Are Humans naturally good or evil ? Some agreed that humans were born good, others said the opposite, your thought ?
>>487724
>naturally
please stop shit posting.
>>487731
>nothing is anything maymay :^)
The answer is a little bit of both OP
>>487764
We haven't even gotten to the spuriousness of "good" and "evil."
>>487724
This question is inherently idiotic as there is no objective standard of morality.
Chinese Legalists believed that humans were naturally evil. Therefore must have a strict law to restraint their evil behaviors.
>>487767
Selfishness vs. Selflessness you ninny
>>487774
God just once I wish we could have a discussion about perfectly normal, reasonable questions that any regular person could get with and understand without randy the fucking relativist over here trying to make that queer studies degree pay for itself
>>487803
It's not my fault you asked a stupid fucking question. Beyond the human ability to empathize, we have no innate sense of morality that we all experience precisely the same.
>>487810
>besides the human ability to empathize
>we have no innate sense of morality we experience exactly the same
lol
>besides everyone agreeing government should be for the good of the governed, we have no perfect system of government everyone can agree on, so government as a concept is bunk and doesn't exist
Wow, what's that, morality is kind of messy? No fucking shit dude god I'm sick of you redditors peddling this 101-tier shit and thinking you're fucking deep. We get it, dude, people disagree about things, we fucking geeeet iiiiiit
>>487791
Yep, here he is, JS Mill right on schedule with his shitposting.
>>487803
I too wish we could have that, but you fucked up OP by posting spurious shit
>>487847
Oh please nigga your relativist shilling is as absolutist as they come. "There is no truth, it's all relative maaan.. except for this statement you better not disagree with it faggot"
>>487862
You didn't even beg the question of establishing your peculiar and personal norms, or that humans have a nature.
You are a suppurating fuck wound that needs to be lanced, lavaged and cauterised.
>>487870
I was gonna respond with an argument to your post then I read that cringey Maddox-tier last line and lol'd
G'night m8
“Nature naturally produces thieves, the envious, forgers, murderers; they cover the face of the earthf; forgers, murderers; they cover the face of the earth; and without the laws which repress vice each individual would abandon himself to the instincts of nature, and would think only of himself.… Men are naturally inclined to evil, and they are good only in proportion to the extent that education and experience have modified their impetuosity.”
>>487724
Evil. Hobbes was right. Fuck Rousseau.
>>488771
I too get my worldviews from anime
>>487774
the law
>>487724
Good and evil are creations of mind.
>>487724
No such thing as a good or evil; stop with the shitposting.
>>487724
Human activity is more determined by culture than nature so there is no "natural evil" or "natural good" because it is a moral concept belonging to the realm of nature. Man has a tendency towards neither, the material conditions of his existence determine the type of conscience he will have.
>>488780
Morality may influence law and vice versa, but law does equal not morality
>>488784
>the realm of nature
of culture
"Naturally" humans aren't inclined to either way. Humans, just like universe, follow a simple law of laziness, the most X for least effort, where X is any of the usual needs humans want. Killing someone just for the spite isn't innate to human, but he needs to have a valid reason why this action would help him more than not doing anything.
>>487845
And yet you moral objectivity never provide proof for your side.
All you fags ever say is "It's objective because...I say so! You don't like people hurting you, so that's objective morality right there! People shouldn't hurt people!"
Try coming up with morality that is independent of life before you start calling it objective.
>>487724
We can Self-other which is like echoing our own self into another object and feel what it may feel like to be them. This is called empathy. Mirror neurons are essentially there to give us the ability it empathy. We can choose to empathize with people, we can also choose to see other people as objects. If you self-other you can't help but desire what is good for that person, and proving that good is an act of service, or sacrifice, which is an act I love. Self-othering is also a way if knowing, you understand a part of that person that you otherwise couldn't have if you only saw them as an object. People that objectify one another use each other, as far as they can get away with, to satisfy their own desires.
Humans are a mix between both good and evil. An evil person can easily take advantage of someone who shows empathy by acting. An evil person can easily take control of a good society. Evil people are competing for power in society and laws are there to hinder their progress. They enable the good to exist in relative safety.
People are essentially neither good or evil, but they do play both roles.
>>488800
Lol, you need more evidence than the fact 99.9% of people don't like hurting others for pleasure? What an autistic little goober you are
>>488811
Because that 00.1% disproves any "objective" quality to it, fagtron.
Learn what objective means before you start claiming shit.
>>488803
Forgive my English I'm a lazy phone typesr
>>488815
No it fucking doesn't you idiot. I mean come on someone's fucked in the head and likes to kill for pleasure so that proves morality doesn't exist? Does the one guy stuffing himself with Twinkies mean there aren't diets that are objectively healthy, or that nutrition is subjective? Lmao what a shit argument
>>488811
Not wanting to hurt people =\= hurting is bad(a value claim)
>>488825
Prove they are fucked in the head and it's not just your subjective morality masquerading as objective morality telling you that they are fucked in the head and that's why they act immorally and not that your standards for morality is just subjective.
>there aren't diets that are objectively healthy
There are no objectively healthy diets.
>nutrition is subjective?
Nutrition is highly subjective. Just because nutrition can be generalized to be 'good enough' for a population doesn't mean that each individual doesn't have an optimum nutrition intake which varies from person to person. Sounds pretty subjective to me.
>>488827
Yeah yeah everyone's a sadist on a leash, the only reason I'm not slitting prostitutes open on Friday nights is cause of the law, yadda yadda post some actual evidence for this anime-tier shit for once
>>488834
No. I am saying that the fact that humans are mostly hardwired with empathy does not mean morality exists.
Morality is a set of claims about the supposed value of certain actions whereas empathy is an observable phenomena/response in humans to other people.
Humans are naturally selfish. They are neither evil nor good, but define such things later in their cycles, learning over time as more humans die and are born.
>>488834
Are you trying to make objectivity look bad on purpose or something?
You've still yet to provide any proof, only shitposting.
> the only reason I'm not slitting prostitutes open on Friday nights is cause of the law,
Just because you're a shit that the only reason you're not hurting people is because the law doesn't mean that's the case for everyone else.
I'm not slitting prostitutes open on friday nights because it doesn't benefit me in any way and I wouldn't derive entertainment from it.
Some people might benefit from it, some people might be entertained by it.
There is no way to prove that I am objectively more moral than the latter group is.
>>488833
>prove to me a sexual sadist is ducked in the head
You're so out of touch with reality you need to be convinced the worst depths of human depravity are just that. Lol come on
>nutrition is subjective
What are you fucking smoking? So even though all healthy diets are comprised of unprocessed, natural foods, because someone needs more fats than the other guy, or more protein than the other guy, somehow the nutritional quality of these foods doesn't exist? Kek.
>>488846
I was parodying your viewpoint you autist.
>I don't kill people because I don't benefit from it/wouldn't be entertaining
Sick fuck. How about because you don't want to inflict pain and suffering on another consciousness you fucking wackaloon
>>488851
>You're so out of touch with reality you need to be convinced the worst depths of human depravity are just that. Lol come on
Yep. Now provide objective evidence.
>So even though all healthy diets are comprised of unprocessed, natural foods, because someone needs more fats than the other guy, or more protein than the other guy, somehow the nutritional quality of these foods doesn't exist?
It means there is no objective standard, only varying degrees of efficiency. There is a massive difference between the two.
>>488858
>How about because you don't want to inflict pain and suffering on another consciousness you fucking wackaloon
But I already so, and so do you. At least indirectly through providing demand for meat of animals.
You don't think meat grows on trees, do you? Or worse, you don't really think humanity holds a monopoly on consciousness? So much for "objective" morality, how can you claim it's objective when it only applies to humans?
>>488859
How about you go and rape and murder someone and get back to me about something something subjective interpretation something something
Also, top kek @ trying to prove the existence of a qualitative state of consciousness quantitatively. You want fucking lab results that tell you X is wrong instead of just being a normal human being and using your fucking head.
>varying degrees of efficiency
Of foods that are objectively good for you and proper for your physiology and the physiology of literally every other human on this planet, barring crazy disorders
It's like saying practicing activity X isn't objectively good for improving X because some people need a longer time practicing to git gud than others.
>>488858
>Sick fuck.
think maybe you missed his point a bit there and jumped straight on the feel train to tumblrtown pal
>>488862
There are objectively better ways of living than others. This is a fact. That's all.
>>488880
>le I don't kill people because the cost benefit analysis doesn't square out beep boop maymay
>>488876
>animals don't have conscious because it would disprove my argument
K
>It's like saying practicing activity X isn't objectively good for improving X because some people need a longer time practicing to git gud than others
No it's more like saying practicing activity A, B, C, D, E, or , F is objectively good for improving X but people need varying degrees of the previous while a dumbass ( you ) is claiming that specific amounts of ABCDEF is objectively the best for X when it's clearly not the case.
>There are objectively better ways of living than others. This is a fact.
If it's a fact, and you know this fact, you shouldn't any problem with elaborating or providing proof for your claims beyond just stating that you're correct.
Yet the objectivists never seem to be able to do so.
>>487724
Humans naturally have a basic sense of fairness and empathy. You can call that "good." I'm not sure about "natural" behaviors that can be called "evil" by consensus.
>>488882
no need to meme arrow at fella I was just saying you walked around his point and attacked him as a person rather than arguing the actual point which was that some people (many, perhaps) view it in this sense and are only leashed by artificial societal bounds
kinda disproves the notion of there being any objective morality in the world
>>488886
My life is proof nigga. Meditating, working out. Having a creative outlet, being more selfless, eating better, is objectively better than sitting around, fapping, and watching Netflix all day
>>488893
You're off in fucking la la land you think the vast majority don't kill because of the law and not because it's not in them to kill. Provide evidence for your ridiculous claim or you can fuck right off. "People are generally good and not monsters on a leash" is the null hypothesis bruh, onus is on you.
>>488897
>My life is proof nigga.
>MY life is the pinnacle of humanity
>MY life, the only one I know, is objectively good
>How do I know? Because it's MY life and the only one I know!
>Having a creative outlet, being more selfless, eating better, is objectively better than sitting around, fapping, and watching Netflix all day
Provide evidence for any of these claims.
I'm convinced I'm getting trolled at this point.
You people keep making claims, saying it's objectively correct, but then NEVER providing any concrete proof or evidence.
>>488903
>generally
how is it objective then
>>488905
Jesus Christ just look up studies the health benefits of exercise, meditation, spirituality, creative hobbies etc. For fucks sake what a fucking goober you are.
>>488911
Because being a piece of shit doesn't nullify morality any more than a corrupt dictatorship nullifies the idea of good government
I mean what is this participation award shit. you're the one ignorant of what is good and life so we gotta drag down the whole moral edifice of society to validate your pathology? The good is elitist, if you're ignorant of it, tough shit
>>488924
how can something be objective if it has exceptions
>comparing governments and politics with morality
fallacy
use your own words pls
>>488942
Because you're ignorant of it.
"There is way to live that is in harmony with the universe, with society, and with my own self" - this is a fact. That the details might differ doesn't disprove it. But if you think living this way and jerking off to lolis are the same in the end because you're broken enough to consider that you're "good", well...
>>488952
>"There is way to live that is in harmony with the universe, with society, and with my own self" - this is a fact
PROVE
IT
>>488952
>"There is way to live that is in harmony with the universe, with society, and with my own self" - this is a fact.
baseless assumption
>>488953
>>488957
>what is self-actualization
>what is personal growth
>what is self-mastery
>what is having principles and abiding by them
>what are the millions of men and women throughout history who have done just this
Also look up studies on mental benefits of proper sleep, nutrition, social interaction, meditation, reading, being in nature, exercise, etc
I can't believe I have to argue this. Oh my god
>>488967
>just look it up
No, 'studies' can be wrong. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
Provide evidence.
>>488976
>studies can be wrong if they refute my argument
>I really, honestly believe a study on the mental benefits of meditation can be wrong somehow, not misreported, not the results just embellished, but actually dead wrong, as if these people were feeling like shit from meditating and decided to report positive emotions such as peace, joy, and feelings of oneness just for shits
Lol you're a fuckin mook
>>488987
>as if these people were feeling like shit from meditating and decided to report positive emotions such as peace, joy, and feelings of oneness just for shits
Because the placebo effect doesn't exist, right?
>>488991
Looooooool, self-improvement is a placebo. Fucking loooooool
>>488967
>>what is having principles and abiding by them
>>what are the millions of men and women throughout history who have done just this
what
you're saying "principles" haven't changed through the years, people have always had the same moral standards because it's objective right?
what fucking principles are you on about here
>>488996
>courage, temperance, justice, compassion, equananimity, rationality, industriousness, gratitude
>durr hurr what are these principles you speak off durr hurr
>>488994
>I feel better after meditating == meditating objectively makes people feel better
ok
>>489012
Yeah that would be pretty dumb of me to assume if it wasn't supported by the testimonies of millions stretching back thousands of years you fucking autismo
>>489007
>justice
changed over the years, CERTAINLY not fucking objective if that's what you're claiming and it's not even necessary to look deep into the past for an example of how it isn't as you can see it in our own modern world with punishment for theft in large parts of the middle east being the loss of a hand or two while in the west you get imprisoned
which one is more "right" do you think, and adheres more to these objective principles people have conformed to throughout history?
>compassion
compassion as a principle?
literal definition is
"sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others."
you think this is a principle adhered to by people throughout history?
out and out retard if you do
this is a history board for the love of jesus read a book
>>489018
> if it wasn't supported by the testimonies of millions stretching back thousands of years you fucking autismo
You mean like Christianity?
Oh wait, Islam too.
Can't forget about Judaism.
Or Buddism.
Fuck, almost forgot about Hinduism.
But they can't all be correct. But by your standards, they all are.
>>489021
No, these were principles shared by those who self-actualized throughout history you fucking dip. You don't even know what's being argued.
Also lol @ some justice being harsher than others, so justice as a principle is suddenly null and void. It's obvious both societies, whether they mutilate their thieves or jail them, both believe justice should be meted out, right?
>>489026
What are you even blithering about
Attesting to the spiritual benefits of meditation is not an argument for your faith you dipshit. It's a fucking method to achieve stillness, concentration, and clarity of mind. There's nothing doctrinal about it.
It's like you're shrieking about runners, weightlifters, and martial artists and going HURRR PHYSICAL HEALTH IS A PLACEBO THEY CANT ALL BE RIGHT HURR
>>489056
The original argument is there are objectively better ways to live than others
>>489046
My point was that being 'supported by the testimonies of millions stetching back thousands of years; doesn't constitute proof.
>It's like you're shrieking about runners, weightlifters, and martial artists and going HURRR PHYSICAL HEALTH IS A PLACEBO THEY CANT ALL BE RIGHT HURR
The difference being that gainz are objective, while "happiness" or "spiritual fulfillment" can't be objectively measured, so you can't assume there is any degree of objectivity to it until you prove otherwise.
>>489056
Not much. I keep asking for proof but anon keeps trying to use analogies as proofs. I keep responding because it's fun.
>>489059
so that's what you've been arguing?
fuck sake I think we could all agree on the fact that eating healthy and such is much better than stuffing your face/ not being a glutton and being temperate instead is objectively better for you indeed
is it being argued that there are different interpretations and methods of how to do it though and this is the reason that it isn't objective?
trying to centralize the whole argument here
>>489069
>fuck sake I think we could all agree on the fact that eating healthy and such is much better than stuffing your face/ not being a glutton and being temperate instead is objectively better for you indeed
By what standards?
What is the utility of being healthy?
Living longer?
What does living longer have to do with the objectivity of morality?
>>489066
>testimonies can never be proof
>if it can't be objectively measured it doesn't exist
>I'm so autistic I can't just take pretty straightforward testimony at its word, especially if it has also been proven accurate by the scientific establishment
>I don't even know what meditation is
>I'm too autistic to discern a positive change in someone's demeanor, so I assume everyone else can't either beep boop
Bonjour reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9We2XsVZfc
>>489069
The point is if you want the whole package, living right always has a moral component, which has been agreed on by everyone from the Buddha to Benjamin Franklin. Just because someone emphasizes the virtue of courage compared to the other guy who emphasizes temperance doesn't disprove there is an objectively better way to live in general. These clowns actually think self improvement is a meme or something
>>489077
>what is the utility of being healthy
Ayy lmao
>>487803
the entire collective legitimacy of philosophers comes from their criticism of exactly this
you. you are so stupid that you have made millennia of "can we really know anything?" questions appear a beacon of clarity in comparison. why not stop posting?
>>489078
>if it can't be objectively measured it doesn't exist
More like if happiness can't be objectively measured you can't make statements about what objectively increases/decreases happiness. And real life agrees, different things make different people happy/unhappy. Nothing objective about it.
>I'm so autistic I can't just take pretty straightforward testimony at its word, especially if it has also been proven accurate by the scientific establishment
If it's been proven you shouldn't have a problem posting evidence instead of just insisting that evidence exists and you're right.
>I'm too autistic to discern a positive change in someone's demeanor
Define a positive change in someones demeanor objectively. What you think is a positive change, others might think differently.
>>489085
Nice not answering the question.
It's not really self evident. Sure, you have the instinct to survive, and that's why you try to live. But what is the purpose of being alive? What is it's utility? Better men than you have tried to answer that question, and there is no unanimous decision.
>>489087
Actually plenty of philosophers would agree with me, it's where I got my views you dip
>my cat lady professor thinks everything is relative, therefore self-actualization is a myth! Stop making absolutist statements! But allow me to make mine because something something right side of history something something derridean
>>489094
Why are you saying that you're right, but someone who actually studied this subject formally and in depth is incorrect?
Why is your ego so fucking huge?
Does having such a huge ego and pride not conflict with your objective morality?
>>489091
Post evidence self-actualization is a myth right now you dumb faggot. Onus is on you
>>489097
Oh fuck now we're fully on track to thiest tier argument.
>I'm the one making a positive claim but the burden of proof is on you!
k
>>489095
I've studied this shit too and I've applied to my own life instead of sitting on my hands in a faculty lounge and asking for proof the rape and murder of a child is "objectively wrong" because you'be abstracted everything into syllogisms and propositions instead if experiencing reality like a well-rounded human being and not a fucking robot
>>489100
>self-improvement is a myth. Prove it isn't!
>here are thousands of examples from history and you'll see where they wrote their method down it agrees remarkably well with the methods of others
>n-nuh-uh!
When you're ready to argue like an adult lmk
>>489104
>asking for proof the rape and murder of a child is "objectively wrong"
Is rape and murder objectively wrong?
Is there degrees of wrongness of rape and murder? ( must be, because you're implying the rape and murder of a child is 'more wrong' than "just" rape and murder )
Does that mean there are instances where rape and murder isn't wrong at all? ( For murder, it's 'obvious', commonly cited are self preservation. Don't know about rape though. )
>>489108
You're not actually posting any proof. You're only saying there is and that it conveniently supports your own argument.
Anyone can do that, it's not actually proof.
>>489113
Dude I don't need to post proof if we're talking about self fucking improvement. Go find out for yourself if you're so invested in this argument. Fuck the rest of your shit, you're so autistic you need to have your hand held to believe people are capable of improving themselves. How sheltered are you dude?
>>489121
>I don't need to post proof for my claims
That's all you needed to say.
>>489125
Fucking autismo
>>489125
Oh by the way
>If you want to stop being confused, then emulate these ancient folk; join your body mind and spirit in everything you do.
>Choose food, clothing, and shelter that accords with your nature
>do exercise that develops your whole being and not just your body
>... Serve others and cultivate yourself simultaneously
Ancient Chinese wisdom
>Do not treat in this matter of self and other. Everything is Buddha without exception...
Tibetan Buddhism
>Who in this world can be called pure? He whose mind is pure
>what is a person's duty? To do good to all beings
>who are our enemies? Our sense organs, when they are uncontrolled
>who are our enemies? Our sense organs, when they are controlled.
>who has overcome the world? He who has conquered his own mind
Hindu sayings
>this is the reason why we have no ease of heart or soul, for we are seeking our rest in trivial things which cannot satisfy. . He alone is true rest, nothing else will satisfy us
Christian contemplative
>I sloughed off my self as a snake sloughs off its skin. Then I looked into myself and saw that I am He
>The true man of God sits in the midst of his fellow-men, and rises and eats and sleeps and married and buys and sells and gives and takes in the bazaars and spends the days with other people, and yet never forgets God even for a single moment
Sufi writings
I got 300 more pages of this shit
And this isn't even getting into philosophy and secular writings
Both
The duality of man.
>>489125
Here, have some more buddy:
>God, grant me serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can. And wisdom to know the difference
Attribute to a protestant theologian, also very popular in AA.
>I have meditated on the different religions, endeavoring to understand them, and I have found them that they stem from a single principle with numerous ramifications
Attributed to Al-Hallaj, Sufi mystic in the first millennium
>The Tao is called the Great Mother, empty yet inexhaustible, it gives both to infinite worlds
>it is serene. Empty. Solitary. Unchanging. Infinite. Eternally present. It is the mother of the universe
>the Tao gives birth to all beings, nourishes them, maintains them, cares for them, comforts them, protects them, takes them back to itself, creating without possessing, acting without expecting, guiding without interfering. That is why the love of the Tao is in the very nature of things
Tao to Ching
>Everything is linked with everything else down to the lowest ring on the chain, and the true essence of God is above as well as below, in the braves and on the earth, and nothing exists outside Him
Judaic writings
>there is a joy that wills everything out of eternity, a deep eternity, a pure profound abyss of light
>to impose the character of Being on Becoming is the greatest imaginable test (paraphrased)
Nietzche
You want more?
>>489094
presenting your opinions so that a link to any thing other than your social power or a threat to be mildly annoying compels someone to give a fuck = philosophy
it has no inherent value but is a step up from something and that something is you. fallacy is a word for a faulty reasoning so obvious that it has been catalogued solely for the purpose of effectively telling off the fifty thousandth loud retard using it.
>b-but muh feelings are universal and immediately obvious from one word
your retarded god damn question has been talked about so long that it has become part of our culture, been misinterpreted and reasked so many times that there currently exist several versions. EVEN IF IT WAS NOT SO, the purpose of asking you to give definitions or attributes to your concepts is so that a retarded fucking retard like you won't just go "i meant something else by this LOL" when they get addressed, despite both people being perfectly aware of what you fucking meant.
that you pile on more fallacies rather than abide by requests for what you should have provided to begin with is a forfeit of every pretense that you ever meant to discuss anything other than your retarded gay-ass feelings.
>>489222
Blah blah blah faggot like you're not arguing from the feeling that morality is relative and the world is empty of all meaning.
>>489233
i am literally only arguing that you are in every way a worse version of the thing you have professed to dislike and have stayed perfectly out of all other discussion. the only thing that has motivated me to post in this thread is your gigantic faggotry.
>>489246
OK dude go cry about how you need proof that self-improvement is real some more lmao
>>489250
I agree with the existence of self-evident good, universal morals and "a way to live that is in harmony with the universe, with society, and with my own self" but that's all coincidental. the only thing I have taken issue with is your argumentation.
what if the source of my intense disdain is a loud retard arguing for my favorite things like one would for things that are not true?
consider suicide. just think of all the people who would never have to experience you.
>>489276
I don't care for tone when I'm arguing with people who think meditation is a placebo, completely disregard scientific studies because they support my argument, and think something as perfectly reasonable as "there are better ways to live than others, and pretty much all self-actualized individuals agree on how to do it although specifics vary" puts the onus of proof on ME
For once I wish someone would know what I'm talking about, point out irreconcilable discrepancies between the views of two people/religions/philosophies (and there are some, and in fact if you knew enough about this stuff arguing for an objective good and evil and backing it up with mysticism and wisdom writings is fallacious from the start), we can talk about it, and we all walk away with a better understanding of the topic instead of "self-mastery??? Que???"
Shit thread. Shit OP.
>>489317
...did you mean to post this at someone else? it addresses literally nothing of what you quoted.
>>489341
What? Dude said his problem with me is my tone, I said I don't care for it because it's not like I was arguing with people who were really here to debate and not just keep spouting the same autismal "nuh-uh!" you always get from relativists
>>489317
you're expecting a high level of discourse on 4chan... just telling you, you should expect this,.
>>488783
agree.
There is only power and those too weak to seek it.'
>>489361
Then why are you taking an issue with my tone specifically? I made analogies, I made arguments, I provided my reasoning, it was on them to expose the contradictions in it besides bleating for proof of fucking self-improvement being real lmao
>>489380
i'm not that first guy you were talking to..
>>489353
.............tone? "tone" is really what you got from that?
are you thoroughly incapable of imagining an argument backed by any other thing than fallacies? I told you that you are shit as explicitly as anything could possibly be done. I repeated that.
I have never brought up tone. you could use any tone anyone could imagine and it would change nothing. you are shit. stop breathing.
>>489411
>muh fallacies
No one gives a fuck about fallacies in the real world champ
>>489411
Go ahead, tear up my arguments, they're not invincible. Quote them, tear them point-by-point instead of sharting about fallacies without naming a single one and posting le epic reaction memes
>thinkers don't agree on foundations of math
>math is subjective
>thinkers don't agree on the applicability of the scientific method
>science is subjective
wow how fucking revolutionary
>>487803
He didn't say there's no good and evil, he said there was no *standard* for good and evil. Which is true. There are as many "standards" for good and evil as there are people, but that doesn't mean that there's no objective good or evil.
>>489448
>your retarded god damn question has been talked about so long that it has become part of our culture, been misinterpreted and reasked so many times that there currently exist several versions. EVEN IF IT WAS NOT SO, the purpose of asking you to give definitions or attributes to your concepts is so that a retarded fucking retard like you won't just go "i meant something else by this LOL" when they get addressed, despite both people being perfectly aware of what you fucking meant.
>abide by requests for what you should have provided to begin with
why even ask me to do this while simultaneously admitting awareness that your arguments will not hold up? there is no question of this. I have told you your arguments do not hold up. you have now said it back to me.
your existence is the worst of crimes. we have both voiced our perfect awareness of this.
>>489500
>le exasperated internet man
Put up or shut up faggot. And I did post proof, two huge posts of them, scroll up
>>489514
read what you quoted again. as slowly as you need.
>>489533
Admitting my arguments probably aren't perfect doesn't mean I don't think they hold up you dipshit. Take me up on the offer of actually contesting my points or keep doing the "ugh. Just. Stop. Breathing." thing like some twitter faggot
>>489548
>Admitting my arguments probably aren't perfect doesn't mean I don't think they hold up you dipshit.
what does it mean then? do you merely claim they are not in their perfectly in opposition of truth? is it your wish to be awarded points for making an attempt?
>This question is inherently idiotic as there is no objective standard of morality.
(this is not me)
>God just once I wish we could have a discussion about perfectly normal, reasonable questions that any regular person could get with and understand without randy the fucking relativist over here trying to make that queer studies degree pay for itself
(your reply)
>your retarded god damn question has been talked about so long that it has become part of our culture, been misinterpreted and reasked so many times that there currently exist several versions. EVEN IF IT WAS NOT SO, the purpose of asking you to give definitions or attributes to your concepts is so that a retarded fucking retard like you won't just go "i meant something else by this LOL" when they get addressed, despite both people being perfectly aware of what you fucking meant.
>that you pile on more fallacies rather than abide by requests for what you should have provided to begin with is a forfeit of every pretense that you ever meant to discuss anything other than your retarded gay-ass feelings.
(me)
after this you reply with your retarded gay-ass feelings without contradicting the assessment of your surrender.
this was also in >>489500 but I see it will take a few more reads for your reading comprehension to kick in
>>489608
meant to be
>do you merely claim they are not perfectly in opposition of truth?
>>489608
Dude so uh you gonna actually respond to an argument or you gonna keep getting mad that I got mad at a relativist. I'm not even fucking OP, if we can't post about shit that's been talked about before might as well delete the whole board
And it means I don't think I'm fucking perfect and have completely formulated the capital t Truth but I do think I'm onto something which is why I'm practically begging you to tear me a new one so I can better develop my views since you're apparently more knowledgeable than I am but all you keep doing is posting tumblr insults like a prissy little faggot. Yeah, I get it, I was a dickhead too but at least I was making arguments
People naturally take care of their own interests, and the interests of those closest to them. In order to care about those with whom they have no contact or points of reference, that requires a system of ethics.
For example, do you really, innately care about people starving in Africa? You don't, it's only through media coverage that you can "empathize" because you believe it's wrong.
If there's "innate" morality then it's one of a tribal unit or family, I would guess.
>>489651
perhaps third time will be the charm. I'll put it in parts for you.
>your retarded god damn question has been talked about so long that it has become part of our culture, been misinterpreted and reasked so many times that there currently exist several versions.
this means assumption that someone knows what you talk about when you ask this dumb ass question is wrong.
EVEN IF IT WAS NOT SO,
>the purpose of asking you to give definitions or attributes to your concepts is so that a retarded fucking retard like you won't just go "i meant something else by this LOL" when they get addressed, despite both people being perfectly aware of what you fucking meant.
furthermore
>abide by requests for what you should have provided to begin with
every other post from you is also poorly argued to the point of being violently offensive but I will not argue to press that because it really is not necessary for my conclusion.
>>487724
Define Good and Evil
>>489705
I didn't ask any question you fucking retard I'm not op. I said there are objectively better ways to live than others and said all self-actualized individuals became so by following these principles, which more often than not have a spiritual/component.
I posted two fucking huge posts with examples from all 6 religions that supported this view, and that's not even getting into the secular stuff
I defined the good as living in harmony with oneself, with one's society, and the universe like post #2 you fucking git
You're as bad as the other guy. I really thought I was gonna get a real argument for once instead of speds being incredulous about self-improvement
>>489724
you did not say that to me and I did not ask for it. I took issue with the post i quoted. I even clarified for your evident confusion here >>489246
>i am literally only arguing that you are in every way a worse version of the thing you have professed to dislike and have stayed perfectly out of all other discussion. the only thing that has motivated me to post in this thread is your gigantic faggotry.
>>489276
>I agree with (...) but that's all coincidental. the only thing I have taken issue with is your argumentation.
>>489411
>I told you that you are shit as explicitly as anything could possibly be done. I repeated that.
regardless of writing it or not you owned to OP in >>487803 and that was horrible. you are awful in every other way in addition to it but that was the first thing to take issue with.
>>489757
>waaah you say thing I no like
Put a sock in it already. All this shit just for "yeah I don't like how you argue, fallacies mumble mumble"
Welcome to 4chan
>>489786
so I am not welcome to criticize you after all
what a thorough surprise things would end up this way
>>489884
Of course you are. But if you think my arguments are trash and can't even tell me why without mumbling something about fallacies and staring at your shoes, that's gay. You seem really mad I told relativists to fuck off in that post, as if them telling the rest of us to fuck off as soon as we even give the hint of presupposing some value doesn't get fucking old too
>>487724
Humans are the only animals that we ascribe judgements such as good or evil to
Everything we do, from genocide to signing a peace treaty, is just reflective of our nature and normal behaviors.
>>488784
This is an interesting outlook, can you elaborate a bit more with some examples?
>>487724
Find me one truly righteous man.
>>489902
in this post you attack someone I don't care about as if it made you not be wrong. explain your right to air.
I don't care about that guy or anyone who believes some thing he believes. I don't care about your argument with him. I could not have been clearer. in >>487803
you attack his character instead of his argument to defend something that is wrong. you defend it with more things that are wrong. you are wrong.
when shown to be wrong you reply with obvious non-sequiturs. none of what you do is remotely defendable. you happily resort to admitting your own low value just to imply someone is silly to attempt correcting you. you have not shown any sign of believing you are anything more than what i am saying you are.
>>487724
>good
>evil
>natural occurences
>not actual abstract human concepts
your question is terrible and you should feel terrible
>>489997
Dude just fucking respond to the arguments. Lol "attacking his character", you serious faggot, like "hurr durr what a fucking stupid question my position is self-evident" isn't a retarded bullshit post to begin with. "Argument", yeah sure chief
You say dumb shit, I'm gonna call you out on it, just like you didn't hesitate to tell me to kill myself like 3 different times because I rub you the wrong way. Be the bigger man then faggot
the word humanity is equated with reason, empathy, compassion, a conscious sense of right and wrong (conscience), ultimately goodness
these are the natural virtues of the human being, and in any degree are the foundation for a society. this is the sustainable part of the human being tgat builds communities
People can move into the direction of animality by a diminishing of their humanity or an aggrandizement of the primal selves
the human being is unique in his development and utility of the frontal lobe and critical thought
the human being can revert to barbarism by "thinking" predominantly with the reptile or hind brain
to my mind societal law is cultural and collectively decided custom regarding the use of lower mind or higher mind and the consequences entailed
>>490023
let me educate you on something really basic yet new to you
ad hominem is the popular fallacy of attacking character instead of argument. it is a fallacy because the argument does not lead to the proposed conclusion.
if I tell you "you are wrong and a faggot", it is not ad hominem. I am merely making two unrelated claims.
if I tell you "you are wrong and therefore a faggot", it is not ad hominem. I am merely making two connected claims, as you being wrong indeed means you are a fucking faggot.
if I tell you "you are a faggot and therefore wrong", I am arguing fallaciously, because you being a faggot does not necessarily mean you are wrong. that is a terrible argument and only a huge wrong faggot would make it.
you argue fallaciously in every one of your posts that resembles anything like a reply to what you quote. not all of them are ad hominem, but all of them are non sequiturs, as the reasoning does not lead to the proposed conclusion.
at this point I will remind you that fallacies are named because visibly retarded individuals have through the entirety of known history used them relentlessly, exactly like yourself. simply telling such an amazingly retarded person as yourself that you are wrong is not enough to get you to revisit your reasoning as you are already well aware of how wrong it is. argumentation is learned for the purpose of effectively berating you.
in summary, you are everything that is wrong in the world.
>>490047
Nice job, once again, not quoting a single argument to demonstrate why, exactly, it's wrong.
The rest of your post is irrelevant. Oh no I smugly implied some other smug faggot likes queer studies ooooh nooooooo
>>488784
You are wrong in the material conditions part, senpai. Such a thing is above material.
>>490077
your retarded god damn question has been talked about so long that it has become part of our culture, been misinterpreted and reasked so many times that there currently exist several versions. EVEN IF IT WAS NOT SO, the purpose of asking you to give definitions or attributes to your concepts is so that a retarded fucking retard like you won't just go "i meant something else by this LOL" when they get addressed, despite both people being perfectly aware of what you fucking meant.
>>487774
is perfectly right about OP being retarded. you are perfectly wrong about "normal, reasonable questions etc"
>>490142
What the fuck are you fucking blithering about already you stupid cunt
I didn't ask op. It's a perfectly normal question to ask in the sense that regular people doesn't blow a fucking gasket just because you didn't define your terms or assumed good and evil exist. The question is just asking what is humanity's basic fucking disposition, stop getting so fucking buttblasted that this thread wasn't an echo chamber of trigger warning: queer studies faggots like you high-giving each other but how you totally blew apart all that triggering moral normativity in OP's post.
For like 4 hours you've been fucking blathering like a retard about how shitty I am and how I should die blah blah blah because I used the same language on one of your pixie faggot hipster friends.
Go back to fucking reddit if you're gonna cry about ad homs like a little fucking bitch. I ask you to let me have it and you keep pasting that same fucking paragraph bitching about the question in the OP like a) I've been arguing it's a really profound question when I obviously fucking haven't and b) like I give a fuck how many times you've seen it before.
Go back to reddit already bitch nigga
>>490196
remember when you said
>quoting a single argument to demonstrate why, exactly, it's wrong.
that was one post ago. now you post about your emotions. emotions which are unrelated to either of two previous posts. what an amazing non-bitch you are, reddit reddit cuck senpai desu.
>>490255
You're on the spectrum my friend, sorry you had to find out this way. Have a happy New Years
All humans are selfish. Whether someone is good or evil depends largely on what their current situation demands for survival.
In a stable and free market being dishonest will give you a bad reputation after you've been caught cheating someone, and will hinder your ability to accumulate resources in the long wrong. Thus most people adopt a policy of honesty, not for any moral reasons, but for pragamtic ones.
However if your environment was more unstable, and your survival was a question that needed immediate attention every day you would be a lot more likely to lie, cheat, steal, and kill.
>>487724
Oblivious, the humans good for themself, and evil for others.
>>490262
do you get all the pussy with your internet posting skills
>>490277
Every Friday I print out my dubs for the week and pass 'em around the bar
>>489933
Tenzin Gyatso ?
There is no such thing as good or evil. There is only how we are, and it has always been this way. We all act out of love - marriage, faithfulness, rape, murder, war, and peace, is the result of love, which itself is neither good or bad.
>>487724
What I want to know is why does Eve have a manface? Was it Adam and Steve all along?
>>487724
humans are sapient beings
what is good is generally the happiness of sapient beings
humans generally look out for their own interests
so yes, humans are naturally good unless a situation arises where people cause suffering to secure their own happiness and the suffering caused exceeds their happiness
>>492033
Based Jesus!
>>487724
>Are Humans naturally good or evil ?
What defines 'good' and 'evil' are changing depending on the setting, region, and time period. A good deed or act can have negative consequences, likewise an evil act can have positive consequences, even if its accidental.
Then there is the perspective of selfish vs selflessness. I'd say human beings are not inherently selfless, more selfish, and it pervades through every conceivable human act. More often than not, human beings seem to prefer to want to learn the hard way, or when its absolutely necessary. Our species is not exactly the best at foresight or planning long-term.
Too many variables, but overall, I think humanity is a massive contrast. We wont get the benefit of the doubt if something outside ourselves judges our claim to being generally good and then proceeds to do a proper analysis, including all data from our past.
>>487724
I think man being inherently evil is a logical paradox. If man is inherently 'evil', the things he percieves as 'good' are 'evil' as well. Therefore, since it is entirely concieved by man, the whole scale of good and evil loses its meaning. Also, if you think about it, don't good and evil always need an anchor point to be related to? Since everything is man, so to say, there's nothing to relate to. Man is not inherently evil, nor inherently good, he is simply man, driven by the very same instinct that drives every other living being: to keep life itself alive. The more genetically and culturally developed he - or any other living being - is, the better he can fulfill this goal.
Well, these are my thoughts at least.
What if the original sin which they mentioned in the bible is our evil tendencies ?
I subscribe to Mencius' school of thought, that people are born good and naturally inclined to help others.
The example he gives is a bandit saving a child from falling into a well just because. I believe this changes if there is something at stake for the 'bandit'
