Tell me a /his/ thing you learned today.
I finished the Iliad today, and was very confused until I found out what the Aeneid was.
Funny how a lot of the stuff we consider to be key moments in the Trojan War aren't even in the original epic.
Philosphy majors are easily triggered.
I found out that george III was rumored to have said
"if he does so, he will be the greatest of man"
in reference to George Washington choosing to not exceed his two terms as president (which he could have done easily)
Also, there was a planned military coup that the continental army wanted washington to lead and march on congress (basically making himself king)
Washington shut it down
>>440062
Any advice on understanding it? I can understand shakespeqre, but homer is out of my league..
>>440094
OP here, I enjoyed it desu. Of course the Catalog of Ships was a slog, and the period between the first battle and Achilles getting off his ass got a bit old towards the end, but I found it to be worth the read.
I was particularly amused by Achilles' daily habit of waking up and dragging Hector's corpse around on his chariot until the gods put a stop to it.
Europe looks pretty neat turned upside-down.
Scienceposting is a thing now and is annoying.
>>440062
>>440078
>>440094
>>440099
there are literally people who get paid to explain homer etc to the layman. Use and abuse the commentaries on classical works
Unless you have a degree in classics you should not just read the ancient author. You should either read a translation with heavy commentary/explanation or use a non commentary translation with a guide.
for illiad and for those who are lazy to read an analysis you can watch http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/iliad-of-homer.html
>>440265
There's nothing even remotely complex about either of the Homeric epics to a modern reader with a basic understanding of Greek mythology; in fact, that's what makes them so brilliant.
>>440299
There's more to it than the plot laddy
>>440304
Naturally, which is why it astounds me that you simply verify what everyone already knows with such overwhelming confidence, as if what you say is profound or insightful. But the beauty of the Iliad and the Odyssey is that everything that matters about them is universal; the cultural references are wholly trivial, they merely exist for convenience and to convey the main points.
>>440322
You just pooped a doop laddo
>>440299
>>440322
>everything that matters about them is universal
same can be said for almost all other epics
>There's nothing even remotely complex about either of the Homeric epics to a modern reader with a basic understanding of Greek mythology
I disagree. I think you need to know concepts more deeply, more than just knowing who Zeus is. What is time(the greek one not the english) what is kleos etc etc. For Odyssey Xenia is very important.
You must also know the Trojan war beforehand. Homer did not "composed" Iliad for an audience who did not knew anything about Trojan war. I quote OP
>and was very confused until I found out what the Aeneid was.
Aenid mentions a lot of stuff that the homeric audience already knew and homer take it for granted.
Look I'm not saying Homer is some complex sophisticated work that plebs should not comprehend, all I'm saying is that in order to enjoy it fully you should have some knowledge, and classicist / commentators etc help you on that. Surely blindreading is a different experience but again Homer certainly did not addressed his works to a blind audience.
>>440334
"You must also know the Trojan war beforehand"
What knowledge could one possibly need to have pertaining to the Trojan War that isn't explicitly explained in the poem?
The basilica was a 26 foot long cannon made by a Hungarian guy for the Ottomans, it was used to siege Constantinople, now you know.
>>440368
how can I say it...you realize Homer's Illiad is just one part of a series of epics that are about the trojan war, right? There were many other epics that (probably) described The Trojan War from start to finish (and maybe some prologue like how Odyssey became epilogue). Sadly only Homer's epics survived. The rest are fragmented, paraphrased etc elsewhere.
Its not that Illiad was EP 09-10 of one season of Trojan War series, but again Homer assumed you knew the other tales, the background etc.
>but I already know the background helen , paris and all that
you know it party due to other epics and party due to the scholars / commentators. As you know Iliad only mentions a brief part of near the end of the war. Hell Achilles is still alive at the end of the epic. Tons of Stuff that we know about Trojan war is not included in the Iliad.
>>440393
Book III of the Iliad, Andrew Lang, Walter Leaf, and Ernest Meyers translation:
"Art thou [Paris] indeed such an one that in thy seafaring ships thou didst sail over the deep with the company of thy trust comrades, and in converse with strangers didst bring back a fair woman from a far country, one that was by marriage daughter to warriors that bear the spear, that she might be a sore mischief to thy father and city and all the realm, but to our foes a rejoicing and to thyself a hanging of the head?"
That's just one instance in which Paris' kidnapping of Helen is referenced.
>>440062
Currie was one of the most underrated individuals of WW1.
>>440407
I was not being clear, I was referencing to the history of Paris even "competition of gods" is briefly mentioned in Illiad but most of it and the tale of his birth etc is found elsewhere (iirc in ovid)
again some things are mentioned many are not, many we will never recovered (sadly) no amount of cherry picking will change the fact that
1-illiad was one epic out of many that was about trojan war
2-Homer assumed pre knowledge regarding them.
3-Many things we know are either not in homer or are briefly mentioned, only can be completed by comparing them to other works, fragments.
you are playing semantics here, If you haven't ready odyysey try to read it without looking at anything, and then just briefly look at the concept of xenia and briefly glance at the pages. You will know the difference.
You never consulted the works of others other commentators but you discard them from the get go. Have some knowledge before having some ideas I should say.
I really have to sleep, if blind reading is your thing be must guest. I blind read a lot of stuff, but when you have the knowledge the background etc the difference will be tremendous. Due to my knowledge The Illiad I read when I was 16 is very different than the Illiad I'm reading now. I think you are playing too hard on anti intellectuals here, all I'm saying is give them a chance If you don't like them or if you think they are not helpful discard them.
farewell
>>440368
Not the guy you're responding to, but how about the fact that Achilles is destined to die in the conflict, and what's more, knows that he's walking to his death, which means that Priam's speech at the end is just about the worst thing he could possibly say, and yet Achilles gives the body of Hector up anyway.
What that growth is, and why it's triggered, is very much caught up in Greek conceptions as to why some people deserve leadership, fame, favor of the gods, etc. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to just pick that up from the text itself without any context whatsoever.
>>440062
The Iliad is not 'the original epic', it happens to be the first episode of a long epic cycle that was recorded.
The quality and cohesiveness of the Iliad and the Odyssey are what made them so popular, in addition to the fact that they were obviously well thought out conceptually. Neither is a linear narrative that goes through a series of events, they are explorations of humanity and it's interactions with the gods.
The other parts of the epic cycle (in which the Aeneid is not included) were not nearly as highly regarded as the Iliad and Odyssey, because they (from what survives) they appeared to be simple linear narratives. That said, they were still important and things like the Trojan Horse and death of Achilles derive from them. Still, the fact they don't survive in completion is an indicator of how much more the Greeks respected the Iliad. That and the fact that Greek identity was inexorably linked to the Iliad and the Labours of Herakles.
>>440524
The Iliad constantly references the fact that Achilles isn't walking away from the place though.
>>440524
>>440368
>>440601
>>440591
How can anyone understand the Iliad without know about the concepts of Honour and Shame and Glory (Time, Aidos, Kleos) in ancient Greece? None of these words hold the same meaning in English.
The Heroes, and why they are Heroes, and what motivates their actions, is also not something easily conceived of by a modern reader.
I can't believe anyone without foreknowledge of ancient Greece would make sense of Achilles actions, or those of the Greeks who let him sit by. Most modern readers would probably think it silly or something, that they would tolerate his abandonment of them.
Anyways, best translation of the Iliad is Lattimore hands down. Fagle was good too but I didn't read all of his translation, and I like Lattimore better.
