for some non-religious reason. I don't think even the reform would go back on that one, but I don't know for certain.
If Islam follows the 7 Noahide laws does that mean that potentially a billion Muslims will be in Heaven?
Is Jewish identity binary? What is the role of people with some Jewish ancestry who aren't halachically Jewish?
How do Jews know one of their maternal ancestors centuries back was not a Christian woman?
>>709967
I'd say it depends on your view of heaven from a Jewish standpoint. Most of us don't really see an afterlife in the same light as Christians or Muslims.
What exactly do you have to study to convert?
>>709995
I think (or at least in my community) that it is more about being born into a Jewish community. My mother is only half Jewish, and my father fully Jewish, but that hasn't hampered the acceptance of the Jewish communities I've interacted with.
>>709995
I would assume the Torah, but I'm not sure. Is it similar to the bar/bat mitzvah process?
>>709642
Lol bankers are but pummeled for millennium because they got shafted on being gods chosen people
Shouldn't have fucking cried when you got to the promised land
Or made an idol
Dumb idiots
What is the meaning of Moschiach?
Do jews not eat pork like muslims or is that just a meme?
>>710030
Pork is not kosher. It is not a meme. However, we do not eat shellfish or catfish, but Muslims do. We are also allowed to drink but Muslims are not .
>>709649
I saw the last thread and it was hardly a hissy fit. There's just inevitably way too many questions about christianity and the thread devolves into a christian debate club.
>>710072
So what's the reasoning behind not eating pork, shellfish or catfish?
>>710152
Basically the Torah dictates that you can only eat sea creatures with fins and scales. For example, trout are ok to eat, because of their fins and scales, but catfish are not, because they lack scales. However, the Koran does not mention anything about it, it just says something along the lines of "All creatures of the sea are yours to eat."
>>710186
Seems a bit arbitrary but allright.
>>709642
Why does the Talmud call Mary a whore and say that Jesus got his powers from Demons?
>>710220
The most prominent pop-sci theory I keep hearing about the pork thing is that it was a good way to contract trichinosis if not prepared correctly. Not sure about shellfish, though I wouldn't doubt if there were a similar line of reasoning.
>>710227
Can you tell us some of the similarities and differences in the Koran and the Torah? Do Muslims read and study the Torah?
>>710715
Not him but I found this video interesting
It talks about the bible and Islam, but since the Torah is half of the bible it still applies I think
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v2_0Z62-GO8
Jews should be gassed desu.
Especially since the fucking sticky says not to make generals.
>>710890
Fuck off, this isn't your thread
>>710715
>Can you tell us some of the similarities and differences in the Koran and the Torah?
Oh man, I really don't know that much about the Torah. I've yet to read it myself.
>Do Muslims read and study the Torah?
Some might out of personal interest and I'm pretty tempted myself but generally speaking I've met very few muslims interested in Judaism or for that matter theology outside their own.
>>710223
Not Jewish but from what I've gathered the Talmud is not cannon, it's just a collection of various Rabbis opinion and they disagree on many issues.
It's sort of like how Aquinas and Luthers books are respected but none are cannon.
>>709642
Roman Catholic here, are you guys still mad?
>>711546
Jewish here.
Some of the opinions in the Talmud, while not being canonical scripture, are considered binding opinions on the entirety of the Jewish people. Things like the inclusion of poultry as "meat" for dietary laws, for instance.
However, the majority of all opinions expressed in the Talmud are ignored, and the Talmud is usually studied for its methodology rather than a guidebook as to what laws are followed and what opinions aren't.
>>711552
Why would we be mad? Are you guys still butthurt?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Barcelona
>>711566
Not really, it's just I visited a synagogue once and the rabbi told me to get out because "You're people killed my people".
>>711588
Really? lol. I've never even heard of something like that, and we've had a few Christians attend every so often. Even once had a speaker once from the "Friends of Israel" which we only found out later were one of these Christian missionary groups.
>>711566
>During the Middle Ages, there were numerous ordered disputations between Christians and Jews.[1][2] They were connected with burnings of the talmud at the stake
>that rage
>>711604
What's a good place to start you know, attending a Judaism ceremony every once in awhile? I plan to remain Catholic, I just kinda wanna see what this whole meme is about.
>>711546
Talmud is basically commentary and rabbinical interpretations of the Torah, the idea that that Talmud is a holy scripture is rooted in the fact that the Talmud defines and clarifies many aspects of the Torah.
>>711642
I might not be the best person to ask because I am in fact Jewish and don't have that perspective, but most synagogues you can just wander in for a Friday evening service, and as long as you don't draw attention to yourself, there won't be anyone really paying you any mind.
Do be warned though, at least if you go to an Orthodox or a lot of conservative shuls, the service will be in Hebrew, which I doubt you understand. You might want to try to find a place which has a Hebrew-English Siddur or something.
>>711642
I think the best time to visit would be during the high holidays. Sometimes we get visitors at my synagogue, and often we have Gentiles come in and speak at our Sunday school.
>Jews having a homeland
No.
>>711653
Your shul isn't packed and possibly even making sure everyone there is supposed to have a seat on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur?
>>710002
>What exactly do you have to study to convert?
Hebrew, holy books, customs, history and law.
The study doesn't end with conversion, once you're a Joo you study them throughout your entire life.
>>710024
Anointed one.
>>710715
>Can you tell us some of the similarities and differences in the Koran and the Torah?
Unlike Christians, Muslims do not have the Hebrew Bible anywhere inside their canon of scripture.
The Qur'an is its own thing. It tells things that agree with the Hebrew Bible, and things that do not, concerning the "prophets of Islam" who include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Elisha, Job... - just like it does with Jesus.
The Qur'an also introduce Arabic prophets before Muhammad, like Hud and Saleh.
You can read things like Moses being struck by lightning and immediately resurrected by Allah in Surah 2:55-56, for example.
According to the Qur'an, three major scriptures predate it: the Tawrat given to Moses, the Zabur to David and the Injeel to Jesus.
Most Muslims identify the Tawrat, Zabur and Injeel as Torah, Psalms and Gospel (singular) respectively - however, both Tanakh and New Testament, as Jews and Christians know them, are considered to be corrupt by Muslims. They are not what Allah gave to his prophets.
They respect Jewish and Christian scriptures but interpret them according to a simple principle: if they agree with the Qur'an
Additionally, the Qur'an also mentions the Scrolls of Abraham, the Kitab (Book) of Yahya (John the Baptist), and the Scrolls of Moses (which are understood to be NOT the Torah/Tawrut, and separate from it), Books of Divine Wisdom, Book of Enlightenment.
The Scrolls of Abraham are identified with the Sefer Yetzirah or the pseudepigraphic Testament of Abraham, the latter less frequently, but perhaps they're right.
>Do Muslims read and study the Torah?
It's more of a scholarly thing to do, same with the New Testament.
>>711890
>They respect Jewish and Christian scriptures but interpret them according to a simple principle: when they agree with the Qur'an they're true, when they contradict with they Qur'an they're false.
fixed
What's the Tanakh?
What writings are cannon in Judaism, which are respected opinion, and what is studied but not considered cannon (for instance I know Kabbalah falls into the last category)?
>>711934
>What's the Tanakh?
It's an acronym for
תורה : Torah
נביאים: Prophets
כתובים: "Writings"
Between the three of them, they make up Orthodox Jewish written scripture.
>What writings are cannon in Judaism
The Tanach: In English, the books that make up the Tanach would be
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachai
Chronicles, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ruth, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, and finally Ezra/Nechemiah.
>which are respected opinion,
I assume by this you mean respected in the sense of actually a source of religious law? That would be the Talmud, which is comprised of the Mishnah, Braita, Tosefta, and the Gemara.
> and what is studied but not considered cannon
An enormous body of literature, which breaks down depending on your location and particular group. Generally, writings of influential rabbis where you happened to live fall in this category. So something like the Shulchan Aruch is considered a compilation of law and worthy of study, but it holds pretty much entirely Sephardi notions, Ashkenazi Jews rarely study it to anything nearly the same extent.
>>711953
You wouldn't by any chance be the exact same Jew who said that the books of the tanakh and the books of the Old Testament were different, would you? Because when you split Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles into two volumes, you get the exact same books, 39, that are in the OT.
>>709647
How is the Moshiac not relevant to Judaism again?
>>711971
I was under the impression that certain Christian groups, who don't all agree on what constitutes canon, include other books in the "Old Testament", such as Maccabees or Tobit or Judith.
>>711988
They kind of slop them in there, but don't really have the balls to say they're holy scripture. God says He's going radio silent in Malachi, and does. Next we hear of Him, He's being born in a manger.
>>712004
If your criteria for something being included in the Old Testament involves prophetic revelation, then how come you don't throw out basically all of the Ketuvim section? Esther doesn't even mention the word "God" anywhere in it.
>>712030
And yet, you can see the hand of God working in Esther, causing the king to remember Mordecai's valor in his sleeplessness.
>>712030
As to criteria, the entire tanakh is in the OT, just in different order.
No clue why you people don't put Daniel with the prophets, as he may be the second greatest prophet of Israel, and took over the College of the Magi in captivity.
I suspect it's because Daniel gives a time certain for the Messiah to be cut off, and that time was when Jesus was cut off.
483 years, to the day, from Artexerxes' proclamation that the temple could be rebuilt.
>>712060
Then if your criteria expands to "see the hand of God working" then why not include other deuterocanonical works, which I presume have stuff like that in them? (Have not read, so cannot personally vouch for them)
>>712075
>No clue why you people don't put Daniel with the prophets, as he may be the second greatest prophet of Israel, and took over the College of the Magi in captivity.
Because he's not a "real" נביא , he's "only" a חזה. Still gets divine visions, but of a lower order. But I'm not exactly an expert on the different tiers of prophetic revelation; but I do know Daniel is in a lower one.
>>712125
If they're not in the tanakh, they're not coming into the Old Testament.
Lower order?
My friend, I suggest you immediately start studying Daniel's prophecies, as they are coming true this year, next year, and for many years thereafter.
I will warn you that studying Daniel's prophesies could very well force you to realize that many of the messianic prophecies were time dependent, and expired in the past.
>>712140
>If they're not in the tanakh, they're not coming into the Old Testament.
Unless it's something like Maccabees. Tobit, Judith.... etc.
>My friend, I suggest you immediately start studying Daniel's prophecies, as they are coming true this year, next year, and for many years thereafter.
They are not prohpecies. They're visions. Look at the terms he uses when he describes his visitations. Look at 2:19, how the understanding comes seperate to the "secret". Look at 7:15 and how he talks about the "visions of his mind" whereas real prophets are immediately aware they have had prophecies, like Jacob after seeing the ladder, or the prophets in the camp with Moses (Samuel seems to have some trouble his first time around, but later actually sends for musicians so he can get in the right state of mind to prophesy)
No, Daniel is only a חזה. His visions are real, but unlike a proper prophet, he isn't supplied with Divine knowledge as to their meaning. The interpretation of such is merely Daniel's own thoughts, not necessarily correect the way you'd have it with a prophecy from someone like Joshua or Ezekiel.
>>712177
>Unless it's something like Maccabees. Tobit, Judith.... etc.
Not in the Old Testament.
Visions from God. Words from God. Prophecy.
Daniel 2
Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision. So Daniel blessed the God of heaven.
Daniel answered and said:
“Blessed be the name of God forever and ever,
For wisdom and might are His.
And He changes the times and the seasons;
He removes kings and raises up kings;
He gives wisdom to the wise
And knowledge to those who have understanding.
He reveals deep and secret things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And light dwells with Him.
“I thank You and praise You,
O God of my fathers;
You have given me wisdom and might,
And have now made known to me what we asked of You,
For You have made known to us the king’s demand.”
>>712219
Daniel 2
But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days.
Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face, prostrate before Daniel, and commanded that they should present an offering and incense to him.
The king answered Daniel, and said, “Truly your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret.”
>>712227
Daniel 3
Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, who sent His Angel and delivered His servants who trusted in Him, and they have frustrated the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they should not serve nor worship any god except their own God!
Therefore I make a decree that any people, nation, or language which speaks anything amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made an ash heap; because there is no other God who can deliver like this.”
Wake up.
YHWH is coming.
>>712219
At dinner, so only a brief reply that I'll expand later, but unless you want to claim that Catholics and Greek Orthodox aren't Christian, it is in a version of the OT.
And you fundamentally misunderstand what prophecy is. It's not just having a dream or a vision; it's about speaking in God's name, with God's authority backing you up.
>>712258
Yes, I would very much make that claim. And I would base it on yet another of Daniel's prophecies, the statue of the empires with Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold, and the Catholic and Orthodox empires the legs of iron for Rome.
The Catholics are Catholics.
The Orthodox are Orthodox.
The Christians are Christians.
The first two presume much when they also demand to be called Christians. Their cults have nothing to do with Jesus; they're self-governing.
God did back Daniel up, even in the limited quotes I gave you.
And God also backed Daniel up, by forcing Nebuchadnezzar to act like a mindless animal for seven years. After Daniel prophesied to him that would happen.
I don't misunderstand prophecy at all, and many of Daniel's prophecies are not yet ripe.
Read it. Study it.
>>712279
לא, הוא לא נביא, רק חזה.
אם הוא היה נביא אמת, מדוע הוא מדבר עם מלאכים? (י:יג) למה הוא לא אומר את המילה "הנביא" כדי לתאר את עצמו? למה הם החזיונות שלו נסתרים נביאים כדי מבוגרים, גבוהים יותר?
וגם במקרה הסביר להניח שאתה לא יכול להבין את זה, למה אתה מרגיש שאתה מסוגל לספר את ההבדלים בין הניואנסים של מילות עבריות שאתה ומועך יחד "פרופעת"?
>Do you guys believe in reincarnation? If so please elaborate as to the process involved.
A few hasidic sects believe in reincarnation called "gilgul" essentially, you reincarnate until you become a good person/fulfil all commandments
>>712075
>483 years
I think your forgetting that most the Bible uses a 360 day calendar, not a 365 day calendar. The years would be closer to 476
>>709720
>>709709
It's almost as if Jews like as a race are just incapable of being decent non-degenerate people.
>even as individuals they fuck everything up
>>713812
Don't all the so called Prophecies the New Testament asserts fall apart because of things like this.
From what I've gathered the New Testament writers were not very familiar with theology or Jewish traditions and make a lot of errors.
>>713822
With the establishment of a year with 360 days, the exact time for the revelation of King Messiah can be determined. To identify the exact time, the 360 day years have to be first reconciled with the 365.25 day solar years by which the current calendars are kept. The method for this is to obtain the total amount of days in the 69 weeks. This is done by 69x7 which totals 483 years; then multiplying this number by 360 days for each year. The total is exactly 173,880 days until the coming of King Messiah. This number equals 476 years of the current calendar. This number was obtained by dividing 173,880 by 365.25 which equals exactly 476.
Starting from the month of Nisan in 445 BC and working forward 476 years for the revelation of King Messiah would be the month of Nisan 32 AD. This is obtained by realizing that when converting from BC to AD there is no year zero. There are a total of 476 years minus the 445 BC years which leaves 31 years in AD. The 31 years plus the one for year zero the comes to Nisan 32 AD. The countdown to King Messiah which begun in Nisan 445 BC with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem by the Persian King Artaxerxes ended in Nisan 32 AD.
The Prophet Zechariah wrote that King Messiah would be revealed to Israel by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey with her colt. He would come to Jerusalem lowly with salvation. According to Daniel 9:25, this would take place during the month of Nissan 32 AD. This is the exact time according to the New Testament that Jesus of Nazareth rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and presented Himself as King Messiah to Israel . Today, His entry into Jerusalem on this day is known as Palm Sunday. The verses to show this follow:
>>713829
Zechariah 9:9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion ; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem : behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass (donkey), and upon a colt the foal of an ass.”
Matthew 21:6-9 “And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, And brought the ass (donkey), and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.”
The two comings of King Messiah can now be clearly seen. Daniel in chapters two and seven have already shown the coming of King Messiah in great glory and power to establish His kingdom over all the earth. Daniel first showed the coming of King Messiah to set up His political kingdom. Now in chapter nine, he is showing that before King Messiah comes in great glory, He will appear lowly riding upon a donkey with salvation.
King Messiah must first come with salvation from the bondage of sin. This prophecy started with the people being given 70 weeks to deal with the problem of their sin. The prophecy was given for them to focus on their sin and to realize that sin must be addressed for the coming of King Messiah who is everlasting righteousness. King Messiah came at the end of 69 weeks and addressed the bondage of sin. The Scriptures to show the two comings of King Messiah follow:
>>713830
The first coming of King Messiah:
Zechariah 9:9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion ; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem : behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.”
The second coming of King Messiah:
Daniel 7:13 “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. (14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
The prophecy of Daniel has a second aspect about the timing of King Messiah’s first coming. The prophecy shows that the Jubilee was critical to understand the coming of the Messiah. The year of Jubilee would focus the attention of the people to His coming and what it would be like under His rule.
The prophecy was for 483 years to the coming of the Messiah. The Jubilee was every 50 years. The Jubilee occurring every 50 years meant the Messiah was going to appear after the ninth Jubilee. This is calculated by dividing 483 by 50 which equals 9. After the ninth Jubilee or 450 years, the Messiah would be revealed to Israel . The 450th year is very important.
>>713831
When Jesus of Nazareth began His ministry, the Bible shows He was about 30 years old, Luke 3:23. His public ministry lasted for about three years which means He was 33 years of age at the time of His crucifixion. The prophecy was for 483 years, so if you subtract His life which was 33 years, the result is 450. This means that King Messiah was born during the ninth Jubilee year! King Messiah who was God’s Jubilee was born during a Jubilee year. He was born during a Jubilee year and then revealed at the conclusion of the 483 year prophecy. God’s timing of these events is awesome.
There is no record from the Bible or history that Israel ever kept the Jubilee. If the Jubilee had been kept, the people would have been focused on the soon appearing of their Messiah. They failed to obey the law of Moses and thus did not have the expectation of the Jubilee. It is very possible that because Israel failed to keep the Jubilee, the people’s eyes were blinded to the revelation of King Messiah. For the people to be blessed under the law, they had to keep both the seven year sabbath rest of the land and the Jubilee.
The Book of Daniel clearly shows the two comings. There is a powerful statement in the next Scripture, verse 26, which establishes the purpose of King Messiah’s ministry at His first coming. This prophecy can only be fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth. King Messiah was revealed at the end of the 69 weeks, Nisan 32 AD, just as was written by the prophet Daniel. His second coming will be fulfilled just as was written in Daniel 7:13,14.
Daniel 9:26 tells what will happen after the revelation of King Messiah at the end of the 69 weeks. The prophecy also focuses on Jerusalem and clearly gives the fate of this city. Daniel is an awesome prophet of God to write all this over 500 years in advance of the events. There is no other book like this in the Bible.
>>713833
Daniel 9:26 “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
The prophecy continues by stating that after King Messiah was revealed at the end of the 69 weeks, He would be cut off or killed. It is most important to realize that the Messiah is killed after the completion of the 69th week. Jesus of Nazareth was crucified within seven days after He was revealed to Israel . He was cut off but not for Himself just as Daniel had written.
The death of King Messiah for others ties directly in with the part of this prophecy concerning iniquity, transgression and sin. The underlining foundation of this prophecy of 70 Weeks is that sin must be dealt with. During this entire time period, the need to deal with sin has been there. Now God is showing how sin is finally going to be dealt with.
Daniel shows God's method to deal with the problem of sin. King Messiah was cut off because of the penalty of sin. This was not because of His own sin, for He is righteous, but He was cut off because of the sin of the people. The Bible is very clear that everything about King Messiah is righteous. But, He paid the price for sin that the people deserved.
The idea of King Messiah suffering at His coming can be seen in the writing of other prophets in addition to Daniel. The prophet Micah identifies King Messiah as the judge of Israel and all the nations. Then the prophet writes that the Judge of Israel shall be beaten with a rod on the face.
>>713834
Micah 4:3 “And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
Micah 5:1 “Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.”
The prophet Zechariah wrote that the man whom God referred to as His shepherd would be stricken and His followers scattered. God refers to this shepherd as “My fellow.” This person was close to God as “My fellow” indicates a term of endearment. The prophet Ezekiel shows that King Messiah is referred as God’s Shepherd (Ezekiel 37:24). The Shepherd that would be stricken is King Messiah. The verse to show God’s Shepherd was stricken follows:
Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”
The prophet Isaiah in chapter 53 ties together very clearly the suffering of King Messiah, God’s righteous Servant, for sin. King Messiah is God’s righteous Servant and this Servant is the subject of this chapter. Isaiah explains why the Messiah was cut off but not for Himself. The foundation for understanding this chapter is the Day of Atonement as it is found in Leviticus 16.
>>713836
n the Day of Atonement, the high priest of Israel performed the rituals which temporarily cleansed the people of their iniquities, transgressions and sins. This was temporary because it had to be performed every year. The high priest would slay a bullock and goat and then bring the blood of these animals into the holy place of the temple. He would then sprinkle the blood on the Ark of the Covenant. He would also place His hands on the head of a live goat. He would then confess all the iniquities, transgressions and sins of the nation over this goat, and the goat would then be taken into the desert to die.
The picture created by the Day of Atonement was an innocent animal had to die in place of a person who sinned. A person could not pay the price for their sin, but the innocent animal’s death could. A vicarious death was needed for sin. The Day of Atonement resulted in the person being clean of sin before the holy God of Israel. But this innocent death was essential for the people to be clean before the LORD God of Israel .
>>713837
Leviticus 16:30 “For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.”
The prophet Isaiah shows that the Day of Atonement was a picture of how King Messiah’s death would be the final atonement for sin. He paid the permanent penalty of death for sin. His death would make clean or justify those that would believe on Him.
Isaiah 53:11 “He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”
The way He would justify the people was by taking upon Himself the punishment for sin, the punishment that was due the people. He would be made sin for them. He took all the punishment for iniquity.
Isaiah 53:4 “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Isaiah said that King Messiah would be cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of the people. He was not killed for something He did, but His death was necessary because of the sin of the people. The prophet Daniel uses this very language. King Messiah was cut off after the 69th week but not for Himself. Isaiah tells why King Messiah was cut off, and Daniel tells the time period of His death.
>>713838
Daniel 9:26 “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:...”
Isaiah 53:8 “...for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”
Isaiah actually states that King Messiah’s soul was made an offering for sin just as the animals were made an offering for sin on the Day of Atonement. The death of God’s righteous Servant would please the LORD because He would bear the sin of the people. King Messiah’s death would reconcile the holy God of Israel with His people.
Isaiah 53:10 “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,... (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) ...he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
According to Daniel, in early 30 AD, King Messiah would be cut off but not for Himself. Isaiah reported this death would be vicarious for the sins of the people. There is only one person in all of history who fits this ministry of King Messiah and that is Jesus of Nazareth. He was God’s righteous Servant who died for the sins of mankind. Because of His sacrificial death, sinful man can be reconciled to the holy God of Israel. He became the fulfillment of Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53. The New Testament shows this is exactly what the Lord Jesus’ accomplished.
>>713839
2 Corinthians 5:21 “For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
Just as Isaiah wrote, when Jesus of Nazareth died He bore the sins of mankind in His body. By His death for sin, we are made clean or righteous before God. King Messiah’s death was God’s master plan to reconcile man to Himself.
1 Peter 2:24 “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”
On the Day of Atonement, blood was required to pay the price or atone for sin. It was blood that made an atonement for the soul. It was the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ which made the final atonement for sin. Mankind has the ability to be made clean from sin by His death and shed blood.
Revelation 1:5 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”
Daniel gives the exact time that King Messiah would be cut off and shed His blood, not for Himself, but for His people and all of mankind. The Prophet gives the exact time frame for the first coming of King Messiah to deal with the problem of man’s sin. Daniel chapters two and seven show the coming of King Messiah to crush the nations of the world and establish His kingdom. Daniel chapter nine gives the exact time of King Messiah’s first coming to confront the issue of man’s sin. And as Scriptures show, sin must be dealt with before His kingdom can be established.
>>713840
Daniel 9:26 “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks deals with three major issues. It deals with sin, the coming of the Messiah and the city of Jerusalem . The prophecy ends with the future of Jerusalem and the second coming of King Messiah to establish His kingdom.
The prophecy starts with the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem , and we know the city is once again going to be destroyed. A people are coming to destroy Jerusalem and the temple just as the Babylonians did in 586 BC. This verse shows that the destruction of the city is going to be after the 69th week but does not state it will be during the 70th week.
The destruction of Jerusalem is reported to be after the 69th week just as the death of the Messiah is also placed after the 483 years are complete. There is a reason for this because the 70th week does not begin immediately after the 69th week. The 483 years ended with the revelation of King Messiah which completed this part of the prophecy. The 70th Week or the seven remaining years will begin at a future date. The death of the Messiah and the destruction of the temple occur in the time interval between the 69th and 70th week. When Daniel 9:26 and 27 are reconciled in the next chapter, the interval between the 69th and 70th week is very clear.
>>713841
Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD by the Roman army. The Babylonians committed the first desolation of Jerusalem in 586 BC. There was a 657 year interval between the two desolations. Jerusalem was never again the capital of Israel until 1967. From 70 AD until the present time, Israel has been without a temple and priesthood.
Daniel wrote that there would be wars involving Jerusalem until the end. The end would be like a flood and from the Jewish perspective the city would be desolate. The city was destroyed by the Romans, and for 1900 years Jerusalem was under Gentile control. Jerusalem lost its luster and although never abandoned, it was a wasteland for centuries--exactly as the prophecy in Daniel 9:26 revealed.
This verse states that the city would be subject to war and desolation until the end. Daniel has already written that the end to this will come when King Messiah crushes the Gentile nations and establishes His kingdom over all the earth. The end will come when the “Stone cut out without hands” crushes the kingdoms of the nations (Daniel 2:34). The end will come when the Son of man comes with the “Clouds of heaven” and establishes His kingdom on earth (Daniel 7:13,14).
The Prophet Zechariah shows the final war will be over Jerusalem . The nations of the world will gather their armies in one last attempt to destroy the city. This city will be the focus of the entire world! The nations gathering in one last attempt to destroy Jerusalem will trigger what the prophets describe as the Day of the LORD. This phrase is used by the prophets for the time when the God of Israel will judge the nations and King Messiah will rule from Jerusalem .
>>713842
This final battle will result in the near total desolation of Jerusalem . Just as Daniel wrote, Jerusalem would be subjected to war and desolation right to the end. Daniel wrote the coming of King Messiah would crush the nations that are in rebellion against the God of Israel. Zechariah adds great detail to the destruction of the nations and the second coming of the Lord Jesus:
Zechariah 14:1 “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. (2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”
Daniel writes about King Messiah coming with the “Clouds of heaven” to establish His kingdom. Zechariah writes that the Messiah will stand on the Mount of Olives which is just east of Jerusalem . King Messiah coming is referred to by Zechariah as, “The LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.” (Zechariah 14:5). Both of the prophets write about the supernatural awesome coming of King Messiah. Daniel describes Him coming with the “Clouds of heaven” while Zechariah sees Him coming with the “saints.”
>>713843
Zechariah 14:4 “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley...(5) ...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”
It is the very presence of the Lord Jesus’ second coming which stops the desolation of Jerusalem and smashes the nations of the world gathered together in one last attempt to destroy the city of David . Daniel describes King Messiah’s coming as a great mountain smashing the rebellious nations of the world. Zechariah reports of the affects of this judgment on the nations. He describes the judgment of the people trying to destroy Jerusalem similar to the effect of a neutron bomb.
Zechariah 14:12 “And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.”
Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”
All this "muh 70 weeks" is moot anyway because Daniel is from the 2nd century BC, not the 5th.
>>713847
King Nebuchadnezzar II reigned from c. 634 – 562 BC, just because some people in the 2nd century BC tacked on some shit doesn't change that Daniel lived in 500 years before Christ
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>>713829
I really don't care what the Christian perspective is. I already know you guys think the New Testament fufills every prophecy to the letter. I want to know other groups onion, I'm a neutral party trying to see how various theological groups approach each other.
>>709642
What are jewish aesthetics like?
Like Christianity has lofty cathedrals, stained glass windows of saints, stuff like that. Islam due to not being allowed to draw living things has great calligraphy and interesting and colourful geometric designs.
>>714018
Just do a Google image search for synagogue.
Jews are iconoclasts too.
>>714018
I'd say it depends on the synagogue. Usually there is more focus on the design of the ark (Where their Torah scroll is kept). Pic related.
