Let's talk about ships.
Galleys, tall ships, steamers, WWII destroyers, those silly hide-and-wood bowl things some Native Americans made, it doesn't matter.
What's your favorite ship?
I think I'd have to go with Baltimore clippers. All the beauty of a tall ship with all the speed the technology and size can allow.
>>56529
Which native american culture had the most advanced ships?
>>57910
I'm sure some got pretty good at canoe building.
>>56529
i hate galleys
Why is naval combat historically so uninteresting
I would have made a good roman, I think infantry is the shit, cavalry has very limited roles, and navies are useless and not worth focusing on
You cant talk about ships without bringing up these bad boys.
>>57910
Hawaiians, natch.
>>56529
Okay, someone needs to make a webm of that scene, and a few others in M&C.
Has anyone ever read Wooden World by Nicholas Rodger or have a link to a PDF?
>>58456
Hawaiians aren't native americans.
What is a "heart of tar?"
>>58497
I'm just gonna go through and pick what seems best.
Friedrich Wilhelm Zu Pferde.
Flagship of the Brandenburg Navy.
Its captain was killed on-board in an ambush.
The fleeting beginning and end of German naval tradition, until well into the 19th century.
Quite pretty with a neat history.
>>59460
Them sails tho
>>59482
Just try to ignore them.
That's just how they did things back then.
>>58417
Just because you think naval combat is boring doesn't mean navies aren't very important.
>>59567
Here's an updated version of OP gif
>>57910
Probably PNW cultures like the Haida and Coast Salish.
>>56529
>What's your favorite ship?
Medieval/early 1500's Galleys. Thanks to Anglo POV of Medieval popular history, Medieval ships talks of Vikings and Cogs as pinnacles of Naval Tech at the period.
But really, a real naval warship in the Medieval Ages was the fucking galley. Unlike Cogs or Viking Boats its useless for anything but war.
>>58417
Because the sea is flat. Infantry can hide, be broken, and stand in suicidal displays of badassitude. Tanks can suddenly pierce mountain passes and artillery can be towed to the front for point-blank annihilation but only because of geography.
Aside from rocks and mist, the sea is 2D-get-in-the-best-range-fest
>>59705
And also the Chinese Chuan (Junk) of the 700's-1400's. Just because how advanced it was for the time.
>Rudder
>Sealed bulkhead holds.
>Cunt with a compass.
>>59655
Cut out that half-second of Russell's face.
>>59705
Hell yeah.
The Vasa
>>59747
Really need to stop accidentally overwriting these as I make them.
>>58417
>can send naval aviation across the world
>can serve as a refuel/rearm station
>can transport military units or supplies overseas
>can send payloads over land for surface borne targets.
The Navy has many uses but in the end all military branches are useful.
>>56529
Best ship coming through
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_of_the_Glorioso
>>59851
>>56529
>What's your favorite ship?
The French 74-gun ship of the line Redoutable for its action at Trafalgar.
Despite being outgunned and dwarfed by the 100-gun flagship HMS Victory it fought tooth and nail in a close battle with it. The two ships became entangled, grappling irons were thrown and Nelson was fatally wounded by a shot from the Redoutable's mizzen top before it was brought crashing down. The crew was ready to bring the fight onboard Victory when the three decker 98-gun HMS Temeraire raked her with grapeshot at point blank range. But still she fought on, only striking her colours when in clear danger of sinking. Of all the ships at Trafalgar, Redoutable sustained the highest casualties.
>>59745
Junks are my shipfus
They got fucking massive too
Carried the Chinese all the way to Africa
>an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age
>>60379
I dunno, a floating runway that has sleek planes to do its bidding seems more elegant than the continuation of the LET'S MAKE IT REALLY BIG SO WE CAN PUT THE BIGGEST GUNS WE CAN ON IT FUCK YEAH
Doesn't even have the legitimate elegance of wood ships.
>>60413
When and where did they fight?
Europeans, by the time they would have found their way over to China, had been beating the shit out of each other on the seas for long enough to figure it out pretty well.
>>60413
By the time the West and East squared off in naval warfare the former were way ahead of the game with ironclads while the latter had stayed about the same owning to extreme isolationism.
>>59983
why do they get all grey and gloomy and shit with every historical movie?
>>60447
>legitimate elegance
>that's just like, your opinion, man
>>60462
I know this was definitely the case with Japan, but we were trading with China extensively from the 17th century onwards.
And by "we" I mean mainly the Dutch. Caused a weird amalgamic trend in ceramic culture. This is the "kraak" style of china, made and named specifically for the Dutch trade ships that took them to the West (carracks)
>>60476
They're near the southern tip of South America, which has super shit weather.
Also a foggy battle is more dramatic and suspenseful than a totally clear day.
>>60413
The same way China got BTFO in every other field. Even though they were advanced for medieval and renaissance societies, the Chinese are a very stubborn people who find what works and refuse to change after they find it. So when the junks proved perfectly good for coastal sailing and pretty good for ocean voyages, they stopped doing anything to improve them like finding new sail plans or making bigger junks just to make bigger junks.
>>60524
Think of it this way. Did China care at all about naval superiority? No, because pirates were never a big threat to their coastlines and the few merchants who sailed beyond them, and there were no naval rivals that dared challenge them. All their enemies were to the north and west for the longest time.
>>60520
It totally is.
The Novgorod is the ultimate in naval elegance though. There is no disputing this.
>>60476
Life on a man-o-war was pretty much grey and gloomy, if you weren't diseased or malnourished you were bored out of your skull and slowly going insane from the routine, harsh discipline, shitty pay, endless months at sea...
The IOWA class battleship's is clearly the greatest ships ever constructed.
The Genoese Galleys were awesome because they completly changed the nature of naval warfare.
Medieval naval warfare was completly uninteresting. The fight always happened near the shores because no one had any instruments to navigate, and the fight was the same as land warfare, but with ships : There were screens of crossbowmen, and then they charged through each other and the sailors cut themselves with daggers.
But the Genoese Galley was made by theses italians fucks who spent their lives at sea. What was different ? The battering ram was just above the water, so it was just like a little ladder to board ennemies. Futhermore, the sails were improved, the oars were all perfectly equilibrated (And there were 3 oarsmen, not 2 in other galleys). And because they were genoese, each and everyone of the crew was a marksman with the crossbow.
The Genoese Galley became the standard ship for every other medieval navy.
>>60572
>My ship can sail sideways
hmsbarham.webm
>>60584
Too bad they were largely useless outside the Med and coastal waters, if anything they contributed to naval technology stagnating longer than it should've.
>>56529
Man 'o' Wars & Ships of the Line.
Just the crazy amount of firepower gives me a throbbing erection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNQUeeF6hso
>>60584
How do you think these would fare against diadochi galleys
>>60413
>>60527
>How did the junks get btfo by europoor ships, iorcs they also had gunpowder weapons and were more seaworthy than their contemporaroes
Europoor ships of the 1500's-1600's? They weren't "btfo"
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tunmen
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Xicaowan
This is pretty unfair but I'm throwing this in
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Zeelandia
Those were the only battles between the Imperial Chinese navy and European ones. Chinks came up on top versus two of the great European naval powers of the time: Early 1500's Portuguese and 1600's Dutch.
Not to mention of the 3 East Asian navies, the Spics in the Philippines only took the Chinese one seriously. Though usually its the only one with guns (Korea had too but it was pretty brown water).
And the 1500's-1600's is the period of the decline of Imperial Chinese navy. Lookythat,
>>59413
I liked that in this film they didn't do the usual cliche of "suddenly" seeing a ship with a telescope that's actually right next to them in clear weather. People underestimate how far you can see when in open, er, sea.
>>60413
>>60719
Oh yes, and Ming China actually got the technology of Breech Loading Cannon from defeated Portuguese ships. They were pretty amazed by it since native Chinese cannon was muzzle loading and the Chinks subsequently made all their cannons breech loaders, including the large field pieces.
It was called the Folangqi Cannon. Folangqi coming from the arabic "Ferenggi" meaning "Franks" the appellation for all western europeans.
>>59826
le wobbly vessel of bad ship architecture
>>60783
This is what we look like to chinks.
I've always loved Junks. They're sleek, unique and make Europe reek. I just love how they look like DRAGONS, and their amazing uses in modern days. Hope you like them too!
>>60649
Was that show good?
>>60802
Just the Portuguese.
The Dutch were called "Hongmaofan" (Red-haired barbarians). An appellation used to be applied to Indo-Iranian Horse Nomads. Also the Chinese saw red hair as disgusting back then.
Chinks bought cannons from those guys. Also they liked them better than Portugal or Spain because they weren't peddling a religion around. Same as in Japan.
>>60819
It's a bit slow in the first season. Pickups up at the end. Second season is GOAT.
>>60833
Is it accurate or is it just nonsense?
>>60642
>He doesn't know about the Swedish war galleys who sank Napoleon's Baltic fleet
>He doesn't know about Tripolitanian war galleys who caused America to launch it's first Iraq war in Libya
>>60783
So why were we still using muzzle-loaded cannon into the 19th century?
>>61174
Presumably people were good with them
>>61174
Muzzle loaders can withstand higher charges/calibers.
East Asians...just really liked the idea of not stacking shit in the muzzle anymore. Even big Chinese & Japanese guns were all breach loaders, which led to accidents sometimes.
Also not really, the latter half of the 19th, it was all breech.
>>58453
Post a real one at least.
>>59705
Actually Carracks were the pinnacles of Naval tech for quite a while and galleys were pretty much hopeless taking on those until the use of naval artillery.
>>60544
>No, because pirates were never a big threat to their coastlines
Correct me if I am wrong but for half a century the Chinese coast was a waist land due to Wako attacks wasn't it?
>>60838
Fairly accurate. The pirates vote for their captain, the ships are subject to the laws of physics, it's emphasized that the Pirates have to find a place to sell their captured cargo, and in the show that's mostly Nassau. The relationships between some of the characters are true to life. Jack Rackham and Anne Bonny for instance. I don't think Mary Read has been introduced yet, but I'm sure she'll show up next season.
There's a bunch of fictional characters too, as it's a Treasure Island prequel. But the actual setting and all of the associated fluff is pretty solid.
Didn't see one, so here's a Trireme
I believe this is the Mary Rose, notice the extremely high Fore and Aft castle. At this point they hadn't really figured out gunports cut in the hull so they just stacked them in those castles.
Most of those guns would be breech-loading swivel guns.
>>63049
More carracks.
These were also the warships the Portuguese used to absolutely BTFO The Mamluk, Italian and Indian fleet.
>>63124
>>63049
Those are Portuguese flags.
>>63144
Then it's probably part of the Indian Armada but I can't check it now.
>>63155
>>62768
Compare the height advantage of the Cog with the Viking ship and you'll see why the former replaced the later.
so fucking hot
>firepower
>agile
>well protected
fuck the eternal anglo for sinking these beauties
>>60544
>Did China care at all about naval superiority? No
Yes
>because pirates were never a big threat to their coastlines and the few merchants who sailed beyond them
They were. They so fucking were. Ergo they were really fucking worried about establishing naval supremacy.
>There were no naval rivals that dared challenge them. All their enemies were to the north and west for the longest time.
Pretty much. But Pirates were more horrible than other Asian Navies. Largely because those pirates are Chinese themselves, especially in the 1500's.
There was a time when Japanese were the pirates but, being a navally backwards people, those were wiped out by the beginning of the 1400's and latter Jap pirates were absorbed in Chinese pirate fleets.
You could argue that, from the BCs to 1800's, the Maritime history of East Asia is a Chinese history.
>>59982
Didn't the Spanish have a ship of the line with a 100 guns?
Pre-dreadnoughts were pretty cool.
>>60379
The Yamato was a colossal waste that achieved literally nothing.
