Hello /his/, in light of all the Holocaust denialism; why not formulate an opinion over the Nuremberg trials and WW2 in General?
I believe it is presentable that the Nazis were unjustly tried by a court where they were allowed no evidence, and accused of multiple things they did not do as proven by later exoneration.
There are two specific articles that are important to the trials, article 19
Article 19 states:
>The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value.
This is apparent as it is stating any evidence can be submitted as long as it helps /prove/ what the Nazis did, not that it is confirmed or valid.
The next questioned is Article 21, lets look at it.
Article 21 states:
>The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.
This "common knowledge" provision has been used a few times recently in courts, but for this preceding it was use as "the holocaust" was common knowledge, so the Nazis could not even argue weather or not they had done their committed crimes. Nor allowed to submit evidence in opposition to what they are accused of, much less go and gather it.
Later, the Nazis were exonerated for their crimes accused at Kayan, where the Russians brutally murdered 22,000-30,000 polish officials and intelligentsia. Even during the war Hitler called in the Red Cross to record the event as a Russian massacre, and it was, and they were not allowed to submit it in court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Rather punish the people in charge, than the people with massive debt, it had strategic value to end Nazism once and for all
>>44195
So you don't care if it was just or a proper court hearing or proper trial, you just care if "Nazism is ended once and for all"?
Because I don't think it holds up that "Nazism is stamped out", many far right or alt right parties grow larger by the minute, and the alt right has been the biggest threat to the establishment recently.
The next thing that we could talk about is the Night of the Long knives
Here is a copy pasta written long ago:
The Night of the Long Knives has been severely distorted by mainstream history. Yes it was a political purge, but it was only ever meant to be two men: Ernst Rohm, and Franz von Papen. Also Stalin's political purges numbered close to a million, whilst Hitler's came to a meager 81 (80 of which he did not order to be killed)
When Hitler came to power in 1933, the SA was rendered largely superflous, as they had assisted his rise to power tremendously, however there were more and more incidents where they were behaving like hooligans.
Now that they were the majority, some of them were breaking Hitler's rules, instigating political fights, and smashing the shops windows of Jewish businesses (there are records of Hitler reprimanding SA for doing this in the 20s, but in the 30s they had grown to a quantity he could not control.)
Hitler had control of the SS, as Himmler was firmly on his side. Ersnt Rohm however did begin to frequently disagree with Hitler, and started causing friction within the SA and SS. Hitler's intelligence agency, the Abwehr, tapped Ernst Rohm amid fears he was planning a putsch.
The wiretaps revealed that he had met with a French diplomat, and was helping to organise a putsch with the help of the French army. The NSDAP responded by planning to ambush Rohm and arrest him without the SA knowing and a full blown putsch beginning.
If Ernst had managed to order the SA against Hitler, it would have been a bloody civil war between Germans on the streets. This was something Hitler could not afford at any costs if he was to have the peace and stability he desperately desired.
Whilst Hitler and Goering were in Essen for a wedding (amidst planning how to deal with Rohm) they were informed that Rohm had placed the SA on alert, and summoned all SA commanders to meet him at Wiessee.
>>44336
Franz Von Papen began denouncing the NSDAP publicly in a speech given at Marburg, speaking about them with hostility. On June 21 Hindenburg instructed Hitler to 'bring the trouble makers finally to reason'.
From Gobells' diary: ‘Drawing blood,’ recorded Goebbels with approval. ‘Got to realise that
mutiny costs them their neck. I agree with this. If do it you must, then ruthlessly. Proofs that Röhm was conspiring with François-Poncet, Schleicher, and Strasser. So, action!’ he added, in this previously unpublished
diary. ‘After reaching his decision, the Führer is very calm. We while away the hours in discussions. Nobody must notice a thing. Talk with Lutze, the new [SA] chief of staff. He’s very good.’
Hitler took off soon after two a.m. on June 30 for Munich. Army officers were waiting on the airfield to greet him. He tore the insignia from the two bemused local SA commanders, August Schneidhuber and Wilhelm Schmid,
and packed them off to Stadelheim prison, where they were joined later by a bus-load of other SA worthies. After a brief call on the local ministry of the interior his party set out for Bad Wiessee at five-thirty a.m., riding in three open Mercedes limousines, with Hitler, Lutze, and Hess in the first, detectives in the second, and Goebbels in the third. Not without personal risk, Hitler himself rooted Röhm, Edmund Heines, and his other henchman out of their rooms at the Wiessee lakefront hotel. Goebbels described in his diary, ‘The Chief was brilliant.'
>>44336
>>44355
Of great interest is the record of Hitler’s utterances filed that day by the headquarters of General Adam, commanding the local Army District: All the SA commanders are now under lock and key except Gruppenführer Ernst. I [Hitler] was aware of his [Röhm’s] weaknesses, but I hoped for a long time to be able to channel this affair along the right lines. It’s all over now. It’s been infinitely hard for me to part from comrades who have fought in this struggle of ours for years on end. These people would have ruined the entire SA. I had to put a stop to it some time.
The scenes during our swoop on Wiessee were scandalous and shameful– more disgusting than I would ever have thought possible. Now I have laid down a clear line: the army is the only bearer of arms. Every man, whether SA or not, is in future at the army’s disposal. Any man at whom the Wehrmacht crooks its finger, belongs to it. I have maximum faith in the Wehrmacht and the Reich war minister. A line has had to be drawn. You can rest assured that I shall now establish order.
Ernst was to be the only one offered a pistol to shoot himself, and was the only man Hitler ordereed to kill outright. This tore Hitler up ass he still considered Rohm a friend and was thankful for his previous
>>44304
It's what the allies thought was best
By putting them to trial instead of simply executing them you can prevent them from becoming martyrs
>>44336
>>44355
>>44367
help
Much had in fact happened that unsettled Hitler. Göring had wantonly liquidated Gregor Strasser, Hitler’s rival, and there had been a rash of killings in Bavaria. Hitler learned that somebody had killed his old friend Pastor Bernhard Stempfle, an almost daily acquaintance of earlier years, who had helped edit the turgid pages of Mein Kampf for publication. Hitler’s adjutant Brückner later described in private papers how Hitler vented his annoyance on Himmler when the Reichsführer SS appeared at the chancellery with a final list of the victims – eighty-two all told. In later months Viktor Lutze told anybody who would listen that the Führer had originally listed only seven men; he had offered Röhm suicide, and when Röhm declined this ‘offer’ Hitler had had him shot too.* Hitler’s seven had become seventeen, and then eighty-two. ‘The Führer was thus put in the embarrassing position of having to sanction all eighty-two killings afterward,’ complained Lutze. Lutze put the blame squarely on Himmler and Göring. Over lunch on July 1 Dr. Goebbels found Hitler pale and bitter. ‘Göring tenders his report,’ he wrote. ‘Executions almost over. A few still needed. It’s tough but necessary. Ernst, Strasser, Senle [Stempfle], Detten ?. One final sweep and we’re through the worst. For twenty years there must be peace.’ He whiled away the afternoon hours with Hitler. ‘I cannot leave him on his own,’ reported Goebbels, no doubt pleased to be in this sanctuary. ‘He’s suffering badly, but hanging tough. The death sentences are pronounced with the utmost gravity. Around sixty all told.’ Under pressure from others, Hitler that day yielded and ordered Röhm’s name added to the death list. ‘Twice Röhm is left alone for twenty minutes with a pistol,’ recorded Goebbels in his dramatic diary of these events. ‘He doesn’t use it and is then shot.
>>44389
But it wasn't a trial was it?
It was nothing more than a kangaroo court?
or do you have something to say otherwise?
>>44336
>>44355
>>44367
>>44394
With that, it’s all over.’ Sepp Dietrich called in to report, ‘a bit white about the gills,’ as Goebbels described, adding: ‘We’re not cut out to be executioners.’
In an act of rare magnanimity Hitler ordered state pensions provided for the next of kin of the people murdered in the Night of the Long Knives, as June 30th, 1934 came to be known. Even so he began to suffer nightmares and could not sleep. His medical records reveal that stomach ailments began to plague him from this episode on; but the long-term benefits seemed worth it – he had purchased the undivided loyalty of the Reichswehr generals – formed a ‘blood brotherhood,’ one might say. On July 3rd Blomberg as war minister thanked him on behalf of the assembled Cabinet. The Cabinet retrospectively legalised most of the killings as ‘acts of state emergency.’ ‘One can now see clearly again,’ wrote Goebbels. ‘Events came dramatically to a head. The Reich was on the edge of an abyss. The Führer saved it.’ Over the next days however it dawned on Hitler that many of his henchmen had taken things into their own hands. After a visit by Hitler to his lakeside cottage, Goebbels recorded cryptically: ‘He now sees things quite clearly. Lutze has become suspicious too.’ Hitler had belatedly deduced the extent to which Göring, Himmler, and the armed forces had manipulated him.
After the Cabinet meeting, Hitler flew to East Prussia and reported to the fast-fading president. Hindenburg was sympathetic. ‘My dear Chancellor,’ he whispered, ‘those who make history must be able to shed blood. . .’
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hitler/2001/HW_Web_dl.pdf p24-32.
>>44432
I'm just saying it's one of the reasons the allies did it
>>44482
Hmm, I guess that's so, but it doesn't make sense why they would leave it so wide open.
Another point to talk about is the bombing of Dresden.
Here is an account from a zookeeper...
WARNING: What I am about to post is fucking horrible, dont read this if you are upset easily.
The following is the account of Otto Sailer-Jackson, a 60 year old animal trainer turned Dresden Zoo inspector. Otto loved animals and described the moments following the raid as the most heart breaking thing he had ever had to do, and it haunted him:
'We did what we had to do, but it broke my heart. I collapsed physically and emotionally. Everything that happened after that, happened as if behind a veil. I was burnt out inside. I acted mechanically, as if I had no room for pain in my heart'
'The elephants gave spine-chilling screams, their house was still standing but an explosive bomb of terrific force landed behind it, lifted the dome of the house, turned it around, and put it back on again. The heavy iron doors had been completely bent, and the huge iron sliding doors which shut off the house form the terraces, had been completely lifted from its hinges. When I and some of the other men, including the elephant, warden Galle, managed to break into the elephant house, we found the stable empty.
For a moment we stood there helpless, but then the elephants told us where they were by their heart-breaking trumpeting. We rushed out onto the terrace again. The baby cow elephant was lying in the narrow barrier-moat on her back, her legs up to the sky. She had suffered severe stomach injuries and could not move.
>>44557
A 90 cwt cow elephant had been flung clear across the barrier moat and fence by some terrific blast wave, and just stood there trembling. We had no choice but to leave these animals to their fate for the moment.'
'….In the same building as the hippos was the humanoid ape house. This also had been destroyed. Not a single ape could be seen, except for the gibbon, who crept out from under a corner. The creature held out it's hands to Sailer-Jackson, who saw that it had no hands, merely stumps. Haunted by the expression of suffering on it's face, he drew his pistol and shot the beast'
Old warden Lehmann went into the bear house while the flames roared up from it's roof. His favourite brown bear mother, who had two cubs, was still there, had been blinded by incendiary bombs. But she knew Lehmann's voice and let him to remove the cubs to safety…The female polar bear was there too, dreafully burned on the back by the thermite (or phosphorus) but covering and protecting her two cubs. Without making a sound, the mother kept the cubs pinned down with her huge paws so they could not run away and out into danger in the open. It would be a brave man who tried to take them away from her, but the old grey haired warden managed it. As the mother was in terrible agony she was dispatched with a pistol shot. Her cubs could have been reared from the bottle, but there was no milk in the ruins of Dresden, they soon died of hunger.'
The Devil's Tinderbox: Dresden, 1945, Alexander McKee (2000)
