What could you tell me about falchions? No one ever talks about them I wasn't even aware they existed until recently they seem like what an Ork would use. Were they as damaging as they look?
>>503778
Popular. Good cutting swords.
There's really not much to say.
>>503778
A mixture of an axe and an arming sword, the falchion was great at parting rings of chainmail. Fell out of use once plate started to appear because you cannot cut plate. Not that useful against enemies not wearing chainmail because of the lack of an effective point but if you were hit with it on bare skin...well, you don't want to know.
>>503966
umm ya i do :^))
>>503778
that one looks like a scimitar with it's slightly bent curve going on.
I thought falchions were mostly straight
A falchion is effectively just a messer with an arming sword's hilt construction.
>>503975
Fine...I guess I'll have to tell you now...
First, your eyes would burn in their sockets and turn to red hot magma. Your seed would do the same, leaking from your torched scrote.Your brain would expand and part your skull. The wound itself would fester immediately and rot to the bone.
Horrible stuff.
>>503966
>the falchion was great at parting rings of chainmail.
There's nothing to support this. At all. Please stop making shit up.
>A mixture of an axe and an arming sword,
No it isn't.
>>503778
Everyone claims they're cheap peasants weapons,however I disagree. Consider how much extra, expensive metal is needed to create such a large blade. Look at surviving examples. The Conyers Falchion is engraved with heraldry and decoration, and is a passed down, legendary family heirloom. Look at artwork depicting them. They're all in the hands of knights and armoured men.
>>503778
Far more common than the typical "knightly" double edged sword.
I'm going to kill the bastard that linked me to this thread. You know who you are.
Right. lets get started.
>>503778
>No one ever talks about them
they've been horribly under-researched. Žákovský and Głosek have published local works in the Czech Republic and Poland, My work was published in september in germany, but the main research papers on them wont be at least till the end of the year when I'm hoping to get something into Gladius or the Acta Periodica Deullorum - depends how the peer-review goes. A book is further away still, but will get there. Who knows, we might yet have a single-edged equivalent of Oakeshott's "records" before 2020. But then I thought I'd have the main work published by 2015...
>>503812
>Popular. Good cutting swords.
Good cutters, yes. Popular? Uncertain. There's a distinct disparity between archaeological examples, and art. I've yet to nail the reason for that.
>>503966
No. Just NO.
>>503986
curvature varies all the way from concave edges, to distinctly banana-shaped. but most are fundamentally straight. The Munich one pictured by OP is badly distorted in that photo, its not nearly as curved, in reality.
>>503990
Very debatable. Its not a black or white grouping, but a venn diagram with extra blurring.
>>504242
>Everyone claims they're cheap peasants weapons,however I disagree.
Correct.
>Consider how much extra, expensive metal is needed to create such a large blade.
not really that much more - its just distributed in different ways. Practical experience indicates that a falchion is generally only 2-5% more mass by volume than a single-handed sword of similar dimensions.
>>504322
>Far more common than the typical "knightly" double edged sword.
No.
Study of manuscripts indicates approximately 20% of illustrations depict at least one falchion, but there are significant details there that skew that percentage (I'll explain more later.) I'd estimate that at best, falchions consist of 10% of edged weapons.
>>505209
Are you the fag holding the sword in the video?
Early falchions are an extreme of weapon design; the emphasis of the cut over the thrust. In this they are not "heavy", or "axe-like" - that is so far removed from the reality to be as wrong as the idea that "knights cant stand up" if knocked over - its plain victorian bullshit that's been repeated ad nauseum.
The reality is that they have incredibly thin distal profiles, with aggressive tapering. the broad falchions of the 13th century, therefore, are regularly less than 1.5mm thick, sometimes 1.2mm thick at their broadest points - so thin that most of the surviving examples are corroded right through. they are designed to cut with minimal resistance, against textiles. They are not in any way designed to "cut armour", or the likes - they weren't even made in an era where armour was commonplace beyond the best-equipped professional soldiers - the vast majority would be armed with kettle-hat and gambeson, textile armour that the falchion excels against.
Its also been noted when I've been talking with historian and smith Peter Johnsson that in some ways, that's absolutely the perfect example of chivalry... a sword that's adapted to cut down the lower-classes, but is quite ineffective against the well-armoured upper-class, the people you'd want to subdue and ransom.
with the end of the 13th C, falchions start to evolve to counter the rise in use of armour, with different types appearing that cope to greater or lesser degrees, but they really are not optimised in any way towards armoured conflict.
>>505239
No.
Why would you even think that I am?
I'm saying that everything in that captioned picture is so wrong that I have to respond to it in the fashion of that XKCD sketch: I'm not going to bed, "someone is wrong on the internet" - namely that video.
(But I'd love to smack him over the head for the crap he said about them in that programme.)
>>505280
It's History Channel shit. Were you really expecting historical accuracy?
>>505263
evolution of the falchion toward the mid-14th C sees the decline of the extreme broad falchions - they are almost gone by the end of the first quarter of the century, I know one surviving example with an oakeshott type T pommel that might be indicative of a mid-14th C date thanks to Dr Stefan Mader, but its very debatable if its a working life replacement, or worse, a composite. Even with that one, I'm inclined to say the type is extinct by the middle of the century, and the adoption of clipped-point profiles, of which OP's pic is one typological example, become the most commonplace falchions. A more short-lived and extreme typological form is that displayed in this pic, one of two surviving examples with a verifiable archaeological provenance, a reverse-edged type (the cutting edge is on the inside, concave edge) with reinforced tips. The fact they only last 50 years is however, a good indication that despite the reinforced tip, they're not actually much good against armour, and were pretty rapidly abandoned in favour of the Oakeshott XVs which are in the ascendant at this point in time. They're pretty much entirely extinct by the 1370's,
>>505286
That's the entire point of the reaction to it...
>>505209
>There's a distinct disparity between archaeological examples, and art. I've yet to nail the reason for that.
Maybe because they're not as elegant looking or symbolic as regular European swords, so less likely to be preserved or kept in good condition?
principal evolution of the clip-point, cusped falchions of the 14th and 15th C sees a gradual narrowing, forming increasingly gracile blades into the 16th century. It also marks the growth of the messer in eastern Europe, spreading as far as the Germanic states through the course of the 15th C, witha gradual rise in social status as it does so, to the point that the messer overtakes the falchion/malchus in the 3rd quarter of the century, and is socially acceptable enough that Hans Sumersperger is making messers for the Holy Roman Emperor in the 4th quarter of the century.
Its those messers which form the second primary branch of the asymmetric arms of western and central Europe. It would however, be erroneous to describe them as the same as falchions; though they are typologically similar, with the details of hilt construction method the primary forms of messer are distinct, and there is significant evidence to indicate that their manufacture is distinct, with differentiation of production sources indicating the manufacture by the knife-smiths (messer-schmeide) guilds rather than the sword-smiths (schwertschmeide) who held an established monopoly of political and economic power in the earlier centuries.
Returning to the falchions, however, we see their evolution through a number of surviving examples (though the body of archaeological evidence is horribly small, just 30-35 examples from the medieval age can be listed.), which shows the thickening of their distal taper as the profile narrows, indicating the increased use of the clip-point in the thrust - however, they remain optimised for the cut, with edge geometry and profiling roughly akin to the earlier type XI/XII/XIII style blades of the 11th-13th C, suited to cutting. While they're optimised, they remain lightweight - the castillon hoard type C with falchion blade is under 900G overall.
>>503990
A messer is effectively just a falchion with a knife's hilt construction.
>>505368
nope. we have so few, in an archaeological state, yet alone any sort of preserved condition (preserved, in good condition? Conyers in Durham, DKM1969.W.004 in Solingen. That's about it. There may be one other, but I've talked about it with a number of other experts, including dr Alan Williams and we're all in the opinion its as bent as a £3 note.), that the disparity is *really* fucking weird.
If the rate of falchions to straight swords depicted in manuscripts were right, then for every 10 medieval swords we pulled out of a river or the likes, we'd find one falchion. If the rate I suspect is more accurate without skewing for cultural reasons were the case, it'd be about 1 in 100.
but its not even that. If that were that sort of ratio for how many falchions there are, there would probably be less than 2000 medieval swords in the world... I've probably handled half that many in my line of work, and I know there's vastly more than that. There's a weird disparity between the numbers, and so far, I dont know why. Nor does anyone else. And the disparity doesn't include messers, they are far more common, especially in eastern Europe. Žákovský and Głosek's work has shown that to be the case - there's a huge number of messers, and their close relatives the tasak, in what was the old soviet bloc nations - poland, czech republic, Moravia, etc, that up until about 15 years ago, were completely unknown, and still are totally unpublished in English. I recent got my hands on Žákovský's PhD paper and an associated catalogue, all in Czech, more than 250 items, and virtually every one is listed at the bottom: Nepublikovano. "unpublished". Its insane.
So the question is "why?". and that's the big one I cant yet answer.
>>505507
Greek artists were known to depict "bad guys" with curved swords regardless of what they used.
Perhaps it's another cultural trope we remain ignorant of?
>>505507
now, I mentioned skewing for cultural reasons, and its hard to explain, at least within a 2000-character limit.
but, there's a BIG percentage of depictions of falchions in art, that aren't secular, and its that, combined with the research work of Peter Johnsson, and some comments that Professor Matt strickland in glasgow university made that I personally suspect has resulted in that disparity. you have the primary body of Christian text, biblical, and the scholars, and there's an odd recurrence, you see the phrase "the two-edged sword of god", again and again. And you have Peter's work on geometry, the number theory that underpins medieval thinking, which is completely alien to us. But we KNOW its used - Dr Robert Bork proved it was in use in architecture, Peter's got there with swords, and its seen in other fields too. And I believe that the falchion flies in the face of the geometric symmetry in the European sword. Its part of the reason the seax dies out in the 11th C, when this sea change in philosophy seems to take over. The Falchion, quite simply, is profane. and that's the cultural value that sees its use in biblical art - its seen, repeatedly, in the hands of the un-christian, the philistine, the unbeliever. I think, in a way, its like the "black hat" in 50's westerns. it is a recognisable shorthand for the un-Christian, the heathen - Goliath is pictured again and again and again with a falchion, for instance. And its that cultural value, I think that is behind the disparity of popularity for many uses of it.
>>505537
same thing.
look at the crusades. All the crusaders with curved swords.
then look at the actual swords. the oldest known arabic sword that's curved is from the end of the 13th C - about 1298, I recall. It post-dates the crusades, and the falchion.
but ask anyone what the swords of non-christians in the crusades were, and, likea meme straight out of 'skyrim', you're going to start hearing the phrase "Curved. Swords."
and that's even before people really think about the fact that the majority of falchions, and messers were actually straight.
>>505489
>>503990
One last thing before I call it a night.
Neither of you is right.
I thought it was nice and simple, when I started this research work. years down the line, I honestly don't know, to the point where for typological classification I'm starting to be sceptical as to whether there's any differentiation between messer and falchion, because they're just variations of the same thing...
(or messer and tasack, falchion and fauchon, storta, malchus, braquemard, etc etc.).
I've handled a falchion with a full-tang, scale grips, and a complex-hilt. I've seen messers with a narrow tang, and a peined-on pommel. I've seen messers with no nagel, and messers with grips that are sword-like; a bored wooden grip on a stalk tang, bound in leather. I've seen a two-edged swordblade with a messer hilt. and then there's the single-edged swords, that arent falchions at all. and that's just half of the weird ones.
Its not worth even bothering trying to group them into two piles, it doesnt work. the reasearch work I've done has had what in project management terms would be called "critical feature creep", as I've realised more and more facets needed studied, it started off as "falchions", quickly became "falchions and messer". Nowadays, after various iterations, its simply "the Western and Central European asymmetric single-edged arms", because neither "falchion" or "messer" is a suitably accurate term.
I dived down this rabbit-hole nearly 5 years ago, and its deeper than I ever imagined. Still cant see the bottom, and I long ago hit terminal velocity.
Have you published anything available in English?
You friggin fascinate me.
The only true curved European sword before the sabre was the dussack.
>>505602
>the oldest known arabic sword
>Arabic
See, that's your problem: Arab swords are str8 Swords.
The curve (and the single edge) was brought to the region by the Turkics.
The Turkics were pretty much the majority of the leaders & cavalrymen that the Crusaders faced. As Arab Middle East declined and fell.
That said, Middle Eastern factions used both straight double edged and curved single edged swords.
>>505209
>There's a distinct disparity between archaeological examples, and art. I've yet to nail the reason for that.
because they were so common that they were used more recklessly than more valuable longswords and just threwn away when too worn-out. they were tools, not status symbols.
>>507219
you mean the tesák.
'dussack' is simply an anglicised corruption of tesák.
Most of them are straight. - see pic.
>>505998
the main version of a single-edged arms typology is published in "Das Schwert: Gestald und Deganke", bilingual catalogue of the Deutsches Klingenmuseum, Solingen exhibition, which has also used the typology in the exhibition.
A paper from the talk given at the RL Scott "real fighting stuff" Conference in Glasgow's Kelvingrove museum should be published someday by Triqueta services, but its not due for a while. Main paper should be in Gladius later this year if I'm lucky.
>>507228
Its not a subject I've studied too deeply - mostly work from "Islamic swords and swordsmiths" by Unsal Yucel has been used for research on that side. "Islamic" would be a more accurate term than "arabic" too, - a mistake on my part, and I apologise for using the incorrect term there - middle eastern arms are not my field of speciality. (and it was late...).
Although I'll just add, while the curved sabre is extant at that point, (and the (geographically) hungarian Avar used sabres stretching back a lot earlier, there's so far an absolute absence of any link between them, and the falchion. the closest link I've managed to find at all, is Lombardic cleaver-form knives.
>>507315
Nope. that still doesnt account for the disparity between archaeological finds - particularly river finds and similar contexts.
Also, there's absolutely no evidence that they were "so common that they were used more recklessly". If that were the case, then we would be finding remnants of hundreds of them in an archaeological context. We dont. In contrast, however, we have single-edged viking swords - hundreds of them. In fact Petersen did a study of that subject about 100 years ago, and found that just under 40% of viking swords in finds were single edged.
In contrast, finds in medieval swords are less than 1%. That can not, in any way, be put down to "they were so common that..." - quite the opposite. the hard archaeological evidence shows that they were far rarer. and so far, we've not managed to find an actual reason for that disparity between art and archaeology.
>>507315
>they were tools, not status symbols.
this is, if not wrong, highly debatable.
of the surviving falchions, a high proportion are clearly high-status weapons - this is something I've discussed with Dr Robert Jones before, when he was working on the subject.
Conyers' falchion carries the heraldry of the Holy Roman Empire, and was used as a sword of tenure, presented to the Bishops of Durham for centuries, same goes for the Pollard Falchion, which is referenced in a large number of records, though the falchion itself is lost. . The Cluny chatelet falchion has a bronze pommel marked with a castle, and was most likely also a sword of tenure. The Thorpe is inlaid with a crown, and has highly complex enamelling for the pommel which is clearly a high-status form - compared with the conventional type J pommels of its date it is notable for the level of detail. The Castillon falchion, likewise is a clear status weapon, the castillon A and B swords are all very workmanlike, Oakeshott XV and XVIII's, with a handful of XVa's in there. The Group C however are all status weapons, with complex fullering, narrow blade profiles, and gold inlay. Both the castillon C type XXas have single gold encrusting, or gilding on the blades in round panels - often described as "rose windows" in style. The falchion has not one, but three such panels, and a blade with some of the most complex geometry I've ever studied.
The other falchions, the Rothenburg one is of disputable provenance, but if its original, is a very high-status type. Both the type 2 blades in Paris and delft are inlaid with markings, and the others are all similar standards of workmanship. If anything, it indicates that falchions were status symbols.
As for "tools", there is absolutely no evidence for that absurd myth. A study of over 7,500 manuscript images, including books of hours, and similar depictions of pastoral, secular activities has shown there to be _not one_ single image of the falchion used as a tool.
>>507342
>Although I'll just add, while the curved sabre is extant at that point, (and the (geographically) hungarian Avar used sabres stretching back a lot earlier, there's so far an absolute absence of any link between them
Avars and Hungarians were also influenced by Turkic (or at least, Altaic) equipment.
The Altaic World blew up in the late 400;s and 500's AD as the Altaic Central Asian side of the Steppes overpopulated and led to the migration of many tribes in all directions.
The curved saber wasn't around during this time - but the Single Edged sword was. Derived from an early version of the Chinese Dao as the Altaics were pretty much their on and off enemies and allies.
Evidence of this could be found in 500's AD reliefs found in cities in the Silk Road that were conquered by Turkic Tribes. In one of them a Turkic warrior in a hunt can be seen utilizing a (possibly) Altaic copy of the Chinese Dao. Indicated so by the presence of the iconic Ring Pommel.
It was this sword that was the basis of the Sabre, as later on the Altaics gave the straight Chinese sword a curve.
This all pretty much took place within 500-800's AD.
>>505323
I saw one of those, labeled as "Malchus" in a private collection in Switzerland, afair it was later century (16th???) and of nothern Italian origin.
I can doublecheck if you like.
>>503966
>chainmail
It's called "mail". Fuck off with your dungeons and dragons bullshit.
>>507437
I'm always looking for more examples. especially those in small museums or local parochial little collections, which arent well-known. I know most of the major museums well enough, but I cant do 'em all.
still need to make it to Estonia for this one...
>>507448
Yay, I can check. afaik the blade was sold in 2014/15 by Fischer auctions, but I know the guy who made the expertise, so I might find some of the related documents.
>still need to make it to Estonia for this one...
Got invitations from 3 museas in Switzerland to go trough their collection.
All I wanted was some information regarding Fechtfeders in their collections. Turns out Zurich alone got several ten thousands of bladed weaponry...
>>507464
Welcome to the wonderful insanity that is arms and armour reserves. Glasgow reserves are like that scene in the Matrix. "We need guns. lots of guns" - only with swords and guns. (and armour, and crossbows, etc...)
Zurich has some damn nice bits in it - some feders that are interesting, which Daniel Jaquet has been cataloguing recently.
>>507355 is the one that Fischer auctioned last year, I dont recall any other malchus types they've let me know about, so any information would be great - feel free to get in contact with me if you find any sources. It shouldnt be too hard to have worked out who I am from all this, there's not many historians in arms and armour, and less of them doing single-edged stuff. And yes, I could use a trip, but this is an anon board, at heart.
As I hinted at earlier, with "with a verifiable archaeological provenance", unfortunately there's a lot of dodgy shit out there that's probably fake - at best, 19th C reproductions... at worst, made a year ago.
>>507496
>Zurich has some damn nice bits in it - some feders that are interesting, which Daniel Jaquet has been cataloguing recently.
Yes, but we found one example which was previously unknown in the Solothurn armory. I got a lot on my plate right now, but when things calm down I'll ask Dani out for a sparring match, and a beer or two.
In Switzerland pretty much every Canton has a musea, with the full historic armory of the that Canton. So there is enough weapons and armour to equip an entire army in like a dozen Cantons. Very few of this huge stockpile is showing up in international papers.
>>505209
>Study of manuscripts indicates approximately 20% of illustrations depict at least one falchion, but there are significant details there that skew that percentage (I'll explain more later.) I'd estimate that at best, falchions consist of 10% of edged weapons.
Studies of manuscripts indicate that illustrations can depict more than one weapon. Where's the disparity?
>>505507
How did you get to do what youre currently doing? What did you pursue in school? I just finished my undergrad in history and want to do what youre doing.
>>507440
Did you understand what he means? Yes. So where's the problem?
I bet you're the sort of odious tosser who spergs out if someone talks about firing a bow.
The thing that immediately came to my mind is that the artist wanted to draw a straight blade, but his hand trembled or something and his straight line would look messed up, so he made it curved.
>>505561
>The Falchion, quite simply, is profane.
Could this not be the reason why so few have remained? I mean if they were considered profane they might well have been destroyed and the metal recycled rather than be left in the dust.
Also did single edged weapons come in two handed versions too?
>>507785
If my memory serves me right all the falchion depictions i saw were in the hands of people standing in the back lines of armies with only their hands and falchions visible and in smaller size than the regular swords. I guess drawing smallers swords became harder to identify andbharder to draw than falchions
>>507685
>Where's the disparity?
the disparity is that the manuscripts are depicting these weapons far more commonly than they're found in an archaeological context.
the simple answer is, the manuscripts aren't an accurate portrayal of what's being used.
the difficult question is _why_ are they portraying them that way?
>>507844
Could it simply be that they look cooler and more individual than a regular arming sword? Like how modern films like Ironclad and Braveheart give the hero a gigantic two handed sword? Or how everyone has a tommy gun in WW2 propaganda films when most would have had bolt action rifles?
>>507826
>I mean if they were considered profane they might well have been destroyed and the metal recycled rather than be left in the dust.
still doesn't explain the disparity in river-finds and the likes.we have hundreds of swords, dropped in rivers, in lakes, off boats, all sorts of stuff. but the number of falchions among those is not proportionate. if they were common, even if they were profane and destroyed after being worn out, we'd still have more found from accidental loss. But we don't. so there's this disparity. What I'm trying to research is the social, the cultural aspects that have influenced that disparity, to understand *why* its uncommon.
and I'm not convinced the profane aspect of it stopped it being used - hell, we see falchions in the hands of saints and angels in art - there's a clear underlying symbolism there, the sword of wrath, of the un-godly virtues can be put to the use of Christian service, as much as they're also the depiction of the un-Christian, the pagan or the likes. so its not clear-cut. But there's a distinct sub-context there, which we, as a modern secular culture, 500-years removed don't understand yet. And honestly, I don't think I'll ever get the smoking gun that proves this all. The best I can manage is to publish my research, and hopefully, some PhD student will take up the baton in 20,50 years, and will be able to use far better research techniques and resources, and find a better answer.
>>507863
very possibly - it really could be that simple.
the problem is, will we ever know?
>>507844
Possibly because it was a fairly unusual weapon, and therefore more likely to be noticed (especially since many of the surviving examples seem to be higher status), and later shown in art?
I haven't researched this, it's just what springs to my mind.
>>507928
What I mean is, I'm more likely to notice and remember a Bugatti Veyron on the road that a Toyota Corolla. Much more likely to photograph one too, so maybe a similar vein here?
>>507935
as I say, its very possible, it could be that simple - its an possibility that's been considered for a long time.
the problem is working out if it is that.
the other problem with that is that there's this recurring trend of their depiction in the hands of the non-christian - goliath, or the Roman soldiers at the tomb during the resurrection in biblical art, for instance. Its too often seen there, for it just to be "looks good". there's something else going on there. but its a fucking bastard to work out what it is...
