Here we discuss the history of Islam and its importance in history.
Note that even though this is an Islam thread everyone can join in on the discussion so don't be afraid even if you are not muslim.
>Anyone can join in but pls no shitposting
>>56681
>refugees not accepting help from female nurses in hospitals because that is hahal
Are nasheeds historical?
All the ones I seem to find are modern ones that sound enhanced by computers or something
When did Islamic chants come into practice?
I'd heard Mohammed banned music, though I don't know too much about that
>>56681
out of curiosity, are there any historical accounts of the prophet mohammed outside of islam? or is it like the controversy about the existence of jesus? islam's affect on the history of the world has been undeniable, regardless of whether you support it or not, I just wonder what is fact and what is legend regarding it's origins
What are the immediate differences, as in rituals and customs, as opposed to Christianity. I only the basics.
>>56681
remember everyone, keep your report finger strong. we have a chance for a good board here, but we are going to have to fight to keep it from being overrun by shitposters
>>56919
Some people argue Mohammed was mentioned in the bible but yeah his existence is controversial to non-muslims.
>>56937
I would like to know this as well.
Any muslims here to answer I think op left because of gay shitpost.
Is it true that Mohammed actually led a bunch of battles against cities and caravans?
>>56776
>I'd heard Mohammed banned music
He didn't. There are a couple of Hadiths that stated he didn't like music that much and would cover his ears if he passed a Sheppard playing a flute. Nonetheless, he didn't ban or scold the ones playing music. It was also reported that he encouraged people to play music on happy occasions like Eid and weddings. This issue, playing instruments, is a little controversial nonetheless. But everyone agrees that singing and poetry without instruments is OK and, to some extent, encouraged.
As for nasheeds. Lots of the ones you hear today are modern ones. They do take the classical poetry format though.
If your looking for poetry, chants and lyrics, then there's a HUUUGE library of that. Extending from pre-Islamic times to modern times.
>>57034
If nothing else, he was one heckuva warlord.
>>56966
mentioned how? christians believe jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah. did mohammad fulfill similar prophecies? or are there actual accounts of him in the new testament, also, i was thinking more along the lines of reports from figures disconnected from the religion itself. for example, one compelling argument for the existence of jesus as a historical figure is the accounts of justinius
>>56937
in theory all of the abrahamic religions worship the same god; the god of abraham as described in the old testament. beyond that a lot of differences are regional, as with all religions. in fact, in general religious practices tend to reflect regional cultures more than any actual dogma.
>>57073
>singing and poetry without instruments is OK
>poetry, chants, lyrics
Mohammad confirmed for being fond of Hip-Hop?
>>57122
In the New Testament, Jesus sort of sets up the way the church 'should' be run, although it is vague enough for the schism to have occurred. Wasn't Mohammad more specific with this, or did he do something similar?
>>57122
Not the same guy but I've seen Muslims claim Muhammad is the Comforter/Paraclete mentioned in John 14:16
Everyone /pol/ is planning on raiding this thread.
keep your eyes glued to the report button.
This thread will learn us about the history of Islam, as many people like myself see more muslims everyday in Europe.
>>56681
Do you think we're seeing Islam evolve into a modern world religion?
Are Islamic extremists simply unable to let go of the traditional ways?
I understand Islam had importance in uniting and progressing the middle east throughout history, which has had important impact on the entire world, but I always seem to run into a gap no one talks about around 1600-1900 where Islam seems to die, save for Byzantine.
>>57381
>save for Byzantine.
You uh
YOu mean the Ottomans, right?
>>56919
Well, it's hard to deny Muhammad's existence. Of course if your looking for him mentioned in Roman or Chinese records then you won't find him mentioned; the guy didn't live there. But on the other hand, all his companions recorded his existence first hand. And the way Arabic narrations work is that every narrations should be authenticated by checking the list of people narrating, making sure they, the narrators, themselves are known, have good memory and met each other. So its hard to deny the big amount of narrations and Islamic record about him. Also consider that Muhammad had children, and to this day his descendants exist and their family trees are authenticated and recorded as well. Another things are that Muhammad didn't claim to be some sort of son of god with miraculous birth or anything, and the spread of Islam was during his time, not some decades later. So I don't think being skeptical about his existence makes much sense.
>>57420
Right, thanks for pointing that out, it's been a while.
>>57381
the thing with islam is that the book doesn't change or there is no 'pope' equivalent who gives no rules about christianity.
the most progressive islamic countries are non denominational.
As someone who grew up in an islamic country, I recognize it had it's place, but I wish to see it go away. Corrupt leaders very much use it to their advantage so people are blind to the troubles around them
Would anyone else agree that any questions regarding to "why does modern Islam do this ass-backward thing" can be answered with "because the Mongols sacked Baghdad?"
I feel like if it weren't for the Mongols, we'd be living in a Middle-East centric world rather than a Eurocentric world. Unbroken scientific progress, mathematics, medicine...
>>57709
Far too simplistic
The Ottoman Empire was once arguably the most advanced civilization in the world and I don't recall Istanbul being sacked by Mongols
>>57589
The lack of centrality or institution makes Islam quite interesting
All it takes is one hardline cleric to start spouting puritan memes, and we get shit like Salafism
>>57745
>Istanbul
>center of Islamic-anything
It was Baghdad and you know it.
The Satanic Verses incident literally proves that Muhammed was a big time memer. Why do people in the 21st century believe in him? This is not even mentioning the fact that the Qur'an is full of contradictions in the stories of the Prophets then claims that it is the last Revelation
>>56767
read the sticky
Why is the Quran so crappy? Unlike the bible the quran is overly aggressive and condescending, why would I join a religion where the the author of it is an angry cunt
>>57709
I don't think so, honestly. I know the impact was significant but I don't think sparing one city would alter the course of history so drastically.
>>56776
a lot of things islam banns now are a result of them taking thinsg muhommad did in passing super serious.
even alcohol he wasn't particularly against just he didn't like people getting drunk during prayer time.
>>56937
the most immediate aspect of islam is integrating prayer into the daily routine of your life, a practicing muslim stops for prayer 5 times every single day so in theory piety is a cornerstone of day to day life.
>>57883
Put up some sources then faggot
>>57883
>the god of the Bible isn't an angry cunt
>the Bible isn't angry and violent
kek
>>57883
Because Muhammed only preached that tolerance BS during the Meccan period when he was outnumbered. When he started to gain a real following, he showed his true colors and put down a bunch of hateful garbage that abrogated the good stuff
He was mentally ill and hateful, having grown up without any parental contact.
>>57937
not the relevant part
>>57866
the same reason people believe in any religion
>>57934
the same
they differ on the political and mystical, not in observance.
>>57931
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
>>57904
hahal is not a word
you may have confused it with the word halal but it would have been an improper use of that term because halal means acceptable
I think you meant to say haram which means sinful.
if you absolutely must shitpost atleast try to do it without making yourself look like an idiot next time.
>>57884
I think it would have. The post-Roman world's progress was basically concentrated in either Asia or Middle East, and Mongols basically went about sacking all the important metropolitan areas.
You could argue that the Mongols incorporated a lot of the intellectuals into their own society (and went on to form a Chinese dynasty of their own), but the collective institutional knowledge isn't something that's easily replaced. Sacking of a place like Baghdad is a huuuuuuge deal.
>>57920
I don't think its impossible, but I don;t see it happening any time soon just due to the nature of Islam today and all the historical baggage many Muslims can't get rid of.
>>57883
I'm a Catholic but have you even actually read the Quran?
its very poetic and beautiful, a work of art in itself especially in Arabic.
though Islam itself is just a christian heresy and Quran comes from the Syriac word for Liturgy. beyond that a good 20% of the Quran is actually in Syriac and lifted straight from their gospels.
Islam began as a christian reform/heretical movement in opposition tot he tyranny of the Romans and Byzantium finding haven in the neutral territories of Arabia.
contemporary figures pointed this out themselves and in the middle ages people considered Muhammad a schismatic like Luther rather than a heathen.
St. John of Damascus wrote extensively on the new Arabian heresy
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
>>58093
The first few pages are basically
Allah will destroy the filthy non believers, they will be crushed by their ways, praise be to Muhammad all must remember muhammad destroy the immoral pagans
>>57709
no because that's complete wank
the mongols were a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant, Turk controlled Muslim world which would have just fought itself to obliteration.
following the Mongol invasion there was a massive resurgence in the Islamic world as these conquerors converted, and the Muslim center moved from Baghdad to Turkey Iran and India instead which all flourished.
the real "end" of Islam as a global power came in the 17th-18th centuries with the collapse of the Gunpowder empires and their power.
>>58093
Islam literally confides the people of the book (Jews and Christians) to a lower status so this makes no sense. Islam is just the creation of a deeply disturbed man in the hellish environment of the 7th century Arabia
>>58171
desu being a Christian under Islam for a long time was better than being a christian under the slightly different christian Byzantines
in Iberia they were a minority so they had to be lenient, plus all that Jizya monies meant tons of dosh that they didn't want to stop.
>>58093
>Islam itself is just a christian heresy
Not really. Christ never played a central role in Islamic dogma.
On the other hand, Christianity, it can be argued, was a Jewish heresy.
It could also be argued that Islam was an ecumenical Jewish 'movement' of sorts that sought to restore the 'true faith' of monotheism, seeing as how critical Islam was of the concept of trinity and how closely Islamic theology mirrors Jewish theology.
>Quran comes from the Syriac word for Liturgy
That's a cute theory, but it's discredited by virtually all historians and linguists.
>>58161
>sucking the revisionist cock this hard
The Mongols were ruthless conquerors, and there's no way to sugarcoat it.
>>58220
People were ruined by Jizya though. Yeah sure Islam was tolerant because they didn't outright kill them (most of the time) like Christians but it's really not that special
>>58246
Basically this.
Also: if you think about it, Catholicism is a militant Christian heresy with elements of Nordic paganism blended in.
>>58253
"revisionism" is going to be the first /his/ meme
>>58246
>Christ never played a central role in Islamic dogma.
Christ playing a minor role doesn't make it non-christian
lots of early christian work mentions Christ so little its hard to tell if it is Jewish or not.
the entirety of Islamic theology is basically a continuation of the Arian heretical movement after they were exiled from the Empire
>>58253
and their invasion really didn't matter much in the long run, the long term results were an overall net-gain as I said since they all converted anyways.
>>58093
>Quran comes from the Syriac word for Liturgy
No. It comes from Arabic قرأ (qara), meaning to read. Qur'an just means recitation.
>>58275
Catholicism = Christianity tbf
>>58304
and the Arabic is derived partially from heavy Syriac influence.
>>58275
I've often felt that catholocism is just a way of taking judaism and making it more palatable for pagans what with the iconography, multiple deities, cannibalism, bacchanalians, etc
>>56681
>religion of peace
>one of the first things Mohammad does is raise an army and go to war with mecca
aside from being a pedo he was a pretty cool guy and doesn't afraid of no heretics
>>58350
a proddy would think that.
Fun fact: Muhammed died due to complications of being poisoned by a Jew woman
>>58246
Isa is literally the Messiah and is only second to Muhammad himself in importance in Islam
He also didn't die unlike the pedo warlord and will return in the times of the Apocalypse
>>57709
no
portugal or some other sea bearing european country would of eventually fucked the middle east by discovering that african trade route dooming the middle east to irrelevance
>>58363
The religion of peace meme was started by George W. Bush.
Nobody had used the phrase "religion of peace" before, certainly not Muslims. They just called the "the one true faith/religion" or something to that effect.
Also, he only went to war with Mecca in self-defense, after they drove out him and his followers after years of persecution, seizing their properties.
>pedo
Child marriage =/= pedophilia
>>58326
Yes, it could be argued that the original Christianity isn't Catholicism. But the original Christianity has been altered so much by the Roman church that what we burgers commonly call Christianity (protestant) is derived heavily from Catholicism.
>>58350
Catholicism was a way of justifying post-Roman church to go to war by incorporating the more violent elements of paganism into the religion. You can't exactly go to war with what's often touted as "religion of peace."
>>58368
im jewish actually
>>58363
>aside from being a pedo
judge people based on the morality of their era, child marriage was completely acceptable back then
the one that gets to me is that Mohammad severely curtailed the rights of women through islamic law compared to pre-islamic arabian law
>>58459
Those seafaring civilizations wouldn't exist if middle-ages Arabs and Chinese didn't get steamrolled, though.
If the Mongols didn't exist, I think one civilization that would've brought down the Arabs would've been one of the Chinese dynasties and its client kingdoms.
>>58484
as if a Jew would know anything of what it means to be Catholic.
>>58504
if anything he expanded the rights of women over prior
>>58504
>curtailed the rights of women
Source?
I've always heard he gave women more rights compared to what they had before.
>>58466
>Child marriage =/= pedophilia
Sure it is mate
>>58534
>>58541
the rights of women to own property were revoked which I always found rather shocking considering Khadija's wealth from owning a caravan was what allowed him to live the life of a poet in the first place.
There were also many different forms of marriage in pre-islamic arabia including women marrying mutliple men, but that was restricted to only allow men to marry multiple women.
>>58561
Child marriage (i.e what Muhammad and his society practiced) has been practiced by virtually every society and civilization throughout every time period.
Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, Indians, Turks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, and more - they all did it. It was normal then.
It only started to be seen as abnormal in the late 1800s due to the Purity movements in the Anglosphere.
>>58534
>>58541
No way. The Qur'an has some sympathy for women. However the inheritance laws, religious customs and denigration of their entire gender is way beyond anything in pagan Arabia. I mean just look at shit like this
It was narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that women will form the majority of the people of Hell. It was narrated from ‘Imran ibn Husayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 3241; Muslim, 2737)
With regard to the reason for this, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was asked about it and he explained the reason.
It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allah ibn ‘Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “I was shown Hell and I have never seen anything more terrifying than it. And I saw that the majority of its people are women.” They said, “Why, O Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Because of their ingratitude (kufr).” It was said, “Are they ungrateful to Allah?” He said, “They are ungrateful to their companions (husbands) and ungrateful for good treatment. If you are kind to one of them for a lifetime then she sees one (undesirable) thing in you, she will say, ‘I have never had anything good from you.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 1052)
and
The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, “Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).” I said, “You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away for I disliked to face him.”
>>58609
>the rights of women to own property were revoked
But that's wrong. One of the defining characteristics of Sharia law is women can own, inherit, and bequeath property and that their property is separate from their husbands (he has no right to it).
>>58648
>It only started to be seen as abnormal in the late 1800s
I'd say it was more the early 1800's in the west when adolescence began to be viewed as a distinct period of development.
>>58609
Yeah, that's something that always just amazes me. Khadijah was one of the most famous and respected women in Islam and taught Muhammad everything he knew about being a merchant, but if she were alive in those countries that claim to be the most devout Muslim states, she would be murdered. How do those aforementioned states reconcile that?
>>57883
look at the old testament god, he is described as a vengeful nearly psychotic entity, the main dfierence between muslims and christians is that the latter have moved on and dont take the crazy parts very seriously
also mohamed was a warlord, so of course his religion will be warlike
>>57891
this is true, sunni muslims are particularly guilty of it
>>57589
>As someone who grew up in an islamic country, I recognize it had it's place, but I wish to see it go away. Corrupt leaders very much use it to their advantage so people are blind to the troubles around them
this, its way too easy to abuse since any one cleric can claim whatever he wants and gain followers, not having any central authority like the pope is turning out to be a really bad thing, I think its also what propagates muslim-on-muslim violence, since there is not some power recognised by everyone that can just demand they "cut it out"
>>58699
Girls were being married off to adult men around the age of 7 in the Americas (both North and South) during the 1800s.
China stopped the tradition of child marriage only very recently.
In India, around 47% of girls are/were married off as children. Child marriage is still common in the world's largest democracy.
>>58668
Those were hadiths made centuries after the Qur'an, and mostly attributed to a guy who was specifically recorded as being called out numerous times by Aysha and Mu'awiyyah for being a misogynist who kept making up quotes and attributing them to Muhammad.
However I will say that the fact that hadiths have any authority whatsoever is a big problem with Islam imo.
>>58777
no one here is trying to justify child marriage, we are saying it is understandable within its historical context
I'm sure people in the future will find things you do shockingly unethical.
During the summer I read the account of Ahmad ibn Fadlan and other Muslim travelers to medieval Russia and it was really interesting.
There were even accounts of an iron wall separating the earth from the giants and accounts of giants using tree trunks as weapons.
>>58388
No, he died of bacterial meningitis.
>>58648
It's still pedophilia.
I'm all for relaxing teenager sex laws, but prepubescent children are not ready for sexual relations. Even if they appear to be interested.
>People are actually discussing shit and not shitposting.
>mfw
Sup guys, muslim here.
Like many other muslims, I no longer believe that adultery should be punished by caning or stoning. Simply put, I dont think hudud is a good idea.
But I still believe in Allah and the prophet.
What should I do?
>>58856
Go to imam for advice he is more qualified than us.
>>58856
live a happy life
>>58856
>What should I do?
declare jihad on the expanding russian empire and blow up any planes that fly into egypts airspace
>>58851
there were a lot of shitposts before but a mod cleared them out
>>58851
/his/ is 60% muslim. (40% Nazi)
They care deeply
>>58848
You do know that Mary is generally believed to have been about 13 when she gave birth to Jesus, yes? And 12 when she was betrothed to Joseph, who, going by apocryphal accounts at least, was old enough to be her grandfather.
>>58910
oh, well at least they are gone now
>>57589
What would a Muslim "pope" be like? How would it come about? How would people react to it?
Actually, that sounds like an awesome alternate history concept.
>>58841
>Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:713
>>58856
>What should I do?
Well, drop islam
Theism is just dumb. I dropped my religion and feel 100 times better.
>>58925
So God was a pedophile too?
It's all starting to add up now
>>58856
You can still be a religious person and have faith in god without believing that the Quran is the literal word of god. Focus on leading by example by being a moral and ethical person yourself rather than trying to force your ethics on others.
Personally though I have a difficult time believing in an inherently caring god when I look around and see all the horrors of the world, which makes me feel that organized religion is largely a pointless endeavor.
>>58856
hudud is not necessary if there isn't an islamic caliphate
Thing about hudud, is there has to be a process about it, like literally you can't just have a band of soldiers placing hudud punishment to people
>>58929
That's basically what a caliph is, except caliphs had to have political/military power for their claim to be taken seriously.
A caliph without an empire would just be some random imam. Some would listen to him, some wouldn't, and he'd have a pretty hard time convincing anyone that he has any more authority than any other imam.
When did Islam turn to shit?
They were doing Algebra, and reading up on the Classics.
I remember reading somewhere, that due to allegations of apostasy, Islamic universities in the medieval ages weren't that good for being a center of innovative learning.
>>58989
I think going with the ottoman style would be better, where there is a Sheikh-ul-Islam, that takes part of all the religious stuff, and the caliph was more political/millitary
Hey guys I think we should start talking about the history of the religion instead of just discussing the religion.
Otherwise we gonna be deleted.
>>59019
Pls read the thread fully before posting.
>>59019
>This board is dedicated to the discussion of history and the other humanities such as philosophy, religion, law, classical artwork, archeology, anthropology, ancient languages, etc.
Which Islamic empire was best Islamic empire?
My vote goes to Abbasid.
>>58648
any evidence of people fucking 9 year old girls except for some desert nomads?
>>59019
theology is a cornerstone of the humanities
>>59048
Would the mughal empire even count as islamic?
>The ideal age of a recruit was between 7 and 10 years of age, although they recruited much younger boys. The devşirme system was locally resented and was resisted, even to the point of disfiguring their sons
That's what you get, Ottomans
>>59077
Yes. Aurangzeb was such a huge Muslim he outlawed music.
>>59048
The one that almost had a foothold in Southern France ~1000ad Not too sure about the date
>>59102
and he burned the empire to the ground
the absolute madman
>>59056
Virginia, 1689: Mary Hathaway was only 9 when she was married to William Williams.
England, 17th century: Sir Edward Coke made it clear that the marriage of girls under 12 was normal.
In France, until the French Revolution, the marriageable age was 12 years for girls.
>>58856
Instigate a Muslim Reformation
>>59140
any actual sources?
anyway, when were those marriages consummated? because I was specifically asking for evidence of 9 year old girls getting fucked at such age being the norm
Best Muslim ever. Best Muslim empire, too.
>>59048
fatimids, hands down, their cavalry even managed to score a win against mongols
>>59115
Umayyads, early 700s
>>59197
>>59224
>horsefuckers
>>59242
you say that like its a bad thing
>>59195
http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/Age-of-Consent.html
The marriage was consummated on the wedding night, as is custom in Western tradition and is expected. Are you trying to be retarded on purpose or is your autism just acting up?
>>59242
Stay mad, Bayezid
>>59283
I think he's coyly trying to ask for historical child porn.
>>56681
I actually want to read the Koran to better understand Islam and it's artistic and cultural significance. It's like the Bible, everyone should look at it, even if you don't believe it.
That said, pic kinda related.
>>59316
I agree. One bit of advice, though: avoid the Khan translation. It is seriously bad. Like, the translator keeps adding in these little jibes in parentheses about Jews and Christians and whatnot. It is basically like if the Conservative Bible Project got official backing from an actual government (Saudi Arabia, who funded and pushed the Khan translation to support their regime). Yet it's also one of the more widespread translations, because, again, the Saudis actively support it.
>>59187
Something akin to what the Mu 'tazilites tried to do, or what Muhammad Abduh advocated for in the late 19th century.
>>58856
Make "apostasy" legal for muslims.
>>56966
But unlike Jesus, Muhammad is proven to exist. Many letters and tax papers are signed by him personally. He even sent letters to the Byzantine emperor, and he responded. So Muhammad definately existed.
>>59448
>signed by him personally
nigga he didn't sign shit. he couldn't read or write.
but i know what you mean.
>>57971
Worst source ever. Read the Quran, that's the only credible source on the topic, moron.
Having recently read the Qur'an, it seems to me as though Sam Harris was spot on in saying that ISIS is a good example of what we would see should a group of people follow the Qur'an wholly and literally.
In comparison to other major religious texts, the Qur'an seems genuinely violent and preaches a way of life that is very archaic. The Old Testament is just as bad if not worse - but a major difference is that it does not glorify a believer's death and martyrdom. Islamic fundamentalists get their justification for killing infidels right from their text. They are looking forward to death.
Would like to hear some thoughts on this. Please help me clear up any misconceptions I may have.
>>59428
Also, an understanding amongst Sunnis that the Quran is created rather than uncreated would be pretty nice.
>>59543
Hey youre contributing to the shitposting stop it
>>59528
Which verses of the Quran justify what ISIS is doing?
The random slaughter of civilians? The killing of Muslims? The rape and torture?
>>59121
Akbar was based though
Mughals were definately Muslim, if the non-muslims had to pay jizyah, the state was definitely an Islamic(ish) state
Akbar was really liberal though, he abolished jizya for a while, but then probably realized he didn't have the right as a muslim leader to do that, and reinstated it
>>59197
"Towards the end of his life he ruled, at least temporarily, over northern India (801/1398), Syria (803/1400) and Anatolia (804/1402)—or rather, he plundered and massacred relentlessly throughout these countries. In spite of his bigoted and ostentatious Sunni piety, he was one of the worst enemies to whom Islamic civilization ever fell a victim; moreover he systematically decimated the Christians, with the result that since then the Nestorians and Jacobites of Mesopotamia have been only a shadow of their former selves. In the course of his campaigns he slaughtered countless thousands and built pyramids of their skulls. Innumerable towns were devastated and their inhabitants pillaged. Islamic learning and art suffered damage from which they took long to recover, and in some areas never recovered at all. Timiir's only aesthetic interest was the embellishment of his capital, Samarqand, which was effected by artists and craftsmen gathered from afar; many of his buildings have survived to the present day, through the care of his successors and subsequent restoration."
-Cambridge History of Islam Vol. 1 page 188.
Hilarious joke m8 would giggle again.
>>59389
Yeah? I'll remember that.
>>59528
If you really did read the Qur'an, you would know exactly why ISIS is not islamic. I mean it is true there are verses in the Qur'an that seems to justify ISIS, but those verses talk about an entirely different scenario (eg when non-Muslims attack Muslims, and drive them out of their houses, take their property, stop them from visiting mosques etc)
>>58911
>/his/ is 60% muslim
>>59693
>can't handle history the post
>>59811
>responding to shitposts
>>59811
Please enlighten me on islams importance, what benefits did it have that still effect us to this day and our lives would be much different without
>>59543
don't do this, just report and ignore
mods have been deleting shitposts
>>59697
>honestly believing a religion started by a warlord didn't have war and violence on it's number one agenda
>>59667
what would a khan be without his pyramid of skulls?
>>59871
>warlord
Muhammad was originally a merchant.
He only took up the sword about 12 years into his ministry to defend himself and his community from the Meccans.
>>59693
>failing to invade europe
>Umayyads conquer the majority of Iberia and for a short time parts of Languedoc.
>Emirate of Sicily that lasted a couple hundred years
>the Hordes subjugating Russia
>centuries long occupation of the Balkans
>failing to invade Europe
Hell, the Pope made plans to flee to France in the face of an imminent Ottoman invasion.
>>56681
>importance in history
you mean like destroying historical monuments to civilisations past?
>>59905
To be fair, he did raid caravans (especially ones en route to Mecca) before the whole war with Mecca. But caravan raiding was happening way before his time.
>>59950
You do realise the average joe doesn't just go around raiding caravans?
>>59975
Caravan raiding back then was a big thing.
>>59950
it wasn't uncommon to marry 6 year olds either
>>59986
If you were a pedophile plundering warlord, perhaps.
>>59975
i think what anon is trying to say is that mohamad didn't invent raiding caravans and therefore he didn't really do anything wrong.
like if you owned pokemon cards as a kid, raiding caravans was trendy. mohamad was merely a follower.
>>60002
i learned that 2 wrongs don't make a right when i was 5.
>>60010
>i think what anon is trying to say is that mohamad didn't invent raiding caravans and therefore he didn't really do anything wrong.
To be fair, that rapist/murderer/torturer didn't invent rape/murder/torture, and therefore didn't do anything wrong.
Can someone educate me on the hijab why in different countries some hijabs are more covering than other hijabs?
>>60000
>>60023
Funny how the God of the Bible never learned that then.
>>60025
well yeah, like i said. he was just going with the flow, his ideas weren't anything revolutionary or new and as such he clearly wasn't a prophet.
you would think that a prophet would know that 2 wrongs don't make a right.
>>60025
Not the person you're arguing with, but, pop quiz, I want you to try to name a 7th century army or warleader whose soldiers didn't rape or enslave enemies or conquered civilians, didn't commit any acts that by modern standards would be considered warcrimes, and didn't marry anyone under the age of 18.
Actually, for that matter, I'd like you to try naming any such army or warleader who existed before the 15th Century.
>>60059
>he wasn't a prophet because his actions don't conform with my 21st century view of morality
Don't read up on the Old Testament or the Hebrew Prophets then, kid. You might get even more upset.
>>60077
>right of conquest is stealing now
the /pol/tard is strong here
>>60051
this is a thread about islam, and i don't give a single fuck about god.
>>60081
>name a 7th century army or warleader
wow you are really grasping at straws here. people still do that shit today. i'm just saying that you would think that a prophet of god would know better, unless god isn't real which would make mohammad a no-good, lying son of a bitch, right?
>>60120
>that entire post
my fedora tipped itself
>>59913
why are you responding seriously to the /pol/tard?
>>60103
wasn't gonna. funny thing is that islam came after all that whole christianity shit and i noticed that you specifically mentioned the old testament.
shouldn't islam echo the new testament if mohamad is a prophet? not saying that jesus is real but you pretty much need to believe in one or the other, if one is telling the truth then the other is lying.
>>60132
What did Islam invent themselves and not adopt from subjucated cultures they may or may not also enslaved?
Why is it that muslims seem to cause trouble wherever they live? Even in Japan where there are about 4000 Turks they had a Clash with Kurds in front of an embassy like two weeks back for example.
Also, "Islam is a violent ideology meant to control all layers of society and if need be direct them for war, disquised as a religion." What can be said against that? Seeing how many battles where fought in name of Islam and its values since it came into existence and how a relatively small population of arabic desert folk carved out a huge empire within a short span of time after Islam came to be would support that no?
Why is it that people ignore the part of history where muslims have tried to conquer europe for centuries, and that they did conquer much of spain, the byzantine empire, and into the balkans?
>>60192
Also being Nazi allies.
Everyone begging for Hitler to come back to deal with Yurop's muslims seems not to understand that muslims were an ally to him,
>>60192
They didn't try to conquer "all of Europe" - that was never a goal of any Islamic empire.
But conquering Constantinople and expanding into Eastern Europe and the Balkans was a strategic goal of the Ottomans, yes.
>>60205
Hardly: Hitler promoted Germans first, not multiculturalism. If Hitler did come back he would end the idea that the west has to bend over and take Muslim dick, though he may encourage Muslim participation in German society.
I have two questions that if anyone could answer I would be grateful
1) How do Muslims reconcile themselves with the Satanic Verses incident? Surely if Mohammed was accidentally communicating with the devil that time, he could have been doing it all the time? Or just making it all up?
2) Why do Muslims treat the Kaaba as if it had some great holy significance? It is a relic from the days in which people in the region were idolaters, circling a giant rock is unnecessary in a true monotheistic religion, surely?
>>60215
You honestly believe they would of stopped at Vienna? Are you deluded?
>>60081
>I want you to try to name a 7th century army or warleader
We're talking about religious figures here, not warlords.
Did Jesus kill his enemies and rape underage sex slaves? Did Buddha kill his enemies and rape underage sex slaves?
>>60180
Ottomans were a fucking joke in terms of inventions and discoveries. Besides those canons that helped capture Constantinople, what else did they invent in ~500 years? Kebab? Maybe yogurt? Some lame musical instruments? That's really the best they could do?
>>60307
What cannons did they invent?
I am pretty sure the massive cannon they had was made by some guy they paid, a Greek possibly
>>60249
>1) How do Muslims reconcile themselves with the Satanic Verses incident? Surely if Mohammed was accidentally communicating with the devil that time, he could have been doing it all the time? Or just making it all up?
The historicity of the incident is widely disputed. It was only first mentioned anywhere at all more than a century after Muhammad had died and the Quran had been compiled. For all we know, it never even happened.
>2) Why do Muslims treat the Kaaba as if it had some great holy significance? It is a relic from the days in which people in the region were idolaters, circling a giant rock is unnecessary in a true monotheistic religion, surely?
According to not just Islamic belief but greater pan-Semitic mythology, the Kaaba was built by Abraham as a temple to honor the one true God.
According to Islam, it had been corrupted over time by the pagan Meccans and other Arabs who had begun to house idols in it and used it for the practice of pagan religious practices and idol worship.
>>57034
>actually led a bunch of battles against cities and caravans?
Yeah - he was a pretty competent military commander as well as being a shrewd statesman.
>>60325
This
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanelles_Gun
It's more of an innovation than invention, but I was just trying to be fair to Ottokeks.
>>60306
>rape underage sex slaves
Nice dramatization there /pol/tard
Child marriage =/= underage sex slavery
>>56681
muslims have been trying to conquer europe for centuries, and they did conquer much of spain, the byzantine empire, and into the balkans.
Fuck islam and fuck muslims.
>>58161
>the mongols were a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant, Turk controlled
The mongols predated the 'turk controlled muslim world' though if you're talking Ottoman empire. The muslim world was heavily dominated by the egyptians/persians/arabs during that time period.
Is there any reason that Islam causes the most trouble compared to other religions? Sure, The Bible has violent verses but you don't see as many terrorists or 'crusaders' coming from Christianity.
Is there some how any way to modernize Islam; to take away the violent verses? Or even better, have a Pope like figure to condemn the actions of terrorists?
>>60376
How old was Aisha again when he raped her?
>>60403
Al-Baghdadi seems like a pretty chill caliph. Think he's dead though.
>>60376
>nice moral relativism
>>60403
Because Christianity has been defanged by the Enlightenment.
>>58363
>is raise an army and go to war with mecca
Some sources would argue of a self-defensive nature. Conspiring tribes seeking to crush this unruly upstart so he struck first.
Nothing really wrong with that from any point of view. Do people not have a right to defend themselves?
>>60439
According to /pol/tards only white people have the right to self-defense.
>>60431
But the Islamic golden age was like the Renaissance. Why didn't it cause Muslims to think that perhaps god doesn't cause everything in the world like it did with the Christians.
>>58609
>the rights of women to own property were revoked
That is blatantly false though.
>>60397
Turks came before the mongols. Then mongols. Then more turks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire
>>60451
>expecting JIDF and /pol/ shills to tell the truth
lel
>>60439
Depends on who you ask. Many (mostly younger) people foster this ludicrous belief that you should never resolve to kill someone, even in self-defense (example, all of the mental gymnastics revolving around the weekly cop-shoots-rowdy-black-kid events). Self defense, when I was younger, was seen as a cornerstone of personal virtue; it was one thing to stay out of trouble, but admirable to fucking break a mugger's arm and leg when he tried to assault you. Modern day views of self-defense range from NRA-style total support to bleeding heart total opposition, but the view that self-defense should be "tempered" is becoming more popular.
>>60307
They did have an observatorium, whose head was a guy who was really good at calculating stars. Then some fucking Imam claimed he built all the telescopes to look at angels' private parts from underneath, and the Navy had to blast the place down with fucking cannons.
>>60420
This.
Muhammad is treated as the universal moral role model for Islam.
However by the standards of the 21st Century today, the actions he took in his mission would be considered unethical, at the very least far from the symbol of purity he is made out to be.
On the other hand, other religious figureheads such as Jesus or Buddha have set examples that the modern man still fails to live up to, there teachings defying the violent, brutal environments in which they were raised.
>>60431
this
>>57254
Mohammed beat the point of Christ coming in the first place. Secondly you had plenty schisms in Islam.
>>60050
Entirely cultural, actually. Hell, if I recall correctly, there is nothing that says 'cover your hair and face' for the women in the Q'uran - just your private parts, them being your breasts, torso, upper arms etc.
>>59950
>To be fair, he did raid caravans (especially ones en route to Mecca) before the whole war with Mecca.
This is to the arab world (at the time and indeed well into the 20th century - read The seven pillars of wisdom by Lawrence of Arabia) as a game of fox hunting is to the English upperclasses.
At least give it context. Every tribe did it, everyone engaged in it, everyone expected it.
K
>>60449
IIRC a big part of the end of the Islamic Golden Age was the sacking of Baghdad. Also, later on, the Late Middle Ages to Early Modern period, the Ottomans were on par with Europe, until the discovery of New World trade routes made the Silk Road routes redundant, and gold brought back from the Americas started filling European coffers and allowing them more time to sit and think about shit and advance with all their newly-acquired riches, while the Ottomans, having not been part of the expansion into the Americas, sort of started declining.
During the Islamic Golden Age though, they were fairly secular.
>>59095
While some went around disfiguring, others were actually quite happy to give their children. It's like the Government coming and telling you that your boy's going to become part of an elite cadre of society, maybe even get to rule huge parts of the Empire, while you're too busy dying of diarrhea in the Balkans.
>>60306
>We're talking about religious figures here
You presupposing what a 'religious figure' is from your own preconceived bias though.
>>60522
Until Turks get jealous, and abolish the system so they can make their kids Janissaries
>>60551
Fucking Murad III I swear. Like, guy just wants to be cool and gift the men who entertained him, and it literally fucks the army apart.
>>60331
>According to not just Islamic belief but greater pan-Semitic mythology
source?
>>60180
>What did Islam invent themselves
Do you mean Islam or muslims?
Islam provided a framework and paradigm which allowed some of the greatest empires to exist. It allowed people to unite behind something monolithic rather than stay fragmented. Throughout history the conduct of these people have been shown to be morally upstanding and at other times morally appalling. The stability and prosperity bought by the 'Islamic' expansion bought many developments and muslims were at the forefront of many technological and scientific advances not just 'they copied and translated' - they also very much innovated as well.
>and not adopt from subjucated cultures
But they did. There is a great plurality in Islam throughout history and even today hence why no-one country seems to be the same to another totally. Cultural differences survived and syncretic practices were implemented.
Why is it that muslims seem to cause trouble wherever they live?
Are you talking modern times? These are more the products of post-colonialist, post cold war (even active cold war) elements. It's interesting you cite
> are about 4000 Turks they had a Clash with Kurds
Which is entirely an ethnic and political subject which Islam has nothing to do with.
There's no point engaging with you any further because like an uneducated fool your profound ignorance and ready-made bias and viewpoint is all to apparent.
>>60597
Spanish Silver devalued his economy, though.
>>60643
Eh, the Empire started leaking corruption out of its ass by the later reign of Suleiman.
>>56681
Jewish fanfiction volume 2, created by a pedophile warlord
So /his/:
Who's your favourite of the Rashidun Caliphs?
Sunni or Shia?
Sufism: halal or haram?
Best Sura?
Favourite kefiyyeh design?
Jews: should we greet them with 'al-salaam' or 'al-saam'?
>>60726
You irl
So, why does Islam seem to have degenerated? Back in the early years they were leaders in science and technology, especially in things like astronomy.
What went wrong?
so glad these garbage threads are finally off /pol/
thanks /his/
>>60818
Who's that?
>>60918
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge
>>60988
Ok, but I genuinely dislike Islam, mainly because it has appropriated jewish religion and culture, and it saddens me that I can not, as a jew, go to Israel and pray on the temple mount, the holiest site in judaism, because Muslims conquered it and built a mosque on top of it centuries after it was built by jews
>>60612
>empires didn't exist before islam
the world is only 1600 years old! nothing existed before islam, it is the first religion! allahu ackbar, friend.
>>61164
He didn't say that at all, stop shitposting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no5RCHRbknk&list=PLv-SNV2XmnZkJAGWGRKWTWheqEjEejQnf
I learned about Islam from this guy on Youtube. His stuff feels objective.
Any of you want to dedicate an hour to watch them and critique them?
>>60779
All of them
Sunni, though old Sunni, not today's TotallyNotSalafist Sunni
Sufism is totally halal, should be more influential for Islam to get better again
Takvir
Iunno
Iunno
>>57883
Reading it feels like a mass murdering madman shouting orders at you.
>>60851
Politics.
When rulers encouraged sciences and translations, giving scientists money and authority, scientific progress was achieved. The current Islamic world on the other hand is stuck in a pile of mess-ups, failed countries, shitty culture, corruption... etc.
>>60851
Crusades
Mongols
Shift in Ideology
Stagnation
Redirection of the silk road
Contrary to popular opinion the religion of a region doesn't have a huge effect on it's success, the religion will always change depending on the situation not the other way around.
>>59697
>If you really did read the Qur'an, you would know exactly why ISIS is not islamic
I read the article that anon is referring to and it made a very solid point about this line of thinking being counterproductive.
Essentially by treating ISIS as a bunch of yokels instead of literalists it is causing major misfires by Western attempts to neutralize their expansion.
I can't remember where I read this article, though, and it's not really history related
>>61197
he said that islam provided the framework for some of the greatest empires to exist, this completely dismisses great empires before islamic ones and cites islam as the reason for their success rather than their learning from empires of the past. the british empire was thanks to rome and greece etc and it was a christian empire. the islamic empires were thanks to rome, egypt etc and were islamic.
just because an empire follows a religion does not mean that the religion is responsible for the success of the empire. if that was true then hinduism and buddhism are absolute garbage because most indians can't use toilets and it would provide an objective means to quantify a religions worth, and due to places like america and europe one could objectively say that islam is inferior to christianity. is that what you are saying? are you provided an objective means to compare one religion to another based on how great an empire is?
they weren't great just because they followed islam you fucking takbir monkey.
What annoys me is whenever someone brings up the achievements of the Islamic empires people just say "Oh but they only stole it!". Which is firstly not true but secondly what culture on earth indigenously developed everything they did?
None.
The Romans, one of our greatest empires, took basically all its ideas and concepts from foreigners. It was it's ability to combine, adapt and learn from others that made it great, and the Islamic empires were the same. Their multicultural nature of ruling over many different peoples turned it into a huge melting pop of knowledge and ideas.
Which obviously contradicts the modern view of Islam as a monolithic hivemind, which is obviously not true.
>>61286
Everyone can go to Israel dude
>>60851
Because it started as a generic "us arabs are god's chosen people, lets take over the world", just like the romans, the greeks, and the mongols thought of themselves.
Then it progressed into "us muslims are a rich, kind and caring people, let us consolidate our wealth and land, and make our cities the envy of foreigners" the same as the romans, greeks and mongols did.
And in the end it deteriorated into infighting, usurpers, segmentation, and collapse, same as the romans, greeks and mongols.
Its not abnormal, just treat it as a culture, as "the greek thing" or the roman "we need to spread civilization" or even the white man's burden of colonialism, and its easier to follow and understand.
>>61323
>palestinians
>>61317
In the case of the Islamic empires, Islam was the catalyst. They simply wouldn't have existed without it.
>>61331
Also, I'd say that the battle of of Bassorah/battle of Jamal/battle of the camel at Basra, Iraq in 655 AD was when Islam started to corrupt and things went downhill ideologically. Its when the bad seed was planted.
Still, Islam's golden years were in the future, despite this being the ill omen. In fact by the time Islam had its golden age it had already been corrupted as fuck and everybody was looking for ways to dodge its rules or abuse them for personal gain.
>>61354
wouldn't that make islam the ideological equivalent of the money-hungry corporations of america?
>some people here are irrational enough to dislike a religion and culture because of geopolitics in 2015
>>60779
Umar, probably.
Can't say I fit in any of those.
Sufism: not my cup of tee. But it's not Haram.
Favorite Surah: Al-Sajda.
Favorite kefiyyeh: The Yamani ones (pic related) are cool.
Jews or any other human being for the matter: 'al-salam'; they don't great you first with 'al-saam' so there's no meaning in doing so yourself.
>>61379
No the Arabs only expanded because of Islam.
>>61375
It went downhill as soon as Muhammad died.
Check out the Ridda wars
>Muhammad manages to convert the shitload of Arab Bedouin tribes
>They only really pay lip service to Islam and continue with most of their cultural practices which Islam abolished
>Muhammad dies
>Surprise surprise the Bedouin revolt, Abu Bakr puts the rebellion down and gains control again
>The situation is unstable, something like 100,000 unsettled Angry tribal arabs who are armed now exist
>"Uhh, shit, guys, lets invade the Romans!"
And that solve that problem, but Islam now because Arabized. I know that sounds retarded, they were all Arabs, but Muhammad tried to worst aspects of Arab culture, which all came straight back from this point when the majority of the Muslim population was now Arab tribespeople who hadn't been the original Muslims or known Muhammad. The hijab and Burqa for example are an Arab cultural tradition which have nothing to do with the original Islam. The majority of Islamic traditions are also Arab, not really Islamic. If it isn't in the Qur'an, it's Arab and not Islamic basically.
>>56966
Absoultely not. Muhammed sent letters to Roman Emperor of his time, to Egypt's monarch and to many others. The one he sent to Roman emperor for example is still held in Topkapı Palace.
>>61442
I think your post is missing a few words and its really awkward to read.
Anyways, islam was known among the arabs, it just wasnt centralized and established. Muhammad didnt invent the religion, he only set the rules as to which part of it are made up by grandpa and which are actually known throughout the land, similar to Constantine for christianity.
And I still do think that islam had a chance to remain fit and moral until the muslims started killing each other for politics. That was the turning point, it was no longer a force of us against them, it was a force of this guy and his army against that other guy and his army.
Also, what about jihad? I heard it was originally an arab thing where you leave your tribe and go live alone for a while, fasting and hunting, meditating and trying to harden yourself, see how far you can go. How the fuck did it move from battling your inner demons and becoming a better man to drafting peasants to march against Russia during winter through the mountains with cardboard shoes or blowing yourself up in front of the american embassy in order to get 40 virgins?
>>60726
>created by a pedophile warlord
Why do you call someone who had to fight back people attacking him for his beliefs and united the country peacefully after winning a warlord?
You call him a pedophile referring to some hadiths, how do you deal with contradictions within the hadiths about her age? How do you deal with contradiction with the Qu'ran regarding marriage?
You said that you're a practicing Jew here >>61163 how do you deal with this quote from the Talmud: "It is permitted to marry a 3-year-old girl"
This is not some contradictory report that was not accepted as authentic in the 8th century, it's a very clear law in your jurisprudence and scriptures.
>>61442
>implying america would still be all over the world if there wasn't a profit to be made
profit for american corporations=conquest for islam
>>59487
He could read and write.
>>61514
The letters were written by his companions who knew how to write and read (Katabah). He the sealed the letters, not sign it.
>>61504
Islam came from Muhammad. Arabia was full of Christians and Jews so it's easy to see how he learned so much. I believe he believed he was divinely inspired.
I meant that from an ideological view the Arabic tribes adopted it so swiftly and without taking much real interest in it was bad, it corrupted the ideology. From a geopolitical view, then yeah the Sunni/Shia split was a big fuck up. I don't know why it even matters today, everyone is dead from that time and their descendants.
Jihad means struggle, I don't think there's any preislamic evidence for it, preislamic sources are rare. All it is today as a motivating factor used by leaders to get people to fight.
>>58273
>People were ruined by Jizya though.
No. Jizya, at worse, was about %20 more than what the muslims were taxed
>>59487
>>61514
This was actually a matter of debate amongst Muslims, from what I know. Now, the Q'uran, chronogically, begins with 'Read'. Gabriel tells Muhammad to read, to which he replies he doesn't know how to do. He was a 40 year old trader at the time - it's kinda weird that he wouldn't know how to read. If we take 'read' as acknowledge, though (some scholars where I live say that it's not literally reading, but being able to 'read the world'), then it's normal that Muhammad wouldn't be able to 'read the world'.
>>60851
I wouldn't say they were were leaders as much as they were the inheritors of knowledge that was translated into Arabic.
The Greeks were leaders. The Egyptians were leaders.
[spoiler]khawarij[/spoiler]
>>61508
I don't know what you're trying to prove. Islam didn't expand just to get rich.
>>61546
He wasn't illiterate. It's a modern myth invented by Muslims to make Muhammad seem more special.
The Qur'an only once mentions him in a way that could be conceived as illiterate, but it does not say this. It says that Muhammad is a person "Not of the book". This means Gentile, none Jew, and it's in a section about the previous religions.
This lines meaning has been twisted to apparently mean illiterate when it makes no sense from an Arabic view point or just a logical one in the sentence.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/was%20the%20prophet%20muhammad%20really%20illiterate%20FM3.htm
Modern Islam is extremely corrupted, Muslims borderline worship Muhammad, The Hajj is basically a Pagan ritual (kissing a stone sacred to Arabic polytheism wtf) their Imams are infallible beacons of knowledge, and they immediately denounce anyone as not Muslim if they disagree with them. They spend more time fighting each other than anyone else.
>>56681
Why are there so many sunnis? How can being the murderers of Muhammeds family be considered acceptable? If it was christian they would of been put to the torch for their sins against the lord.
