Remember this was the preferred weapon of the Samurai. The Japanese loved these weapons, their artisans got real good at making them and they mastered their usage.
>>387664
I'm surprised they didn't innovate them in any way but I guess they never had to once the feudal system was for the most Part quelled and the warrior class became symbolic.
>>387664
Only in later sengoku, people tend to forget they only used guns in war for 70 years, and only in the later time used in a massive way, meanwhile the true weapons of the samurai was the bow and they cute ponies than they copied from the Eishi.
>>387695
During most of the Tokugawa period there was no real internal or external threats to Japan so they stuck with what worked. In the 19th century when the Europeans began to pose a threat to Japan again they did upgrade very quickly, even before Commadore Perry.
>>387664
How did they fire them without mad recoil when they don't have stocks and have such little room for the rest of the fingers on the right hand to grab it?
>>387664
It's crazy to think of how fast guns spread throughout Japan. I read that there were at least 300,000 made within a decade of their introduction.
Didn't they get their musket designs from Portugal?
>>388034
Yeah, the lord of Tanegashima bought some from the Portuguese when they were ship wrecked on his island
>>387695
>Artisans who are the most oppressed can suddenly make the most lethal weapons in society in vast numbers.
I am not surprised. Their culture was doomed the second guns were invented.
>>387695
Probably because metal was a finite resource in feudal Japan.
Any production was already earmarked and their R&D was low.
>>387921
They were pretty small caliber compared to European muskets.
What I don't get is why didn't they cast cannon?
>>387695
They did innovate some, like a lot of European innovations, they were mostly showpieces for lords.
>>389875
Cannons are heavy, and Japanese fortresses were literally just building a camp on a hill. I can't find the picture, but those Japanese Castles you see today are actually palaces/keeps build mostly in peace time.
>>389875
>>389927
They did seem to realize they needed some field artillery when they invaded Korea, but they mostly commandeered/looted any Ming/Joseon stuff they could get their hands on, though I don't really think this was effective against the amount of firepower and cannon the Ming brought to bear.
>>387664
>>388055
THat's where they got their first couple. They were soon making them in their tens of thousands and they worked out proper sights
>>387664
I was under the impression it was dishonorable for a samurai to use a weapon that a peasant could learn to operate in weeks instead of a lifetime of training.
>>387695
>they never improved on them
There wasnt a large civil kusket war after the boshin.
>>390685
A peasant can learn a sword in a week. Cant master it though.
>>390776
Learning to swing a sword using it in combat are different though. Not only that, you're not truly defeating your opponent in an honorable fashion either, simple pull of a trigger, it reeks of cowardice in an entire class of people who pride themselves with martial ability.
>>390685
That's a very weeaboo way to look at it, weeaboo meaning obsession with romanticized Japanese history. In reality, samurai fucking loved guns; Oda Nobunaga might as well have jerked off by fucking one's barrel. The tanegashima replaced the bow so that the samurai's standard armament was a tanegashima and a yari, or spear. After a while, it was only the tanegashima, if the particular domain could afford it.
>>390818
lol
The samurai are soldiers. Sure, they may make a big fuss about honor while in court, but they were practical solders on the field, especially in times of warfare like the Sengoku. During times like those, samurai would betray their lords and join others when it was opportune to do so and fight however they could to where they wouldn't die. It depends on the individual, sure, but for the average samurai honor didn't matter squat when a battle started.
During the Edo period, shooting was even one of the many Japanese martial arts, next to the Kenjutsu (way of the sword) and yumijutsu (way of the bow). It was called Hōjutsu, the way of shooting/the art of gunnery. Bureaucrat samurai practiced these things to keep up appearances as being "warrior elite."
>>390859
>>390859
I'm not trying to come off as a weeaboo, I don't think it's entirely untrue either. I do agree that they were used widely. I only say it because it's the impression I've got from reading Japanese history.
I've also read that the entire idea of samurai was far warped from it's original ways by the time firearms were beginning to arrive.
Maybe I am wrong, I don't know. Tell me more things.
Bushido beyond "obey and respect your superiors, do your duties efficiently and effectively, be frugal and show general restraint" is late meiji period construct anyway.
>>388806
The standard caliber (weight rather than bore diameter based) for a tanegashima matchlock was 8-10 monme, or about 28 to 35 grams
>>390928
I didn't mean weeaboo in an insulting way, just a view of history colored by modern pop culture.
But there isn't really much out there suggesting the Japanese during the Sengoku (when the Tanegashima was introduced) stuck up their nose about how using guns was dishonorable. They most likely existed, but the Sengoku was a period of chaos. That's when things like honorable conduct disappear the most, when you could likely lose your land and your life if you were too courteous. Guns were widely adopted, even if some lords likely did consider them useless and offensively foreign. They were matchlocks, after all, and a good archer could outshoot a Tanegashima. They were easy to train with, so they were given to common soldiers, much like why guns spread in Europe. Either way, the samurai may have turned up their nose, but they used them on the battlefield.
You are right about the idea of the samurai being warped from their original incarnation, however. After all, originally the Emperor ruled, with a Chinese style Confucian bureaucracy and everything. However, just like China at times, their army was shit. And the Emperor didn't control all of Japan at this point (the 7th century). To conquer the Emishi in the north, the Emperor basically just looked at regional clans of nobles and said "hey, go conquer that shit." And they did.
As these early samurai clans (clans of regional nobles and even imperial relatives enfiefed) started to amass more land and military power, they began to exude influence at court, even supporting certain heirs to the imperial throne over others. They even began marrying their women to the Emperor to control him. By the 12th century, these clans were internal politics. Taira no Kiyomori coup'd the central government and reduced Emps to a figurehead, and that was that. They became feudal lords rather than mere subservient warriors.
Also the Sengoku was like a century+ long civil war, so yeah, shit changes in times like that.
>>391038
Basically, the samurai went from mounted knights to being the entire feudal/ruling class. Samurai soldiers used a variety of different weapons, from classic horse archery to spears to, yes, guns in the later Sengoku. They were very practical before the Edo period.
>>391013
This is also true to some extent, but I would say the late Edo rather than the late Meiji. Well, the late Meiji is when it was enshrined in society, but what we would call our idea of Bushido emerged as one crazy dude's book in the 1700's. Whenever the 47 Ronin executed their plan and got revenge, he (Yamamoto Tsunetomo) harrumphed and said that they violated Bushido by waiting for and planning revenge rather than charging ahead immediately and dying valiantly in the name of their lord.
>>390879
It's interesting that the butt is resting against their shoulder in this drawing. From transcripts in the Sengoku, the Japanese pressed the butts against their cheek for some reason.
>>387664
BO-HIYA: rocket-launcher matchlocks used by samurai.
Just imagine that, with the right set of circunstances, one could become a muskteer-pirate-ronin in real life, without any of the "rule of cool".
>>391038
>Either way, the samurai may have turned up their nose, but they used them on the battlefield.
That cleared things up a bit. I guess that what I might have been trying to say. Also it made sense in my head that a guy who practices with a sword for his whole life might be disgruntled about being shot by common soldiery.
>>391062
>but what we would call our idea of Bushido emerged as one crazy dude's book in the 1700's.
Kind of interesting side note. I don't how long dictionaries have existed in Japan but Bushido doesn't appear in any prior to 1900.
>>389927
>>389960
Did they experiment with captured Korean and Chinese cannon? I'm sure they had access to Portuguese, Spanish, and Dutch ones as well. Because it'd be interesting what sort of synthesis they'd develop after studying the various metallurgy and designs between them.
The Tokugawa Shogunate even built Western-styled galleons like the San Juan Bautista so it's not like they were incapable of developing up-to-date tech.
>>388020
At one point, Japan had more guns than any other nation in the 16th century. Imagine if they hadn't given up on it?
I never understood why the Tokugawa clan insisted on isolation. Commerce greatly boosted Japan's infrastructure and coffers. They could always get rid of extra soldiers by sending them as mercenaries in Southeast Asia like a couple did in history.
And it boggles my mind that an island nation DIDN'T develop a navy to repel invaders. They're lucky as fuck somebody else didn't come and go Norman Conquest on their asses in the Age of Exploration or the hey-day of Western Imperialism.
>>391111
Bushido was formulated because samurai were needless in post-Sekigahara Japan. They were a warrior class that didn't have any wars to fight so they kept up their martial training while instituting a bullshit code to live by.
There's a great film called The Twilight Samurai. It really sheds light on how samurai weren't these uber-warriors, but bureaucrats in the pre-Perry era.
>>391114
>I never understood why the Tokugawa clan insisted on isolation.
China did the same thing. I think we could've been dicked hard by the east if they never went into isolation.
>>391114
>Did they experiment with captured Korean and Chinese cannon?
The first significant cannon usage in Japan was by Tokugawa during the East/West Civil War.
He bought it from the English. So much so that the English Merchants stuck with Tokugawa for the deals gave blow by blow accounts of the siege of Osaka to Yurop.
But generally, premodern Japan sucked at the artillery department.
....actually, they sucked at modern artillery too. They used field guns...in WWII.
>>391132
The Ming Dynasty as well as the Qing had a vast landmass to cover. They had to deal with the nomadic steppe tribes and their own people. Plus in the case of the Ming, it was probably a backlash to Mongol domination, hence why they limited foreign contact.
Unlike China, Japan was always willing to learn and adapt from other countries since it was a younger civilization. If Nobunaga hadn't died, I'm fairly certain he would've consolidated Japan under his rule and wouldn't go to a pointless war in Korea like Hideyoshi did.
A modernized Japan in the 17th and 18th centuries would be EXTREMELY interesting. They could've colonized Australia and the Pacific Islands if they had the chance.
>>391148
Oh yeah I forgot about the English presence in Japan in the 17th century.
>....actually, they sucked at modern artillery too. They used field guns...in WWII.
Japan actually had a good artillery corps from 1895 to the 1910's. It was because they never experienced WWI that they clung to outdated doctrine and they didn't have to utilize batteries that much against the Chinese in the 1930's and 1940's.
>>391122
That sounds really interesting and kind of a let down at the same time.
I do remember reading that they many just sat around in business and talked about wars their daddy's daddy fought. It's a boring end to samurai.
>>391150
This the kind of thing that would make me a weeaboo.
>>391159
I also remember reading that I think the Russians laughed at their retarded coastal battery positioning when they were just starting modernization.
>>391172
The thing that The Last Samurai got wrong is that viewers assume that the warrior class just died off. In actuality, they became part of the new Meiji reign by joining the modernized army and navy as well as political positions and commerce, industry, finance.
>>391114
I found my picture, you can also see a more permanent version of fortifications in >>391148
It pretty much explains why cannons sucked for Japanese. The walls were very small. They just flattened out hill tops and extended them, making plateaus. There's very little wall to shoot, it's mostly just high ground. Even if you destroyed the wall at the top, it would not make it any easier to scale or penetrate, you just destroy the defender's cover. Basically, the only things you could destroy with a cannon were the equivalent to hoardings. Then the fact that fortifications were always on high ground made it hard to move artillery around.
>>391190
They also should've called it saigo no samurai but it was pretty cool, wasn't it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRcFxGxNgIA
>>391114
>Did they experiment with captured Korean and Chinese cannon?
The late 16th century Ming army was relying very much on Dutch and Portuguese breech-loading cannon, since their own tech had fallen quite behind at that point. I imagine the Japanese were quite familiar with them (as you've alluded to) but were probably not used to lugging around the far larger types the Chinese were bringing to bear. I don't think they ever tried experimenting per se with captured Chinese or Korean stuff since the Japanese were a lot more wary about taking the Ming army head on once they were literally blasted out of Pyongyang and (presumably) Kaesong. I don't recall the Japanese relying too much on artillery to win siege or field battles throughout the rest of the Imjin War.
>>391150
I'd make the case for the Ming dynasty under Yongle being a bit more open to foreign contact--had state support remained for Zheng He's treasure voyages, the Ming might have extended their maritime influence a lot further than they did. It's kind of staggering how much larger the treasure fleet's ships were than European equivalents at the time.
>>391238
Those voyages were also expensive as fuck and of no practical use. They were glorified tours of Ming power so that they could announce to the world that the Han were back in business.
And yeah, those ships were amazing. Chinese ship construction was quite advanced for centuries. They even grew fresh fruits and vegetables to prevent scurvy on those things.
>>391150
Nobunaga would go to a pointful war with Korea, considering he actually wanted to conquer shit, not just send away rival forces away from Japan.
>>391238
>The late 16th century Ming army was relying very much on Dutch and Portuguese breech-loading cannon, since their own tech had fallen quite behind at that point.
Actually they were producing their own. It just looks like they're relying on Dutch and Portuguese breech loaders because they were making copies off them. They rarely bought em.
Also like the Japanese with their muskets, the Chinese tinkered with Western cannons as well. Here's an example: the "10,000 Victories Frankish Gun." It's basically a very large matchlock musket that doubles as mobile light artillery. The gun mechanism and stock is separated from the barrels, because its method of loading was to be inserted with preloaded barrels. Fire the gun once, remove the barrel, and slot another pre-loaded barrel into the stock.
>>391256
There was no reason to destroy the evidence, cut contact and stop exploration though.
The practical use would've come later with established colonies all over before Europeans.
>>391266
>Actually they were producing their own. It just looks like they're relying on Dutch and Portuguese breech loaders because they were making copies off them. They rarely bought em.
Yeah that's kinda what I meant, I should've specified. A lot of reverse-engineering was going on.
>>391259
Why go against a nation that's technologically on-par with you when there's easier prizes south? Taiwan and the Philippines would be better prospects. Even with the Spanish garrison in the Philippines, the Japanese would have superior numbers and better logistics to subjugate Luzon (the main base of Spanish control). Spain was already dealing with war against the Netherlands and England so they probably couldn't send a relief force in time.
>>387664
i fucking love these things so much. heres a pic of me holding one at a collectors show. Wish i had the cash to purchase it but it was also possibly missing parts as well. pardon the black box
>>391278
Could the Japanese at the time really comprehended what a war with the Netherlands and England meant for the Spanish strategically and ever come up with decision of whether it was advantageous to them or not?
Not saying it wasn't in their grasp or anything
>>391301
Was that an authentic one?
>>391278
>Even with the Spanish garrison in the Philippines, the Japanese would have superior numbers and better logistics to subjugate Luzon (the main base of Spanish control)
By 1590's to 1600's, any Japanese invasion of the Philippines wouldve been ludicrous.
For starters, they were navally outgunned by the Spaniards. Those Spanish galleons & galleys that just recently cleared the Islands off Chinese and Japanese pirates were far more Superior to Japanese naval tech. And Chinese pirates tended to be the more difficult of the two due to cannon usage.
Furthermore, while Spain's colonial presence in the Philippines was just "A few spanish forts & garrison + subject Flips + allied Flip tribes" a lot of the natives were already staunchly Catholic. So much so that when Netherlands sent a fleet to invade the place in the 1600's, the Flips stopped infighting/bitching about Spanish rule and rallied behind their Catholic overlords against the Protestants who they've been hearing all sorts of shit about. Even the tribes who were just allied but not subjugated but were led by Catholic chieftains pitched in the fight.
In addition to all this is jungle fighting. The Spaniards who have been stationed there for 50 years now and their pet local warriors are quite well versed in it
So no, it wouldn't be the case of Japan outnumbering and overpowering Spanish Philippines by a wide margin really.
>>391322
The Japanese immediately understood that the English and Dutch practiced a different form of Christianity than the Portuguese and Spanish. Not to mention the English and Dutch were at odds with the Iberians.
Japanese aren't that dense to have a bit of a nuanced view toward Europeans. They know that Spain is on the other side of the world and that preparing a reconquest would be monumental in organizing a fleet, soldiers, and supplies.
>>391326
Yep, Edo period from what I was told. It was quite light. It honestly wasn't terribly expensive for what it was.
>>391326
>>391339
here's another pic.
>>391331
I'm well aware the Japanese can't steam-roll their way into the Philippines. I'm saying that there are better options than invading Korea.
Hell it took centuries for the Spanish to subdue the whole archipelago. Especially against the Moros.
>>391335
Well of course they understand that but I'm talking more about the politics of Europe, how wars play out, what other countries, nations or events could play have an overall effect in a war with Spain. Basically they wouldn't have really understood the enemy in it's whole. It's not meant to be a toppling argument, just something to think about.
>>391346
are those some Arisakas in the background?
>>391376
probably i also guarantee they all had chrysanthemums too. this was at a truly massive collectors show and this particular table was all japanese stuff. honestly his stuff would have been pretty unremarkable compared to some of the other shit on display at that show. any /his/ or /k/ fan would cream their pants at some of the amazing pieces of firearm and world history on display. Its always a treat. example: this smith and wesson
>>391190
They also got the whole "rebels won't use guns" thing. Obviously it was done for better film making but factually the rebels used guns too.
I did have the discussion before in that it was funny to say that they abandoned guns as a symbol of rejecting the west when the Japanese at the time very much considered guns to be their own.
They were chic and European when they first showed up, sure, but not three hundred years later.
>>391393
Neat. How much were the Arisakas and the Matchlock? I've heard without the 'mum they're about the same price as a mosin (~$150), but the only one I've ever seen with an intact chrysanthemum was around $300.
>>391570
they've gone up quite a bit. without it is probably 300 and with they are close to 600 maybe more depending.
>>391570
the matchlock was 1600 which was surprising they really dont go for much because dealers have no idea about the history so they cant pedigree the particular models so they just guess 90% of the time
>>388450
>Artisans who are the most oppressed
I thought the Merchants were the shit tier class because Artisans actually made things with their hands.
>>391591
Huh not as much as I expected. I'm guessing it wasn't safe to shoot?
>>391630
i would say very much no it was not. not to mention the fact it might have been missing some critical pieces. you wouldn't wanna shoot something that old anyway plus if it blows up you're out 1600 bucks and destroyed a piece of history plus possibly lost a few fingers. there are companies that make much more affordable modern replicas of these should you want to shoot one
>>391644
You'd be surprised. I can't speak for the old matchlocks, but I know Arisakas are overengineered to a ridiculous degree.
Like some fudd sporterized an old 6.5mm one and ran a bunch of .308 through it before anyone told him that he should be dead. They ended up doing some tests on it to see what the deal was. Turns out the bullet got squeezed through and was a millimeter or two longer when it came out the barrel.
>>391597
As far as the official classes went, yes. First you had the Emperor, then the Samurai (who lead), then Peasants (who feed everyone), then Artisans (who make nice things) and then merchants (who buy things, move them about and sell them). You also had an underclass of people who did the really shit jobs.
>>391038
>They were matchlocks, after all, and a good archer could outshoot a Tanegashima. They were easy to train with, so they were given to common soldiers, much like why guns spread in Europe.
Can the training meme die already? Musketeers were thoroughly and exhaustively drilled. Muskets were used because they were better weapons.
The Japanese used funs because they were better than bows. Miyamoto Musashi says in the Book of Five Rings that the gun is better than the bow, and the bow is useless past 40 yards. By contrast, The Book of Corrections tells of muskets hitting targets from hundreds of paces away, well out of bow range. During the invasion, the Korean king said that the musket was five times more effective than the bow. The Koreans used every captured musket and kept Japanese prisoners alive so that they could learn to make their own. The Koreans already had lots of archers, so they would not have bothered if the musket was inferior. The musketeers were also paid better.
>>393394
Japanese bows were laughably bad. They pales in comparison to horn composite or self longbows that the Chinese and Koreans fielded.
>>393848
If you say so. Records from the Imjin war still show that the muskets were significantly out-performing Korean bows.
>>393848
Koreans still got their shit kicked in by Japanese Muskets. So much so that they broke in the first volleys.
Also the Chinese used muskets as well VS. the Japs. Although in a looser formation due to their experience in Steppe Shitfights as opposed to pike and shot.
>>391220
Yes. Given Japan's geography, it would not make much of a sense to have them building European style castles.
>>391114
>At one point, Japan had more guns than any other nation in the 16th century
pretty sure the mughals and the ottomans have more
>>394738
Cannons but there's actual studies that document Warring States Japan having a ton of arquebuses compared to other polities. Remember this a nation of rival warlords fighting tooth and nail for over a century. Once guns wrecked the Takeda cavalry, all the daimyo took gunpowder weapons.
After 1600, the European powers as well as the 3 major Muslim empires definitely eclipsed Japan since they had no more wars to speak of.
>>394360
There are also many sources, from different countries, which describe the Chinese as awful musketeers, unable to aim properly and afraid of the recoil of their guns. If there's any truth to it then it's no wonder the Manchus overran them so easily.
>>387664
Preferred weapon was that of the Bow and Arrow atop an equestrian. It was only after contact with the Portuguese in the 1400s that they adopted the musket. Even still, they only did so because they found themselves cut down far too quickly in all of their advances with the sword. It's worth mentioning that the Chinese created gunpowder but its use at that time was strictly for fireworks. The West, as Victor Davis Hanson has argued, was the first to modify and then apply it for military purposes.
>>395157
The Ming did tend to get crushed whenever they were drawn out into field battles by the Manchus; they seemed to excel the most when defending big walls fortified by a lot of cannon.
I assume there's a lot of truth to what you're saying here, as the most effective soldiers against the Japanese were those southern Chinese who had been trained according to Qi Jiguang's manual--hell, the guy even made sure that equipment for his troops were pretty simplistic (polearms, rattan shields, etc,) since he didn't trust the shoddy quality of the firearms manufactured by the state.
>>395209
Not really sure if the Europeans were first here; the Song were using fire lances, cast-iron bombs/mines, and rockets to stave off the Jin and the Mongols in the 12th and 13th centuries.
>>395209
> It's worth mentioning that the Chinese created gunpowder but its use at that time was strictly for fireworks.
Actually that's not true
>>395209
>The West, as Victor Davis Hanson has argued, was the first to modify and then apply it for military purposes.
Then Victor David Hanson is an unread moron who's opinions are not worth considering.
This is a Song Dynasty (960 to 1279) Firelance.
>>396408
>Qi Jiguang's manual--hell, the guy even made sure that equipment for his troops were pretty simplistic (polearms, rattan shields, etc,) since he didn't trust the shoddy quality of the firearms manufactured by the state.
1) Not really. Cunts who fought the Japs were veterans of the war against the Mongs.
2) Qi Jiguang army was simplistically armed because he didn't even have an army to begin with. The Jiajing Emperor and his ministers thought the Mongols were a greater threat than shit-pirates and so lavished the budget on the frontier armies and the wall. Meanwhile Qi was just given a budget and a small army and figure out what the fuck to do himself. And he succeeded in this campaign.
Furthermore Qi's main innovation is twofold: 1) his ability to make an army out of the collection of bravos, village posses, and part-time soldiers and 2) Small unit tactics based on squads of 11 men spread out to defend coastal villages.
Furthermore the reason why he never used firearms is because 1) It rained a lot in the South, 2) he wasn't given a lot of it. Most muskets went north to face the Mongols. 3) He didn't trust the local Southern Chinese gunsmiths' work.
He did have basic cannon though
>>395157
>If there's any truth to it then it's no wonder the Manchus overran them so easily.
There isn't any truth of it given how even Chinese tribals in the South use muskets quite well.
Also speaking of the Manchus, Chinese muskets did become a problem to them. Manchus overran the Flat North easily but the South was a big problem to them due to mountainous terrain, dense forests, and fortified cities crammed with gunmen. So much so that they had to reorganize the initially ethnic-based whole banner system to fit ethnic Chinese musketeers and artillerymen during the conquest. First among one of the many compromises the Manchu did on the road to their Sinification.
>Japan invades Korea after receiving muskets from Portugal
>Japan invades China after modernizing with the help of the British
Will Japan always be a pawn of Westerners against mainland East Asia?
Japanese developed pike and shot, Japanese are European.
Chinese never developed pike and shot. Chinese are not European.
>>397055
>Not really. Cunts who fought the Japs were veterans of the war against the Mongs.
There were both Northern and Southern troops present though, even if there were more guys from the north (Li Rusong et al). Wasn't there a concerted effort for the Ming to rotate in more troops trained in the "Southern"/Qi Jiguang style since they were better suited to infantry tactics and formation fighting than the guys in the north?
I do recall reading that northern troops were mostly mounted warriors with light armour, shortbows and shortswords--it's why Rusong and his retinue didn't fare especially well against the Japanese at Byeokjegwan and wanted more Southern troops in the war.
Admittedly, I'm drawing on Swope's research and I've been a bit more wary about citing him these days.
>>397101
>Wasn't there a concerted effort for the Ming to rotate in more troops trained in the "Southern"/Qi Jiguang style since they were better suited to infantry tactics and formation fighting than the guys in the north?
Pretty much, but Northern infantrymen are trained in artillery, which counts for their presence there.
>>397101
Furthermore Qi's doctrine was still being followed in the 1590's drillwise, not weaponswise since armies better equipped than Qi's 1560's rabble went to fight the Japs.
>>387664
Do any of you think that if the Japs didn't ban guns and continued to develope them they would have come up with some coastal defense guns and have been able to BTFO the Black Ships and prevent the forcible opening of Japan?
>>397101
>There were both Northern and Southern troops present though, even if there were more guys from the north (Li Rusong et al). Wasn't there a concerted effort for the Ming to rotate in more troops trained in the "Southern"/Qi Jiguang style since they were better suited to infantry tactics and formation fighting than the guys in the north?
The "southern" troops(Yiwu coastal veterans in particular),iirc they were led by Wu Weizhong/Luo Shangzhi and made up 3,600 of the 30,000-40,000 men that came with Li Rusong.
Korean primary sources praise their fighting ability as well as their discipline.(Willingness to help the locals instead of pillaging for one)
While there were far more "southern" soldiers sent in the second Japanese invasion they weren't the same as coastal veterans(southwestern aboriginals,coastal marines etc.)
>>397101
>I do recall reading that northern troops were mostly mounted warriors with light armour, shortbows and shortswords--it's why Rusong and his retinue didn't fare especially well against the Japanese at Byeokjegwan and wanted more Southern troops in the war.
Admittedly, I'm drawing on Swope's research and I've been a bit more wary about citing him these days.
Most of the border cavalry/infantry had some sort of brigandine armor,Qi Jiguang included paper armor/rattan helmets in his manuals after his tenure in the north.
Most of the casualties suffered in the Battle of Byeokjegwan were amongst his personal retinues(better armaments),Song Yingchang's orders were explicit that every cavalrymen was to have some some sort of sabre + polearm.
I don't buy into the argument that northern soldiers were inexperienced in close combat,Tachibana Muneshige's forces suffered high casualties and border soldiers were often used to quell internal Ming rebellions not just Jurchens/Mongols.
Swope has a hard on for Ming cannons and overstates their roll. You're better off reading primary sources.
>>397240
>Swope has a hard on for Ming cannons and overstates their roll. You're better off reading primary sources.
Yeah I figured. Listening to an interview he did recently, he seemed pretty dismissive of how the Japanese generals, and in general he seems to go a bit far calling out Hawley and Turnbull (as much as Turnbull seems to deserve it, for the most part).
>>397253
>of how the Japanese generals
*of how the Japanese generals didn't fight on the front lines like their Ming equivalents
>>397253
Hawley is ten times the historian the hacks Turnbull and Swope are
>>397240
Those appear to be cavalrymen.
The typical Chinese infantry of the 1560's-1590's had for armor the ff
1) Chainmail Vest
2) Lamellar Vest
3) Chainmail leg wraps.
And thats it. Or maybe a helmet or turban of some sort
Brigandine was already for better soldiers like the Guards, officers, and cavalrymen.
Though really there's a huge variation in Chinese equipment as the Ming army was an army composed of the formal military whose quality of equipment is based on their military region's funding and private/non-governmental communal military organizations on the government's pay
>>397275
Further picture. Primary source this time from the 1560's
Soldiers in chainmail vests with Rank/Unit badges on their back
>>397253
>Yeah I figured. Listening to an interview he did recently, he seemed pretty dismissive of how the Japanese generals, and in general he seems to go a bit far calling out Hawley and Turnbull (as much as Turnbull seems to deserve it, for the most part).
At the very least Swope is able to read primary sources(whether his interpretations are correct s another topic),Hawley/Turnbull rely on translated sources and their works suffer because of it.
Chinese military officers were subordinate to their civilian counterparts,expendable and their authority rescinded once the campaign was over.
Daimyos on the other hand would risk far more if they were in the thick of things.
>>391278
Having lived a few months in Taiwan, I read that in northern Taiwan around Keelung actually there was some sort of Japanese colonization in the 1500s, but the Spanish and Dutch combined with Japan eventually going sakoku chased them away. I've never heard anything else about this but would like to learn more, wish I knew Chinese or that some southern kyushu Daimyo's documents about this stuff would turn up.
>>397275
>Those appear to be cavalrymen.
They could be dismounted cavalrymen/infantry. Some of the soldiers depicted in the scroll wear puttees.
The painting is only for reference,while the was was made in 1575 to commemorate Shi Maohua's campaigns against aboriginal rebels the Imjin War is close enough that it can be used a proxy.(By 1592 I would think the armguards look much more similar to early Qing armguards,the helmet decorations might be unique to Guyuan etc.)
The chainmail vambraces/leg wraps are based on a painting that I can't recall on the top of my head,I don't recall a primary source arming the rank and fodder with mail but feel free to prove me wrong.
I agree with you,variation in equipment with cotton/brigandine armors being much more common in the mid/late Ming of various quality/length.
The bottom image you posted might be suitable for some local militias/conscripts,some parts of the south retained some Song era lamellar/leather armor as well.
>>397270
Hawley relies on secondary English sources as well,he is unable to read Classical Chinese.
Hur, Nam-Lin. "Works in English on the Imjin War and the Challenge of Research*." International Journal of Korean History 18.2 (2013): 53-80.
>>397144
Big perhaps.
Even if they kept those, they wouldn't have the competition and idea-sharing Europe had.
I believe an active foreign policy would be necessary, with european-modeled japanese ships traveling abroad.
But this whole scenario would require they didn't close themselves in the first place, so...
>>391220
>It's over, Nobunaga. I have the high ground!
>>397279
You know I always though Chinese spears were like those normal spears that had tassels on them.
Here they're just pikes
>>398606
>You know I always though Chinese spears were like those normal spears that had tassels on them.
Thats because you need to stop watching Kung Fu movies.
Chinese spears with tassels are a symbol of someone belonging to an elite unit. Thats it. It started during the Han Dynasty when Chinese units started copying the Nomad Practice of tying Yak-tails to the spears of their elite warriors. So Chinese guardsmen units did likewise. Compounding this practice was the rule of a number of Nomad dynasties in China.
That said, they weren't there to "absorb the blood that runs down from spears" like what 80's Kung Fu films say, but were pretty much decorative. White tassels being the lesser tier elite, red being the Imperial Guards-tier elite.
>>398606
>>398620
Furthermore, I think what they use in Kung Fu movies are cavalry spears which you can whirl and twirl around stylishly.
Meanwhile Chinese infantry spears from 500's-1500's AD ranged from 14 to 20 feet. These are literally pikes of the Su mu qiang family of spears and you cant do fancy wuxia shit with them.
>>395209
>It's worth mentioning that the Chinese created gunpowder but its use at that time was strictly for fireworks.
What?
The Chinese invented naval mines, grenades, cannons, and rockets. Also the Ming used muskets. How did they not use gunpowder for military purposes?
Japanese matchlock revolver
