Point out the flaws in my logic, /his/:
>Germany is famously blamed for starting both World Wars. However, I've always thought this as rather fallacious
>In WW1, the German Empire entered the war as an ally of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Shortly after, she declares war against Russia and France.
> At the end, Germany is largely blamed for the war (i.e. escalating a local conflict into a global war)
>Fast forward to WW2, Germany invades Poland, and Great Britain/France enter the war against Germany as allies, escalating a local conflict into a global war)
> At the end, Germany is blamed for starting WW2 by invading Poland.
Therein lies the double standard:
If Germany is to blame for WW1, given the circumstances, then by that logic Germany cannot be blamed for WW2; Great Britain and France are to blame for the destruction that followed.
If Germany is not to blame for WW1, then the punishments bestowed on Germany for losing that war are unjustified, meaning Germany had casus belli to invade Poland. Great Britain and France are to blame for the destruction that followed.
It is simplistic, I am aware, but that's the gist.
but germans are stupid and nationalistic
>>408206
Austria is to blame for both
>>408206
>If Germany is to blame for WW1, given the circumstances, then by that logic Germany cannot be blamed for WW2
How so? You have not shown this.
>If Germany is not to blame for WW1, then the punishments bestowed on Germany for losing that war are unjustified, meaning Germany had casus belli to invade Poland
Actually, getting unjustly punished by someone doesn't give anyone a legitimate reason for attacking someone else, so, no, no casus belli.
>>408206
It takes two to Tango, either side could have pulled out of war, until Germany illegally entered a neutral country (Belgium) and purposefully started the war.
>>408230
>How so? You have not shown this.
If Germany was to blame for WW1, even though they joined the war as an ally of Austria-Hungary, then by that logic, GB/F are to blame for WW2, since they joined the war as an ally of Poland.
>Actually, getting unjustly punished by someone doesn't give anyone a legitimate reason for attacking someone else, so, no, no casus belli.
But if it was found the territory was unjustly removed, would it not mean that whoever held that territory had no justifiable claim to it? Wouldn't that give the original owner a right to get it back?
>>408265
Germany was blamed for joining on the agressor's side. The same cannot be applied to GB/F.
Irredentism does not a casus belli make.
>>408243
France had declared war before Germany marched west, though, so I don't see how invading Belgium makes it Germanys fault.
>>408289
this
i never understood this shit
it was so blatantly obvious that germany was just going through belgium to bypass the mountainous terrain. i think we can all agree the 100 year old document was just a legal excuse to get england involved
>>408289
see >>408206
>In WW1, the German Empire entered the war as an ally of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Shortly after, she declares war against Russia and France.
Going by that information Germany declared war first (thus getting the blame)
> by that logic Germany cannot be blamed for WW2;
Strange logic, in both wars Germany did the invading so was the aggressor.
>ITT: Germany should have just been left to do what the want guys!!
>>408286
Your first point makes sense, so I will take it into consideration.
But again, I'm not talking about irredentism, but restitution. Ah I see where I've gone wrong, I should have specified Hitlers interest in the reclamation of Danzig and the corridor, and taken other factors like traditionally Prussian territories. I guess my logic as it stands would be OK for convincing scrubs otherwise, but wouldn't hold up under more intense scrutiny.
back to the drawing board
>>408328
>ITP: I cant prove them wrong so Ill just spout a meme at them.
World War 1 was France, Serbia and Russia's fault
>>408334
Everyone. The losers and the victors. Cutting you off before this meme gets out.
>>408321
Eh, Russia was getting ready to invade the Austrians; I like to see it as a pre-emptive strike, like good allies do.
>>408206
Lets see:
WW1: Germany invades Russia, escalating a local conflict between Austria-Hungary and Serbia into a continent-wide bloodbath.
WW2: Germany invades Poland, after France and GB expressly fucking said that if Germany invaded Poland, then they would have to go to war.
>If Germany is to blame for WW1, they can't be to blame for WW2.
Wrong. By what fucking absurdo logic did you arrive at this conclusion.
>If Germany is not to blame for WW1, then they dindu nuthin and WW2 is all France and England's fault. Germany had cause to invade Poland, that slut was showing her Leipzig to everyone and Germany just couldn't help but carefully negotiate a planned dual invasion against international law and despite the threat of a declaration of war from England and France.
This is even less logical than your first conclusion. Also, by that logic, then Germany is automatically to blame for WW1, since it imposed Versailles style conditions on France at the end of the Franco-Prussian war and started a fucking cold war with England, causing them to form a defensive alliance with Russia and thus causing their entrance into the war between Germany and Russia in 1914.
My conclusion:
OP is retarded, most likely hasn't taken a single college level course in European history, or even read a good textbook about it. The author of percolated would be disgusted with his atrocious defense of Germany.
I absolutely don't think WW1 is Germany's fault.
WW2 however is. The allies tried their best to prevent the war and Hitler just kept pushing his luck and breaking promises he made.
>I'm gonna explicitly break Locarno and Versailles by remilitarizing Rhineland, just watch me
>O-okay uncle Hitler, we're not going to do anything. We just want peace.
>Yeah faggots, thought so. Now I'm going to take Austria.
>You can have it Hitler, we don't war after all. But PLEASE, don't do any more stupid shit.
>Weak faggots. What about Sudetenland? I know you have treaties to protect it.
>Okay take Sudetenland, we are willing to sacrifice that shithole in the name of peace, but WE BEG YOU, STOP ALREADY! Don't do any more stupid shit, like invading Poland!
>Okay, now I'm just gonna invade Pola-
>Fine, that's it. We declare war. You literally never learn.
>YOU FUCKING WARMONGERS HOW DARE YOU I THOUGHT YOU WANTED PEACE
If I draw lines in the sand and you just keep crossing them, eventually I'll be forced to slap you.
>>408349
>germany was a good boy, he dindu nuffin
If France and Russia's conduct is at fault here, so is Germany's and the Ottoman's for doing the exact same thing they did.
>>408409
Thanks for your input, but there's no need to be a rude Jude.
It was everyone's faults, but Germany in particular, for a large number of reasons.
Chiefly, they declared war on Russia. They went through neutral Belgium, raping and murdering. Just to put the cherry on top, they antagonized the US into entering the war by using America's own diplomatic cables to try and coax Mexico into attacking them, plus unrestricted submarine warfare and a sabotage campaign.
People commonly claim that the Treaty of Versailles was too harsh, but the more defensible position is that it wasn't harsh enough. After all, a total German victory in the Franco-Prussian War wasn't enough to prevent another war. Splitting Germany into two, and having each half occupied by a superpower worked. It's a shame this wasn't done the first time around.
This is something that was told to me. Hitler's political science behind today's history. A lot of it is hidden because history is a badge the nations like to wear with honor. When we talk about post world war 2 Germany we often speak about the laws established but not the whole social schemes that were going on. Germany lost the war in history but the fact that they had better ratios when you speak about casualties that makes a tremendous difference. They had a legal prowess far undermined and most likely due to permittance under reconstruction clauses.
I remember being in the 4th grade and hearing about laws established after the fall of the berlin wall. That gave Jewish resumption rights of domains that hosted them. 60 something years after. This of course went tied to reparation packages.
Hitler knew that Germany was bound to lose and there were quick social manuevers that occurred towards the end to help rebuild it after the war. Germans fled and from the outside they tried to get a stronghold on academia, economic and legal support. CIA and KGB wanted to control this and fought dirty wars in Latin America and Asia.
Europe, until today is the CIAs and FSBs information center. Pocketed Information Isolates.
Germany didn't start the wars however, victor has rights to say who started from a historical context. Some say the Ottoman Empire started WW1. They were said to be behind several insurgencies and staged plots. Ottoman Empire no longer exists.
The point that Germany got blamed was the best strategy.
>>408488
let me reiterate this I was in second grade.
>>408409
If brit's and Russia are not at fault for enforcing their ultimatum to germany, than Germany shouldnt be at fault for enforcing their ultimatum to Russia
Why does nobody ever mention the french invasion of alsace lorain before ww2?
>>408508
Recognition is all it takes for a treaty to be set. Even if they seem farcical by logical conventions.
>>408512
Europe is a weird place, especially Germany, a nation in the crossroads of europe. East of it is Eastern Europe, West of it is Western Europe, South of it, Southern Europe.
When it comes to a French envasion and why has it been silenced, it is because people in the area sympathize with France. Just how Bavarians sympathize with Italy and Western Austria. People in the borders seem to speak the language of their neighbors as well. Nationalism is one thing, as for the neighboring cultures they sympathize with thats a different thing.
>>408534
>Austria and Switzerland are Southern Europe
>>408534
How do you get people not to sympathize with their neighbors, easy. Just show the citizens how secure the economy and infrastructure is. Show them a better living standard and education.
At one point the Soviet Union was losing its best professionals (thousands a day) because while they were stuck in the 50-60s the rest of the world progressed. This caused a huge stir within the Soviet chain of command.
>WW1
>Austria-Hungary makes ridiculous demands upon Serbia knowing they have the backing of Germany in case shit goes south
>Germany predictably joins in on A-H's side when Russia joins the war to defend Serbia
>Germany then invades France preemptively
>through neutral Belgium
>thus dragging Great Britain into the fight
>later on bombs shipping so hard even the Americans have to tell them to fuck off
>WWII
>Germany goes around re-militarizing
>annexes Austria
>invades Czechoslovakia
>"whoa there Hitler slow down"
>he says he has no more territorial demands at Munich
>declares war on Poland anyway knowing France and Great Britain told him they'd defend them
>proceeds to invade neutral Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia, and Greece
din do nuffin!
>>408541
Depends who you ask. It's like some nations recognize the Caribbean as being part of Central America. But don't tell Caribbeans that. But Culturally and Religiously, Austria and Switzerland are believed to belong to Southern Europe. More so after the Protestant Reformation.
>>408319
No nation wants another nation marching millions of soldiers through their land, using their roads, railways, and homes and (inevitably given the large amount of men involved) causing significant destruction to people and property. Not to mention the potential of just being occupied for the course of the war anyway. Belgium resisting Germany was perfectly reasonable, and they expected Britain's assistance as agreed in a document signed by basically every major power in Europe.
Germany took a calculated risk going through Belgium counting on Britain being perfidious Albion and stepping back on their agreement. They didn't. That doesn't make it Britain's fault.
A lot of people say WWI was inevitable after Franz Ferdinand's assassination, but Germany definitely escelated the situation far more rapidly than it would have been otherwise. Invading a sovereign and neutral nation so you can launch a massive two-front war with two of the largest military powers in the world is not an appropriate reaction to your ally declaring war on fucking Serbia.
As far as WWII is concerned, you have to remember that the invasion of Poland took place less than a generation after the worst catastrophe in the history of human civilization. The very idea that Germany could turn around and start a new war after they had just put Europe through fucking hell was vulgar and disgusting. You can argue all day about how unfair Versailles was, but they fucking signed it. You don't get to say "oh well we changed our minds and decided we don't really like that treaty" and act is if you have casus belli to invade yet another sovereign nation.
>>408567
>But Culturally and Religiously, Austria and Switzerland are believed to belong to Southern Europe
They are quintessential central Europe. Nobody considers them southern Europe except for you.
>>408567
>More so after the Protestant Reformation.
>Switzerland wasn't touched by the protestant reformation
Are you trolling right now? Two of the most important protestant reformers lived in Switzerland (Calvin and Zwingli).
>>408206
>Point out the flaws in my logic
history is written by the victors
germany was not the victor
the end
>>408594
Using a tired and overused expression as an excuse to not view history critically is worthless.
>>408580
Yes. But how you split a region seems to be a matter of social engineering. Go to different countries around the world and you'll see how their maps, divisions and subdivisions differ.
You also seem to forget the Swiss guards at the Vatican.
>>408610
Not worthless. Regardless of whether it's true, the allies blamed Germany for WWI and thus decided to punish them severely at Versailles. They, as the victors, were quite literally writing the history of the war. This had real-world consequences as that treaty would motivate Germany to rise up again barely 20 years later.
>>408572
Nah, versailles was complete bullshit.
>>408623
Refuted my points soundly.
>>408610
It's not wrong though. The only reason Germany is "blamed" for the wars is their proximity to our own time. When we look at more further removed and large scale conflicts, such as the Thirty Years War or the Punic Wars, we don't blame one side for starting them but instead recognize that their were many factors and a gradual build up of tensions in the preceding years. Some actors may be more responsible than others, but it's never as simplistic as "Germany did it".
>>408572
>Invading a sovereign and neutral nation so you can launch a massive two-front war with two of the largest military powers in the world is not an appropriate reaction to your ally declaring war on fucking Serbia.
you conveniently omit half the events that led to the war. let me help you out.
>austria presents ultimatum to serbia, serbia declines due to absurd conditions
>austria declares war on serbia
>On 29 July, Russia, in support of its Serb protégé, unilaterally declared – outside of the conciliation procedure provided by the Franco-Russian military agreements – partial mobilization against Austria-Hungary. German Chancellor Bethmann-Hollweg was then allowed until the 31st for an appropriate response. On the 30th, Russia ordered general mobilization against Germany. In response, the following day, Germany declared a "state of danger of war." This also led to the general mobilization in Austria-Hungary on 4 August. Kaiser Wilhelm II asked his cousin, Tsar Nicolas II, to suspend the Russian general mobilization. When he refused, Germany issued an ultimatum demanding the arrest of its mobilization and commitment not to support Serbia. Another was sent to France, asking her not to support Russia if it were to come to the defence of Serbia. On 1 August, after the Russian response, Germany mobilized and declared war on Russia.
>>408627
Your points were definitly not noteworthy or in depth.
If you bend some country over and force it to sign a treaty then they arent god forsaken for evading it.
Cant say much else on phone.
Also we are all nuetral but pretend to have allegiance to make things more interesting right?
>baaaaaaaw treaty of versailles was too harsh
>Brest-Litovsk
reichaboos everyone
>>408635
Huffing and puffing is not the same as an invasion, especially an invasion of a neutral third party.
>>408646
>force reparations for a mutually destructive war
>invade the country when they cant pay it off fast enough, take clay, execute peaceful protesters
>get invaded and occupied later
>abloo abloo muh treaty of versailes
LOL
>>408572
Do the agreements of previous governments still count if there is a regime change though? Or even if there is a government change?
>>408553
Pilsudski was well on the way to returning Danzig and the corridor back to Germany until his death in 35. It was his successor that created antagonism between Germany and Poland.
>>408645
>bend some country over and force it to sign a treaty
It's called winning the war. If you beat somebody so badly that their choices are "sign this humiliating treaty or watch as we invade your capital", then yeah, they're bound by the damn treaty. If Germany didn't want to sign such a treaty, then they should have won the fucking war.
>>408655
>Do the agreements of previous governments still count if there is a regime change though? Or even if there is a government change?
...yes
>>408657
>they are bound by it
No they aren't. If 15,000 stukkas appear out of nowhere then their capital isnt under threat anymore.
Thats like saying that germany couldve forced france to sign a treaty of permanant dissolution in ww2 and then expected them to honor it. Its just false.
>France allies Russia because they are butthurt about some past war they had with germany and want some clay back.
>Russia finally starts a war against one of Germanys allies and says no to stopping the invasion.
>France is literally drooling at the thought of two teaming Germany when it attacks Russia
>Acts suprised when Germany decides to preemptively attack France so it doesent get two teamed.
I always find it funny when France is acting like they were the victim of the war.
>>408673
>Permanent dissolution
This is a good idea actually.
Unified germany has always been cancer and they ruin the world a lot slower when they're balkanized and fighting amungst themselves
>>408679
Lets not get ahead of ourselves churchill.
>>408672
For what reason would a regime change respect an undesirable agreement? Under what conditions would any agreement be valid under a new regime/government?
The thing is, Germany was deep into French territory when they gave up. Great Britain starved the German civilian population and then allowed France to behave like spoiled shits during the treaty. WWII lies at the feet of the British.
>>408646
Wehraboos.
>>408719
As did the napoleonic wars. The brits were always causing trouble.
Regarding WW1, If I recall correctly, germany explicitly warned the rulers of Aust-Hungary not to start shit, but they did anyway. The assassination of Ferdinand basically assured that war would start, because Ferdinand was the man that didn't want war, at least as the first option. I think the reason Germany is blamed is because of the big web of allegiances their entering the war caused to enter as well. Although personally, I think the actual reasoning behind WW1 starting is due to a massive political dick-waving contest between all of Europe's powers at the time, and it bit them all in the ass.
WW2, again, from my own knowledge. I'm fairly certain Hitler was planning on taking the fight straight to France, but getting there through Poland was the only viable option tactically. Hitler wanted to expand a lot more than just Poland. Saying the attacked country's allies entered the war on their part is unjust, because that is exactly what an ally does in times of war.
This is all from memory, so I could be totally wrong and if I am, please correct me.
>>408719
>Germany was deep into French territory when they gave up.
Except Germany wasn't deep into French territory anymore, the French+British army coalition was pushing the front back to German territory in some areas.
>Germany is famously blamed for starting both World Wars. However, I've always thought this as rather fallacious
>In WW1, the German Empire entered the war as an ally of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Shortly after, she declares war against Russia and France.
> At the end, Germany is largely blamed for the war (i.e. escalating a local conflict into a global war)
and rightfully so
Kaiser Wilhelm II declared on 4 July that he was entirely for “settling accounts with Serbia”.[39] He ordered the German ambassador in Vienna, Count Heinrich von Tschirschky, to stop advising restraint, writing that “Tschirschky will be so good to drop this nonsense. We must finish with the Serbs, quickly. Now or never!”.[39] In response, Tschirschky told the Austro-Hungarian government that same day that “Germany would support the Monarchy through thick and thin, whatever action it decided to take against Serbia. The sooner Austria-Hungary struck, the better”.[42] On 5 July 1914, Count Moltke, the Chief of the German General Staff, wrote that “Austria must beat the Serbs”.[40]
literal warmongering
>>408678
I always find it funny when random people on the internet spout silly falsehoods about a subject they know nothing about.
Losing means becoming the victim. Winning means being the bully.
>>408206
OP you sort of forgot the part where Germany was the aggressor in both wars, which I suspect might be a bit of a problem, not necessarily joining as someone's ally...
the investigation of murdering ferdinand met with serious problems because it didnt lead to the serbian government as expected
starting a war, a "just" war was in the germans empire's best interest
this is common knowledge, you need to be underaged or an uneducated savage not knowing it
>>408883
Becuase the austrians were demanding blood after the death of franz.
Germany was banking on austria using the shock of franz's assanation as a cover for invasion essentally
People all over europe were pretty angry about the situation, and the kaizer might have been right. People might have looked the other way had aistria acted quickly (but they delayed for many reasons).
>>408916
Fuck my spelling, its late.
>>408916
no they didnt
austria was looking at the german empire how to act
ferdinand was killed but there was no state officially involved
austria still occupied bosnia, war was not in the interest of austrians, they were afraid of russia with good reasons
>>408949
"No state was offically involved"
Its easy to make statements like this now, in hindsight
No one knew these things in the anger and emotion after the assanation.
It should also be mentioned that franz was the biggest anti-war and pro-serb voice in the family, his death even while holding those positions gave warmingers and anti-serbs in the government a position to argue from, that was rather efective
Furthermore, the thinking was if the acted quickly enough, under the guise of the emotions proceeding the death if the arch-duke, other major powers would either 1)not enter or 2)the conflict would be over by the time the russians could mobilize.
Agian, becuase of austrian delays none of the expediency actually happened.
>>408417
>The allies tried their best to prevent the war
Chamberlain leave now
>>408949
Here
https://youtu.be/6FgaL0xIazk
Easy mode for you, it was austrian warmongering.
Fkin naziboos man
Fagermany is the cancer of europe it fucked up urop with ww1 and ww2 and fuck up now with the "let all immigrants in we have enough space in germanyyyyy ayyy tho other countries should take the suspicious and uneducated immigrants" :)
>>411708
Germany is in stage 4 population growth.
The population is aging, and not having as many children.
Thier workforce is disappearing, and they need to do somthing to fix it, this is the path they chose.
>>411732
There is plenty of eastern european people who would go there to work
But germany choosed a bunch of arabs who will rebel, commit terrorist acts, organized crime and basically wont work just live of welfare
But its good, germany have to fail again and they are just speeding the process up
>>411752
I agree.
But merkle saw this opportunity and decided to take it.
Mabye shes thinking it will make germany the moral hero in this situation.
>>411774
And it nearly tore the EU apart and she still trying to make Poland and Hungary the bad guys because we dont want immigrants
Orban (hun pm) only did the fence and etc to win over the large number of far right voters in hungary but somehow this time it worked and actually did something good
>>411823
Eastern eu is full of people who want to work in fagermany, and it was the dream country to work in and shit and now bumm sandniggers
Fuck fagermany
>>411834
How do I know your a polack?
And it is our government letting those people in.
We get it forced down our throats just as much as the rest of the EU
>>411883
Im hun
>>411888
checked, my hungarian friend
>>411888
Nice 8s.
What do you think of the wall?
>>411916
Political stunt to win over the numerous far right sympatisers
Happened to have some use to it now
>>408654
Of course Germany had to pay them, they lost. Also the sum was not all that high. Also they deliberately did not pay the reparations. All other things in the treaty they did not uphold either. Claims that Versailles made WW2 inevitable are bullshit.
An order must be followed. Sort of a weird German mind-trap.
>>408572
>Invading a sovereign and neutral nation so you can launch a massive two-front war with two of the largest military powers in the world is not an appropriate reaction to your ally declaring war on fucking Serbia.
Wilhelm was desperate to show Europe that he had a big dick. It was never intended as a reasonable or measured response.
>>408206
In WW1 Germany was the best placed nation to restrain their Austro-Hungarian ally in July 1914. Instead they did the complete opposite and egged on Austria to take military action against Serbia sooner rather than later.
>>408650
>I'm only pointing a loaded gun at you, but I won't fire! Promise!
All countries wanted a full blown european war to cement their power on the continent. Both sides thought that the oposing force was so shitty they will finish the war in a matter of months.
>>408206
We need some kind of sticky that answers these stupid recurring questions.
And then put them in the national curriculum or something because I'm tired of reading this shit.
>>415380
>All countries wanted a full blown european war to cement their power on the continent. Both sides thought that the oposing force was so shitty they will finish the war in a matter of months.
please stop lying and/or spreading falsehoods most probably caused by your lack of knowledge on the internet
