why did Poland fail in 1939?
Being polish
Also not bothering to update their military when the Germans were jerking off to bf109s
>>593460
Trying to be Switzerland without the Alps and with two growing military powers on either side.
France and UK promised them to attack Germany from the west, so Poland went ahead and refused to hand Dazing over.
France and UK didn't attack Germany from the west, said Poland misunderstood them.
Poland fall.
![fred_durst[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/acL2SNZ.jpg "fred_durst[1].jpg")
>be poland
>get slapped every couple decades
>other nations get to develop infrastructure while I have to start over constantly
I keep Poland poland poland poland
If the soviets had not invaded Poland from the east then Poland would not have collapsed in a month, they would have employed defense in depth and bogged down Germany forces giving the British and French time to prepare the invasion of Germany
1. Choosing Great Britain and France as its allies. They did it again after 1939 not anticipating another fucking betrayal. You either have a spine or not. They should've been more careful with Hitler. Agree with some of his demands. Defeating the Soviet Union was more important to Poland's well-being.
2. Being fucking attacked from all 4 sides by two of the most powerful military forces in Europe. Mistakes made but the Chief of Staff and lack of proper communication between the armies. Still they fought some hardcore battles and Germans had to postpone their French campaign.
3. Believing that the Soviets would just stay home. Having Soviet spies in your government didn't help.
4. UK and France ignoring Poland's advice to take some action when Hitler was violating the Paris agreements. Twice.
>>593646
>I keep Poland poland poland poland
>>593699
Good points.
Overall they had to make a choice, and if the Poles helped in the defeat of the USSR, they would be in a much better position to diplomatically negotiate, with Western Allied backing, than vice-versa.
In the end, they made all the wrong choices that eventually led to them being occupied for decades by the Soviets.
>Germany is partitioning Czechoslovakia? Poland is a friend of Germany and wants a piece!
>What do you mean Germany and USSR are gonna to partition Poland again? What an horrible injustice it is!
They get that they asked for by being smartasses between two superpowers, instead of submitting to one of them.
>>593751
It's not how it went. It wasn't a deal that Poland made with Germany or anything. That's why it was only a tiny speck of land. It was a matter of Polish-Czechoslovakian relationship. It was a difficult matter too. The region of Zaolzie had a mixed population. In 1919 or so when Poland was busy fighting with Bolsheviks, Czech colonel Josef Snajderek started an unauthorized action. Murdered a bunch of civillians and POWs. Took the land for Czechoslovakia. Similar thing happened in 1945. The two countries almost went to war over it.
>>593761
>The region of Zaolzie had a mixed population.
Danzig at the time was almost exclusively German, barring the Polish forces occupying it, in violation of the League of Nations.
Didn't seem to stop them.
>>593460
They wanted to fuck their only friend in this world - Germany.
pic related.
>>593771
Danzig (we can call it that when talking about 1920s and 1930s was mostly German but it was also a free city. Poland had one enclave which included the post office and armory (the place of the first battle of WWII). All official and recognized. Stop trying so hard.
>>593761
>It was a matter of Polish-Czechoslovakian relationship. It was a difficult matter too
Eastern Poland, later annexed by USSR, was mostly Ukrainian and Belorussian, and Poland controlled that land since 1920 only, because they won Russian-Polish war. Bunch of civilians and POWs were killed, and Ukrainians/Belorussians were considered second class citizens needed to be polonized. So it was a difficult matter too.
My point is, Poland has no moral high ground in the situation - ofc they were victims, but they were given a taste of their own medicine.
>>593789
Well the plan was like this. First Hitler attacks France and Poland watches his back or something. Then they attack Soviet Union. Without Poland Hitler allied himself with Stalin to neutralize Poland and then attacked France.
Basically he wanted his east border secured. France was supposed to go first before lebensraum in the east.
>>593801
Thank God they got this land back (it was Polish since the Commonwealth). Those who stayed in the USSR were killed during the 1937-38 Polish operation of the NKVD. Polish policy towards minorities varied depending on the current government. First there was supposed to be a federation of independent states. Poland, Ukraina, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia and perhaps even an independent Lemko country.
cavalry charge failed against panzers
>>593806
France declared war on Germany.
>>593832
That's a meme. Only a very small part of the German military was actually motorized. It was mainly a cavalry-war on the German side as well.
>>593834
I don't know, man. Seemed a bit phony to me.
>>593795
What the hell do you think I was talking about when I said the 'League of Nations' exactly?
Of course I was referring to its Free City status, which Poland definitely violated, and no they didn't just have a post office and an armory, it was used for access to the sea, to set up air defenses, and then some.
You also ignored the part where the city was still mostly German, while Poles took full advantage of a region in Czechoslovakia that was ethnically split to advance their own hypocritical imperialism.
>>593846
Please keep in mind that Hitler on day 3 of the invasion of Poland, Hitler offered GB, in order to avoid a bigger conflict, not only to retreat but to pay for the damage in Poland.
Hitler, at this point of history, wasn't the bad guy. That was later, when he became more powerful and absolutely insane.
>>593891
Another anon here...
Wasn't that peace agreement basically that they withdraw except from the Corridoor?
>>593872
Poland established a city nearby as their port in the place of the old fishing village.
In 1925 the Council of the League of Nations allowed Poland to keep 88 soldiers on Westerplatte, which the Poles had secretly increased to 176 men and six officers by September 1939. They were armed with one 75 mm gun, two 37 mm Bofors antitank guns, four mortars and a number of medium machine guns. There were no heavy fortifications, but several reinforced buildings and guardhouses equipped with heavy weapons hidden in the peninsula's forest.
As for the Free City.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerplatte#The_transit_depot
>"The Polish garrison was separated from Free City of Danzig (Gdańsk) by the harbor channel, with only a narrow isthmus connecting the area to the mainland. In case of war, the defenders were supposed to withstand a sustained attack for 12 hours after which a relief from the main units of the Polish Army were to arrive."
>>593891
>Hitler offered GB, in order to avoid a bigger conflict, not only to retreat but to pay for the damage in Poland.
doubt.jpg
>>593891
> Please keep in mind that Hitler on day 3 of the invasion of Poland, Hitler offered GB, in order to avoid a bigger conflict, not only to retreat but to pay for the damage in Poland.
This is bullshit, do you have any source on that?
He surely did postponed the invasion for 2-3 days after UK one again declared they will go to war to protect Polish independence, but then he decided fuck it and invaded Poland with full understanding he's starting war with UK and France.
>>593912
Yes, I'm aware of Gdynia and its purpose, which happened after a strike in Danzig/Gdansk.
The point I am making is that the Poles themselves came from the position of arguing that Germany honor its agreement with the Treaty of Versailles, while it was skirting or cheating its own agreement.
They also shot down German aircraft that went into the city, for sketchy reasons.
Likewise, my point about Danzig's ethnic make up versus what the Poles did with Zaolzie still stands.
>>593926
The Treaty of Versailles officially described the status of Danzig. It was still treated as a traditional Polish city even if at that moment it was predominantly German. It doesn't matter wither way because the situation was clear. A free city with some Polish enclaves.
The same can't be said about Silesia, Zaolzie, Masuria and the Polish eastern border. With so many new countries there could be no clear nation states which resulted in border conflicts, wars and uprisings.
In Zaolzie there were around 150k Polish (native) citizens. Many of them were later re-settled.
>>593958
Like I said, Danzig's 'Free City' status in the Treaty of Versailles was itself being encroached upon by the Poles, who did more than just establish an armory or post office there.
The treaty itself was already more than favorable to the Poles, the fact these other points are added on top certainly makes the Polish position look dubious, and hypocritical.
>>593761
More like: contested region between PL and CZ after WW1, Poland moves troops into the region
both sides agree to divide it but no elections or military draft were to take place there until further agreements are reached
suddenly, Poland decides to hold elections and enact local draft
Poles ignore Czechoslovak protests
Czechoslovak government responds with military action - entirely sanctioned and authorized, what is this Snajderek nonsense
CZ side wins but pressure from Entente powers leads to a ceasefire and redrawing of borders
>>593978
>And, when he finally moved on to the subject, the oratory was, unsurprisingly, full of untruths.
>>593984
>And, when he finally moved on to the subject, the oratory was, unsurprisingly, full of untruths.
>>593982
>judged by an American newspaper
Oh, quelle surprise.
>>593771
the ethnic makeup is utterly irrelevant idk why people bring it up. or do you think areas of the USA with a majority ethnic german makeup belong to germany?
>>593978
>yes, lets trust the man who has violated every treaty he has ever signed and allied himself with the Soviet Union
ludicrous, just like you
>>593994
Tell that to the other anon who included it in his reasoning, because it included Poles and therefore was fair game.
Also literally nobody is making your latter shitty claim.
>>593994
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
The historically German population of Danzig voted to be part of the German empire.
>>593699
This post says most if it
>>593834
And so what? How did this change anything?
>>593977
I understand that Czechs desperately need some founding myth but not at Poland's expense
>>593789
Underrated post
>>594008
You're right, that's not the same thing. I'm pretty convinced it's not made up though. Until then, you may mark my comment as invalid. Sadly, these gems are well kept secrets.
>>593978
> on day 3 of the invasion of Poland, Hitler offered GB, in order to avoid a bigger conflict, not only to retreat but to pay for the damage in Poland
> Oct. 6
> ask the world for peace
So after more than a month from the beginning of the war, two weeks after Soviets invaded Poland from the east, after capture of Warsaw, Hitler asked UK for peace? What a peaceful gesture indeed! Also no mention of retreat or repayments. Stormfags can't even read.
>>594063
lel
You ask the question as if no such peace offers happened prior to the invasion of Poland.
Looks like the illiteracy is on your end.
>>594068
>"Danzig or war"
>peace offer
>>594094
>ignoring 77,000 prisoned in concentration camps
>>593695
>If the soviets had not invaded Poland from the east then Poland would not have collapsed in a month, they would have employed defense in depth and bogged down Germany forces giving the British and French time to prepare the invasion of Germany
Things that would never happen.
Polish Army was already encircled in pockets after 7-10th of September.
>>593699
>1. Choosing Great Britain and France as its allies. They did it again after 1939 not anticipating another fucking betrayal. You either have a spine or not. They should've been more careful with Hitler. Agree with some of his demands. Defeating the Soviet Union was more important to Poland's well-being.
Allying with Hitler by appeasing him was a road to nowhere in 1939 perspective
Reminder that Czechoslovakia tried the same in 1938. Sudetland was supposed to be the last territorial claim Hitler had. Then in 1939 Danzig was supposed to be another last territorial claim Hitler had.
Would you believe him? I wouldn't.
OP - several factors.
Mobilisation started too late, military was badly organised(have cavalry functioned independently and they may have been able to apply some elastic defence strategy which would give them more room to breathe and possibility to retreat), outnumbered, western Allies were in no state to start blitz through Siegfried line and so on and so on.
>>594134
>Reminder that Czechoslovakia tried the same in 1938.
Wait, are you implying that Czechoslovakia tried appeasing/allying with Hitler? Or that they tried the same as Poland, that is choosing Brits and French as their allies?
>>594134
>western Allies were in no state to start blitz through Siegfried line
actually - and with the benefit of hindisght, they were, despite all the drawbacks of the allied force at the time, a completely minuscule force was left in the west of germany at the time
unfortunately for poland allied plans did not really envision an invasion of germany but rather meeting them on their own terms
Cos poles are Slavs and love drinking wodka
>>594156
Something in between.
The Munich verdict was that Czechoslovakia should give the Sudet area. Which was a policy of Appeasement from German side.
Now you have to consider the fact that Czechoslovakia had elaborate border fortifications along with well-motorised and generally modern army(we're talking about the biggest inter-war arms exporter).
Now the military claimed that they can wage a war and possibly keep Germans at bay for several months. Whether the claim was true or not, I won't judge but there was an option for Czechoslovak government to say NO, even at this point.
They've chosen to believe Hitler that it's the last thing he asked for.
>>594168
The problem with it is that by sitting on their ass western allies had time to for example properly mobilise. If they'd push for offensive, they would get, where exactly? Let's say they'd get huge chunk of western Germany by the time Poland has fallen. Wow, great. Now the unprepared, worn out French and maybe some british armies have to fight with army that unlike them, doesn't have to deal with relatively long supply lines and unfriendly locals.
If Germans would redirect some troops from Poland to defend Germany better, the campaign in Poland would take few weeks or more, sure but allied gains would be lesser as well.
Basically it was lose-lose situation.
>>594191
>t from German side.
from allied side*
>>594191
>elaborate border fortifications
this is a bit of a meme, they were far from finished and the entire czechoslovak doctrine relied on allied intervention and help - something they were explicitly told they would not get
>the military claimed that they can wage a war and possibly keep Germans at bay for several months
no, the general staff fully expected to lose the contested borderlands - the ones with the fortifications - and a withdrawal east towards slovakia, waiting for the aforementioned allied help
>>594216
You don't get my point.
You asked whether Czechoslovakia used appeasement policy in their contacts with Germany and yes, they did, somewhat. Maybe to put it differently - the Allies and Czechoslovaks did.
I'm not claiming they were cowards or anything for doing so, I'm saying that they've believed habitual liar, which was something Polish politicians observed carefully and which likely influenced their response to German claims to Danzing.
>>594235
im not that other anon im just taking about the forts
>>594235
>which was something Polish politicians observed carefully and which likely influenced their response to German claims to Danzing.
Right, because the Poles themselves didn't steal land from others, like they did with the Ukrainians, Lithuanians, and the Czechs.
Such victims.
>>594280
What does it have to do with the fact that they simply couldn't trust Hitler?
>>594286
>complain when its done to you
>after you spent 2 decades doing it to others
I'll take projection for $500.
>>594300
I never complained about it.
If your ability to go through reply chain is impaired here's TL;DR
>anon claims that Poland should have accepted German demands in 1939
>my point is that they may have done it, but due to Czechoslovakia doing the same and being annexed anyway, it was considered as silly move
Later on we've engage why Czechoslovakia gave back Sudets and what else could they do which is barely relevant to the point.
What you are arguing with anon? Would you, if you'd be a politician appease Hitler believing he won't have any further demands after he had his last territorial demands during annexation of Austria and his last territorial demands when demanding Sudetenland and his last territorial demands when annexing/partitioning what remained of Czechoslovakia and his last territorial demands to Memel?
Would you trust him anon? Be honest.
That's why they didn't trust him.
>>594319
>Later on we've engaged
in discussion *
>>594319
Well... the 'you' was less first person, or me saying you directly, but that is besides my point.
I think what I am arguing with is patently clear, if its not to you then you haven't adequately understood my point, which I made clear to you more than once already.
You either do or you don't, very simple.
>>594333
>patently
blatantly*
>>593460
> why did Poland fail in 1939?
1) Fucked up government: instead of improving their military they preferred to play populist politics and get bribed by the rich.
2) Fucked up government: they were not permitted to associate with Commies, so they had to rely on Western allies, who had no intentions of actually helping them in the first place.
3) Fucked up government: when shit hit the fan, they chose to run away to Romania and pretend nothing has happened, rather than to sign peace treaty with Hitler and cede Western Poland to him, keeping Eastern (yes, they had about a week after defeat, before Soviets made their move).
>>593695
Except most of Polish troops were defeated long before Soviets made their move.
>>594280
From who? All these countries achieved independence right after WWI and borders weren't set in stone. The only way we should judge post-WWI border conflicts is by their methods. The Czech were probably the worst unfortunately.
>>594352
>1) Fucked up government: instead of improving their military they preferred to play populist politics and get bribed by the rich.
I'm curious about this... as its my understanding the Polish government wasn't too popular with its people at the time, the populist groups were more right wing and in opposition to the military junta.
>>594357
The plan was to keep retreating so this part of the plan worked. The problem was lack of communication.
>>594358
>From who?
>examples are listed
>>594370
Right. Like Austria-Hungary or Russian Empire.
>>594373
What about those former empires?
>>594363
> The plan was to keep retreating so this part of the plan worked.
The plan changed to retreat when most Polish troops got overrun and surrounded.
By the 8th September Germans had literally reached Warsaw. By the 13th - Lviv (that's Western Ukraine nowadays). That's Blitzkrieg for you.
If you actually think that by 17th September (when Soviets made their move) Poland had any chance, please give a full explanation on how the hell it could've been achieved and what troops could be used. Because most of their army (already inferior to German) had literally collapsed by this point.
> The problem was lack of communication.
Yeah. Government could not be reached by Polish troops nor by foreign governments: both Germans and Soviets had made multiple attempts, until Germans simply declared Poland (as a state) non-existent, since it no longer had a functioning government (the one that could be contacted - as per Montevideo Convention of 1933).
Soviets moved in only when Polish ambassador admitted that he is no longer in contact with the government and has no idea where the government is, or when will it reply.
So - yeah. Lack of communications. Except not with the army.
>remembering back before poland was a world joke
>mfw
the one and only hope for Poland was France&UK not pussying out and putting down germany before it got out of hand, no other way
>>593460
Poland was in no position to win. Too rural and poor to stand on its own.
Option 1: Ally with UK/France - we all know how it ended.
Option 2: Ally with the USSR. Not really possible since both sides really hated each other since 1920. Polish preferred to be dead then red and the Soviets top officials and the Red Army was still embarrassed after last war. But even if the alliance was formed - the Poland would still be roflstomped by the Germans and then annexed by the Germany or Russia, depending on the outcome.
Option 3: Ally with Germany. I still find it funny that people fell the "Hitler wanted to be friends with the Poland" meme. These public speeches were for temporary political gains and there were no truth behind them, Because allying with untermensch that are only good to be servants or be eradicated was totally the Hitlers intention, right? Polish would be probably made second class citizens, at the best. Only to be conquered by the Soviets.
With Poland you loose.
>>594575
WW1 Destroyed their Fighting Spirits
They were Declining Powers after that who were dealing with Their Colonies demanding Independence/Autonomy/Equal Power in the Empire
They made the mistake of Thinking that Eastern Europe was a part of their sphere of Influence
>>594693
http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9781409406259
76% of respondents asked by the Gallup in the UK was in favor of military action to upkeep neutrality of Gdansk.
In France according to the http://www.amazon.com/1945-The-That-Never-Ended/dp/0300109806 also 76% respondents were in favor of the war (17% against, 7% abstained).
So Anon, pls don't diminish the power of mutual hate - if only French or British governments took any offensive actions, the public opinion in each of the countries would be overwhelmingly positive.
>>593801
>Eastern Poland, later annexed by USSR, was mostly Ukrainian and Belorussian,
Look at the map once again. The Belarussian and Ukrainian lands are mostly 1) Prypyat Marshes and 2) Carpathian Mountains, i.e. sparsely populated areas.
>>594134
>Polish Army was already encircled in pockets after 7-10th of September.
Nope, it wasnt. 8-9 september were actually days of crisis for the Germans
>pincer manouver west of Vistula failed
>beaten back from Warsaw
>Polish counteroffensive on the Bzura commenced.
>>593695
The Soviets didn't attack until September 17th, at which point resistance outside of the urban centers in Warsaw and Lodz had effectively collapsed.
>>596071
Nope, it didn't. That was the official propaganda of the USSR during the Cold War period to justify their invasion .
At that time Poland in fact had a front-line to speak of restored with two army-level grouping (the "Northern Front" and "Southern Front") conducting a fighting retreat. Behind their backs, Poland was organizing a long-resistance redoubt, the "Romanian bridgehead" where, as it was hoped, resistance could be offered until spring of 1940.
>>596087
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Poland1939_GermanPlanMap.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Poland2.jpg
>>593832
Polish lancers didn't actually charge German tanks.
The one instance that came close was Polish lancers successfully charging German infantry, until German tanks reinforced the infantry and wiped the lancers out.
>>593891
I think hitler was a pretty bad guy.
Nazi Germany and the USSR both committed atrocities in Poland at the start of the war.
though Poland wasn't innocent due to that whole Czechslovakian affair and in some ways it's ironic (since Germany was basically using Czech tanks since Panzer 1's were pretty shit-tier.)
Poland fell because they used horse cavalry against tanks
>>593973
no
>>593646
>I keep Poland poland poland poland
>>597202
Earth shattering counterargument. xDDD
>>596234
I heard that it was armored cars and that the cavalry retreated after taking a few casualties.
>>593695
>giving the British and French time to prepare the invasion of Germany
They were never going to invade Germany.
The French high command was throughly fascist itself and the UK was down right friendly with the Germans.
>>593699
>They should've been more careful with Hitler. Agree with some of his demands.
Which would have only lead to more demands by Hitler.
He wasn't going to accept an independent Poland no matter what, the Poles were next on the list list to get sent up the chimney after the Jews.
>>593460
>why did Poland fail in 1939?
They were overwhelmingly outnumbered by the Germans in ever conceivable category.
Then the Soviets invaded...
