How do the people of modern France view Phillipe Pétain?
>>416832
Fascist vermin like the rest of Vichy scum.
>>416841
There is literally nothing wrong with fascism
>>416832
Fasciste scum.
Traitor
>>416861
fascism = killing Jews and kicking dogs
>>416869
I'm Jewish and I'm a fascist.
Fascism =/= nazism
It's complicated.
Personally i see him as a traitor.
But can i really blame him ? He took an active part in WW1 and was the "Heros of Verdun", he saw the damages of WW1 and wanted to protect France.
An often seen story is how he gave up the jews, how he even gave the children. Yet France has one of the lowest rate of jew killed.
I'd say he did the best he could do in his mind, to help France in these hard times, while he still followed his beliefs. (I guess, i don't really know if he was really overly racist, or just shown what people wanted : culpits)
>>416896
culprits* (ie : jews and communists)
>>416872
Are you also autistic?
>>416902
No.
Traitor piece of shit, also literally worse than Hitler.
His and the officers' complete lack of faith in the soldiers and the citizenry led to France's humiliation in WWII. It's not hard to see where they were coming from, taking what lessons they could from WWI. The problem, however, was that they took entirely the wrong lessons. Instead of trying to build themselves up, they tried to keep Germany fractured and weak, essentially trying to bring back Napoopan III's paper tiger status quo. The Maginot Line was also way too expensive, building air-conditioned habitats in the shape of bunkers when they could have expanded their military.
He ultimately tried to protect the French people in the Vichy government, but he was a traitor to believe capitulation and appeasement was the best method to do so. He cost France its dignity and maintained what was essentially a battered housewife of a state. He tried to avoid a repeat of WWI, which was a noble goal, but he did so with an overly-pessimistic view of France and her people. Complicated guy.
>>416969
They did expand their military.
>>416969
>The Maginot Line was also way too expensive
the construction and maintenance of the Maginot line cost between 1 and 2 percent of the annual French military budget
>>416996
Franco-Prussian war was useless, Napoleon III didn't wanted it, pretty much forced by the people.
WW1 is a dumb war, that destroyed Europe for no reason.
To give an idea, France lost more soldiers in WW1 than USA in all its wars.
Napoleonic wars were about protecting the country, i wouldn't have minded fighting in it.
Fighting in WW2 was needed i guess, but i'm glad we have not lost as much soldiers as some countries.
>>417037
desu the problem of the Maginot Line is that he took all the budget of the Transmission. Since transmission and building (idk how do you call it in english, Genie too ?) were in the same "unit", transmission was fucking shit and we couldn't communicate, which is very problematic against a fast movement war
>>417050
que ce qu'est le mot que tu veux dire en francais?
>>417050
>that destroyed Europe for no reason.
what is up with this stupid meme?
how is it "no reason"? like, it literally happened because of several specific reasons, such as austro-hungarian power play in the balkans
>>416969
>The Maginot Line
yet he has nothing to do with it does he ?
Maginot line = pre-war measures and he was chief of the state only in 1940. Hes a war hero who was given a doomed country to get back up on his feet... France itself is accountable for its loss, not Pétain, they let germany invade countries as soon as 1936, historians say at this time they had the military to stop the germany, but they (france and uk) let them go on, and when they invaded poland their military was too stronk
and one last thing i'm not quite sure about Pétain views about fascism, but didn't his surrender spare france heavy, heavy casualties
>>417083
>They were reasons sure, but in colonies, in balkans, not in the heart of Western Europe. (Except germans that wanted this war, but they're master at fucking Europe)
well yeah obviously - you presumably as a frenchman of all people shouldn't call ww1 a war for 'no reason', surely protecting your own country against an invasion is reason enough?!
>>417095
His point is that it was unnecessary to fight in europe.
And he's right - and in retrospect it's a damn shame so many frenchmen died.
>>416996
Pétain's position was reasonable at the time. The British had totally abandoned France, the Americans made it clear they weren't helping, France was completely alone against the Nazi war machine as a country half of Germany's size and was losing hard. It didn't stand a chance in 1940 and prolonging the war would have just reduced France to rubble with the same result. Pétain had no intention to martyr the whole country out of pride.
>>417095
Maybe i'm bad at telling stuff in english
I mean, this war didn't do any good stuff, did it ?
You could except some long peace, some things learned of it.
But no, it just a truce of 20 years before the 2nd round.
I don't say protecting my country is not a valid reason, i say why do we have millions dead on the western front, what changed, they didn't get what they want, our industrial region is fucked over, and many dead. for some territories ? fuck that
>>417083
genie = (military) engineers/engineering
>>416969
> Instead of trying to build themselves up, they tried to keep Germany fractured and weak
That's what they should have done, except that Clemenceau gave in to Wilson and George at Versailles. When Foch said that the treaty was a peace for 20 years, he didn't mean that it was too harsh. He meant that it was too fucking lenient.
>>416969
>they tried to keep Germany fractured and weak
Must be why France cancelled Germany's debt, allowed it to remilitarise the Rhineland, and to annex Austria and the Sudetenland.
>>417122
>But no, it just a truce of 20 years before the 2nd round.
that's only because you look at history with hindsight and think everything leads to everything else
but the fact is that the great depression is a much bigger factor in the rise of nazis to power and the outbreak of ww2
in the late 20s virtually no one in power in germany had any taste for war, they did not want to exact revenge or anyone, their economy was steadily getting better (even despite the reparations etc.)
if you told anyone a war would be coming in ten years they would think you are very silly
>>417110
>His point is that it was unnecessary to fight in europe.
So France should have just let Germans march to Paris?
Belgium should have just let them occupy their country?
Serbia should have just pulled down their pants and let Austria fuck them in the ass?
>>417154
I'm guessing they mean the whole war was absurd or something like that.
I don't know, I'm French and in school we learned that France was pretty much responsible for WW1, and that it was horrible and pointless.
>>417185
>I'm French and in school we learned that France was pretty much responsible for WW1
holy shit that is sad
>>417154
Well, no - we're the fight should've never happened to begin with.
>>417185
> that France was pretty much responsible for WW1
Were all your teachers bearded brown men and was your school actually a mosque and did your final exams feature AK-27s and machetes?
what the fuck kind of teachers did you have?? France wasn't responsible for ww1.
>>417213
lol yeah, I won't even go into what we learned about Napoleon.
It's only after I finished high school that I started realising how much bullshit we were taught.
>>417215
>Well, no - we're the fight should've never happened to begin with.
Well then tell that to the Germans, they certainly seemed rather keen on making it happen...
The French education system is totally controlled by communist historians and teachers, therefore he is seen as an evil fascist, since he fought communist guerrillas subservient to the Soviet Union that tried to bring down the legitimate government.
Given enough time, communist historians will even demonize Charles de Gaulle, after all, he prevented communists from taking power both in 1946 and in 1958, and there is no greater crime than that.
>>417215
About WW1 we learned that it was largely caused by French Revanchism over Alsace-Lorraine (even though Alsace-Lorraine was rightfully German). Then France caused WW2 as well by treating Germany unfairly at Versailles. Not to mention France invented fascism and antisemitism in the first place, we spent like two months on the Dreyfus Affair. Not to mention the part about colonialism...
>>417224
Did you grow up in the banlieus? Are you ethnically french? Was your school ethnically french?
In north america they would have never been so self-hating... especially about WW1. I can't imagine so many countrymen dying in a mostly defensive war... and then our own people blaming ourselves within 100 years.
>>417251
i am starting to disbelieve your account
>>417251
>
About WW1 we learned that it was largely caused by French Revanchism over Alsace-Lorraine (even though Alsace-Lorraine was rightfully German)
Jesus Christ.
>>417242
>Given enough time, communist historians will even demonize Charles de Gaulle
Already happening mon ami
J'suis un Perse qui a grandi au Quebec. Memes les communistes et fascist separatist ici n'insulte pas l'histoire comme ca.
>>417242
>The French education system is totally controlled by communist historians and teachers
>>417275
That's not really controversial.
>>417252
Yes, my school had actually a fairly well-off crowd.
For WW1 the official story Europeans tell themselves is that the culprit was nationalism, and it's just another proof that nationalism is bad and that we need Europe. We did read a lot of stuff about how horrifying the war was, but yes it gets blamed on French nationalism.
>>417260
I don't think you realise how self-hating France is about its history. The whole school curriculum seems to operate on the assumption that all children are ingrained with nationalistic racist fantasies, and sees it as its job to counterbalance that.
And I went to school a few years ago, since then there have been several education reforms which all go in the same direction. Last I checked all French kings and pre-Revolution French history had been taken out of the curriculum entirely save for two pages about Louis XIV (the inventor of absolutist oppression and persecutor of Protestants) and some stuff about Napoleon (the short bloodthirsty dictator who oppressed women and restored slavery). The only positive part is about the French Revolution, though it's mostly about ideals and human rights etc rather than actual events. After that is the usual stuff about French crimes: colonialism, slavery, antisemitism, the world wars, collaboration and the Holocaust, but I already had all that. There is however now an extensive part about Islam and the life of Mohamed, as well as a part about (black) African civilisations.
>>416832
Satan
I finished high school in France a few years ago, I'm not french myself, but during my last year we had one theme in history class called "History and memory", the teacher had chosen the occupation of France and how it was remembered as our subject.
The short version is that:
1. Pétain helped the german war effort far much more than he had to (entire bureaucracy handed over, help in exploiting french ressources etc.)
2. They provided jews with more eagerness than demanded by the nazis.
3. They did not know about the exterminationcamp, nor did they wish for the jews to be exterminated, only expelled, in thread with anti-semittic thoughts in vogue at the time, so somewhat clearing the Vichy regime (and Pétain) of the guilt for the holocaust.
4. Ideological supporters were few ( teacher said about 5% IIRC) the rest were in it for convenience.
5. He was the posterboy for a small conservative movement in France, and was probably repleacable/ non-essential for the path of history.
6. The french Vichy-syndrome (never ending guilt, rememberence day etc,) is a fucking joke.
>>417341
>There is however now an extensive part about Islam and the life of Mohamed, as well as a part about (black) African civilisations.
This is bullshit.
>>417373
It's not bullshit, it's an obligatory part of the curriculum, look it up. For African civilisations, teachers can choose between Mali, Ghana, and Songhai. About Islam I'm not sure, but I know I already learned the basics about its tenets and the Prophet's life, and it's been expanded since.
>>417423
There is no courses on religion in France, the school is supposed to be completly secular, you know this. The only part we ever heard mentioned was the differences between Shia and Shiites, and that was not part of the book.
However, in the first year of high school we had about the church and its role during the middle ages.
Now for the African civilisations I remember hearing about colonialism, but not one specific.
In the end I can only refer to my personal experiernce, but you are free to provide some sort of goverment source to support your claims.
>>417373
>>417500
>let me tell you what's happening in your country
There is indeed teaching on islam, its principles (like the pillars) and its history. Meanwhile greek and latin were removed from teaching. It was added under pressure of muslim ministry of education Belkacem.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/vox/politique/2015/04/22/31001-20150422ARTFIG00378-nouveaux-programmes-d-histoire-l-islam-sera-obligatoire-les-lumieres-facultatives.php
>>417598
Oh, and as stated in the article, teaching of islam is mandatory, while teaching of enlightenment is optional.
>>417598
>There is indeed teaching on islam
>2015/04/22
>SERA obligatoire
The claim is only true because the new school year already started.
Also that article is like the French equivalent of a Fox News opinion piece by our nth attempt at cloning Ann Coulter.
>>417658
I don't give a shit about the newspaper, I was just providing sources. Islam is more important than enlightenment or our greeko-latine foundation in France, that's now a fact. And it's just disenheartening.
>>417671
>I was just providing sources
Then maybe find one that isn't a glorified far-right blog.
>that's now a fact
If it's a fact, where's the evidence?
>>417690
http://www.education.gouv.fr/cid81/les-programmes.html#Histoire-géographie-éducation_civique
>>417658
By the way, I fucked up. The new programs don't even apply to the current school year, in fact they have only been finalized in November. They will be taught starting in 2016.
So it's too soon to speak of that in the present tense.
>>417713
The curriculum in your link seems to be the old one dating back to at least 2008/2010 depending on the year, which doesn't seem to have changed much from 2005-2006 when I was in school either.
So basically the only thing about "Islam" is the brief chapter on the Islamic conquests and Golden Age (10% of history class in 5eme, for comparison "Feudal Europe" occupies 40% of that year including at least 10% on the role of the Church) with some rudiments of Islamic religion, which is in fact less attention than was accorded to Judaism and early Christianity in 6eme, and still less than is spent on the Enlightenment in 4eme (25% of history class covers the 18th century that year, though that includes absolutism.)
As far as I can tell there is nothing else on Islam before or since that chapter.
>>417780
>or since that chapter.
Well, France is going full islamic state, so I guess the conquest will be in a chapter in the next decades or so.
>>417786
Why are /pol/tards always hopelessly defeatist and borderline treasonous? Do you take a sort of sick pleasure from shitting on and anticipating the death of your own country/people/civilization? Since you project your morbid impulses and hopes on our alleged Judeo-Marxist overlords and their Islamofascist stormtroopers, doesn't that make them your heroes in a way?
>>417780
Interestingly, official guidelines for covering the Islamic conquests mention that it shouldn't be presented as an irresistible wave and glorious armies but rather muslim raiders taking advantage of declining empires around them and the power vacuum they left by crumbling.
Make of that what you will.
>>417811
good post
>>417811
I don't need /pol/ to realize how my country is changing.
>>417853
So you became a paranoid masochist traitor without the help of /pol/, good for you I suppose.
>>417873
Fuck off, retard.
>>417876
How about being a good sport and admitting that your alarmist garbage was demolished and that you have no facts to back up your delusions?
>>417213
>and they said American education was bad
>>417906
Well...
>>417906
None can beat Brazil. We actually invented this whole "education as Marxist indoctrination" thing, with Paulo Freire in the 1960s.
Now we are scrapping world history completely from the school curriculum, because it's too "eurocentric". People are going to learn more about indigenous history (ie nothing) and African history (ie boring stuff) than about the Age of Discovery, the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, the two world wars etc
>>417920
So what's the name of the textbook and the class it's taught in?
>>417944
No idea, looks like a college course on international relations or something.
That timeline alone is so fucking horrible from every conceptual angle that I don't even want to google it because I'm afraid the AI will remember and trash my search results forever.
>>416969
>>417079
A major detail that gets forgotten is that throughout the inter-war period, France's birthrate seriously declined. This meant that France could never compete with Germany manpower-wise. French commanders knew this and, plus the devastation of France during WW1 burned into France's collective conscious, adopted a totally defensive strategy.
By the time Hitler came to power and reoccupied the Saar, demilitarized the Rhineland, annexed Austria, and annexed much of Czechoslovakia, the French did nothing. This is for a few reasons. One, the standing French army was way too immobile to be able to wage an offensive war. Two, no politician in France was dumb enough to commit the political suicide that was instituting the general mobilization that would have been needed in the intervention. Three, France was hit hard by the Great Depression, it's economy was far outpaced by Germany's who by that tie was effectively operating and gear towards war production, so France wouldn't be able to compete production-wise, either. Fourth and finally, France would be alone if it tried to face Hitler, neither the US nor UK had the desire for war at that point; it was too far away, too much someone else's problem. Taking all this into account, you can really see how grim France's situation really was, and seems less a surprise that they fell so fast.
>>418034
remilitarized
>>417975
So you don't know?
>>418063
I thought I had made that clear.
>>417940
>mfw I didn't get to see any of this biased nonsense in school
Most I can complain about is that we skipped some REALLY important parts of european history [I didn't knew what a Byzantine Empire was until I played Crusader Kings for the first time] but overall I feel like we've had a fairly good and neutral teaching of the basics. Probably due to private school.
liberals hate him and tell children to hate him, which is quite entertaining.
>>417260
Nah, it's true
I'm not him but another Frenchmen
The way we learn history at school is all about self-shaming and guilt
I remember spending a huge amount of time on evil colonialism and WW2 collaboration while we literally didn't study the Napoleonic Wars
>>418181
A lot of people claiming "we didn't cover this in school! I've never heard about this!" should consider that maybe they simply FORGOT about it.
For example, I don't remember actually learning about the Byzantine Empire, but we must have covered it at some point because I remember the teacher asking me if if I knew about the Iconoclastic movement. He assumed I would know because I'm from a Orthodox country but of course I didn't. I guess it must have made me feel ashamed since I remember the incident, yet I forgot the rest of the class or what the teacher looked like.
The big problem with school education (and history in particular) is that it presents information badly and largely out of context, which means you need to memorize it artificially and it soon gets forgotten anyway, especially if you're the type of slacker who hates rote memorization and can't pay attention to boring trivia.
>>418283
True, at least as far as my personal experience goes, the way information is conveyed is extremely... truncated. There's really not much respect for the flow of history. It didn't help any either that we were constantly skipping back and forth between brazilian and world history in the first place. I think I've got a way better understanding of general history progression from Paradox games [which any person with even a passing understanding of the genre will be able to tell you is extremely entry-level work from a history standpoint] than from school textbooks.
>>418067
So how can you be certain it's not a gradeschool textbook?
>>418352
Yeah, school education throws disparate dots at you with very little to connect them, while historical games are all about connecting the dots (so this is Europe in 1066, these are Germany's neighbors, these are the borders of Catholicism etc)
I don't know many lovers of trivia who would be able to tell you confidently that Bohemia existed in the 11th century for example, or what duchy was ruled by the De Hauteville dynasty, but most CKII players will remember.
>>418395
From the contents and wording.
But even if it's a gradeschool textbook, what of it? It's still horrible, the fact that the intended audience were children only makes it worse.
>>418448
>contents and wording
Do enlighten me on what content and wording cues you to it being higher level.
>what of it?
Let me put this on a lower level for you.
"I haven't the slightest idea what this is but since it's in English and I renamed the file it's an example of an American textbook."
>>416832
Punished Pétain
A fallen legend
Fascist dog
German puppet
Traitor
>>416902
You don't know how Israel works, do you? Strong de facto state ethnocracy is a very common model.
>>416969
>hating on the Maginot Line
The Maginot Line gets a lot of flak but that's some real anachronistic criticism. After the trench warfare of WWI, with the forces staying in more-or-less static positions for drawn out periods of time, the Maginot Line would have made a lot of sense.
Problem was, the paradigm had already shifted by WWII (i.e. armored divisions and air support) and things were more fluid than had been anticipated.
>>420183
Things were shifting already towards the end of the war as it was, with infiltration tactics and offensives like at Paschendale, and Operation Michael, people were getting to grips with combined armed and mobile warfare.
>>418482
>Do enlighten me on what content and wording cues you to it being higher level.
How about you open a gradeschool textbook and a college textbook side by side and tell me which one is more similar to this? Good luck finding a gradeschool textbook on international relations by the way.
>Let me put this on a lower level for you.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension instead. I'll reiterate my question: even if turns out to be a gradeschool textbook, why does it matter?
>"I haven't the slightest idea what this is but since it's in English and I renamed the file it's an example of an American textbook.
Well it's obviously a textbook, it's in American English and it's noticeably America-centric. If it walks like a duck...
Don't worry though, I have more than enough pictures involving American stupidity to satisfy you.
>>417500
>Now for the African civilisations I remember hearing about colonialism, but not one specific.
They learn about Memesa Musa now.
>>416845
Collaboration with foreign invaders isn't kosher tho
>>420183
Even with the paradigm shift the Maginot line was a reasonable proposition. It saved money, it saved manpower, it covered like half the potential front, it held against what few attacks the Germans attempted, and it served in the greater plan to funnel the enemy north. In the Fall of France, neither the idea nor the execution of the Line has no negative part to play.
Great thread. Enjoyed reading, especially accounts from the French posters.
>>421016
is that pic real?
>>417940
MAS QUE PORRA?
what the fuck, Brasil, just fuck.
you are the worst colony, you retards never learn.
fucking hell, man
>>416832
He tried to save France from a bad situation. An American friend of mine introduced me to this book. They have studied our fall from an objective point of view.
Given our military's love of artillery, I can very easily seen why they came to the conclusion they did.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0811714608/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0208020969&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1TE4EQZ39AE2CKSEVY4B
Pic related
Petain's face when WW1 and WW2: electric boogaloo
Also obligatory
>c'était perfide Albion
>>417185
>gets invaded
>mobilizes to help a neutral, weak bystander
>I-it was our fault guys
What happened to you, France?
![1450386803406[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/8HvSI94.jpg "1450386803406[1].jpg")
>>416845
>>416861
Fascism is terrible. Its the form of radical authoritarian tyranny that appears when a people are convinced strongly by their victim complex that they are under attack by some foreign influence, some parasites ruining their pure utopia or whatever.
Brainwashed fools electing a despot to tell them how to live better. Moronic.
>>424695
It's probably from a Christian private school. They're all fucking loony here.
>>416832
Old vegetable used as a literal puppet by Laval
>>416832
The traditionalist catholics I've met all thought very highly of Petain. The communists and socialists all thought he was a fascist. It depends on who you talk to, really. But even in 1944 people thought highly of Petain, if not the Vichy government.
