Can we talk about modern Macedonia, seeing how its independence was about 25 years ago?
I am interested in the origin of the Macedonian people and nation, and that one is sure to be further in the past than the official country anyway.
>>742589
Well, after the WW2, Yugoslavia started to promote the idea of the uniqueness of the macedonian people and remove any bulgarian self-determination.
Although the said self-determination somewhat became diminished after the second balkan war and the ww 1.
As genetics go, the today macedonians are mainly of slavic descent mixed with what was left of the original population before 6th century.
As of today, they try to define themselves by separating from their neighbors as they are considered a thread to the macedonian identity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Pulevski
>that map
dumbest fucking shit i saw all day
>>742589
The Macedonian independence movement was started in the late 19th/early 20th century, By Bulgarians who wanted to see the region free from Turkey. After that Serbians took over and developed the Macedonian identity to separate the region culturally from Bulgaria.
I am Macedonian. Aside from Greeks we are the oldest people on the Balkan peninsula.
>>742653
Okay, but thats the story of the state. I want the story of the people.
Since most of the world agrees that Macedonian people do exist, when did they become a nation, when did their culture, ethnicity, folklore, sense of identity and so on make them realize they are unlike those around them?
>>742696
So you think that the Macedonian people have been a separate nation from all of your neighbors for 3000 years, never melting into being Illyrian, or Greek, or Roman, or Bulgarian, or Ottoman, or Serbian?
>>742706
>I want the story of the people.
They were Bulgarians in the period from the 10th to the 19th century.
>>742716
Bulgaria didnt even exist in that period. How can people born in a place that hasnt been "Bulgaria" for nearly a millennium justify calling themselves Bulgarian?
And how did these people who endured for so long decide to quit and become Macedonians just when it was becoming easy to be Bulgarian?
>>742721
>Bulgaria didnt even exist in that period.
How so? The Bulgarian national identity was firmly established with Christianization and the Slavic Script in the 9th century, and Tsar Samuil and his sons were self proclaimed Bulgarians, and also referred to as such by Byzantine sources.
>>742732
I thought the serbian monk Paisius coined and "created" the bulgarian identity in his book Istoriya Slavyanobolgarskaya in 1762.
Before that it was just a khaganate north of the East Roman Empire, changing in size and leadership all the time. It even frequently had foreign rulers.
Not to be a Byzaboo but...
>there will never be an alternate world where the Slavs never fucked the Balkans up and Graeco-Roman culture still thrives up to the shores of the Danube
Modern day Macedonian citizens are either ethnic Bulgarians who identify as such, Bulgarians who are identifying as "Macedonians" (Bulgarians in denial) and Albanians. Then we have minorities such as Gypsies and as far as I know very small communities of Jews, Armenians etc.
Macedonia is a artificially created country really.
>>742772
Would you rather have the Arabs conquer the place? The siege of Constantinople was lifted by the Bulgar Khaganate.
>>742779
Most countries are artificially created. Look at any modern state at the moment of its creation, very few of them have borders corresponding to national identity.
Some like Germany and Italy still cant get all the "tribes" composing their state to properly homogenize. Italians dont even speak the same language as each other.
>>742772
>there will never be an alternate world where the Latins never fucked the Balkans up and Dacian-Thracian culture still thrives up to the shores of the Danube
>>742807
>Dacian-Thracian culture
Those people couldnt even write. Greek, and later greeko-roman culture is the highest point of the region.
>>742802
>Most countries are artificially created
True
> Italians dont even speak the same language as each other.
You lost me here. What do you mean? That language differs from one region to another in different regions of a country? I think I have an idea what you mean but I wouldn't give Germany or Italy as an example. More like have a look at Africa and its countries borders and how so many times the ethnic groups inhabiting these countries weren't taken into account which lead to tension and civil war.
My point is the modern idea of "Macedonian" are they were brainwashed into believing they are descendants of ancient Macedonia.
The equivalent would be telling modern day Bulgarians they are direct descendants of Thracian's who inhabited large parts of modern day Bulgaria.
Macedonians = half Serbs and half Bulgarians
>>742823
Italians have a language called "italian" which they all have to learn to live normally and deal with documents and such.
However there are several languages divided into regions that are very different, much more than dialects.
People will genuinely not understand each other from city to city, which introduced the very emotional hand waving and facial expressions into italian culture; you need gestures to communicate with other italians.
In Germany the cultures between the different provinces or however they call them are also big, although at least they have a common language.
Food, drink, song, clothing, idea of what is good and what is bad and so on paint borders over the country.
I went for these more subtle examples, because Macedonia too is more subtle.
They have their own language, their own way of writing it, their own songs, holidays, national heroes and so on. They are artificially created in the same way that Italy or Germany are, but not in the same way that Nigeria is.
>>742834
But Anon, Bulgarians are Slavs.
>>742836
>In Germany the cultures between the different provinces or however they call them are also big, although at least they have a common language.
That is only the case because local varieties were systematically phased out in the past two centuries. Especially Low German has essentially been brought to the verge of extinction. Standard German is a smallest common denominator of local varieties of central and southern Germany, further standardized and artificially created by the orthography.
There's still lots of local variation south of the Benrath line, but most dialects today are a creole of the original dialect and standardized German.
>>742836
>However there are several languages divided into regions that are very different, much more than dialects.
Can you link me to a source or should I just google it? Not saying it ain't so but I have to admit I've never heard of this. I know regional differences in culture, traditions, language exist but you are saying whole languages which I find hard to believe.
I don't think Germany can be used as an example for what you are trying to say, again, as above of course each region has its own tradition, folklore and beer but they all ethnically identify as Germans (well or used to be, now with flooding them with sand people but that's another topic)
I don't think you can really compare Macedonia to these "subtle", as you describe them, examples.
![Linguistic_map_of_Italy[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/sLMKmFN.png "Linguistic_map_of_Italy[1].png")
>>742864
Rad the post above yours to see that Germany has been "artificially" made into a single country with a single nation, as we are saying.
As for Italian languages, I havent studied it, but I've traveled there and know from local people about it. As in, more than one person have told me this is the case, and those people didnt know each other, completely independent guys I met while traveling.
>>742870
Alright, it seems that we have just a different understanding about the concept of "artificially" created countries.
You see I don't think Bismarck uniting the German realm by force and assuming a more "universal" standardized form of language for convenience sake as artificial really.
I speak Hoch Deutsch myself and thank god it exists because having visited and lived in German speaking countries it saves your ass. I can understand the Vienna accent, I'm ok when in Bavaria but when in Switzerland oh god help me I can hear that its some form of German but I ain't understanding a single word.
>>742886
>You see I don't think Bismarck uniting the German realm by force and assuming a more "universal" standardized form of language for convenience sake as artificial really.
A nation didnt exist, and one was created for political reasons.
Thats as artificial as it gets.
Macedonian national consciousness has its origins in the 19th-20th centuries. Its vision started as a schism from Bulgarian views of the same period since Bulgarian nationalism like all others is modern too, one of the first Bulgarian "nationalists", the monk Paisius, in fact lamented that the Bulgarians would often not consider themselves a distinct people but identified as Greeks who were the traditional Christian merchant class/culture in the Ottoman empire, and was influenced by Serbian nationalist attempts to separate Bulgarians from Macedonians due to territorial anxieties.
Bulgarians have no leg to stand on when calling Macedonians artificial or recent since they're the same by those terms.
>>742836
>which introduced the very emotional hand waving and facial expressions into italian culture; you need gestures to communicate with other italians
This is a meme btw. The association between italians and gesturing comes from the Commedia dell'Arte, IRL italians don't gesticulate anymore than any other ethnic group.
>>742901
I dont know if its a meme, but I knew about it before going to Italy, and a bunch of italians confirmed it.
If its a meme, they enjoy reliving it.
>>742903
>and a bunch of italians confirmed it
Yes people here have this impression that foreigners don't actually gesticulate like us, then you go abroad and you notice that all foreigners are just the same as you. We've started believing the meme.
>>742901
>the commedia dell'arte
Wat?
I believe this one >>742836 is right
t. Italian
>>742911
Vecchio cazzo dici? Il forestiero non ha fatto altro che regurgitare cazzate da sentito dire.
Sei mai uscito dall'Italia? Perchè ti posso assicurare che il resto d'Europa gesticola tanto quanto noi. Beh magari un po' meno dei terroni, ma neanche troppo.
>>742909
If I am speaking a foreign language, I would just gestures often. But when speaking in my own native language, I seldom do.
Italians use gestures even when speaking italian.
Maybe when you travel abroad people will gesticulate to help you understand them, but if you observe them talking to each other they wont.
>>742836
>People will genuinely not understand each other from city to city, which introduced the very emotional hand waving and facial expressions into italian culture; you need gestures to communicate with other italians.
That's wrong anon. Italian gestures can change remarkably from one side of the boot to the other. If what you say is true, then they should be universal.
t. italian guy
>>742920
>Il forestiero non ha fatto altro che regurgitare cazzate da sentito dire.
Vabè come al solito fanno,neanche ci faccio più caso,più che altro mi sembrava una cavolata il fatto che il gesticolare derivi dalla commedia dell'arte
>>742921
>I seldom do
You personally maybe. I've spent a semester abroad in america, one in Germany and a year and a half in France, I can assure you that people in those countries gesticulate the same as the people in my hometown.
>>742925
Guarda vecchio, è l'ipotesi più accettata. Chiaro che parliamo di un discorso ancora apertissimo, con linguisti che si ammazzano a vicenda in dibattiti e critiche, ma l'ipotesi della commedia dell'arte è comunque la più diffusa.
>>742927
Where in Italy is your hometown?
In which cities did you spend your semesters?
>>742931
Boston and Heidelberg, six months Lyon and a year Paris. I ain't telling you where I live nigga.
>>742858
>But Anon, Bulgarians are Slavs.
Just fucking kill yourself, senpai.
>>742991
How are Bulgarians not Slavs?
>>742802
>Italians dont even speak the same language as each other.
In 1915 buddy, not today
>>742991
t. 9th century relic
>>742735
>frequently had foreign rulers
What does that have to do with anything?
>Spain rule by Bourbon (French)
>England ruled by Plantagenet (French)
>Hungary ruled by Capet(French)
Gee I guess Hungarians, English, and Spanish are actually all French.
>>742735
>the serbian monk Paisius
You mean the monk who was born in Bansko, Bulgaria and served in the Bulgarian Zograf monastery? What kind of retarded are you?
>>742898
>Bulgarians have no leg to stand on when calling Macedonians artificial or recent since they're the same by those terms.
That is so, but our history books lay no claims on foreign rulers and do not hide and distort evidence.
>>743103
He wasnt born in Bulgaria, because Bulgaria didnt exist.
And Paisius of Hilendar, surprisingly, was from Hilendar, which is in on Mount Athos.
And he wrote his book while traveling around what is today Poland and Germany.
>>742836
>Macedonians
>their own language
South slavic is the language of FYROM, Montenegro, Bulgarian, Serbian and Croatian
They are too similar to be a seperate language.
>>743122
>South slavic is the language of FYROM, Montenegro, Bulgarian, Serbian and Croatian
>They are too similar to be a seperate language.
This is absolutely false, and it is not easy for people from these countries to understand each other in any complex conversation.
>>743115
So did Serbia exist then?
itt: non-balkianians trying to talk about balkan history
>>742589
they are bulgarians that yugoslavia cucked bulgaria out of owning
they just literally called this chunk of bulgaria macedonia and EVERYONE went with it
>>743130
Except for the fact that they do, and I've seen bulgarians in Belgrade talking to Serbians, and my brother (who knows Serbian) has spoken to Macedonians in Serbian and they understood him perfectly.
They are dialect-tier, albeit with differences, they are not completely seperate.
>>743134
You dont need to be Roman to talk about Roman history. Same with Macedonia.
>>743139
>Macedonians in Serbian
You do realize how drastically different Serbian and Macedonian grammar is? Many macedonians learned serbo croatian during yugoslavia and the young macedonians are just hooked on serbian turbo folk, so they understand. Macedonian and Bulgarian, now that you can call two dialects.
>>743155
Every language that is in a different state eventually becomes different, and I know of the different grammar and the other details, but a Bulgarian and a Serbian can strike up a conversation (even a relatively complex one) without a big issue.
>>743162
Lexical similarities does not make a dialect by itself.
https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/mutual-intelligibility-of-languages-in-the-slavic-family/
>>742589
Well, as a new state I guess it makes sense that try to create a national identity of their own. But the fact is that people in FYROM speak a Slavic language, are culturally associated with Slavs and therefore have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia or Alexander the Great.
The attempts to fabricate history become rather ridiculous after a certain point.
>>743226
Thats not the point. The state is 25 years old. The nation is much older than that, regardless of its origin.
There are people in their 60s who swear by the nation, this wouldnt happen if they were only told they are macedonians in their 30s.
>>742995
How are they? Just speaking a Slav language makes them Slav?
>>743242
Yes, slavs are a linguistic group.
>>742589
what the ficki is that map
>Bosnia and Montenegro
>Serbia looks like a tumor
>Austria-Hungary
>>743238
>The nation is much older than that
Older, yes. Much older, no. We can pinpoint the creation of the modern Fyromian identity to 1945.
So, to summarize.
>>743333
Why is the bulgarian white?
>>742589
I can tell you why it's called "Macedonia".
See, back during the Balkans Wars, after some shenanigans, Ottoman region of Macedonia was split between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. Now, I won't go into the detail on who backstabbed who, but the point is that now 3 countries had a region called "Macedonia". Naturally, everybody referred to their own region as simply "Macedonia" and didn't really care that other 2 countries also have the same region. Serbia was no exception. They didn't call it "Serbian Macedonia" but simply "Macedonia", just like how Greeks and Bulgarians today called their parts "Macedonia".
Fast forward to the end of WW2. Thinking that Bulgaria and Albania would join Yugoslavia, commies created a separate republic out of the region Macedonia. Because it was never planned for it to split they didn't bother renaming it into something less Greek-triggering because Greeks probably didn't give a fuck back then about how a republic within another country is called. However, after Tito-Stalin split it became obvious there would be no Bulgarians joining Yugoslavia, so commies decided to brainwash Bulgarians in Macedonia that they have nothing to do with Bulgaria in order to prevent possible complications.
Let's fast forward again to the 90's and the Yugoslav wars. Republic of Macedonia declared independence and because it has been Republic of Macedonia for 50 years at that point, they naturally identified with the name. Now they don't want to change it because it's part of their national identity and Greeks be damned.
I just wish our government would drop the alexander the great shit and just accept our glorious slavic roots, but we should keep the name ofc were in the macedonia region after all and we used it in yugo, if the greeks are okay with that then good if they aren't then fuck em any way they're butthurt
>>743362
quite good answer. We could have solved the name problem with a "North Macedonia" or sth, but nationalism has different views.
Something people tend to not understand is that people before ww1 were quite free to move arounf the Balkans. There were large greek populations in today's Serbia and Macedonia, Serbs and Bulgarians in today's Greece etc. Some of the most bastardised nations/states are located here.
literally
>>743422
if the Ottomans never came to the Balkans we would be colonizing space right now
before the Turks came we had empires here, EMPIRES, three empires came and went, serbian, bulgarian, byzantine, the other dutchies and such were rich as fuck as well, the Germans were cleaning our ditches and were our slaves for money, then the Turks came and it all reversed and we missed much progress
without them we would have a Balkan galaxy by now
>>743487
Yeah son, your EMPIRES were the envy of the world. Almost as relevant as the German Empire.
>>743501
balkans were the center of the europe at that time dude, the westeners were jealous of us so some of them worked with the turks to bring us down and halt our progress
>>743512
WE WUZ
>>743242
>does speaking a language that's clearly in the slavic family make them part of the linguistic group known as Slavs
gee senpai i dunno
>>743534
KANGZ
>>743512
If by Balkans you mean Greece and Anatolia sure.
>>743583
/pol/ has this idea of a slavic "race".
>>742589
Regional Bulgarians.
Like Austrian Germans, Cypirot Greeks, Kosovo Albanians, etc. Macedonians are/were Bulgarians.
