>Columbus is evil because he killed and enslaved people and shouldn't be celebrated
>the natives that killed and enslaved people should be celebrated instead
can somebody explain to me the logic behind this?
Haven't heard anyone say we should celebrate the natives
>>422614
he didn't just enslave people.
He drew up the entire plans for the intercontinental slave trade while sailing in the Caribbean.
>>422626
wheres this come from?
>>422626
i thought the triangle trade only showed up after the poap banned slavery of indians
>>422626
Dude was a venture capitalist more than an explorer. This shouldn't come as a surprise.
>>422614
Although I agree that the Aztecs fully deserved what they get, what Colombus did do wrong was fuck over the innocent natives that had nothing to do with those batshit lunatics
It was a privilege and an honor to be sacrificed to the Gods. People went volitionally. I don't understand how you equate the two except by ignoring or being ignorant of the real facts.
>>422619
So I shouldn't celebrate my ancestors triumphs and humility?
Whites are now confirmed worse than niggers.
>celebrating history
>>422702
I never said that at all or even implied it. Learn to read.
Honestly if we condemn Columbus as a cunt (which he probably was), then we HAVE to condemn the natives too. Displacing and exterminating entire populations, murdering and raping tons of innocent people. From the Aztecs to the Sioux, they were all cunts.
Unless this is yet another case of "it's only bad if Europeans do it"
I don't think we should celebrate the natives but Columbus was kinda evil. At the very least I think he was an incompetent dick.
>>422702
>muh ancestors
What a joke.
>>422731
You need to move on from your disgusting and whiggish instinct to analyse the past in terms of moral categories. The reason why I can tell you're using "cunt" in a moral sense is because of your contrast of "cunt" to "innocent."
History knows no innocents.
>>422748
>I condone moral relativism
Leftists out.
>>422750
>I condone moral relativism
I didn't say this, so "who are you quoting?"
There's a time and a place for value judgements: either start a theology or an ethics thread here, or start a politics or morality thread on >>>/pol/
But historiography doesn't do judgements of past morality. We say what their moral codes were, what they did, and how they saw what they did. We don't judge the past.
>WIE ES EIGENTLICH GEWESEN
It isn't a leftist slogan. It is the core agreement of historians.
>>422741
>Heritage? Culture? Psssh. For the weak of mind with no accomplishments of their own. I'm an individual. I forge my own destiny.
>>422756
This thread is essentially about whether we should consider Columbus evil and the natives as well. Just because you get triggered when someone applies morality to history doesn't mean it isn't allowed.
>>422756
>this bitch can't stop crying about moral judgements
Let it go. Judgements are here to stay.
fun fact: king philips war and its atteocities happened 1 generation after colimbus
>>422769
kek.
>>422771
>Just because you get triggered when someone applies morality to history doesn't mean it isn't allowed.
>>422774
>Judgements are here to stay.
Pretty much no. Unlike sociology, or literary criticism, history has survived post-modernism by refusing to give in to anti-disciplinary perspectives and sloppy moralism.
You cunts need to have the shit kicked out of you for what you are doing to historiography.
>>422769
Nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage. Being proud of yourself because of your heritage? Silly.
>>422795
At what point are we allowed to criticize? I'm sure we can look back at a few days ago and moralize. We are allowed to moralize at cultures that are different than us nowadays, but why not cultures that are different because of a temporal distance? I always have been confused at this. What point does it become not-okay to moralize?
Mexican here.
Fuck the natives. Every bit as brutal and barbaric as the worst conquistador.
>>422795
We're doing as much to histiography as joke 0.9999999 = 1 proofs on /sci/ are doing to mathematics. You need the shit kicked out of you for how seriously you're taking 4chan
>>422795
>Pretty much no.
Well you can stand on your hand and scream for all we care but it won't change a thing, so :^)
>>422808
>At what point are we allowed to criticize? I'm sure we can look back at a few days ago and moralize. We are allowed to moralize at cultures that are different than us nowadays, but why not cultures that are different because of a temporal distance? I always have been confused at this. What point does it become not-okay to moralize?
When you start doing history. A good sign you're doing history is when you're reading archives that weren't intended to be public material at the time of their creation.
>>422811
So you're shit posting. Report yourself.
>>422614
They don't name universities after natives
>>422731
>"it's only bad if Europeans do it"
That's the way it is these days. Shit, give examples like Tamerlane building a pyramid of skulls or the Mongols wiping out Baghdad and no on cares a bit.
But mention Columbus and it's the totally evil white men of Europe who are history's biggest plague,
>>422821
So its mostly wrong to judge if material was meant to be private? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
>>422808
>What point does it become not-okay to moralize?
Your view on morality is derived from certain factors, it would be unfair to judge people that disagreed and acted against your moral values if the factors that led to your views on morality were not available to them at the time.
>>422831
They don't name streets after Tamerlane or Genghis Khan either
>>422821
Sure we're shit posting. Since shit posting is bad how about you sage the thread and fuck off while we continue to destroy the foundations of histiography
>>422811
But this is quite common these days. Go to any university and you'll find it rather quickly.
>>422837
So what difference does that make?
>>422842
That isn't our fault. At all. If you can show that it's a direct result of threads like this on /his/ then I'll start to care. Otherwise I'll assume we're harmless.
>>422614
No, you dumb fuck, we already went over this. Columbus wasn't JUST evil because he killed and enslaved people. He was evil because he killed and enslaved people, created the transatlantic slave trade, sold 9 year olds into sex slavery, intentionally genocided people, did shit like cut off people ears and noses just to establish order, was a notorious drunk that designed shitty ships that caused deaths and as such was a wanted man, had a /Spanish/ woman stripped, lashed, and forced her to ride a donkey in this state for lying to him, had a boy's hand cut off and nailed to post for catching fish, and whipped some guy 100 times for not gathering enough food for his personal pantry.
>>422823
Why should they?
>>422850
But those are just things that we see as evil today. Back then, things like that were commonplace.
>>422837
Damn. Maybe they should?
Khan St.
>>422862
No they weren't. There was never a time when that was normal.
>>422862
Columbus went so far out of line that he was eventually arrested.
>>422865
W-whig
>>422868
Not really doing that, just saying its objectively not normal to do what he did.
>>422837
That's a pretty lame response.
>>422848
The difference is pushback
You know those people who always have to mention Leif Ericson whenever Colombus comes us? They're so proud of contradicting the "Columbus discovered America" narrative they learned in kindergarten. It's like that. "Columbus wasn't so great, he was actually a dick."
>>422853
They shouldn't
But there's no backlash against natives because nobody liked them in the first place. Columbus is only getting shat on because he was celebrated
>>422864
Tamer Lane, make it happen reddit
>>422741
The New Testament and Psalms are also important to me. I'm of mixed race and plan to procreate and share my poeple's history and knowledge.
Amen.
>>422837
You sure about that?
>>422831
No one has ever said any of those things you dumb reactionary. What's really happening is that people are correctly reevaluating historical figures like Columbus, who is not worthy of elevation and hero status. This is just rounding out the real picture. This is also true of the treatment of the Mongols: no one has ever said they were innocent saints and pure faultless heroes, but their history is more complicated than their simply being barbarian savages that lived for nothing but killing people.
>>422832
>So its mostly wrong to judge if material was meant to be private? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
You shouldn't moralise if you're conducting disciplinary history. Disciplinary history is the study of the documentary records of the past and the works produced by people studying the documentary records of the past. A handy hint to determine if you're conducting disciplinary history is if the records you're using were not meant to be public at the time of their creation.
>>422841
>>422849
Still waiting for you to report yourself.
Arseholes like you are why Applebaum got to sell Gulag.
>>422865
It was literally normal for Columbus. Don't use the theoretical term "normal" unless you know what a "norm" is m80.
>>422837
>imur has now been officially recognized as a national hero of newly independent Uzbekistan. His monument in Tashkent now occupies the place where Karl Marx's statue once stood.
>Chinggis Square (Mongolian: Чингиcийн тaлбaй, pronounced Chinggisiin Talbai), formally Grand Chinggis Khaan Square, and previously known as Sükhbaatar Square (Mongolian: Cүхбaaтapын тaлбaй, pronounced Sükhbaatariin Talbai), is the central square of Mongolia's capital Ulaanbaatar. The official name was changed in 2013 in honor of Genghis Khan, considered the founding father of Mongolia.
m8 ...
>>422892
He said it was commonplace, it certainly was not commonplace to do all of those things in the late 15 and early 16th centuries
>>422889
>correctly reevaluating historical figures
Think about that.
>>422862
This is pure revisionism. Columbus was arrested for being a total psychopath. Let's put this in perspective: this is a guy that was in a place where he had all the means and freedom to do all the evil shit that he did and if no one else talked about it no one would ever know. Now, a lot of the guys under Columbus didn't care and they took this freedom to indulge in his barbarity, but it was so bad that someone complained and the Spanish crown HAD to arrest him because the charges were just too extreme. Now, to be fair, they were no doubt only motivated by the shit he did to Spaniards but they still mentioned the crimes against the natives as an addition.
>>422902
You're going to have to improve your treatment of the past spatially, because it was certainly commonplace in the areas where Columbus was.
>>422892
You're only complaining about people criticizing historical figures. Why not complain about celebrating them. Historical figures aren't just celebrated because they did something significant, they're celebrated because they did something we see as good. We can't celebrate a historical figure without judging them by our modern moral sensibilities. Is that not wrong?
>>422908
I'm not white and i agree with this.
>>422918
You were talking about Columbus, I don't think Columbus has a statue in Mongolia either, since everything he did concerns mostly the Americas.
>>422907
What am I supposed to be thinking about in regards to it? That history is complicated and often things held to be true by earlier generations isn't in fact true? The search for truth is what makes history great.
>>422917
>You're only complaining about people criticizing historical figures. Why not complain about celebrating them.
This is an equivalence fallacy. Moreover, people in this thread haven't been unduly celebrating "historical figures." And my complaint has been about making value judgements about the past, not about people "criticising" figures. You're a sloppy fucking reader aren't you? Tendentious little shit.
>Historical figures
I'm sorry, but where I come from the "great man" theory of history was decisively kicked in the nuts around 1910.
>We can't celebrate a historical figure without judging them by our modern moral sensibilities. Is that not wrong?
Well apart from your great man shit, it is wrong to make value judgements about past social relations.
>>422931
Who's doing the reevaluating and to what standards? That's just the tip of the iceberg.
>>422938
Stop being coy and just tell us who it is, so we can tell you to go back to your containment board and you can tell us to go back to our other website, etc.
>>422935
>Le informal fallacy meme
Opinion discarded. In the future think less about where you come from and more about where you are.
>>422927
Yeah, some poster in this thread was mad that "we" (I'm assuming this means Americans) bitch about Colombus but not Genghis, but nobody here liked Genghis in the first place. There's no reason to bitch, it's a given.
Of course he'd be popular in his home country, but likewise they don't care about Columbus
>>422892
>Accusations of tyranny and incompetence on the part of Columbus had also reached the Court. Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand responded by removing Columbus from power and replacing him with Francisco de Bobadilla, a member of the Order of Calatrava.
>Bobadilla, who ruled as governor from 1500 until his death in a storm in 1502, had also been tasked by the Court with investigating the accusations of brutality made against Columbus. Arriving in Santo Domingo while Columbus was away in the explorations of his Third voyage, Bobadilla was immediately met with complaints about all three Columbus brothers: Christopher, Bartolomé, and Diego. A recently discovered report by de Bobadilla alleges that Columbus regularly used torture and mutilation to govern Hispaniola. The 48-page report, found in 2006 in the state archive in the Spanish city of Valladolid, contains testimonies from 23 people, including both enemies and supporters of Columbus, about Columbus and his brothers' treatment of colonial subjects during his seven-year rule.
>According to the report, Columbus once punished a man found guilty of stealing corn by having his ears and nose cut off and then selling him into slavery. Testimony recorded in the report claims that Columbus congratulated his brother Bartolomé on "defending the family" when the latter ordered a woman paraded naked through the streets and then had her tongue cut out for suggesting that Columbus was of lowly birth.
>Because of their gross mismanagement of governance, Columbus and his brothers were arrested and imprisoned upon their return to Spain from the third voyage.
Sounds like it wasn't all roses even in his time m8.
>>422948
In the future put both of your hands into a blender, the kind of one featured on "does it blend" youtubes, so we never have to read you again.
Either that or jump in a macerator.
>>422954
It is almost like there are conflicting norms in history which we can compare and contrast in a historicising fashion.
Sure thing. But for now, I'm going to post sloppy opinions and moral judgements about history, and there's nothing an angry undergrad can do to stop me.
>>422953
Well, on the other hand we celebrate people like Sitting Bull (and yes we do name streets after him and build him statues) even though he murdered innocent white settlers.
>>422945
Bullshit.
This is about "correctly reevaluating historical figures" from a few posts above.
Once again....Who is doing the reevaluating and by what standards are the historical figures being judged?
It seems to be increasingly less about actual history these days and more along the lines about whatever agenda is being pushed.
>>422970
I don't doubt that he did but can I get a source on how many he killed?
>>422691
>people went voluntarily
Is that why Aztec society revolved around being constantly at war to capture more and more people for sacrifice and why their neighbours helped Cortes destroy them?
>>422837
Now, they just put him on money instead
>>423081
You do know that he pioneered paper money in many regions of his empire, where they previously had no such thing.
It's lefty logic. They say that the Aztec were great people and only did bad things because of whites. Leftys are fucking dumb.
>>422769
>2015
>using the fedora fallacy
>>424429
Inca's trepanning skills were pretty great.
>>424498
>fallacy
Hello Reddit
>>422731
>generalizing two entire continents of people because of a few civilizations
wew
>>422636
Nobody explored new worlds just to explore. They were government funded and after profit.
>>422731
Yes, many of the native civilizations did horrible things But Columbus is different for a few reasons.
1. He's a single man rather than an entire civilization
2. The scale of the destruction by him was much greater relative to him only being a single man with 50 years of history, as opposed to thousands-strong tribes with centuries of history.
3. Columbus was considered extremely cruel and horrible even by his contemporaries, both Europeans and natives.
>>424616
Also, consider that the Mesoamericans and Inca were on roughly the same level of organization and social development as ancient empires in the old world. Civilizations like Rome (crucifixion) and Carthage (ritual infanticide) had practices just as horrible as the American natives did, yet people still idolize them in the west. The ancient Chinese or Indians were also every bit as brutal and are just as venerated by their respective modern nations.
>>424429
who is this lefty, i haven't met him
>>423094
Columbus "found" america, that's a pretty big step for europeans too. So can we put him on the euro?
>>422614
>can somebody explain to me the logic behind this?
There's no logic, white guilt's just the most popular act under the big top right now.
>>424859
That;s how it goes these days.
>>424616
Like the Aztecs wouldn't have been drooling for the chance rip the hearts out of countless people in Europe if the positions were reversed.
>>424874
Most natives were chill tho. Tainos received Columbus and helped them , showed how to smoke tobacoo, make barbacoas, and so on (they were used to comercial interchange with other people so they believed Columbus came for them same reason.). Just to be wiped out in a few decades.
>>424667
Neil Young is the closest I can think of.
>>424543
no, they fucking sucked, the only way you lived after the trepanation was if you were of noble birth they would stick metal instead of vegetables to cover your wound
>tfw my country is full of streets, towns and cantons with Amerindian names and many in honour of some Amerindian guy
>>422795
> history has survived post-modernism by refusing to give in to anti-disciplinary perspectives and sloppy moralism.
I have some bad news for you...
>>422650
I don't know about that, but important African slaves made sense regardless of papal policy.
Africans didn't die as quickly to disease as Amerindians did. Also there was more legal precedent using slaves that were purchased as slaves from third parties than there was to outright enslave previously free people. Finally, they could get African slaves dirt cheap by selling guns to African kingdoms.
>>422667
How the fuck do you have the right to say Aztecs deserved to be saughtered?? What about the Spanish inquisition?? If everyone got what they deserved the whole planet will be eradicated! Ya like killing in the name of a Christian god or murdering witches is not lunacy... suck a dick you racist piece of shit.
>>422769
Haha that's a western philosophy and very individualistic thinking... nothing wrong with loving and appreciating your heritage and culture... u would appreciate it too if your culture consisted something more than being a neck bearded pleb.
>>422614
Sure, white guilt from sheltered college kids who get their information from buzzfeed and MTV and believe the whole "primitive people intimately connected with death are nicer than civilized people with laws and excess resources" meme.
>>425401
If it sucked why do they still do it in Peru today? They have head surgeries there. Of course you have to be able afford it.
>>426212
>>>/tumblr/
Most white people can't comprehend discrimination, racism, being disadvantaged and being looked down upon. Being privileged is a thing fuck tards... there is just different levels and being white DOES have advantages. So I understand why this stupid thread question is even being asked. Comparing Mesoamerican violent rituals and religions to a racist European that murdered innocent people for greed and written in his journal about raping native women... they're both evil or wrong... but whites and all colors have been violent and horrible to each other. For all years. Teaching about cololumbus being some hero or savior of the modern world is horse shit and an insult to anyone who has Mesoamerican blood in there veins. It's more like celebrating Hitler Day in Israel. And God forbid you give natives a holiday... greedy self entitled cunts.
>>422850
Even by the morality of his own times he was an asshole.
>>426299
>being white DOES have advantages
No shit, in a white country. Just like being Han Chinese is an advantage in China.
>For all years. Teaching about cololumbus being some hero or savior of the modern world is horse shit and an insult to anyone who has Mesoamerican blood in there veins.
Again, guess what every nation's heroes look like from the enemy's perspective.
>>426299
Yeah any white person who has been to China or Japan knows god damn well what discrimination is.
>>426299
You're very narrow-minded. The arrival of Columbus meant the connection of the Americas and Europe. The connection of the Americas and Europe preceded the birth of at least two great countries in the United States and Canada. And so, they'll recognize him as the guy who put a stake in the ground here and started their inception.
There is nothing wrong with European-descendants, in a European-descended country, in celebrating a European accomplishment.
Plenty of Native Americans celebrated their own victories over their neighbors. It just so happens that Europeans were far superior to anything they came across in N.A. so their victories and conquests are much more evident today.
I don't know anyone who goes around hailing Columbus as Jesus. He's simply the guy who founded the European-American connection and got the ball rolling.
And yes, at the end of the day, Mesoamericans were perfectly fine with slaughtering, enslaving, and sacrificing one another so it's perfectly hypocritical to criticize Columbus himself as the unique focus of your attention while glamorizing the Natives of this continent.
>>426341
It's all about region. I grew up as a white kid in a majority black neighborhood. I was targeted occasionally for my race and bullied but I sucked it up and went on with my life. I can't believe how much these brown faggots whine and internalize every single little bit of trivial racism they encounter in life. It's the same as any feature of your body: it's going to define how people treat you often. With that said, European whites are accomodating these days to a fault so I have no idea what they could possibly cry about.
>>426386
>I have no idea what they could possibly cry about.
It's why they're down to crying about "micro aggressions" and shit that happened five hundred years ago to people they're very loosely related to.
>>422614
>it's only bad when white people do it
Alternately, we've only built up and celebrated suspect narratives about white people doing it*. What you're seeing is an overcompensatory backlash against a recent phenomenon. Not genuine strong feelings about the initial event. I'm not saying it's right or anything, just that it's fairly typical.
*I realize everywhere else builds and celebrates suspect narratives about their own states and people. Also that there are exceptions like white people mythologizing about MLK and Ghandi, or pushing a few white dictators as incarnations of evil.
>>422614
>the killers gets celebrated
>the captured should get celebrated
is this what you think?
we all know what happened and whether you mean it in a moral sense as to the celebration of the genocide, celebrating those people just for being people is equally stupid
>>422800
heritage / bloodlines/ it all makes no difference to me , in the end i believe we are all the same and instead of judging by color of skin or whatever our ancestors did is bullshit - what matters is the ideology/morals/ that affect us as being different beings
Can't they just rename the holiday to "America (continent) day!?
>>422834
well said sir
The truth is that we shouldn't celebrate anyone of the past but should look to the Overman.
Replace Columbus Day with Moonlanding Day.
>>426386
The crying here is about sacrifices.
Boo hoo. Suck it up and move on.
>>426299
>It's more like celebrating Hitler Day in Israel.
You could argue Israel would never exist if not for the actions of Hitler.
>>422614
Two words
>flower war
thats where they got most of their sacrifical victims from and are you honestly going to compare war wich every society in history has practiced with the genocide of the majority of 2 fucking continents
also as to why he is considered evil
>be columbus
>who ever spots land gets a pension fit for a king
>someone spots land
>yeah no bro sorry i saw ligths on land like hours ago so the pension is mine, oh why dident i say anything? fuck you thats why
>find the arawaks
>oh wow these are the most peaceful people i have ever meet in my life they wouldent harm a fly, they are so respectful and consider me a god
>fuck it slaugther em all YOLO
>get governship over hispaniola
>gets governship revoked because he was a tyrannical dickhole
>>422809
we really need flags
>>428509
>someone makes an argument
>AMERIFAT
>SWEDEKEK
>SLAVSHIT
>SPIC
>NIGGER
>GOOK
>SHARIA BRITBONG
>MONGOL
Is this what you want? Because that's exactly what flags did to /int/, /pol/ and /sp/
>>428533
t. Alberto Barbosa
you forgot this one
>>428701
Who's Alberto Barbosa?
>>428709
half the posts on /int/
it got so bad mods started deleting threads
>>>/int/52279078
>>428509
yeah sure and we migth as well ban all threads that arent shit flinging contests about whos country is better and whos ethnicity is sub.human
>>426212
Triggered much?
>>422667
I think forming an opinion regarding the past is a poor idea. i)History is cloudy as to who were the 'good guys'. From the viewpoint of one of the several enslaved indians the Aztecs owned, it was pretty nice. From the viewpoint of the Aztec slaveowner, it wasn't. The Spanish were just poor greedy men in the midst of wars and competition among other european monarchs. These men had morals comparable to the meanest people of society in our day. The past was just so much different that judging it from our 'enlightened perch' seems unfair.
>>422831
Genghis Khan isn't seen positively in China, Arabia or pretty much anywhere in Asia outside of Mongolia. Of course Europeans care less, they were further away.
>>428369
You'd be surprised how popular holocaust jokes are in Israel. There is zero political correctness.
>>428768
>The past was just so much different that judging it from our 'enlightened perch' seems unfair.
This. The Aztecs didn't just sacrifice people for fun, they believed it was necessary to keep the world from being destroyed. Likewise, the Spanish had been fucked by Muslims for centuries, of course they had fervor to plunder new lands and kill/enslave non-Christians they saw as barbarians.
>>429455
25 year rule
>>426272
are we talking about the paracas trepanations?, im pretty sure they dont get made anymore, unless you are talking about modern medicine doing trepanations which is just head surgery
>>429462
Nah, the elites did it for fun and control of the plebs. They also cannibalized sacrifices bro.
>>429813
>Nah, the elites did it for fun and control of the plebs.
This doesn't mean the tetecuhtin and pipiltin didn't believe in its religious necessity.
>They also cannibalized sacrifices bro.
I'm aware. You think that can't have religious elements attached to it?
>>422691
>>423069
Some sacrifices were voluntary, some weren't. Just because they sacrificed criminals, slaves and war captives doesn't mean others weren't voluntary. It was a guaranteed way to get into the highest heaven, and the Gods sacrificed themselves in their mythology. They also may have sacrificed leaders in times of great desperation.
>>429870
I will also add that dying as a war captive was considered noble, and its not like their neighbors were averse to human sacrifice, it was common throughout mesoamerica, just not with the same level of enthusiasm.
>>422614
The natives were at least 4.76 times as cool as columbus though. I mean they ripped out peoples still beating hearts for a fucking giant ball of fusion, much more worthy of celebrating imho.
