How were soldiers disciplined in Rome?
>>562804
With anal sex
>>562811
Positive reinforcement then :^)
>>562804
They were decimated.
>>562804
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_military_decorations_and_punishments#Punishments
Executions for everything.
>>562804
EQVITES CONSVLARES
>>562804
Latin people had a good temperament for army life, simple as that. They were superstitious, so they were less likely to give up on their aquilifer, they were civilized, so they wouldn't go seeking glory or scream and yell like idiots when given commands.
They also had a structure were everyone kept each other in check, small scale leaders taking order from slightly bigger leaders and so on, learned people teaching the less learned in their group, high literacy and understanding of signals is important.
I'm sure there's more to it, though.
>>562921
>cato ninetails
>>562860
How in the fuck would one win the Grass Crown? The actions of a SINGLE man must save the entire legion or army, I mean, what can you even do to pull out such a fantastic battle display.
>>562995
be a commander.
>>562995
Don't take it so literally.
Flamma won one by pulling a Termopylae during the first punic war.
Sertorius won one by retrieving vital intelligence.
Dentatus won one by winning a single combat duel that decided a war.
It's just the roman version of a top level decoration.
>>562804
with Order!
>>562804
Rewards like land, you're going to work harder when you stand to gain something better than just a bit of rape and looting
>>563024
I think Sulla got one, too.
>>562804
Titus Pullo is a hero of the Thirteenth Legion, but look at him now! Justice knows every man's number. He has committed a terrible sacrilege, and he will pay for it with his life!
>>563024
damn, i just searched who flamma was
what a badass
>>562804
Slightly unrelated but funny note: Before the Marian reforms the Roman army was levied during a few months per year with all the soldiers being required to supply their own gear. The lion share was drawn from the rural farmers. In effect the Roman army that beat Hannibal, Pyrrus and Macedon was an army of peasant levies.
>>565026
military duty was ingrained in Romans since early age. Most Romans were trained enough to be considered professional soldiers, the bulk of their army being the Hastatii, which had semi-standarized gear.
levies and velites were commonly skirmishers that served to thin out the enemy before the main engagement, they were not as numerous and not as important as you claim.
>>563190
Pretty sure that was a later initiative to avoid all the capite censi going back to being useless after wars
>>565049
See this is exactly what I wanted to illustrate. People have no idea or at least no consensus what peasant, levy or professional means.
The velites were levied from the same population and served a similair term as the other richer people yet somehow you claim they are not professional?
>>565093
it was a wealth thing. Velites were the poorest of the poor who likely had no patrimony, Hastatii were young men who were still under their fathers' wealth, Principes were most often middle aged men who had already amassed their own fortune and experience, Triarii were richer even, etc.
>>565093
Velites were recluted from poorer peoples.
>>565026
The Armies of Etruria, of the Samnites, most greek armies and the core of the carthagian army were part-time soldiers aswell it's nothing new in the ancient world
>>565108
>>565129
I know this and I am not attacking you or anything but I find it curios that two levied people are not considered equal as both being levied because one has slightly crappier gear.
Anyways I think I am going to create a thread on this for future reference, it would make discussing professional vs. militia or peasant levy a lot easier if people agree on the terms used.
>>565093
The Camillan era army was based on wealth, with velites being the poorest, and triarii being the richest. The Polybian era army was based on experience, with the velites being the least experienced, and triarii being the most experienced. I'm not 100% sure on this though, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
>>565181
>but I find it curios that two levied people are not considered equal as both being levied because one has slightly crappier gear.
since they couldn't afford gear like shields, a plate or a proper sword they couldn't fight with the main formation of soldiers, it's not that complicated.
>>565189
I'll create a new thread now to explain what I mean.
Yes.
>>565181
The average person will never put himself on the same level as someone poorer than him. That's basically it.
>>565026
Peasant levies in the sense the german barbarian armies were peasant levies.
Meaning people born into a warrior culture where a father was expected to teach his sons about combat and discipline as part of his basic education.
Nothing in common with the modern stereotype of levies, the middle ages farmers with pitchforks used as distraction and meatshield without any proper equipment nor any training. The romans were necessarily well equipped, simply because if you didn't have money for the gear, you couldn't enter the army.
>>565182
You are forgetting the equites
>>565260
To add to this, people wanted to join. The average man wanted to fight for his lord, city, or state. And they were expected to pay for their own equipment, which is why levy armies are always divided by wealth. It's not like the modern conception of a lord arriving in a village and conscripting all the peasants against their will.
>>565289
>It's not like the modern conception of a lord arriving in a village and conscripting all the peasants against their will.
It was at some points during the empire tho, it must be said.
>>562995
P. Decius Mus at the battle Saticula during the First Samnite War.
>Livy writes that Cornelius then advanced from Saticula and led his army by a mountain pass which descended into a narrow valley. Unnoticed by the consul the Samnites had occupied the surrounding heights and were waiting for the Roman army to descend into the valley. When the Romans finally discovered the enemy it was too late to retreat.Publius Decius Mus, a Roman military tribune, observed that the Samnites had failed to occupy a hilltop overlooking the Samnite camp. With the consul's approval he led a detachment made up of the hastati and principes of one legion to seize the hill. The Samnites did not discover Decius until he was nearly at the summit and were then so distracted that they allowed the consul to withdraw the Roman army to more favourable ground.
The escape was something out of a comedy movie too.
The Samnites were pissed their ambush had failed and so they surrounded the hill Decius was on. When night came Decius told his men they were going to sneak past the samnites and make their way down the hill back to the lines.
As they started sneaking past sleeping Samnites, one of the Romans dropped his fucking shield on a soldier and woke him up. Decius said fuck it and decided to go out in a blaze of glory so he ordered his men to attack anything that moved. They let out a battle cry and startled the Samnites awake.
The Samnites were so confused by what was happening they thought the main Roman force was attacking so they tried to constitute their lines instead of just overwhelming Decius and his men but it became a confused mess. So Decius and his guys managed to break through the camp and make it back to Roman lines.
Cornelius Cossus is going to give him a huge speech about how awesome he his and Decius cuts him off and is like no, the Samnites are in total disarray nows the time to attack, which Cossus listened to and they marched on and defeated the Samnites.
>>565300
Yeah but that was after Rome had gotten fat and wealthy and people had gotten too accustomed to fancy living and didn't want to fight anymore.
>>565324
>19th century memes
It was because the empire was fighting defensively (meaning no loot) and the pay was total shit (we're talking before the generals started shooting it up to buy the legions' loyalty).
>>562804
spankings
>>565049
Someone has been playing total war Rome 2
>>562804
whippings for small offences, hangings for things like digging a hole without your helmet or sword on.
>>567026
And death by flogging if you fell asleep on sentry duty. Was considered one of the worst offences you could do because you put all of your comrades lives in danger.
>>563204
Naturally.
>>565026
This levy = undisciplined mob meme needs to die. Throughout history levies have generally been shown to be just as tough and effective as "professional" armies, which were sometimes just glorified mercenary forces.
>>565303
One of the most based Roman families, without a doubt. True irony that a family cognominated Mus (mouse) behaved like such lions on the field, with two men in a row sacrificing themselves in battle for their men and the Republic.
"According to Livy, as the army marched near Capua, it was given to the two consuls in mutual dreams that the army whose general pledged himself and his foemen's host to the Dii Manes and Earth, would be victorious. Upon confirmation from the haruspices the two divulged a plan to their senior officers and their army, that they may not lose heart, for they intended that whosoever's wing should falter first, should so pledge his life to the gods of the underworld and the Earth.
Once the battle was engaged, the left wing began to falter and Decius Mus called upon the Pontifex Maximus, M. Valerius, to tell him the means by which to save the army. The pontifex prescribed the required ritual acts and a prayer (for which see devotio).[2] After performing the religious ritual, the fully armored Decius Mus plunged his horse into the enemy with such supernatural vigor and violence that the awe-struck Latins soon refused to engage him, eventually bringing him down with darts. Even then, the Latins avoided his body, leaving a large space around it; and so the left wing of the Romans, once faltering, now swept into this weakness in the enemy lines. Manlius, conducting the right wing, held fast, allowing the Latins to use up their reserves, before crushing the enemy host between the renewed left and Samnite foederati at their flank, leaving only a quarter of the enemy to flee."
By decimation
>>567349
I don't believe it's confirmed but it could have been three in a row.
P. Decius Mus, grandson of the hero of the First Samnite War and son of the hero of the Third Samnite War, led the army at the battle of Asculum against Pyrrhus of Epirus.
Pyrrhus won at such high a cost he allegedly said, "One more such victory, and we are undone." and its this battle that gave rise to the term Pyrrhic victory.
Accounts differ but according to some, Decius died in battle.
>>562804
Floggings
hangings
crucifixion
decimation
depends on what they did
>>567613
They were also rewarded pretty well for acts of courage and servitude as well. Wasn't all bad.
Extra rations, share of any loot, first picks on slaves, land when they finished their service, and pay of course. Evocati didn't have to do mundane shit building roads or putting up walls.
>>567486
Yes, I read that too. I guess I should have mentioned it, but I feel that a third such sacrifice would have been well known and lauded, considering the father and grandfather's feats.
>>562804
I forgot to mention, soldiers in Rome were disciplined well :^)))
>>565026
One of the major reasons he made that reform is because it fucking WASN'T a few months. Germanic tribes and poor generalship meant that the senate removed the limits on re-enlistment, people could server 8'ish campaigns, some leaving their slaves and women to take care of their business for decades, ruining the italian infrastructure, killing almost entire generations of well-off plebian men and leaving the roman empire without any forces.
People love to hate on marius reforms, but if they weren't there there wouldn't have been a rome to ruin with it, Rome just wouldn't have had the armies they needed.
That said, they weren't "peasant farmers". they were the owners of those farms, or the more respectable farmhands with own property.
and they were raised with swordsmanship, and some of them horseriding.
>>562811
Anal sex could be punishable by death in a roman legion.
>>568700
True. Quintus Servilius Caepio, when recruiting the army that was almost entirely wiped out at Arausio, basically sent gangs of soldiers into the countryside recruiting even men who didn't fulfill the minimum property qualification for service. They got around this by forcing the man to take out a loan from Caepio for his equipment and sustenance, and if he said no they beat the shit out of him until he changed his mind.
In addition, even a limit of eight campaigns meant different things. Eight campaigns in Italian and Cisalpine Gaul, in the early to mid Republic, meant that you were home every autumn to spring. Eight campaigns in Greece or Spain or the East meant eight whole years away from home.
>>568732
Wrong. You could pound slave boipussy every day and you'd just be shunned and called a pervert by most. It was buggery between soldiers that lowered discipline and morale (according to Romans), and was punishable by death.
>>562823
Happened incredibly rarely and there were variants on the classic- you 9 guys, beat your bff to death with these rusty spoons.
>>562804
Fines, time outs and corporal punishment was common. Death and imprisonment of course. Crucially however Roman recruits were- across all the periods of Rome- working towards some goal- whether its citizenship, political advancement, pay from looting or a land and pension grate- other armies did not have this degree of formal and legally enshrined motivation.
>>565049
Hahaah, this is RTW2 knowledge isn't it?
>>562961
SIGNA CVRITE
>>568743
>Wrong. You could pound slave boipussy every day and you'd just be shunned and called a pervert by most. It was buggery between soldiers that lowered discipline and morale (according to Romans), and was punishable by death.
Right, I meant between soldiery in legions. It's easy to forget there were even more support people in a legion.
>>568743
>True. Quintus Servilius Caepio, when recruiting the army that was almost entirely wiped out at Arausio, basically sent gangs of soldiers into the countryside recruiting even men who didn't fulfill the minimum property qualification for service. They got around this by forcing the man to take out a loan from Caepio for his equipment and sustenance, and if he said no they beat the shit out of him until he changed his mind.
>In addition, even a limit of eight campaigns meant different things. Eight campaigns in Italian and Cisalpine Gaul, in the early to mid Republic, meant that you were home every autumn to spring. Eight campaigns in Greece or Spain or the East meant eight whole years away from home.
Exactly. You know your stuff anon.
>>569486
Of course. When I first got into Rome it really confused me that a century was only eighty fighting men...until I found out that there were twenty slaves and servants per century as well.
I realize now that it's easier to call the entire unit a legion/cohort/century than have to add the support separately when making supply and tactical calculations.
>>569495
Well thanks, Anon. To add more (for anybody, you seem like you know it), it was a kind of poetic justice that the same practically disenfranchised poor of the fourth and fifth classes, many of whom were descended from farmers whose lands had been seized or gone into disrepair during long years on overseas campaigns, got much of that land back at the expense of the descendants of those that benefited from the foreign wars.
>>562980
>so they wouldn't go seeking glory
This.... is actually basically all they did, and was the best tool in an officers chest.
>>562804
Josephus described it during the Judeo-Roman war:
>Now they so manage their preparatory exercises of their weapons, that not the bodies of the soldiers only, but their souls may also become stronger: they are moreover hardened for war by fear; for their laws inflict capital punishments, not only for soldiers running away from the ranks, but for slothfulness and inactivity, though it be but in a lesser degree; as are their generals more severe than their laws, for they prevent any imputation of cruelty toward those under condemnation, by the great rewards they bestow on the valiant soldiers; and the readiness of obeying their commanders is so great, that it is very ornamental in peace; but when they come to a battle, the whole army is but one body, so well coupled together are their ranks, so sudden are their turnings about, so sharp their hearing as to what orders are given them, so quick their sight of the ensigns, and so nimble are their hands when they set to work; whereby it comes to pass that what they do is done quickly, and what they suffer they bear with the greatest patience. Nor can we find any examples where they have been conquered in battle, when they came to a close fight, either by the multitude of the enemies, or by their stratagems, or by the difficulties in the places they were in; no, nor by fortune neither, for their victories have been surer to them than fortune could have granted them. In a case, therefore, where counsel still goes before action, and where, after taking the best advice, that advice is followed by so active an army, what wonder is it that Euphrates on the east, the ocean on the west, the most fertile regions of Libya on the south, and the Danube and the Rhine on the north, are the limits of this empire? One might well say that the Roman possessions are not inferior to the Romans themselves.
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/josephus-warb.asp
>>569859
Don't take him very seriously. The jew contradicts his own statements fairly often.
>obey officers to lower the chance o being crucified.
>>569894
Historians actually agree that his description of the Roman army is one of the better ones from antiquity.
they'd be like there's 12 niggas up here for the 12 down there.
>>569928
That really depends on who you ask. J.E Lendon certainly seems to feel otherwise.
>>568700
I never understood why people hated on the Marian reforms. Was it because of the resettlement issue?
>>569836
They couldn't let the banner fall, that's one of the tools to keep them in formation, I should have phrased it more like.. it kept them together in a unit rather than scattering to go 1-man-army
>>571838
Because it put power in the Capite Censi, the lower classes. And this is bad because many roman republic enthusiasts like to fancy themselves a little patrician when they look back on it.
>>571861
My history teacher taught it as that the loss of property ownership requirements put all responsibilities and loyalty in the hands of the generals, thus making it able for Sulla's and Caesar's conquests, as the armies cared not for whom they fought against, so as long as they received land grants and/or payment.
>>573913
That theory is considered outdated, most of the men in those armies were still property owners. Furthermore both armies were quite upset about fighting fellow Romans
>>569468
even in RTW its explained hows that not the case
anon is just illiterate or cant see past MUH COHORT
