We always discuss Great Man history and military history. How about something different for a change.
Anyone feeling the mood to discuss agricultural and social history?
Is there a correlation between the grain and cereal crops of the Americas and the technological development of the native populations?
I hate to sound too Guns-Germs-And-Steel, but I do have to wonder if the reason the Native Americans didn't develop the mechanical expertise of Europe and China is that they had corn instead of wheat or rice. Or something like that.
>>492009
But corn, potato, peppers, etc. are much more efficient crops to farm which would have helped sustain a larger population.
Old world population skyrocketed after new world crops were introduced and implemented on old world farming communities.
>>491989
>Anyone feeling the mood to discuss agricultural and social history?
Significantly it is about relations of production, compare the Serb's land redistribution to the static English monestaries.
>>492018
This had more to do with diversification, at least in the area of agricultural history I'm familiar with (Ireland).
It's less that potatoes were some super crop that replaced everything else, and more about how previously unusable, hilly, cold and wet land became able to grow something.
Other products, especially beef and butter, actually go up in production, because you're able to put land that used to be used for subsistence over to more pasture, etc.
Diversification is always great.
>>492053
>It's less that potatoes were some super crop that replaced everything else, and more about how previously unusable, hilly, cold and wet land became able to grow something.
But potatos are a supercrop.
They can basically survive under any weather and are extremely low maintenance.
Assuming that that everything doesn't end up getting razed, I predict that once oil prices and/or availability get permanently out of whack we'll see de-urbanization and permaculture will become ascendant.
>>492053
>because you're able to put land that used to be used for subsistence over to more pasture, etc.
Attend to the classed features of "putting land [to use]"
>>492072
>we'll see de-urbanization
That's never occured throughout history
>>492075
It's not classed. The land is question was wasteland, and regarded as such by all. No farmer, certainly not a poor one, would like to be forced to survive on cold, wet, hilly ground.
>>492056
But produces less yields then crops like rice under intensive cultivation. When you have both, you get to optimize your output.
>>492079
Yeah, but modern cities are predicated on being able to get as much power as you want more-or-less on tap and those eggs are all in the basket of fossil fuels at some point in the supply chain. Places that rely on hydroelectric or nuclear might be able to manage fairly well but once the oil tap starts to dry up the cities will be physically unable to support the number of people in them and said people will flee like rats.
But that might also be somewhat remediated through the conversion of useless intrastructure to useful infrastructure - a slick, shiny office building with no power isn't good for much at all but if skeletonized it could probably make a hell of a vertical garden thanks to all of the glass.
>>491989
I do think its interesting that all the advanced civilizations in the Americas were towards the south. That those societies never invented bronze or iron weapons could just be a quark of history.
I don't totally by into guns germs and steel but I do think there is a grain of truth to the idea that local climate, crops and animals play a role in the speed of development.
>>492119
>I don't totally by into guns germs and steel but I do think there is a grain of truth to the idea that local climate, crops and animals play a role in the speed of development.
Of course. Geography and resources play a huge role in shaping civilization, society, culture, military, technology, etc. etc. It's actually unfortunate that not many historians choose to focus on that aspect apart from Jared Diamond.
>>492079
>de-urbanization
>That's never occured throughout history
I'm not an expert on the topic but I thought there were tribes in South America that de-urbanised?
>>492126
>apart from Jared Diamond
plenty of historians do, you have just only heard of jared diamond because it is a strawman SJWs like to cream over
>>492126
Loads of historians chose to focus on those things. The problem is you fucks don't read them so you think Jared Diamond is hot shit.
>>492135
Yep. And North American cities deurbanized before the arrival of Europeans.
>>492135
The theory is questionable at best.
>>492147
So...did the cities never go away?
>>492153
Population decline isn't the same as abandoning the cities.
>>492157
So, I'm going to repeat, what happened to the cities?
>>492157
Anon that posed the question here, like I say I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, in the slightest, is that what what happened in SA, population decline?
>>492092
>The land is question was wasteland, and regarded as such by all. No farmer, certainly not a poor one, would like to be forced to survive on cold, wet, hilly ground.
So the catholic irish majority, being forced onto land that is undesirable, isn't a class issue.
Good job. Look forward to repeating "Ps make Degrees".
>>492182
Oh hurp, durp, you're bringing up shit that wasn't being addressed at the time, communicating poorly, and then thinking you're clever for it.
>>492009
I think Indians had bigger problems then corn senpai
>>491989
I've always wondered if simply availability of food, or the ease with which it can be procured, has an effect on civilization. Meaning if it's easy to get food, why bother advancing, because you're already comfortable. Then again, maybe it's the other way around: if you can get food easily you have more free time to develop. Just something I ponder when the whole "why didn't the Native Americans advance more" question comes up.
>>492194
>Attend to the classed features of "putting land [to use]"
The concept of appropriate use of land is highly classed, see The Enclosures (Hammond & Hammond) and the English invasion of Australia (Terra Nullius doctrine).
>>492216
(You)
(You)
Keep reminding yourself as the papers come back P.
>>491989
>Social history
A yes, that thing that women who majored in history and now have no job are interested in to shine light on feminism through the ages to make clickbait tier books in order not to be homeless.
Good stuff
>>492244
Have you ever actually fucking sat down and read Making of the English Working Class?
>>492244
Social History just means the study of social interactions and changes throughout history. Not SJW shit. And is way better than "Battles & Kings"/Great Man Babby History.
>>492079
i'm pretty sure the cities that were under the WRE depopulated after it's fall
>>491989
I can recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_Br%C3%A4ker
>be poor farmer in rural 18th century
>leaves an autobiography
>one of the very few of that social class and time
>>492418
Noice
NOICE
N O I C E
>>492421
http://www.keithsayers.id.au/Toggenburg/Cover.htm
>>492203
think of our society... We have more food available than at any time in history and we're improving by leaps, not just baby steps...
These threads are always upsetting because most people don't know shit about agriculture and yet always feel the need to talk.
>>492092
Except with potato in Ireland it was a low input, high output crop that fit into the restrictions placed in the average crofter without needed additional implements outside of the traditional foot plough.
Potato supplied enough calories to feed a large family on limited acreage and still left enough land to grow enough fodder for a dairy cow that also could and would eat cooked potatoes.
>>492111
I honestly very highly doubt humanity won't be able to come up with a viable substitute for fossillic fuel by the time this happens
>>492126
It surely is an oversimplification, but the way I see it the general rule is that the less hostile an environment is, the more advanced and influental civilisations living on it become in the long run. In the end, it accumulates to that the less time, resources and energy must be put into mere survival, the more you can invest into development.
>>492433
I would say that the realization of the wheel versus carrying/dragging "stuff" is a much more fundamental leap than moving from vacuum tubes to transistors. Not trying to argue though. I haven't ever researched the idea, nor have I seen it addressed.
>>492579
Necessity being the mother of invention, as well as plain old luck, does enter the picture though. I agree about the long run part, but in the short run leaps and bounds can be made in quick order by needy individuals, then capitalized and improved upon by the society in general.
>>491989
>agricultural and social history
so, agrarian socialism?
>>493261
Don't be fucking stupid.
Forget corn, investigate quinoa and ameranth.
Come back when you can tell me how much native caloric intake relied on them as a percentage.
I only want to hear corn put back in its place.
>>492009
First, some of the societies, especially in Mesoamerica, were only slightly less technologically complex. Second, the Chinese and European superiority us mostly due to trade and therefore dispersal of ideas among roughly equally advanced civilisations. Also lack of need/material for some things, like wheeled charts.
>>491989
If you're looking for a different historical subject check out William Cronon's 'Changes in the Land.'
Kind of an old book know but it details the ecological changes of New England during European colonization.
Another interesting topic that's sort of in the same vein is the economic effects of the Black Death on Europe, with things like fields going fallow because there was not enough people alive to work them all.
>>494011
In case anyone is retarded, please read some biochemistry until you know exactly what nixtalmalization is.
Non-biochem answer: corn on its own is useless except as fodder. Masa + beans, however, provides complete protein, though there are two issues here:
1. The protein is unbalanced. There is a preponderance of one protein that will inhibit the metabolism of another protein. This is fixed with native diets, and you only need a few plants to do this to greater health than what even your grandparents probably had. For example: jicama (antizombie weapon), cheyote (go to your local grocery story, boil it, mash it, and use it as a facial beauty creme is guarantee results), zucchinis, etc. Fat is hard to obtain. It is normally obtained via seeds. This diet leads to inefficient metabolism on its own. Mechanically slowing metabolism can be done with chia or other methods.
This is hard to do when your wise medicine men are constantly being executed or sent to the silver mercury refining facilities to bathe knee-deep in mercury. So, most Indios are malnourished as fuck because you are brainwashed to only elect governments that subsidize corn and beans. Quinoa xor amaranth make healthy subsidence much easier, but have been marketed as luxury products to everyone not from the Andes.
The Andeans have a fundamentally different problem. Beneath the general desire to suppress them in civil war, they can't farm like they used to because their aquacultural terraces have been infested. Unless you have lasers to kill mosquitos and magical microwaves to kill worms, the problem is very expensive to fix.
2. Milk and meat are still better proteins, providing beyond your minimal requirements and yielding a diverse collection of complex biochemicals.
Now I hope I never hear the word Corn used again as meaning anything but the most important cereal or pseudocereal products. I also hope none of you idiots ever again claim an empire WANTS potato/corn subsisdence.
>>492126
Fernand Braudel in "A History of Civilizations" is fairly big on geography.
>>492560
It's probably going to happen much faster than you'd think.
>>494011
Corn is the most efficient crop they had
>>492579
>>492126
Try access to other culture cultures.
Lets take early Iron working as a example.It was invented about 6 or 7 different places at different time. In the whole world. Everyone else just copied the technology from others who already had it. Pattern welding, the first process to yield useful amount of quality steel, was likely invented in only 1 too 3 places and then copied.
>>492009
They didn't have the same access as we did too animals work domisticimizing, also why they didn't have any plagues
>>495914
Too I mean to and work is worth
Autocorrect fucked me in the ass again
>>495869
That is wrong.
