Of the two oldest Christian denominations, Catholicism and Orthodoxy, which one is most similar to the Christian Church which existed during the late Roman Empire?
both
>>460213
Both denominations hold claim to the original Nicene church so it's hard to say.
As a Catholic I'd say both have valid claims. The cultural differences preexisted, Christianity was different in different parts of the Empire. The linguistic differences were already present, as well; Greek was more commonly spoken in the East and Latin in the West. The differences in doctrine likely reflect differing practices that were already present in both regions even before the Schism.
Probably Orthodox imo
Even though Catholicism has a more legitimate claim, everyone seems to underestimate just how Greek early Christianity was. Christianity thrived in the Greek-speaking parts of the Roman Empire, and it were Hellenized-Jews such as Paul of Tarsus who did the most evangelizing. It probably wasn't until Charlemagne that the Latin West gave the Greek Christians a run for their money.
give me one (1) reason why the answer to this question matters to a christian
>>460466
I think OP's just asking out of curiosity, not to smear any particular denomination as "illegitimate"
Also I'm figuratively cringing if you're a sincere Christian, and literally cringing if you're a "cultural" one
>>460479
Not that guy, what the hell is a "cultural" Christian?
>>460493
Someone who doesn't believe even the basic tenants of Christianity but still calls himself a Christian
Usually enjoys artwork, dressing up, and being on a team. Justifies what he does because the Bible is "metaphorically true" in his eyes, and is a "good moral book".
>>460479
im not a christian of any kind so i dont care what kind of cringe you are, nice personal blog tho :')
>>460499
So, basically they believe in the moral value of Christianity, and see cultural value in it, but don't buy the spiritual concepts therein?
>>460213
Orthodoxy, which is where Catholicism came from.
Maronites are interesting too, but I prefer the Copts.
I'd say Coptic, Armenian, Nestorian and Syriac Churches are as old as Catholics and Orthodox and keep their independent traditions since Late Empire. Still, I'd say Greek Orthodoxy is the closest we have to the Roman State Church as was practiced in Constantinople.
>>460509
Hey that sounds like me.
Orthodoxy cannot be said to come from Catholicism, and Catholicism cannot be said to originate from Orthodoxy, both of which are different (by temporal removal, mostly) from Late Roman Empire Christianity. Papal primacy was a truth accepted in the Christian Church, not the nationalistic mess that is the synod/autocephaly system of the Orthodox.
Regardless, it is a split as old as the move of capital from Rome to Constantinople.
>>460836
>Catholicism cannot be said to originate from Orthodoxy
So what do you think existed until the Great Schism?
Roman Catholics 100% came from the Orthodox. They broke off to worship their pope in 1054. This is pretty basic m8.
Islam > Arianism/Pelagianism > Orthodoxy > Judaism > Protestantism > Mesopotamian Paganism > Catholicism
>>460836
Seems meme-y to me. What was called simply the Christian world (Chalcedonian Christianity, I guess) was both orthodox and catholic. What split were two parts of the original church, both with claims to be the more apostolic church. Thus, one did not originate from the other - they diverged.
The mainstream of history disagrees with you. Sorry, bro.
>>460853
>So what do you think existed until the Great Schism?
some Patriarchs that were relevant to Early Christianity and some weird state appointed mess that was called Constantinople
>>460213
>The ROMAN Catholic Church
>oldest
What is Arianism, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Sryiac? Catholicism/Orthodoxy didn't become independent until the Pope excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople.
>>460272
>As a Catholic I'd say both have valid claims. T
Not really given the profound changes the RCC has undergone. Just like how the Anglicans have lost thier apostolic roots so is the RCC with its rampant change.
The orothodox had no reformation or vatican II moment
>>460892
That's silly. Vatican II doesn't violate any apostolic concept whatsoever. The Orthodox Church has a changed on contraception, divorce, Primacy of Peter, Mary's perpetual virginity, and Mary's sinlessless, not to mention the fact that the politics of synods day-to-day changes like the weather.
A Greek Orthodox homosexual Byzantine Emperor and violent usurper was teaching a class on Manuel Komnenos, known heretic.
”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Manuel Komnenos and accept that he was the most majestic Roman Emperor the world has ever known, even greater than Constantine the Great!”
At this moment a brave chivalrous Catholic Frankish Knight who had vanquished 1500 Muslims on a Crusade and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the Pope stood up and held up a fresh Septuagint.
”Who compiled this Bible, pinhead?”
The treacherous Emperor smirked quite Jewishly and replied “The Roman scribes, you stupid barbarian”
”Wrong. It’s been 1,000 years since the Roman Empire fell. If it is 1,400 years old and Greece, as you say, is the home of the Romans… then why don't you possess the Eternal City of Rome itself?”
The Emperor was visibly shaken, and dropped his gaudy icon and copy of Plutarch's Parallel Lives. He stormed out of the room crying those Greek crocodile tears. The same tears Greeks cry for the “disgraced Romans” when they jealously try to claw justly earned land from the deserving Crusaders. There is no doubt that at this point our Emperor wished he had more strictly enforced the East-West Union as agreed upon at the Council of Florence. He wished so much that he had the Imperial Sword to kill himself from embarrassment, but he himself had pawned it off to the Venetians!
The students applauded and all joined the Holy Roman Empire that day and accepted Pope Eugene IV as Christ's Vicar on Earth. A double-headed eagle named “Church and State” flew into the room and perched atop the German Imperial Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. Dies Irae was sung several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a church tithe across the country to renovate St. Peter's Basilica.
The Emperor lost Constantinople and was killed beneath its walls the next day.
>>460909
>That's silly. Vatican II doesn't violate any apostolic concept whatsoever.
Yeah it does it contradicts previous papal bulls. Most prominently the nature of salvation.
>The Orthodox Church has a changed on contraception, divorce, Primacy of Peter, Mary's perpetual virginity, and Mary's sinlessless, not to mention the fact that the politics of synods day-to-day changes like the weather.
Not sure of thier position on Mary but they have never changed thier views on Peters Primacy (not supremacy). The views of the Synods dont have any theological outcomes.
>>460943
>but they have never changed thier views on Peters Primacy (not supremacy).
the view of a primacy that excludes "supremacy" is a byzantine concept
>>460953
Actually its more of a case of it being soley a roman thing.
>>460827
Then you have a twisted definition of morality
>>460213
Even the original Nicene Christianity had regional differences Back when the empire was unified, so I'd say both Catholic and Orthodox Christians have a valid claim to be continuations of the original church.
>>460213
The Norman conquest of southern Italy helped touch off the Great Schism between Eastern and Western Christendom. When the Catholic Normans took over the Byzantine-Rite Greek colonies in southern Italy, they compelled the Greek communities there to adopt the Latin-Rite custom of using unleavened bread for the Eucharist. This caused great aggravation among the Greek Catholics because it went against their ancient custom of using leavened bread.
In response, Patriarch Cerularius ordered all of the Latin-Rite communities in Constantinople to conform to the Eastern practice of using leavened bread. You can imagine the uproar that ensued. The Latins refused, so the patriarch closed their churches and sent a hostile letter to Pope Leo IX.
What followed next was a tragedy of errors. In an attempt to quell the disturbance, the pope sent a three-man delegation, led by Cardinal Humbert, to visit Patriarch Cerularius, but matters worsened. The legates presented the patriarch with the pope’s reply to his charges. Both sides managed to infuriate each other over diplomatic courtesies, and when the smoke cleared, a serious rift had developed. This was not, however, the actual break between the two communions. It’s a popular myth that the schism dates to the year 1054 and that the pope and the patriarch excommunicated each other at that time, but they did not.
Orthodox bishop Kallistos Ware (formerly Timothy Ware) writes, "The choice of Cardinal Humbert was unfortunate, for both he and Cerularius were men of stiff and intransigent temper. . . . After [an initial, unfriendly encounter] the patriarch refused to have further dealings with the legates. Eventually Humbert lost patience, and laid a bull of excommunication against Cerularius on the altar of the Church of the Holy Wisdom. . . . Cerularius and his synod retaliated by anathematizing Humbert (but not the Roman Church as such)" (The Orthodox Church, 67).
>tl;dr
Catholics are a Norman Orthodox Christian sect
>>462584
Are you fucking kidding me, the church separated because of fucking bread?
Is the Greek Orthodox church looking for converts? Do they still mission? Are their members encouraged to witness? Is it mostly an ethnic subculture for Greeks and diaspora?
>>463259
>Are their members encouraged to witness?
Literally discouraged
>>463337
Do you know why and when this started?
Orthodoxy.
That's a bad thing btw.
>>460854
I think you got that backwards you dirty Iranian Muslim
>>463451
Not sure but I think they are of the opinion that living a good and noble life is the only valid form of it and that people should come to you for conversion not the other way around.
With thier reliance on mysticism thats kind of understandable as reason doesnt really have any value for them.
