Ali is loved by the Shi'a, the Alawites, the Druze and the Sufi. He is respected by not as loved,arguably, by the Sunni. Yet none of the Mohamed's Sunni successors have a cult following in other Islamic sects.
Why?
>>442889
Because Ali was correct and the others were usurpers.
Shi'ism is a political position.
The Alawites and the Druze aren't Muslim. Look at their beliefs rather than the "Islamic theme" they "syncretised" with their beliefs, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
>>443004
How was he correct, when he was properly voted incorrect?
>>443004
>succession by vote
>"usurped"
>>443033
Yes but why Ali?
Why don't we see some pseudo-Islamic sects that venerate Umar or Abu Bakr?
>>443785
Bloodlines and tribes
>>443813
So bloodlines and tribes is why Alawite and Druze consider Ali to be an incarnation of God?
The others were massive drunkards iirc
>>443819
Yes. Because Ali is of Mohammad's bloodline, as opposed to Abu Bakr and the others, who belonged to completely different tribes.
>>443849
Except Alawites and Druze don't give a fuck about Mohamed, so why do they love Ali because "muh blood!"
>>443033
>Shi'ism is a political position.
It's theological as well.
>>443875
Ah, nvm. I thought yours was in reply to OP.
>>443875
>Except Alawites and Druze don't give a fuck about Mohamed
Alawites do. Druze don't.
>>443916
Do they really? They definitely place Ali above Mohammed, as far as I know.
>>443936
They still give a shit about Mo though, unlike the Druze.
>>443943
Citing what? Alawite Taqiyya?
>>442889
hey OP, what supports your claim that sunnis don't love ali but respect him ? because they love and respect all of the prophet's companions with no difference or preference.
>>442889
because shia are retarded and people who supported elective succession were sane
Also, please stop thinking "sufi" is a thing. It hurts.
>>444004
Pretty sure most Sunnis like Umar more than Ali.
>>444024
> be Mohamed's cousin
> live with him in the same house growing up
> accept Islam when you're 10
> marry his daughter
> Hadith of the Pond
Nothing insane about thinking Ali was intended to be the successor.
>Also, please stop thinking "sufi" is a thing
No, it's very real. I know some. They consider Ali to be the theological successor of Islam.
>>444054
It is not that Ali was the illegitimate successor, it's that the Shia worship him.
Also, about "sufi" thing, you clearly haven't read much about what tasavvuf (sufism for you whiteboy) and so can't understand what I am saying. So I advise you to read more about the subject if you are actually curious. Start with why Ali is considered the symbolic man in tasavvuf and continue with ibn Arabi and ibn Tufeyl
>>444054
There are Sunni sufis as well as Shia sufis
>>444200
I always thought Sufis disregarded the dichotomy but held Ali in high esteem for theological matters, more than Sunnis, which makes Sufis theologically closer to Shias.
Although, yes, they eschew the political divisions and claims about the Caliphate.
>>444054
they like umar's actions and conquests and his way of life, they like ali but since ali didn't have any conquest as a khalif, they like him for his hadith telling though, after all, he was always beside the prophet learning everything he can. now, what supports your claim that sunnis differ in their love for both companions ?
>>444200
if there are sunnis that are sufis, they would be salafi, otherwise, if they follow a tariqa like turabia or rifaia or naqshabandia, they are not sunnis.
>>443936
Don't Alawites have a retarded kind of trinity with Ali, Muhammad and Allah? Or was that Qizilbashs or Druze?
>>444306
that's pure rafida propaganda. if i tried to kill your wife, the daughter of the prophet, would you wed me your daughter um kolthoom the daughter of ali ibn abi talib? i don't think so, but we can conclude that ali and umar are related and both of equal level.
>>443916
What? Why would they revere a muslim caliph if they don't care about Mohammed at all?
>>444991
thats what i want to know
>>444206
Sufis are not an islamic sect like shia or sunnis. It's just islamic mysticism. They can be both and will never get along well with the orthodox version of either.
>>447303
Do they not get that mysticism, in part, through Ali?
>>442889
>Ali is loved by the Shi'a, the Alawites, the Druze and the Sufi. He is respected by not as loved,arguably, by the Sunni. Yet none of the Mohamed's Sunni successors have a cult following in other Islamic sects.
>Why?
The death of Ali is hugely symbolic to Shias. It represents their breaking point with the Sunni majority; it epitomises the perceived injustice, oppression, and corruption of Sunni Islam; the Christ-like sacrifice of a holy figure; a monumental tragedy for the cult of the Ahl al-Bayt. In many ways it's the defining moment for their sect, much like the crucifixion is a defining moment for Christians.
Such a symbolically rich figure is easy to co-opt for the less orthodox sects like the Alawites, Alevis, etc. His persecution mirrors their own, he's an Islamic figure that they can project syncretic beliefs onto (hence the trinitarianism involving him, iconographic veneration, etc.), and his murder affords them a moral high ground in arguments with Sunnis who point out their unIslamic traditions.
No other caliph in the Sunni tradition has that kind of symbolic weight. For most Sunnis, their faith is almost entirely defined by what happened (or what they believe to have happened) during Muhammad's lifetime. And we all know who's the star of the show there.
>>447403
Great post.
>>447403
Just to add, a lot of that Shia sentiment about Ali is accentuated by what happened to Hasan and Husayn.
It's no coincidence that Alevis in Turkey pejoratively refer to Sunnis as Yezid - a reference to Muawiyah's successor Yazid I.
>>447453
Any books to recommend on this topic?
>>447469
Any truth to the claim that Mohamed was going to write down Ali's name as a successor but was denied paper etc
>>442889
we name him during prayers with the OTHER sahaba's .
that is there ROLE.
he nor they , are not gods , and are not to worship.
that is what the prophet taught us.
there is only 1 god and his name is allah and his messenger is muhammad.
everything outside that , is created by you and does not represent islam.
>>447403
But the four rightly guided caliphs are rightly guided
>>442889
>Yet none of the Mohamed's Sunni successors have a cult following in other Islamic sects.
>Why?
Because sunni's don't practice 'idolatry' nor do they have the theological venerations of another being virtually on par with Muhammed (like Ali is to the Shia with hadiths like Ali is the key to Islam or whatever it was).
>>442889
>>443785
>yes but why Ali
Ali thaughts some myticism, all the imam after him supposed to be a leader in this. Early convert attracted to Ali because of this. Even all sunni sufi order trace their teaching through Ali.
Meanwhile Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman claimed their leadership through "vote."
Ali was a noble person, but how he handled Muawiyya shows us that umma need strong person rather than bloodline or piety.
>>443785
Because he was treated unjustly (at least from the Shia perspective). Would Jesus have been viewed as divine without his suffering?
>>442889
>none of the Mohamed's Sunni successors have a cult following in other Islamic sects.
That's the whole point. There is no human being who should have a cult following, especially one who isn't even a prophet. The fact that traditional Sunni Islam lacks that is good on their part.
