did samurai even fought against any non japanese and won? What's the reason behind them being so dickrided?
>>358929
19th century romanticism. Some faggot wrote a book on them and made them seem all super mystical and shit. That book has skewed the popular idea of Samurai for over a century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan
Not really samurai just yet, but close enough. I feel the main reason why samurai are adored is an appreciation of the warrior-monk spirit. Mastery of both pen and sword and such. Plus interesting aesthetics mixed with a fair bunch of Japanophilia which arose in the mid 19th century.
>>358929
Burmese, Thai, Chinese, Korean
>>358942
Let's be fair. The Mongols were defeated by bad weather.
Yeah, they were beating the Mongols during the 2nd Invasion, even before the Typhoon.
In their invasion of Korea, they mostly won the land battles against the Koreans and Chinese (at the time, China had good armies, not inferior to other countries). They lost due to logistics and the Koreans having one of the greatest admirals ever (they won sea battles without Yi, but lost them horribly when he was fighting).
>>358929
They Buttdestroyed Korea. That's about it.
>>358929
Eh, i guess the hype is more about the tradition and the culture more than the effectiveness of their strenght. By the way they kicked their neighbors' asses in the early age, and even tho they lost to the americans you still have to consider that they were binded by the Tokugawa Isolation Policy and because of it they were technologically behind the rest of the world of about 200 years.
>>358949
>They lost due to logistics
They were pushed back by the Chinese to their castles in South Korea before the Logistics problem kicked in.
Fighting withdrawal though.
>>358939
I noticed almost every idiotic myth can be traced back to 19th century
fuck 19th century
>>358948
First time, yes.
The second time, the Mongols would lose anyway. Japan is an awful country to invade by Sea.
>>358942
they were saved by the storm
>bushido is cool and not gay like western knight chivalry
>katanas fold one thousandu time cut through bone like bamboo shoot
>japanese culture is so exotic and mysterious
>samurai best trained warriors 24 hours a day kill any enemy, most skill
>look cool
>anime
>>358958
They were pushed back because of logistic problems. But then, can't blame them too much.
200,000 people in a sea invasion is huge for that era. I think not even the Spanish tried something this big at that era.
>>358973
>They were pushed back because of logistic problems.
They had the run of the whole country just fine during the First Invasion. And then China weighed in and took Pyongyang for them, convincing them to fall back.
Don't forget the Samurai beat off the Russians. That really made them loved by the Western World
>>359012
when?
>>358929
They fought against the Mongols and did poorly. They fought against Korea and China during Hideyoshi's reign and did great on land and horrible on the water.
People ride their dick in Japan because it became fashionable during their era of peace to fetishize and fantasize about warfare, which was later revived by plays depicting heroic and noble samurai exhibiting the ideal virtues of the Japanese. They're popular in America because of anime, weeaboos, and Japanese people intentionally feeding misinformation to dumb Americans.
>>358929
BTFO chink
>>359762
why did they switch from being horse archers to using naginata and their iconic glorious nippon tooth pick?
>>358961
Romanticism, people at the time were looking back at the past and if there wasn't an answer or a fact to find if the idea was true sometimes they just made it up.
>>359797
end of sengoku civil war. no need for heavy military anymore. in tokugawa peace era switch to katana for convenience, romanticised in later era.
>>358948
So were the Spanish (muh naval power) and French (muh longbows) but that doesn't stop the English from taking credit.
>>359292
>They're popular in America because of anime, weeaboos, and Japanese people intentionally feeding misinformation to dumb Americans.
So they are just like vikings.
>>359797
Pike and shot.
The Yari fits in that sort of warfare, the bow doesn't really.
>>358929
well, i think this is a technicality but: around the beginning of the yuan dynasty, the mongol horde wanted to expand their territory to the est so they sent a massive fleet towards japan, but a "kamikaze" or divine wind (really just a tornado) destroyed 90% of the fleet, and the samurai just picked off the rest.
>>359930
today I told Japanese guy they were saved by it and he said they were kicking Mongol ass even before kamikaze
>>359797
The cav archer thing was something they picked up from the local barbarians who used to beat up their Chinese style armies by raiding with bows on tiny horses. As their conflicts scaled up in size, massed ranks of spearmen and bowmen replaced the sporadic engagements between horse archers and their spearmen retainers. Riding a tiny horse around and shooting arrows ineffectually at close range wasn't feasible with tons of archers and massed ranks of spearmen running around. At that point, they started fighting on foot with Naginata and ultimately Yari, then they rode around on imported horses with a Yari and acted as cavalry if they could afford it. They ultimately ended up as officers in massive musketeer forces/pike blocks by the end of the Sengoku. If you were to pick one weapon that best exemplifies the samurai, it's probably the arquebus.
>>359951
What were the chinese style armies the barbarians beat like?
>>359946
This is incorrect. The "first" Mongol invasion was actually just an advance/recon force. The japs went out to fight them, rode around on ponies and threw arrows/insults, as was the disorganized custom of Japanese warfare at the time. The Mongols in typical organized fashion completely outmaneuvered and crushed them. They hid in their castles until the Mongols left. When the Mongols came back, the Japanese camped the coastline to make it hard to land, sailed out on little canoes and harassed nearby Mongol transports, and generally scratched their heads trying to figure out what to do until a storm destroyed the Mongols. The reason Kamikaze is significant in their culture is because they knew they were fucked.
>>359963
Closest analogue would probably be a shield wall or a phalanx. Basically heavy infantry with swords/shields/spears in inflexible formations, as was the custom at the time in China/Korea. They proved completely ineffective at fighting the local barbarian tribes, who were the horsemen of the region. As a result, the rural Japanese who typically fought the barbarians copied them, forming the proto-samurai mercenaries who would guard the farms of rich people living far away in the cities.
>>359969
Incorrect. The invasion of Japan was just a few Mongols in a rowboat that got lost out at sea. Every man, woman, and child was mobilized to defend the coast. Most of them just wore loin clothes and flung whatever they could find laying around. Also they forgot about about the harvest and didn't bring any food so most of Japanese "forces" starved in short order. The Mongols rowed up to the coast to ask for directions, saw the dirty and half-naked Japanese flinging their shit into the sea, felt sorry for them, and turned around and rowed away. The Japanese claimed glorious victory.
>>359986
Another fun fact on this point is that the whole "Shogun" idea is derivative of this fight against the tribes. The point of a Shogun, at least originally, is basically that of a military post with absolute authority to do whatever it took to protect people from these barbarian raiders. I don't remember the exact quote, but Shogun means something like barbarian-quelling generalissimo.
>>360006
Thank you for giving us the pol version of the story.
>>359986
How exactly did horse archers beat a phalanx/shield wall? IIRC most of such forces were defeated in Europe by an army of infantry with some heavy cavalry.
>>360037
>How exactly did horse archers beat a phalanx/shield wall
Because despite the fact that Japanese armies were based on the mainland Asian ones, they don't have the full military system that made that effective for Chinese and Koreans.
For example: Japanese didn't have extensive cavalry forces. The Chinese did.
>>360037
The thing to remember about this point in Japanese history is that the fighting is really small scale and disorganized. The problem they had wasn't that they were losing pitched battles against the tribes, they were just unable to engage them with heavy infantry. They'd show up and the raiders would just ride around on their ponies and shoot arrows at them and run away. When they would try to attack the barbarians the same thing would happen.
>>358929
Their magnum opus was fighting the Koreans and Chinese. The Samurai preformed in the same way that Japan would through the rest of its history because we nuked them. They punched well above their weight and did well. They'd learn their lesson by 1904 and would have a powerful navy to compliment their army.
>>360063
This is a part of it as well, these Chinese style armies were designed to fight large scale battles against other organized armies on the mainland, with the assistance of other arms, mercenaries, etc. Japan was trying to copy what was working for the cool kids in China, but it wasn't working in the local conditions/scale.
>>358974
I believe many parts of Korea were still untouched on their march to Pyongyang. They basically raced through one main route through the middle of Korea, without controlling much of the sides of the route. The route also goes through mountains and rivers making resupply slow. Admiral Yi really fucked them over by denying a sea route to resupply troops at Pyongyang.
>>358949
Are there any good books in English on Yi Sunsin? I've looked briefly on Amazon, but found nothing reasonably priced or reviewed.
Or should I just pretend Raging Currents is a documentary?
>>361090
Pyongyang was occupied and Japs were so far into the North they were already getting into trouble with the Jurchens.
COREA INVENT SAMURAI
COREA INVENT KATANA
COREA #1
>>358929
Do you mean samurai with guns or samurai with swords?
>>358965
>bushido is cool and not gay
>not gay
Wew lad
Oda Nobunaga re-invented pike-and-shot fighting doctrine and Sengoku-era Japs had the best firearms technology of the time because decades of warfare is fine incentive for military innovation
apparently the japs gifted some of their guns to the koreans and the koreans were all like lol guns r for fags
>>358929
Imjin war until the Chinese got involved.
>>359263
He's referencing the Ruso-japanese war, a war in which there were no Samurai.
>>358929
Only the Mongols. It was the only time in Japanese history before Hideoshi unified Japan that the warlords banded together under a single cause. Everyone was scared shitless of them.
The first was a disaster because the mongols didn't have the faintest idea of how to operate boats. And wasted too many resources only to lose them to a storm.
They won fair and square on the second invasion. The mongols still botched the landings, but they got soldiers in but didn't manage to get farther than the coast, then a second storm destroyed the fleet and the mongols found themselves trapped on the island without reinforcements or resources.
That's the only time when the empire proper had to take action. Everything else was internal dickwaving
>>361651
Japan wasn't really cavalry country.
Its horses were too small for charger roles, its cavalry equipment was quite bad (i.e.straw horseshoes), which is why horse archery, light cavalry, and battle taxis were the only roles of horses there for a long time.
It held no candle at all with the cavalry action in the mainland.
>>359882
The Spanish fleet was destroyed by the hands of God, whom favoured the brits, and longbows is a completely legitimate military advantage.
>>358929
>that grasp of the English language
>>361689
Blame it more on the French being retards for not deploying their own 4000 longbows at agincourt.
>>361090
Konishi's loss of Pyongyang forced the Japanese on the defensive,it was the relief force that forced Kato to retreat from Hamgyong not Yi Sunshin.
During the boshin wars and subsequent rebellions under emperor meiji traditional armies faced up against western-style infantry.
You can guess how things went.
>>361992
Their Katana's cut through western tanks?
>>362018
Shut up with that meme. It stopped being funny 5 years ago.
>>358949
Weren't those mostly just peasants with guns in the invasion of Korea?
>>362066
What are the good memes nowadays then?
>>362018
their threw kamehamas to vaporize filthy gaijin lovers
>>362076
I guess many had peasant background, but they were by large a professional army
>>362082
their threw
Sounds like a Gaelic clothing item.
>>361679
True, but it did have it's military uses. They became obsolete when Nobunaga happened.
>>358929
>you will never be among a European trading fleet visiting Japan in the Edo era
>you will never fuck their shit up with your superior ship artillery and firearms
>you will never culturally enrich them and laugh at their casual robe clothing as you buy their wives with arabic spices
Why even live though?
>>358963
This is at least in part a myth, only one of the invasions was repelled by a storm.
>>359292
That actually did pretty well against the mongols
>>362171
That was two year ago m8.
Fucking roodypoo I swear.
>>362076
the Ashigaru weren't exactly peasants, although many came from the peasantry. They were considered to be part of the bushi (just really low ranking) until the end of the civil war, and some were actually poor samurai. Plus, huge numbers of them were career soldiers who stayed on as retainers for their lord after their initially conscription. By the time of Imjin War, most were professional soldiers who were well drilled and experienced. It's a huge reason why the Japanese steamrolled the Koreans until the Ming (who had their own professional army) entered the war
>>362223
3 years actually. Its the meme that keeps on giving
>>361438
>Korea invent katana
Actually, the Chinese did with the Zhanmadao or "horse beheading sword" in 200BC. The idea of standing your ground against cavalry with just an oversized saber is pretty scary.
>>358929
You do realize that Samurai were a caste, and not a type of warrior? It's like asking if the bourgeoise ever fought against non-Europeans.
>>362359
Zhan Ma Jian/Mo Dao/Ma Zha Dao/Chang Dao are all different weapons.
>>362409
You're right, but their history is the same and the Koreans got their techniques from China (and Japan got theirs from Korea).
>>362359
Why would you reply to obvious troll bait?
>>361722
This is just completely ignorant. No nation in Europe was as focused on archery as England. They paid and trained longbowmen as lesser knights, and gave them 100-180lb draw weights. The English also had an on-foot melee advantage in that their geography didn't make horses practical, resulting in a lack of need for light plate armor. This meant that the English had stronger armor and fought an enemy with an inherent geographical disadvantage. There's even more than I've gone into, but I don't want to go back over all this shit just to educate some fucking NEET who can't read up about a topic he's discussing for 5 minutes.
>>362414
While Chinese metallurgy certainly reached modern day Korea/Japan I wouldn't discount indigenous traditions such as the tatara furnace.
>>362521
>their geography didn't make horses practical
le what
>>361508
All the commanding officers were samurai descendants
>>362521
>This is just completely ignorant.
If they had softened up the English just a little their initial onslaught might not have stopped the French cavalry charge.
>No nation in Europe was as focused on archery as England.
True
>They paid and trained longbowmen as lesser knights
Define lesser knight.
Did they train archers in close formation cavalry tactics? Did long bowmen get paid two shillings a day?
>and gave them 100-180lb draw weights.
That's a typical warbow draw weight yes.
>The English also had an on-foot melee advantage in that their geography didn't make horses practical
Opinion discarded 0/10
Literally lindybeige tier.
You should speak T. Capwell.
>>361497
Japs didn't have the best firearms tech, but they did take to firearms really, really well. Europe moved past that model of firearm fairly quickly, Japan refined it and improved on it. They also independently developed the latest new European firearms tactics at about the same time they were being invented in Europe.
>>361651
Cavalry was far from obsolete, for most of the Sengoku, mounted samurai with Yari were the the elite backbone of the army. It's only near the end that Cavalry were being phased out.
>>361679
They were using imported horses at that point. The tiny ponies of the past were still around, but they were riding and fighting on them very much anymore.
>>362178
They did pretty well holding them at the coast keeping the Mongols from deploying. The earlier incursion showed them that they were completely outclassed if the Mongols could deploy. This was actually a huge wakeup call for them.
>>362559
>180lb
>Typical warbow draw weight
Yeah, nah.
>>363236
>Estimates for the draw of these bows varies considerably. Before the recovery of the Mary Rose, Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimated the bows of the Medieval period drew 90–110 pounds-force (400–490 newtons), maximum, and Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believed the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 80–90 lbf (360–400 N).[2] Other sources suggest significantly higher draw weights. The original draw forces of examples from the Mary Rose are estimated by Robert Hardy at 150–160 lbf (670–710 N) at a 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length; the full range of draw weights was between 100–185 lbf (440–820 N).[9] The 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length was used because that is the length allowed by the arrows commonly found on the Mary Rose.
>>363705
Exactly, bullshit. 180lb is at the high end of a single, optimistic range.
>>359762
Those are Mongols you dumb shit
>>362164
The japanese were appalled with how barbaric creatures could have created those guns.
Hideyoshi's Samurai army vs Mohammed's or Saladin's Mudsline army
who would win?
>>363831
Didn't Hideyoshi use guns?
>>363787
Well, its barbaric creatures calling other barbaric creatures at this point. For mainlanders the Japs were no better than vikings for Europeans.
>>363036
>They also independently developed the latest new European firearms tactics at about the same time they were being invented in Europe.
Expand on this.
>>363787
you made this up
>>358929
First it was against the Mongols. Though they'd have gotten rekted if the first "invasion" was an actual invasion and not just recon, the second Mongol Invasion saw fighting between samurai and Chinse-Korean-Mongol warriors (especially in boarding actions by the Japanese) and the samurai generally rekted them. The storms of the second invasion were just icing on the cake.
Much later, Hideyoshi decided to invade Korea. Things apparently went well for some time, but they got keked later.
>>359797
The evolution of warfare dictated it. The katana wasn't exactly used as a primary weapon in warfare (though not even Japanese historians are sure about the extent and frequency they were used, until the ploriferation of guns), but with the end of the civil wars they became the primary weapon in daily life for obvious reasons.
>>362250
It's a big meme
>>358929
they fucked up the Chinese and the mongols alot.
Cavalry was not very useful because of Japan's terrain. That's the same reason why in Greece proper, there was not a lot of cavalry.
>>361689
>The Mongol fleet was destroyed by the winds of the gods, whom favored the japanese...
>>358943
When the fuck did they fight the Burmese, on the other side of China, boarding an entirely different ocean? Or the Thais for that matter, although they are closer. They lost against the Koreans, although that wasn't necessarily because of the samurai failing. They for sure as fuck didn't fight and beat the Chinese until the 20th century, well past the time of the samurai.
Valued mercenaries across Asia though.
>>364796
boardering* fugg
>>364796
>When the fuck did they fight the Burmese
Spotted the Asian-History Casual
Burma invaded Thailand in the 1580's-1590's. Japs wanted to git gud with Thailand in terms of trade. Thailand sent out a call for mercenaries that had cunts from Philippines, China, and Japan coming in since Thailand can't fight for shit due to the fucking Burmese being scary in battle. Japs sent a delegation of Samurai
Also made Katana-style Thai "Dha's" popular for a while.
>>360008
like imperator - heh
>>362402
>and not a type of warrior
Actually warrior means being in a fighter caste.
>>358929
European were to afraid confronting the Japanese with their Katana of destruction.
>>364796
Mercenaries
They fought for many Asian countries and colonial powers such as the Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese
>>359895
We are sure the Japs fought in Pike and shot? Because I have read other things like the yaris used to "wack" other lines of yari users. Also it seems than in Sengoku wars Bows and later guns were the main killer.
>>365270
The Yari is more effective when used in a thrusting manner against armored folks.
>>365294
Why are they so top heavy and unbalanced then? Thrusting weapons like pike have another morphology, the spear heads of Yari are too blade like. And the book 雑兵物語 or zatsuhyou monogatari /tale of the foot soldier said than the Yari was used as a striking weapon,and that's it one of the few first hand acounts of a common foot soldiers of the sengoku era than we have.
>>366010
Well I'm not saying it's not usable as slashing weapon but that using it in a thrusting manner is more predominant. Even weapons such as the european halberd were used mostly in a thrusting manner in a line, only going for the big blow if an opportunity presented itself. Gotta remember that most foot soldiers would have a helmet without face protection.
Here is something cool though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV_dzbfdZAE
>>366053
But from were you got than Yaris were used mainly as thrusting weapons in the Sengoku Jiday instead as slashing ones? In the video you posted they are doing what I said too.
>>366070
I deduced it mainly from the fact that cavalry used the yari that way, if they wanted something better suited towards thrusting they would have changed the design radically. I have to dig up some Korean sources.
>>360037
You have to remember that sometimes one group of people is simply of a superior martial skill when compared to another.
>>366070
>In the video you posted they are doing what I said too.
Of course they aren't trying to stab each other.
>>366070
Naginata used early on, a slashing weapon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHa9KUSCn3s
Yari used later, mostly for stabbing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AzmJ-Eqk5s&index=5&list=PLxwm4AZsPZ73e4bTq28KrgzIQpPrTH2U8
its true some martial arts contact slashing techniques for the yari, but this is usually with shorter spears, and you didnt train foot soldiers in martial arts that take years to learn
I have heard third hand however that foot solders would slam their long yari down on incoming enemies
>>363787
>appalled
More like jealous they didn't invent them first.
>>361651
>Calvary
>>365294
Is that supposed to be a mock battle or something? or did the artist just forget to paint the spearheads
>>367600
I believe its a training exercise
>>358929
samurai are so dickrided because after they weren't really needed they got into art and writing, and romanticized the idea of the samurai. fast forward to hollywood and the "mysterious orient" stereotype we have in the west a bunch of first gen weaboos got their clits all hard. so now they and the over-hype for samurai will never go away.
really samurai were just warriors like any other warrior from anywhere else. it's fine if you like them, it's even fine if you love them, but be real about it.
>>358939
>>358939
>>358939
Wow it was said right in the first post and yet this thread is over 100 posts. Samurai were glorified landlords at the height of their importance, they only gained legendary cultural status toward the end of the 19th century, when cultural authors like Inazo Nitobe were trying to package Japanese culture in a format that appealed and tantalized westerners.
Bushido was also invented around this time by tying together various ancient writings and customs to create a supposed honor code to dress up the samurai as something akin to the ideal western knight. Again, playing on the historic romanticism that was big at the time.
>>364140
He's referring to Nobunaga's development of volley fire and rank rotations with the firearms.
They were being developed around the same time in Europe with the 'official' word being that their first use was in 1594 while Nobunaga had done it by 1575. There were cases of something similar being done as early as 1522.
Still Nobunaga did develop volley fire in Japan independently of the mainland at roughly the same time and used it to devastating effects in the battle of Nagashino.
>>369647
>There were cases of something similar being done as early as 1522.
[non-tertiary citation needed]
>>369651
>Although the military historian Geoffrey Parker attributes its "invention" in Europe in an influential thesis to the Dutch rebels William Louis and Maurice of Nassau in 1594,[2] a number of instances attest that volley fire and the countermarch were already in "common use" in Europe by this time.[3] The contemporary Italian historian Jovius records how a form of volley fire was employed by Colonna's arquebusiers as early as the Battle of Bicocca (1522)[4]
>Eltis, David:The Military Revolution in Sixteenth-Century Europe, 1998,ISBN 978-1-86064-352-1, pp. 25, 31
>>369679
>non-tertiary
>>369689
>A historian claims it was first done in 1594
>Cool
>A historian claims it was done in 1575
>Cool
>A historian claims it was done in 1522
>Nah bruh bullshit
Seriously? Go read Elogia virorum bellica virtute illustrium or Historiarum sui temporis libriXLV if you want the word of Jovius who lived at the time.
Regardless it really doesnt matter who exactly came up with it first. Volley fire was already a thing with crossbows and long bows and several figures around the same period of time got the bright idea to apply it to firearms.
Nobunaga was one of them.
>>369709
>Elogia virorum bellica virtute illustrium or Historiarum sui temporis libriXLV
Which one? The sources for the other two dates are much easier to track down.
>>369647
>He's referring to Nobunaga's development of volley fire and rank rotations with the firearms.
But Nobunaga did not do that. Actually we had no idea what he did.
Did he rotate musketeers around? Or had loaders pass loaded muskets to cunts up front?
>>369710
Most likely Elogia Virorum Bellica Virtute Illustrium as it's translation is Praise of Men Illustrious for Courage in War and was a chronicling of the Italian Wars from 1494 to 1559.
>>369722
Don't most likely, if you want to give a source, give a source.
This:
>A historian claims it was first done in 1594
>Cool
>A historian claims it was done in 1575
>Cool
>A historian claims it was done in 1522
>Nah bruh bullshit
Was extremely immature, of course 1522 is going to be questioned when you say
>They were being developed around the same time in Europe with the 'official' word being that their first use was in 1594 while Nobunaga had done it by 1575. There were cases of something similar being done as early as 1522.
making 1522 sound tenuous.
>>369725
But it's not that tenuous when considering volley fire was already used with long bows at the battle of agincourt a century before. Volley fire with crossbows was already a thing heading into the 1500's.
To think that any one individual came up with the idea to apply that tactic to firearms is silly.
Nor did I even claim what's reported to have occured in 1522 WAS volley fire. I said it was supposedly something similar according to a historian citing Jovius who was a war chronicler of the time.
>>369748
>Any one individual ALONE
>>369748
>A historian claims it was done in 1522
>Nor did I even claim what's reported to have occured in 1522 WAS volley fire. I said it was supposedly something similar according to a historian citing Jovius who was a war chronicler of the time.
Nice backpedaling. You seriously sound like someone saying "I could have invented the wheel"
>>369759
That's not backpedaling when I can go back and read my own fucking post m8.
> There were cases of something similar being done as early as 1522.
>Something similar
>>369779
>A historian claims it was done in 1522
>>369779
Yes, and he wanted a nontertiary source so he wouldn't have to rely on a historian's sense of similarity, and then you threw your little tantrum.
You guys are getting way too hung up on an insignificant detail. The point is Japan was very precocious about utilizing and developing firearms, to the point that they were competitive in their development with Europe at the time. You're in a pointless intellectual exercise of dueling sources trying to figure out who synchronized their projectile fire first. People have been doing that for ages.
>>369822
Japan had more guns than Europe. It's really Tokugawa and his samurai caste bullshit that set Japan back.
>>361497
They didn't have the best guns, but they DID have the most.
Seriously, it's estimated that at its height Sengoku-era Japan had more guns than everywhere else in the world combined.
Or maybe they meant just that model. Either way it's damn impressive.
>>358929
Mystic-east, romanticism, exotic ideals, etc
You can blame the 18th and 19th century Romantics
>>369859
You can also blame a combination of conscious Meiji era myth making, and European and Americans journalists and analysts being lazy as fuck.
Samurai are basically awesome to explain why the post-Samurai military fucked up China and Russia.
>>369843
Yeah I actually wrote a paper on gun control in Tokugawa Japan during undergrad. They really tried to put the genie back in the bottle in the short term, but in the long term farmers were so addicted to them that they ended up with a million exemptions to the rule. Then someone shot a hawk or something and the autistic hawk-obsessed Shogun at the time sperged out and went on a big Feinstein-style gun control program.
>>369853
>Seriously, it's estimated that at its height Sengoku-era Japan had more guns than everywhere else in the world combined.
>Combined
Just fucking wrong
The common line of saying is Japan had more guns per capita than "any singular European" state." at the time
>"Japan became so enthusiastic about the new weapons that it possibly overtook every European country in absolute numbers produced."
Because no shit, Japan is deceptively bigger than most singular European states save Polack-Lithuania or Russia perhaps,
If its Japan vs. ALL of Europe, Europe then no, Japan didn't outnumber Eurobenises in terms of firearms production
Furthermore, I don't think Nips had more guns than say:
>China
>Ottomans
>Mughals
>Safavids
>>364830
>Asian-History casual
speak for yourself
> cunts from Philippines, China, and Japan coming in
Exactly, a few mercenaries. They had ronin in Burma too you know? If the Siamese had brought in a regiment of Samurai who did amazingly, and almost singlehandedly beat the Burmese you would have a point, but just a few mercenary samurai mixed in with "cunts" from all over, doesn't really count. Especially cause they lost anyways.
>>365237
Did you not read the post m8?
>>358962
part of the reason they lost the second time was because they tried to land in the exact same place because the mongols were so scared of the ocean that they wanted to go as short a distance possible even if it meant landing in the same spot they basically warned the japs about first time around
>>369822
All of Asia was competitive with Europe until the beginning of the 19th century. The big powers like the Ching, Mughals, or the even the Ottomans only collapsed at the very end of the 19th century. Japan was nothing specially in this regard.
