Can someone explain the HRE for me? How did they manage to be the geographically largest kingdom/empire in medieval europe, yet fail to really do anything? I mean of all that I've read about them, it seems to be a giant mess of internal squabbles and other petty bullshit
>>562816
>Holy
>Roman
>Empire
>>562816
Nobles had too much power compared to the emperor, so it totally failed to centralize in any way whatsoever.
>>562819
>Nobles had too much power compared to the emperor
elaborate
>>562821
Nobles were freely able to wage war with each other, conduct their own internal affairs largely uninfringed, had very little obligations to the emperor in terms of taxes and soldiers and so more or less acted like their own countries rather than constituent lords of an empire.
you are thinking of it as a unified entity, as for example the roman empire or the french kingdom
it was not (for most of its existence barring early years)
it was more like a federation, a set of bureaucratic and traditional tools loosely unifying various realms with various agendas
Charles V dun goofed.
>>562826
A European Union comparison would not be totally out of place really. You have the individual countries competing, but there is an underlying (or overarching?) set of laws, regulations, ways of doing things etc.
>>562816
Few emperors had any real power. It looks big on a map, but that's because most people only have knowledge and understanding of modern nations that are completely unified. The HRE consistent of dozens of entities, free cities, dukes, barons and so on. They didn't pool their manpower and taxes like a modern nation would, so being the biggest player around didn't matter much because all the nobles and landowners didn't share their allegiance and goals.
Imagine if every US state was more or less independent - there's a president but he has no real power because each state more or less rivals the POTUS in power. All states go about their own business, Ohio gets picked apart by Canada and receives no help from the Duke of Texas because he doesn't give a shit.
>>562882
>their own currency
Mint coins with their face on, maybe? An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold
>>562911
Yeah but my point is that a lot of the liberties that you're saying the HRE allowed its nobles, the French kingdom also allowed its nobles
>>562882
Yes. Medieval France used to be a huge clusterfuck and the King had less power than his vassals.
But France improved. It started with Philip Augustus (Who deserve his nickname) making his demesne bigger, then Saint-Louis becoming a judge in the feudal matters, Philip IV creating the Estate Generals, etc... Until the end of the Hundred Years War, where the King of France had a standing army of his own, definitly becoming THE power in France.
The HRE never improved. It continued to be ridden with petty lords fighting each other for shit.
>>562833
Not even, the EU is much more centralized than the HRE ever was.
>>562882
The difference is France eventually took those liberties away.
Recommend me some good books on the HRE
How did Bohemia become part of the HRE? They weren't even Germans
>>562991
Neither were the Italians and arguably the Dutch/Walloons.
>>562816
It's complicated, since you need to know pretty much 500 years of history, it's disintegration was a slow matter.
If you want to look for topics read about:
>The Investiture Controversy
>The Lombard League
>The civil war between Philip of Swabia and Otto of Saxony.
>The reign of Frederick II
>The Great Interregnum
>The Rise of the Habsburgs
>The Golden Bull
>>562991
internal conflict as well as clashes with poland made the position of one of their dukes (jaromir) precarious, so he turned to the german king (henry) for support and incorporation into the empire
>>562991
Being 'german' wasn't a requirement to being a part of the HRE, since they had no concept of ethnic identities back then. They had French, German, Dutch, Italian, Czech, Polish speakers etc
Daily reminder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ztOV2wrrkY
>>563060
>Kingdom of Holland
This triggers me errytiem.
>>563060
>Look mom i posted it again
>>562958
Bump this
>>562911
>forgetting purity
>forgetting reputation
Gold coins are not made of pure 24k gold, their value fluctuated based on gold purity and the kingdom's reputation for keeping the purity constant.
>>562958
Bumping this. Partcularly about their early military and use of mercs.
>>563064
>This triggers me errytiem.
Can't watch the video, are you triggered because they misnamed the kingdom of the Netherlands or because napoleonic kingdoms like Holland trigger you in general?
>>562946
This. At least the EU countries don't wage war against one another.
>>563064
It triggers me that East Frisia doesn't belong to the Netherlands anymore
The HRE used to be very powerful. Their disadvantage is that unlike the Capets, plenty of Emperors died without adult male heirs, which ended changing the dynasty too often.
Frederick II (at the time, the strongest monarch in all of Europe) messed up, as well.
>>562958
try this, best I could find that fast
http://legacy.fordham.edu/Halsall/sbook1h.asp
>>562937
>centralization = improving
Take a look at this bootlicker, I suppose he is a commie too.
The thing is, for it's whole existance (except when it was sacked by foreign armies during the 30 years war, of course), the HRE was the richest, most prosperous, most cultured part of Europe. Modern intellectuals hate it because it was a traditional state based on custom, instead of a modern nation state based on bullshit laws that intellectuals get out of their asses so they can rule a country as "specialists" and "bureaucrats".
>>563322
Not really.
It stopped being the most cultured part of Europe after the investiture controversy.
It stopped being the richest after Italy and Flanders left the empire.
Meaning that it wasn't either for more than 2/3 of its existence.
>>563322
This is wrong. Italy and Flanders were the richest part of Europe. Culturally, bith France and Italy had way more importance than the HRE. The fact is the HRE was weak. Or at least it became weak. It had a few powerful emperor in the middle ages, but after that the strenght of the habsburg emperor lied in their own personal lands, not in the HRE itself. The prostetant princes always betrayed the emperor, first by offering Verdun, Toul and Metz to the french. How weaker can you get ?
>>563137
For Now :^)
>>563322
you sound like a 12 year old
>>562821
Play Crusader Kings 2, that should straighten you out.
>>563322
This.
The HRE is mostly hated by SJWs and fedora tippers from /reddit/.
>>564521
>The HRE is mostly hated by SJWs and fedora tippers
How comes?
>>563886
Yeah, pretty much this. CK2 clarified fuckton of historical stuff for me.
>>564569
because it wasnt a nanny state and thus wasnt as centralized which is reddit's way of determining how advanced a political entity is
>>563726
Northern Italy was part of the HRE.
>>565666
As was Flanders.
>>565703
In the times of Charles V, both were even the lands of the Emperor.
>>565703
Flanders wasn't part of the Empire until Charles V, and remained part of it until the French Revolution.
>>565666
Well but not really. Venice and all venetian land were not HRE, and by the 15th century that was half northern Italy. Savoy and Lombardy were part de jure, but not de facto, since Savoy was basically independent or french aligned from the duchy onward, and Lombardy aside from the french spell was really Habsburgian rather than imperial. Tuscany was independent since the 13th century, and Romagna was Papal. So really what's left? Mantova and some scraps, that were ruled by mostly autonomous and self appointed imperial vicars? Big whoop.
>>565305
>things I made up today
>>562991
as far as i understand, the "german" culture was more like everything derved from the franks so northen italian, flemish, and everything east before the slavs was considered "german", even french
>>566096
German culture started out as every barbarian kingdom north of the Alps, then after east and west frankia separated and formed distinguished cultures, it meant eastern frankish culture. Italy was always a separate thing, whereas flanders was a border area between french and german culture.
>>566096
Eastern Europe was heavily colonized by German settlers in the Middle Ages (often on behalf of Slavic kings). The first German university was founded in Prague for example, which had a predominantly German population until the mid 19th century.
There was even a German upper class in Northern Italy until the 10th century. Many German myths derive from the age of early proto-German in kingdoms in Italy.
>>562821
dozens of vassals were their own little kings waging war against other vassals
imagine a bunch of little civil wars and the king/kaiser has no power over it, really
>>566436
Examples? HRE was a realm of peace.
>>562816
>yet fail to really do anything?
But what measure? They didn't blob and paint the map like fucking EUIV, because that is not how the world worked. In terms of cultural, economic, religious etc accomplishments the HRE was extremely prolific. Music as we understand it today was invented and grown there.
Long ago but not forgotten...
>"""holy"""
>"'"roman"""
>"""empire"""
>>562958
Last bump for this
>>566699
There are a couple of books in the pipeline for 2016 that look quite promising. So far my knowledge of the HRE is only based of German sources.
Ones to watch:
http://www.amazon.de/Holy-Roman-Empire-Peter-Wilson/dp/1846143187/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453000871&sr=8-1&keywords=holy+roman+empire
>>562830
dat jaw
>>566096
>so northen italian, flemish, and everything east before the slavs was considered "german", even french
Haha absolutely not stop posting you fucking retard jesus christ.
>>566745
German sources would be ok too because I understand german
>>562991
>the HRE was Germany
EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.
>>562818
Le mememan
>>568263
The HRE did entail what we know today as Germany.
>the HRE was Germany
>EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.
No, ever single thread it's
>Germany was the HRE
Which is correct. The history of Germany is entailed in the history of the Holy Roman Empire. The states of the region that we today know as Germany were, in the HRE, the primary governing body. The electoral estates were all German states.
>>568286
That was not what I was complaining about, it is plainly obvious that Germany (in a regional sense) was a part of the HRE. My problem is with people that think the HRE as a whole was just "medieval Germany". It was not an ethnic nation-state, existed before a time when regional and dynastic affiliation was often far more important than ethnicity, and contained many countries which were powerful and significant in their own right.
>the electoral estates were all German states
Bohemia.
>>563322
>HRE was the richest, most prosperous, most cultured part of Europe.
Remove Italy, Flanders and Bohemia from it.
Suddenly it's below European average but perhaps that's because gaymanoids were in charge.
>>568412
>Remove Italy, and Bohemia from it.
>Suddenly it's European average
Fixed. France (other than Flanders) and England were not richer than Germany.
>>568412
>Suddenly it's below European average
>t. Pulling statistics out of my ass
>>568433
>>568435
Gaymany was to the rest of medieval Europe what Kazakhstan is to Japan.
Why do you think Gaymans escaped everywhere else? People living in rich places don't migrate from them, quite the opposite.
Think, then shitpost.
>>568444
When did Germans migrated en masse in the middle ages?
>>568450
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung
>>568452
This is equivalent to saying 19th century America is shit because of manifest destiny.
>>568469
No, anon you're mistaking it.
Gaymans didn't went east to build things from the basics. They've settled in existing cities and villages and now some of them still think these are their cities. This is unlike colonists do - colonists build things out of scratch, massacring local population is an optional thing, but the very important thing is that they start anew. It isn't a surprise to anybody that in states like California, which were taken from Mexico and in cities like San Francisco which again - even by the way it's called - was something Americans took over in the long run rather than building it, you can find the most vile, treacherous subhumans you can imagine.
A good warning for you gaymans - the immigrants you're letting in will do the same. I hope you'll respect Turkish right to own Berlin and Syrian right to own Koln because it won't take long until they'll be able to request ownership over them.
t. Australian.
>>568497
Have you made your obligatory immigrant's blowjob today?
Did your girlfriend helped those 4 beefy Syrians to assimilate already?
Why not? You're gayman after all, not some kind of animal like aussies. You should do it.
>>568506
You don't speak English well enough to pose as an Aussie, faggot. I can just tell that you're some butthurt pole or something. Do everyone a favor and kick a stool
>>566648
Says the guy whose prefered model of state was applied during the Jacobin period of the French Revolution, last a few months and it was so terrible that it managed to revive French Catholicism as a result.
>>565305
What is ironic is that SJWs claim to love diversity, but hate the most diverse state that ever existed in Europe.
>>568560
>HRE
>state
>>568578
>any medieval political entity
>state
Ebin XD lol see I can do it too. Upvoted:DDD
>>568560
>SJWs hate the HRE
I'd be surprised if any of them had ever heard of it
>>568311
>Bohemia.
Had de jure, not de facto influence.
>>568560
Yep, I'm sure if I go on Tumblr and Twitter right now I'll see dozens of enraged anti-Holy Roman Empire content created by fat girls with problem glasses and dyed hair. What the actual hell are you talking about?
>>563322
The best thing Napoleon ever did was end that shitcan of a pseudo-state.
>>568616
>>568286
>The electoral estates were all German states
bohemia was not
>>568560
>Czech borders the same for 124876543 centuries
fuggen mountains man
>>568433
France was a lot more populated than Germany in the middle ages. Paris was the biggest city in Europe at that time, and had the most important university. Gothic architecture, was born in France, and crusaders were mostly french. The french king was, most of the time, more powerful than the emperor.
>>568813
It's like a giant castle. Yyou just can't conquer half of it and expect it will last.
>>568545
>Says the guy whose prefered model of state was applied during the Jacobin period of the French Revolution
Voltaire never wanted that kind of state, he prefered Enlightened Absolutely with king as head of the state, he thought the commoners are too stupid to give them much power.
>>568808
Bohemia was a de jure, not de facto, electoral state.
cumdump
Bohemia was as German as Great Britain English. The entire upper class was of German decent, which eventually would lead to the Hussite Wars, a kind of Czech nationalist outrage.
>>572128
I advise caution there, mate.
You would be absolutely right that in the culture and nobility of the Czech lands, German influence was strong. But you have an arguably stronger slav influence amongst the actual people living there, as the Germans didn't tend to assimilate all that much otherwise.
>>563322
What a waste of dubs.
>>566443
>realm of peace
>>572229
>Can you please actually explain what you mean instead of repeating this ad nauseum?
Why are you on this board if you don't know what those basic phrases mean?
It means that their status in the HRE was largely honorific, and that they were otherwise, at least up until being passed to the Habsburgs, relatively autonomous and not particularly involved with electoral or political matters of the HRE.
>>572230
Yes, 30 Years out of nearly 1000.
It was a realm of peace for the majority of its existence.
I guess the Kingdom of France wasn't a peaceful realm either since one of the wars went for 100 years whoa dude lmao.
>>572242
>You should at least know something about history before you decide to post here.
Yeah okay bud, give me one period of internal unrest as lengthy and devastating to the Holy Roman Empire as the Protestant Reformation. The closest thing is its dissolution 200 years later. You'll find that its existence prior to the Peasants War was quite peaceful, especially after early consolidation. Minor feuding and small wars of succession are all that really occurred within its borders otherwise. Habsburg-Swiss conflicts were largely contained. Italian city states were probably the least peaceful part of its Medieval history, and that's more important to Italian history and a footnote to the HRE. Compared to its neighbors getting ravaged or raided by steppe hordes, Muscovites, and the Ottomans; until the Protestant Reformation actually ramped up in the 16th century, it was a fairly peaceful place.
>So was the role of the emperor and even the empire itself, what is your point?
That even compared to the emperor, that Bohemian status within the Empire was more honorific.
Real electoral estates and the emperor could actually effect change in their collectively controlled regions.
Bohemia wasn't an estate involved in this process, Diets were for the other electoral states and the emperor to decide on matters.
>>572225
Every major city was mainly German inhabited. It was probably more German than parts of modern Germany.
>>572263
>Every major city was mainly German inhabited.
>was
Care to show those historical demographics then?
Because Germans are still completely outnumbered by Czechs today, and all I've read are historians referring to an otherwise vast majority Czech population.
>>563726
>Flanders
>not part of HRE
Wew lad
>>572263
>Every major city was mainly German inhabited.
No that's just bullshit. There was a German linguistic presence everywhere in the cities, but all non German speaking areas still mainly spoke their native language. There was no concept of ethnicity back then either
>>572128
>German descent
That's just bullshit
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%99emyslid_dynasty
>>572273
Well, Germans were displaced after WWII. Prague was seat of the emperor, even the first German university was founded in Bohemia. In the 19th century, Kafka wrote in German - because the city was predominantly German for over 500 years. We know that because, apart from all the works of art and architecture from German masters, the records in church books are giving us very detailed records of the population back then.
>>572128
Was this meant to be ironic? Because the whole aristocracy in medieval England was french, dumbass
>>572317
I'm not even talking about the nobility.
>>572313
Right, apart the fact the German knights called themselfs TEUTONIC (=Deutsch)ORDER. Yeah, totally no ethnic awareness.
>>572318
Well, those are all great clues, but in no way do they prove the claim that
>Every major city was mainly German inhabited.
>>572327
Well, the fact they all had German names at that time is another clue. On the other hand, to argue they had a Czech majority - a people that couldn't write in their own language until the 15th century - is going to be quite difficult.
Anyway, offical records may be useful. Too bad it's already quite late in Australia...
>>572331
>Well, the fact they all had German names at that time is another clue.
A clue easily explained by simple expository facts, like for example the names of Bohemiam castles, and the towns which derived their name from them, were given by German masons, and do not denote a majority German population.
>>572324
The Teutonic order was a separate entity from the HRE, and it was a diverse multinational organization not unlike the knights Templar. They mostly had Germans and poles, but there were members from all over central and eastern europe. You should really read into this stuff before spouting your own ethnonational bullshit, because people back then didn't give a fuck about it the same way they do now
>>566602
>WE
>WUZ
>CATHEDRALS
>N'
>SHIT
HRE wasn't the only medieval empire/kingdom to build cathedrals. Sorry mate but it was pretty useless empire.
>>572341
Go back to /int/
>>572339
It was exclusively German. It was named after Germans. Teutons=Germans
It's like saying the Polish Order was multinational. The kingdom of Poland was in fact the major enemy of the Order. And the ethnic origin of someone in a world of nobles and kings was probably the single most important issue in life. You're welcome.
>>572349
Did I trigger a HREboo?
HRE was such a waste of an empire. I wish it would always be in the state of interregnum, at least that was interesting, and let pic related to happen.
Otokar II Premysl did nothing wrong.
>>572338
That's not even up for debate. It's like saying Berlin wasn't a German city in the 1930ies. We have very precise records of the population in Europe.
>>572355
No, its just that you have nothing intelligent or meaningful to say, so you should take your memes and fuck off back to your containment hole
>>572355
>Did I trigger a HREboo?
>HRE was such a waste of an empire
So you're here purely to shitpost about something you don't like?
Cool man, you seem like a smart guy.
>>572357
I don't see how what you're saying is relevant to what I said.
>>572355
>Otokar II Premysl did nothing wrong.
Clearly didn't do much right either.
>>572357
>precise records
>regarding ethnicity
>middle ages
You clearly don't know what you're talking about
>>572367
Surnames are. After all, they haven't changed for centuries.
>>572353
I can just tell you're some assblasted pole that refuses to believe anything other than 'le polish ubermensch destroyed the German scum at grunwald: DDD'. But that's not how history works. You can't apply your ethnic circlejerk to the middle ages, because it didn't exist. They were called 'Teutonic' order because they were founded by Germans in the holy Land. From that point it became a multinational crusading order just like every other crusading order. But hey you can believe whatever nationalist drivel you want, Pyotr, doesn't change the facts
>>572370
There is no such thing as comprehensive records of medieval populations. At best they would record the names of some nobles..
>>566745
>you know a lot of those were built long after the HRE was dead and buried, right?
Hell, a lot of them are just enlightenment era manors
>>572374
It's true that German mercenaries helped to defeat the Teutonic Order at Grunewald. However only German nobleman and citizens of German cities were allowed to become knights.
>>572377
Oh, you'd be surprised. The church can provide very detailed records of every soul born, christened and buried. The main tool in genealogy btw
>>572382
Not a single one, sry.
>>572407
>However only German nobleman and citizens of German cities were allowed to become knights
Provide a source. I've read a book on the subject that says otherwise
>>572407
>Oh, you'd be surprised. The church can provide very detailed records of every soul born, christened and buried. The main tool in genealogy btw
Do you have any actual source to prove that all of the HRE was germanized and the main cities colonized by Germans?
>>572414
You show me a Polish Teutonic Knight (lol) and I'll dig a little bit deeper. Deal?
Although there are probably no sources prohibiting women from membership. So female knights... must have been a thing.
>>572382
>Hell, a lot of them are just enlightenment era manors
Some look it.
A lot look baroque and renaissance too, to be fair.
>>572419
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying 1/3 of Medieval Bohemia was German.
Typical story:
>The town began in 1142 with the settlement of the first Cistercian monastery in Bohemia, Sedlec Monastery, brought from the Imperial immediate Cistercian Waldsassen Abbey. By 1260 German miners began to mine for silver in the mountain region, which they named Kuttenberg, and which was part of the monastery property.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutná_Hora
>>572435
kutna hora is not a particularly great example, the region is straight in the middle of bohemia and there were plenty of smaller villages or townships present in the area before the establishment of the monastery - and the population influx during the silver rush was hardly a solely german affair either, as the likes of caslav and kolin had mining operations going on for decades by then
you are however correct in that german people were a sizeable chunk of medieval bohemian population, indeed they had been invited to settle, mostly in the sparsely populated border regions, by czech rulers on several occasions
>>562882
The french king had a hard time becoming more unified too. Gonna dump some maps that make it more clear.
>>572477
>>562818
I wonder what Voltaire would think of the fact that he is remembered for a slightly humorous quote repeated ad nauseam by autists on the history section of an Estonian Accountancy Forum.
>>572480
Notice how Philippe Auguste needed to use violence in order to achieve this not so big amount of land.
Notice too how, during the 100 years war, the king had again lost direct control over most of France. Had the english won that war, maybe we would have threads asking why the kingdom of France was such a clusterfuck.
>>568560
Are you people trying to apply 21st century ideology to the fucking HRE?
Is this how revisionism works?
>>572427
You realize that the Teutonic order only used only German and Latin for administrative purposes? They wouldn't have recorded actual names of polish/czech/whatever Slavic knights in a Slavic language, they would've germanized the name. So no, I can't give you actual Slavic names of knights who were in there, but they did exist, the same way there were English Templar knights or spanish hospitallers, because crusading orders were multinational
>>574690
No, you are making that up. They didn't even used to speak Latin, it's not like they were priests or even real monks. You know, language was a big issue back than. Those brotherhoods had distinctive origins and served solely their fellow countrymen.
The whole idea of the Medieval world was that your destiny was predetermined at birth. You were either born or nobleman or a peasant. As a result one's ancestry was extremely important. This applies to city culture as well, like guilds and noble citizens.
>>576445
Did you not see how I specified for 'administrative' purposes? Learn to read
