Today marks the 74th anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
Let's get a thread on the war in the Pacific going.
Reminder that Japan surrendered solely due to the thread of Russian invasion.
Sorry to Fattyclaps, but maybe you can find a nice buffet to distract you from the uncomfortable truth.
>russians invading Japanese islands
>ever
Maybe after 15 years or so
>>370484
We should have nuked then again, then. The fucking yellow peril is real.
>>370484
>euro insecurity is so bad they have to call us "claps" and mention obesity in every thread
>>370484
Excellent b8
What was the best boat class to be stationed on, in terms of likelihood of getting through the war alive?
>>370477
Why did Japan do this? It cost the Axis the entire war. I know that hindsight is 20/20 but bringing America into the war seems like a monumentally stupid move on their part.
>>370544
Hitler declaring war on America was what did it. Yeah, he was kind of obligated to after Pearl Harbor, but come on.
>>370533
Coastal boat in west coast
>>370477
Fucking japs. at least they got what was coming to them in the end.
>>370549
>Yeah, he was kind of obligated to after Pearl Harbor, but come on.
Saying "but come on" doesn't make the first part less true.
>>370562
He was also obligated not to murder the Jews living in his state. That didn't stop him.
>>370544
They'd been cut off from our trade and were real mad about it because Japan has [spoiler]nosteel[/spoiler]. Also, the Japanese military kind of operated out of the hands of the rest of the government, and their success from their industrialization to the Russo-Japanese War to the then-present kind of had them thinking they were invincible (they being the top brass, the guy actually in charge of the naval operations knew it was futile and said he could only guarantee six months before the US beat them back)
There was a guy weeks back who typed out this multipost word wall on the subject, I wish I'd screencapped it.
>>370544
Better question would be why did Japan enter into a war it couldn't win in 1937.
>>370484
>1st post is bait
The course of /his/ is worrisome.
>>370544
Fascists can't help but go to far. They brainwash the public with their ideology but always get convinced of it themselves. The centralization of authority into the hands of a few and the fact that they usually hang anyone who disagrees with them means they rarely know when the course they are taking is wrong.
>>370544
The United States was part of allies before 1942.
>>370484
g8 b8 m8 I r8 it 8/8
>>370775
It was a gamble sort of like the Boshin conflict, and it was highly successful for a while.
>>370544
At that time, fucking Romania had a bigger army than the US and they thought they could just destroy our navy in one swoop and it would completely cripple us. The Idea was to strange the american war machine in its cradle
But they also invaded the Philippines and Hong Kong that same day
>>370484
I'm sure they could have taken Korea without much trouble, how how on earth were the Soviets going to invade the Japanese home islands?
The United States at the time was a VASTLY more formidable foe than the Soviet Union. Hell, the US + Commonwealth could have rolled over the Soviet Union if they'd had a mind to end the Cold War before it started.
>>370608
>mfw this nigga thinks the Japanese attacked America because of steel
Are people so dumb here? The Japanese were I'm need of oil, not steel. Manchuria provided ample iron and coal needed for steel production.
>>370973
>in need of oil
petrol
>>370484
Not solely but the Soviet invasion was the most immediate cause for Japanese surrender.
>>370549
Actually, he wasn't. He had a pact with Japan if ANOTHER POWER declared war on Japan.
As the name of the pact implied, it was intended to ward off a Soviet Union invasion of Manchuria.
The Japanese happily said 'good luck at that, you're on your own." When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union. They didn't even care to attack American supplies going through Vladivostok.
Hitler could have easily, and with ample justification, used it to launch a charm offensive against the U.S. Condemn Japan, rip up whatever completely irrelevant cooperation they have.
But he wouldn't. Because he knew submarine warfare was dicking around with American sailors, and more importantly, Hitler wanted wars more than anyone else. And he was afraid he'd never get a chance to fight one with every power, and that no one else would be crazy enough to do it.
>>370957
What was the best-case for the Japanese? That the United States would decide not to employ its overwhelming economic might in crushing Japan? That it would say "fuck it, you win" after being attacked first?
Did anyone in Japan think that would actually happen???
>>370775
It's not like it was the government's decision. The Japanese government had terrifyingly little control over the IJA to the point that the IJA was effectively acting independently of the government.
The invasion of Manchuria was done entirely at the initiative of the Kwantung Army, and it was just as surprising to the Japanese government was it was to the rest of the world. China was similar - the IJA kept being belligerent and went out of their way to get into border disputes until one of those disputes escalated into the Marco Polo Bridge Incident.
The problem was that the Japanese media was complicit in the invasions, whipping the population into a post-9/11-tier frenzy that made it politically unfeasible to withdraw, even if pride wasn't at stake.
>>370990
How would the Soviets have moved troops to Japan?
An invasion was far from imminent. More more than a German invasion of Britain was ever imminent.
>>371003
>An invasion was far from imminent. More more than a German invasion of Britain was ever imminent.
well to be an absolutely nitpicking autist a soviet invasion would have been 'closer' than any attempt at sealion - the soviets were given a largish number of transport ships, even employed them (with rather poor results) a few times, and enjoyed superiority in equipment and materiel... none of which the germans had, and they had the raf and rn to deal with to boot
>>370775
Some rogue army officer. No, seriously.
>>370995
1. United States declared sanctions on Japan when Japan was already in a state of war
2. Cancelling momentum was nearly as risky as declaring war on the allies
3. Japan had resources from northern China and the pacific
4. Japan declared war by sinking many ships, a strategy that was highly successful before
5. Japan continued the war while developing a biological weapon (a plague) that they would send over to the United States via their sleepers, but they were nuked months before the operation commenced.
>tfw King Autism
>tfw obsessed with the most sophisticated military strategy game called War in the Pacific: Admirals Edition
>tfw have spent every day the last 18 months trying to defeat the Japanese empire in a continuous game against a single opponent
>tfw August 20th 1943 and still don't have control of the seas
>tfw waiting for might of US industrial power to come to bear with numerous Essex class CVs and even more numerable CVEs
>>370995
>What was the best-case for the Japanese? That the United States would decide not to employ its overwhelming economic might in crushing Japan? That it would say "fuck it, you win" after being attacked first?
Why not? The Russians did it. As much as we say, in retrospect 'there's no way the Japs could win it' let's give them one last push of luck.
Let's say Midway is a total reversal. Unlike the land war in Europe, this is at least within the possibility of luck.
Japan sinks 3 U.S. carriers and mauls the rest of the fleet. The Americans will not be able to contest naval Supremacy until at least 1943, and even then it's dodgy because they've lost an immense amount of built up human expertise. The Guadalcanal offensive will not be launched, the Japanese will be free to dig in their defenses everywhere, and meanwhile have a free hand to strike almost anywhere in the Pacific.
Even if we keep on slogging, the fight is going to be longer, harder, and more extensive then ever. We'll be fighting it till 1946 at the earliest, and probably into 1947, easily. Our best hope to hurt the Japanese will be the submarines, and it wouldn't be yet apparent how bad that could get.
You don't think at least some of us, some of us, might start thinking it's time to throw in the towel and take a peace treaty? Especially one that didn't cause us to sign over any territory?
>>371010
How much of a naval presence did the Soviets have in the Pacific at the time? I'd assume close to none.
Japan wanted oil. That oil was in the Dutch East Indies. If the Japanese had gone for it directly then the Philippines would be between them and the oil, and so they'd be terribly vulnerable to the US. So (this is where they go full retard) instead of taking the chance that the US decides to go to war with them (of their own volition), they guarantee it by attacking the US (this dooming themselves).
Obviously, the better bet would have been to bypass the Philippines and go to war with the Dutch and British. The US would probably have remained isolationist cowards and stayed out of it. While Japan probably still would have lost against the Commonwealth in the end, it would have taken far longer, and given them more room to go for a diplomatic settlement.
>>371067
Japan could have even attacked the Philippines and the US may have done nothing. At that point no American was willing to fight a war over the Philippines and giving it up without a fight was a possibility had the Japanese not pissed off America by attacking Pearl Harbor.
>>371067
...if the Japanese had taken the smart gamble: invade Malaya and the Dutch East Indies, while staying clear of the US, and the US then decides to go to war with them (extremely unlikely imo, given domestic feeling in the US), then really nothing would have been lost by agreeing to US demands that they pull back.
I wonder if there wasn't any way that the Japanese could have gotten oil from the DEIs without having to invade them, by agreeing to declare war on Germany. That would have been the best move of all.
>>371076
No, U.S. tends to not be isolationist when natural resources are on the line.
>>371067
EVERY DAY. EVERY SINGLE DAY I HAVE TO CORRECT THIS.
I'm sorry, I know it's a widely held misconception, even in academic circles. But the Japanese shortage was of high octane manufactured fuels. Neither Malaysia nor the Dutch East Indies could supply that. Even if they never attacked the U.S. and seized the DEIs, they'd still have to send the oil over to California to be useful for something.
That's why their war was always focused on America. That was the central problem they had to overcome.
>>371067
Interesting to think what would have happened if Japan had avoided attacking the US, keeping it out of the war entirely.
India would have really had to step up, and post-war you'd probably have a strong unified India that encompassed Burma and possibly points further East. Australia also would have had a much tougher fighter, and might have felt more invented in New Guniea, possibly to the point of annexing it.
Also wonder how that would have effected the European theatre. Whether the Soviets would have been able to incorporate more of Europe into their sphere (I'm doubtful on this, since Churchill seemed wise to this, and wanted to make the main push up through Italy in order to get more territory in the East by bypassing France and the Low Countries).
Reminder that FDR and his circle allowed the attack on pearl harbor to occur to get the American public into the war.
>>371082
The US had FUCK TONNES of oil as far as anyone was concerned at the time. The US was drowning in the stuff.
>>371089
The Japanese weren't capable of refining oil??? WTF are you suggesting???
>>371113
This would be a cute theory, but more than the Missouri would be out for testing.
>>371089
>being wrong every fucking day
You think that the Japanese didnt have a shortage of ALL petroleum products? Yes I have no doubt they could have used more high octane fuel from California but the oil in the DEI was the difference between Japan industry and their navy grinding to a complete halt in mid 1942 and managing to fight a war for 3.5 years against the world's most formidable industrial power.
>>371113
>implying if FDR had known about it there was anything he could do to stop it
They probably could have had fewer losses but the nothing was going to get in the way of 6 Japanese fleet carriers in Dec 1941.
So lets say Japan won the battle of midway. They would lay siege to the Guatemala canal correct? Probably destroy it.
>>370589
What obligated him not to do that? Seems to me it's what the electorate wanted.
>>371154
The Law of the Weimar Republic.
It was murder.
>>371151
They wouldn't have had the fuel to do anything in the Eastern Pacific.
>>370969
Sure amerifat sureeeeeeeeeeeeee
>>371177
>Yes. Not at the scale they needed to sustain their war effort, long term.
What's to stop them from building whatever refineries they need in Indonesia?
>>371032
Is your opponent human?
I couldn't imagine spending a year and a half on one campaign only to lose in the end.
>>371179
>Japan and US could not withstand glorious Soviet Navy!
Get better bait. If Japan surrendered to the USA it would have lost Manchuria and Korea regardless and the Soviets were less of a threat of direct invasion than the USA since the USA was already in the process of invading Japan itself.
>>371177
>enough low grade petroleum to last until 1950
Yet despite this the Japanese navy didn't even have enough fuel for sorties in 1945. The Japanese oil situation was desperate. Why else do you think they attacked Pearl Harbor? You think the DEI's oil was irrelevant? You're so unbelievably wrong.
>>371200
Yes, a human. I know what you mean. Which is why I play conservatively. I won't let myself get into a situation where I could lose. As long as I keep my fleet carriers intact I'll eventually challenge the Japanese at sea and be victorious. But I have suffered some heavy losses on my CVEs and it makes me depressed as hell when I see my ships sink and airmen shot down.
>>370477
>Pearl Harbor
Never forget!
The problem with any plan that involved war with the US was that the US submarine fleet ultimately made it impossible to get much of that oil from the DEIs to where it was needed, even with the Philippines under Japanese occupation.
>>371223
>Yet despite this the Japanese navy didn't even have enough fuel for sorties in 1945.
...I just fucking told you the shortage was of fuels used in naval and aviation engines. Do you think an aircraft carrier runs straight on the shit they pull out of the ground?
>>371192
Nothing, in theory. But that's like asking what's stopping them from building the shipyards they needed to outproduce the Americans?
The problem was Japan's economy was inextricably linked to the American economy. That was the cause of the war, that was why they saw no way out, and that's why they had to lose it.
>>371214
I was referring to the statement that us and britain could steamtoll the Soviet Union
>>371235
I think the Japanese could have done much better against subs if they took the threat more seriously. They simply needed to devote more planes to ASW missions. Instead those bombers were pressed into front line roles where they were of limited effectiveness after mid 42.
>>371268
The US submarine campaign in the Pacific is probably the least known in all of WW2, but it had a huge impact. I wonder why it gets no press: I doubt most people realize the US *HAD* submarines in WW2 (when you think subs and WW2, everyone thinks Germany, and maybe Japanese).
By September 1945 the United States Navy's battle fleet outweighed that of all other navies in the world combined. This is what happens when the most autarkic nation on earth writes its navy a blank check.
This still boggles my mind.
>>370973
You're right desu, wasn't sure which one it was, if not both.
>>371013
>Hand waving
anyone play HOI2 here? Particularly Darkest Hour as I feel it is one of the best iterations of the game.
Anyways, war in the pacific as the U.S. can be a pain if your navy isn't ready, and you really got to island hop unless you do gamey things.
God I fucking love HoI2
>>371613
No he's right. Rogue army officers are what got them into Manchuria and China, what got their shit slapped at Khalkhin Gol, and what got them to invade Indochina.
The issue was that the Japanese media wholeheartedly supported the invasions and the Japanese government were unwilling to swallow their pride and force the Army to withdraw.
So they backed themselves into an imaginary corner, leaving war as the only option.
>>371015
To say that, well the us sanctioned Japan there for no wonder Japan attacked the us, is passing the buck at best and more like intellectually dishonest if you don't explore the reasons why the us and other a Western nations imposed sanctions on their former ally.
Momentum was lost in 1939 with the failures in Changsha, Guangxi and Shaanxi.
Not everything they needed for continued warfare in China else there would have been no need to declear war on the allies
All of which, except 2, were repaired to operational status 6 months later.
Kek
>>371637
HOI's model for the navy is absolute shit. A big reason I stopped playing that game.
>>371707
yeah, you gotta mod, the land and air aspects of it though I really like.
nothing quite like landing 50 divisions in france, while you have 20-30 more waiting to land in southern France, plus 20-30 in Italy slowly going north.
>>370484
Lol they had nothing to project that power onto the home islands.
>>371721
>gotta mod
I used to make HOI3 mods for multiplayer games but the model is too limited to make it realistic then. Hell I even attempted to make a project similar to Darkest Hour but for HOI3 but Paradox rejected our team's proposal. Paradox just doesn't care enough about the Pacific to make anything close to what is needed for a realistic campaign.
>>371903
how do you feel about HoI4?
>>371722
To be fair, the Russians didn't directly deploy their naval fleet and go at the Japanese home islands until the Americans and British had completely crippled the the remaining IJN warships at Kure.
>>371264
Okay, my bad.
>>371936
Haven't even played it yet desu. I'm just done with the HOI model completely. It was flawed in HOI3 and they went the wrong direction for HOI4. Didn't surprise me one bit they had to seriously delay the game after testing revealed just how broken it really was. What's the status of the game now?
>>371947
I'm not sure, I don't think its out yet.
What little I saw of it, it seemed as if they dumbed it down way too much, where as I think HOI3 was micro-management hell at its worse, HOI4 seems like there is not enough micro-management.
like you said, if they could just fix the naval combat of 2 and improve all aspects as well it would make for a much better game.
>>371451
And the whole shooting match, at least for the US, was over in less than 4 years. 44 months. By those numbers, the "Global War on Terror" would have been over in May of 2005, over 10 years ago. They sure moved fast in those days.
>>372093
well it was a country wide mobilization, the war on terror was just mobilizing current military and putting some more funding into recruitment campaigns.
>>371223
Tell us about some of the alternate history battles that have played out in your game - curious as to what's gone down differently. Do you assume Pearl Harbour attacks as the starting point, and are you forced to follow certain historical offensives and events?
>>372102
Right, and I do understand it on that level, but when I think of the scale of a world war, the number of theatres, the materiel and equipment, and the massive shifts in populations and even ideologies that took place in such a short time, well, like the poster above said, it boggles my mind. Just imagine the logistics involved in disposing of over 100 million dead bodies (and I read somewhere that more horses than humans died.) Humans sure can be resourceful when they put their minds to it.
>>372093
Wars against NGOs take a lot longer than wars against rational government actors. Hell it took the us around 100 years to finally take down the Italian mafia. And that was in their own back yard.
>>372119
Game starts Dec 7th 1941 and gives the Japanese this special move speed for the first turn allowing the Japanese to do surprise attacks of their own choosing. Often times players do the standard Pearl Harbor attack but personally I am not s fan of that. My preferred Dec 7 attack is DEI centric one: send half the CVs to smash the subs in Manilla and the other half to cover a landing near Singapore to defeat the British quickly to free my army for more ambitious targets (India or Australia).
After that there are no more historical events in the traditional sense. However, Allied production and reinforcements are purely historical except for mods. Ships will arrive exactly the same day and place they did historically. Japan on the other hand has more controls over production but can only accelerate or halt production; can't make anything that wasn't planned historically.
As for alternative history examples, I'll give you one from my current game. In January 1942 I sortied the CV Lexington to stop the Japanese from landing at Port Moresby. I only faced 2 Japanese CVEs and a BB but my pilots concentrated their attacks on the BB (and did no real damage) leaving the CVEs alone while the Japanese knocked out my carrier. Having lost a carrier while doing no damage to Japanese carriers, I was in no position for a Coral Sea type battle anymore and shortly after lost Port Moresby and everything in the SoPac up to Noumea in New Caledonia.
Anyways, if you're curious I actually have an AAR I am writing for my current game: http://www.warplanorange.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3906&sid=a8188464d2acdc247f8176c85885cb8b
>>372832
>Anyways, if you're curious I actually have an AAR I am writing for my current game: http://www.warplanorange.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3906&sid=a8188464d2acdc247f8176c85885cb8b
fuck youuuu now i have to read it all
>>372837
Don't worry its only 45 pages ;)
I'm watching Tora Tora Tora right now. Any other good Pearl Harbor movies?
Japanese bombs can't melt steel ships.
>>374537
No.
Naval combat sounds terrifying. Imagine being a US sailor in the Battle of Guadalcanal. It would be so fucking loud and confusing. Closest thing to hell on earth if your ship was getting fired at. I wonder if any AA gunner who was in battle was able to walk without being 100% deaf?
>>376510
yeah, I think about it being like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XceGKHATcYE
but times 1000
