Can we have a thread on the ancient ancient world? Like Sumer, Phoenicia, Assyria, Scythians etc.
Some questions to consider:
Was Sumer really the first civilization?
How did the specialization of labor take place? What was early human trade like?
What type of armor and weapons did ancient ancient warriors use?
When did horseback riding begin?
Was anything else going on in the world, or was the middle east the only place civilization was taking place? Surely something was happening in China during this time period.
Additionally, when did civilization arrive in Europe? In Africa? In the New World?
>>345069
>when did civilization arrive in Europe?
Minoans
>>345329
ebin post.
>>345329
And you know nothing of history.
Google The ancient world podcast, the spam filter isn't letting me post a link.
>>345069
Occurred independently in the new world
see Norte Chico civilization and the Olmec
![despair[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/I1Ps0S3.jpg "despair[1].jpg")
>>345329
JUST.
My god, is this what we have become?
>>345045
>Was Sumer really the first civilization?
Depends on how you define it. They had the first cities, a religious caste and aristocracy, a network of trade routes between their cities and those of neighbouring civilizations, writing.
>How did the specialization of labor take place?
Which agriculture civilizations were able to produce more food with less labour. This meant that people were able to become scribes, craftsmen and trade persons, etc.
The potter's wheel is probably when specialization began, I think, and I believe that is the general consensus.
In Egypt and Crete specialization was largely a product a highly centralized government that oversaw a redistributive economy.
In Egypt all agricultural land was state owned. Workers worked for the state, and the food was distributed to the population evenly. Trades like ceramics, boat building, producing beer, butter, etc were all overseen by the state. Trades persons were fed the same as everyone else and worked for the crown like everyone else.
The Minoans had a similar system.
>What type of armor and weapons did ancient ancient warriors use?
Cloth, bronze if they could afford it. Shields would have been ox hide. A variety of weapons were in use in Sumer - axes, clubs, spears, bows, swords. Bronze and wood construction.
>When did horseback riding begin?
In the 5th millennium BC, in Eastern Europe (Ukraine/north of the black sea), by PIE speaking people.
>>345045
Anthropologist here
>Was sumer really the first Civilization
Depends on how you define civilization, but for the most part, yes. As far as the archaeological record shows, Ancient Sumerians and Urans were the first Civilized culture to make written history.
>How did the specialization of labor take place? What was early human trade like?
Specialized labor, when loosely defined, has occured far before Civilizations started developing, primarily in the form of works tasked with specific things under "Big men"/Cheifdom-level societies that occured long before Mesopotamia. Sumer was the civilized, stratified complex society, not the first complex society. Though few are documented and observed pre-Mesopotamia, civilization is not a prerequisite for specialized labor nor visa versa.
Human trade has existed long before civilizations and even cheifdoms arose, and was simply bartering between bands of nomadic peoples for useful goods such as stone tools and pottery for furs, food resources, and general raw materials relevant to the geographical area and lifeways of the individuals.
>What type of armor and weapons did ancient ancient warriors use?
Couldn't tell ya. Ancient Sumerian and Uran culture fascinates me but trying to do any archaeological study of their meterial culture is impossible because ignorant sandniggers have either destroyed or sold off 99.9% of it by now.
(FUCKINING SHITSKINS RUINED MESOPOTAMIA. FUCK YOU FOR WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO ARCHAEOLOGY.)
>When did horseback riding begin?
Still widely debated, not my specialty, couldn't tell you.
>>345045
Second part to last post
>Was anything else going on in the world, or was the middle east the only place civilization was taking place? Surely something was happening in China during this time period.
Horticulture and the most basic forms of agriculture and domestication of animals via pastoralism was happening long before mesopotamia developed its stratified society. However none took as much advantage of the landscape and resources as ancient Sumerians did to develop such a large complex society.
Of course humans were interacting and developing independent of the fertile crescent. The fertile crescent is where people just first started to fully take advantage of agriculture and truly develop in a civilized manner with, most importantly, written records and histories of various aspects of their culture.
>>345045
>What was early human trade like?
Difficult. By land it'd have been long and unpleasant. By sea it'd have been dangerous - estimates for maritime accidents are like 50%.
Trade was obviously important to industry, especially in metals, but mostly it served as a symbol of luxury and wealth and status for the more affluent of society.
Ivory, Lapis Lazuli, silk, gold all served to demonstrate 1) how rich you were and 2) how well connected you were with the outside world. This last bit is particularly important for newly forming civilizations as those individuals are likely to form the elite leadership as it coalesces from a primitive society to a 'civilization'.
>>345045
Jiroft civilisation in Iran is older than Sumer, and probably influence the latter. Harrappean is older too I think.
>>345045
Nearly every hunter gatherer tribe exhibits the signs of civilization, be it on a smaller scale, in some cases the cultivation of crops, sedentary settlements and the domestication of animals for food, which occurred at various places around the world at the same time.
Mesopotamia distinguished itself by the scale on which it occurred, one definition might be towns with sedentary populations in excess of 10000. Neolithic Ireland had a population of 40000 while the city of Uruk alone had a population over 50000.
Wheat grown on the flood plains of the Tigris and Euphrates was very productive and allowed this population density and the large skilled organized workforce needed to construct large stone structures and other stark indications of civilization, however you define it. Goats and sheep meant that areas surrounding rich agricultural land were also productive, providing wool and protein and allowing populations to exist in other areas to process commodities such as timber, obsidian, copper and tin.
Hierarchies are a simple and effective organizational structure, obviously it is not humanly possible for the King to manage 100000 of peasants but if 1 administrator can manage 50 subordinates you would need only 3 steps on the pyramid to manage 125000 people. The King passes a decree, 50 high priests, officials and major nobles pass it on to 2500 minor landowners and villages who in turn watch over 125000 landless peasants, slaves and family members to make sure they follow it.
>>345731
No, you fucking retard, it's a bait
Stop being this insecure
>>345045
>What type of armor and weapons did ancient ancient warriors use?
Spears and shields, apparently rear ranks used spears long enough so the 4th rank behind them could reach the front, they fought shoulder to shoulder unlike popular depictions in movies of a wild disorganized charge. It is likely they also used lighter infantry with bows, slings and javelins on the flanks as these weapons were universally widespread apart from the lack of bows in Australia.
Not sure what material the shields were made of, here it appears to be wooden but they could be wickerwork or leather as is common elsewhere. In the picture there appears to be metal bosses but I'm not sure of this.
>When did horseback riding begin?
Probably shortly after horses were domesticated but they had to be bred to be larger and stronger in order for this to be of practical use in warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botai_culture
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/research_projects/all_current_projects/african_rock_art_image_project/themes/horses.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry#Origins
By the iron age cavalry was common alongside chariots.
Towns with populations above 10000 arose in China about the same time as the Indus valley civilization and ancient Egypt in the early bronze age, a few 100 years after Sumer arose.
>>345806
I'm an Assyrian and I've heard that most of Mesopotamian artefacts are not destroyed but underground. Is it true that most ancient stuff have not been dug up yet?
>>347789
There is plenty left, sure. But everything destroyed is gone forever. Also anything sold to the chinese.
>>347927
Well most importantly the people are still there but the world doesn't seem to give a shit. When ISIS destroyed that museum it reminded me of how everyone thinks that Mesopotamians are extinct and how Iraq should be just given to the Kurds.
>>347983
The Kurds know how to play sides.
There are also a lot more of them.
>>347998
Yes but for some reason, the US didn't trust us and arm us too. We have to either crowdfund poor militas or fight under the Kurdish name. They've won this war by far. Their numbers, their support from the western world, they already have autonomous zones in Syria and Iraq. When will people realize that Kurds are not Mesopotamian?
>>348039
Nobody thinks Kurds are Mesopotamian.
Nobody cares that Assyrians exist, either. Kurds happen to have put up a good showing and are slowly carving themselves pockets.
The Kurds do not want a unified Kurdish state.
Nobody thinks the Kurds are Sumerian or Akkadian or Assyrian or Mesopotamian or anything. They're just Kurds, they hide guns and ask for more and they fight ISIS. Yay.
>>345045
>be Egypt
>get the best possible starting location in the game of civilization
>isolated from enemies by desert, sea, mountains, narrow pass
>most fertile land on the fucking planet
>sea to the most important ancient trade routes
>can connect India to Rome with a sea trade route
>still fail to achieve anything of worth other than stacking stones very high
How? Just how?
Do humans need shitty environment and constant misfortune to get off their asses and do things?
Is having a good time just recipe for decadence?
>>345251
Thats not strictly "european", is it? More like in the middle.
>>345045
>What was early human trade like?
Imagine there is this material that everyone needs. Its used for tools, weapons, jewelry.
This material is made mainly from two rare minerals, and they mostly appear isolated from each other.
So you end up having to trade far east to get one of these materials from kingdom X, trading far west to get the other from kingdom Y, and only then you can declare war on kingdom Z in the north.
Politics were dictated by tin and copper supply all the way into the iron age. Later this shifted to wheat and salt, since iron is a very abundant resource, and appears commonly around the place, unlike salt mines and fertile valleys.
>>348058
Genetics show Minoans were European.
Linear A is possibly IE or Etruscan related.
Developments you see on Crete like indoor plumbing, exposition architecture, ritual worship practices are not found in egytpian or eastern cultures.
Minoans are Egyptian like the Mycenaean are Minoan. It's a technological and culture adstratum sort of relationship, where one civilization is a bit more advanced than the other.
>>348051
Well this is why people should care that Assyrians exist. We want to stop ISIS right? We want to arm people who will not defect to ISIS, so non Muslims are preferred. We don't want more refugees too right? Well what do you know, there are loads of Assyrians willing to die for their homes and in fact, they are. They have a history of fighting honorably under Britain, they've suffered and they want to preserve what they have left. How is this not a mutual interest for other nations?
Also this happened recently:
>The President of the United States has signed The National Defense Authorization Act for 2016. On page 221, section 1223 of theexplanation of the Act, is the following:
>“The Secretary of Defense, in coordination with the Secretary of State, would be authorized to provide, in coordination to the extent practicable with the Government of Iraq, assistance pursuant to the Iraq Train and Equip authority directly to the Kurdish Peshmerga, Sunni tribal security forces, or other local security forces with a national security mission for the purpose of supporting international coalition efforts against ISIL. We note that local security forces with a national security mission may include, in addition to Sunni tribal elements, local security forces that are committed to protecting highly vulnerable ethnic and religious minority communities, such as Yazidi, Christian,Assyrianand Turkoman communities, against the ISIL threat.”
I doubt anything will come of it.
>>347789
>I'm an Assyrian
I dont mean to be offensive, but I have to ask, how do you know?
For the longest time nobody said they were assyrian, the people were considered gone. They were "rediscovered" and my cynical self things some people just decided they were assyrian for no reason.
Its kind of like modern day zoroastrians.
Again, I dont mean to insult. If you know better than me, tell me.
>>345045
>ancient ancient
There's a three age system of lithic, bronze and iron which are divided into technological and geopolitical periods i.e palaeolithic, mesolithic, aceramic neolithic, chalcolithic, bronze, iron, hellenistic, roman, early medieval etc etc. its not hard.
>>348080
Well we were some of the first to pick up Christianity so AD onwards we avoided assimilation by strong within our religious group. Also from ask the DNA studies I've seen, the Assyrians of today have very similar DNA to Armenians and we also don't have negro admixture in our DNA like Arabs and Kurds. I'm not saying we have to be Assyrian but if we're not then where do we come from? We're clearly a distinct ethnic group genetically but there are some gaps in our history where we have no idea what was happening.
Also to be an Assyrian during the empire times, you didn't have to be from a specific place, you just had to believe in the God Ashur. Don't know if that's relevant.
>>348080
Isn't modern "Assyrians" are more about Christianity than ancient Assyria? Just like Cops in the Egypt, they are genetically the same as the rest of the population, but kept their separate identity based on religion from the Muslim conquests onward.
>>347789
Lots of mesopotamian settlements are covered in up to 8 metres of silt from the Euphrates and Tigris flood plains however its thought the majority of settlements were satellites of the wealthier cities such as Babylon and Uruk, both of which are mostly destroyed.
>>348100
Wouldnt they just call themselves syrian christians then?
There are other syrian christians too, and with numbers comes power and all that.
>>348105
I'm still interested in the paleogenetics though. It would be cool if the Western Syriacs are remnants of the Arameans and Eastern Syrians are remnants of the Assyrians.
>>348113
Eastern Syriacs***
>>348105
There are different Christianities in the region: Nestorians, Jakobites, Greek Orthodox, Catholics, etc, I guess.
>>348113
Wouldnt eastern syrians be more greek than anything else?
>>348113
Were ancient Assyrians a distinctive ethnic group though, somehow different from other North Semites and Arameans? In any case, I doubt there were any major genetic changes in the region since bronze age, it was pretty much settled by this time.
>>348122
Greeks didn't come to their Mesopotamian states to have children with Arabs and Syriacs, so I really doubt there is much Greek DNA in anyone there. I also don't think a noticeable amount of the Greek population lived there when the Greeks ruled. That's just an assumption though, does anyone know?
>>348080
>Its kind of like modern day zoroastrians.
What? Zoroastrians have unbroken chain of succession since Arab conquest, either through Parsis who escaped to India, or those who stayed in Iran. There were even Zoroastrian polities in Mazanderan in 900s.
>>345803
>PIE
Sounds like a delicious language
>>348132
No one seems to have the answer to this. Some will say the Aramean and Assyrian identity have been revived to give these people a name.
Hell go back 2000 years, which is 600 years after the fall of the Assyrian empire and we have this king. The king's name is Abgar V and he is like the leader of the Christian/Syriac speaking community. Some call him an Assyrian some don't. What the hell was he, we don't know.
>>348100
We're not genetically identical to the rest of the population though. We didn't mix with Arabs.
Unless of course you mean we're genetically similar to Western Syriacs, which we probably are. The Assyrian empire deported, destroyed and assimilated a lot of Aramaen land.
>>348160
Also note the different between Armenian_D and Armenian. Armenian_D doesn't have Euro genes it seems because Armenian_D is more near to the south of Armenia.
Does this mean that the original Urartians were from Mesopotamia and mixed with Europeans later?
Testing Syriac characers:
ܐܬܘܪܝܐ
[Atouraya]
Assyrian
>>348160
That indicates you are closely related to Armenians.Not too surprising since Armenians didn't mix with Arabs that much and have been in the region, under the same rulers and influences as Assyrians, for centuries.
>>348181
I think you meant Aramean but non the less, here's the issue. Until paleogentic evidence arrives, unless an ancient skeleton dating back to the Assyrian empire is shown to be near identical to Assyrians today, I don't actually have proof that I'm an Assyrian descendant.
>>348160
Isn't the picture actually shows Assyrians are quite close to Syrian Arabs? I mean, modern Arabs are not genetically uniform, peninsular Arabs of conquest era had not enough numbers to influence conquered population genetically, so modern Syrian Arabs are actually Arab-speaking Muslim Syrians. And modern Assyrians are Christian Syrians.
>>348194
Buddy Aramean isnt on your chart.
>>348195
We would be, lots of Assyrians and Arameans lost their heritage when the Arabs came to rule. You'll see that gulf Arabs are a lot more different than Assyrians and that Arab Syrians a mix of the two.
>>348197
Oh whoops, got them mixed up. Though visually, it's basically impossible to distinguish Assyrians and Arameans, or Suryoyo or whatever they call they call themselves from each other.
>>348080
Muslim detected
>>348320
He said he doesn't know any better calm down, nothing about Assyrian history after the fall of the empire is concrete.
>>348053
>still fail to achieve anything of worth other than stacking stones very high
they also invented sailing and possibly developed writing independently from sumer at about the same time
always remember, a general rule of archaeology is that we only see what was easily preservable
egyptian culture seems to us to be obsessed with death and the afterlife but its possible those are the only aspects of it they took great pains to ensure would keep.
>>348053
>>still fail to achieve anything of worth other than stacking stones very high
they had a very successful and advanced civilization, what else do you want them to do? build spaceships in the bronze age?
>>348364
They should've went for science victory instead of focusing on wonders.
>>348364
Successful civilizations tend to eat the less successful ones around them.
Egypt is famous for two things - building big mausoleums and getting conquered all the time.
>>345045
>tfw all my life thought that lower Egypt was in the south and vice versa
Fuck
>>348433
>Successful civilizations tend to eat the less successful ones around them
There is a fucking desert around them. Anyway, New Kingdom Egypt controlled Levant, even fought wars with Hittes for it, so they had their share of imperialism.
> getting conquered all the time
Assuming Egyptian civilization started in 3000BC, they weren't "conquered" by Libyans (or was it Nubians first?) until early 1st millennium BC, it's about 2000 years, a lot longer than most of civilizations existed.
>>348053
is this bait or something
they lasted wayy longer than any other empire ever
>>348433
no, they're famous for lasting longer than anything else ever
you can't really call it "conquering" if it comes from your own land
that's like saying the communists conquered russia ffs
>>345045
the phoenicians are my favorites
son of a bitches founded my home city, went around africa and even reached the açores
they also made the first alphabet ever
reall alphas kicking beta ass if you know what i mean amirite
>>348515
... the communist did conquer Russia. Just like the ottomans conquered Turkey.
>>348523
the communists were russian
so russia conquered itself?
>>348526
They conquered the Russian Empire and established the Russian Socialist Republic.
Also the communist movement was founded outside of the Russian Empire, by people who didnt live in the Russian Empire, and were funded by the German Empire.
You could say that the German Empire by proxy conquered the Russian Empire, and many authors have used that comparison.
>>348542
i'm pretty sure the dudes who did the conquering were born in russia, even if the ideological movement wasn't born in russia
they spoke russian, they were raised as russian
even if they rejected much of their own culture, they still pretty much considered themselves russian
>>348542
> You could say that the German Empire by proxy conquered the Russian Empire, and many authors have used that comparison.
It's like saying France by proxy conquered 13 colonies from England. Russian communists used German funds to get to power, but after that they had no loyalty to Kaiser and themselves funded German communists.
>>348551
Again, following this logic, much of the Roman conquests werent Roman at all.
However we call them Roman because the people in charge were Romans.
>>348554
>but after that they had no loyalty to Kaiser
The deal was for them to sign peace as soon as they come to power.
They came to power and signed peace.
So the kaiser got what he paid for.
>>348560
It was as much important for political struggle inside Russia. Bolsheviks promised to end the war, people expected them to do so and supported them for a time because of this. Their goals were aligned with Germany's and they cooperated for some time, but you can't call it "German conquest", it was first of all Russian people changing government in Russia for their own reasons.
As I've said, this is close to the France's role in the American Revolution, the deal was for them to secede from UK and they did, the King got what he paid for.
>>348573
And I would be the first person to say that the American Revolution was a proxy war between France and England, which the French won.
Whats your point?
>>348557
I'm pretty sure the people in charge of Russian revolution were either ethnic Russian or Russian citizens at least. Yes, many of them lived aboard before the revolution, but only because they would be imprisoned in Russia.
>>348578
Yes, but France/13 Colonies didn't conquer USA, just as Germany/Communists didn't conquer Russia.
There are prehistoric horses. Check the foot.
>>345045
Latching onto this.
Were all the colonists the Phoenicia send to Europe and the mediterranean basis etnich phoenicians? Is it possible that some of them were Jews or Philistines?
Another question. How big was the greek community in Chartage?
>>345676
Thanks.
>>346316
Were there prostitutes and "bars" where you could get shitfaced in ancient Uruk?
>>348084
I'm obviously not a historian or versed in this, but thanks for the letting me know how to not sound retarded
>>348747
> Were all the colonists the Phoenicia send to Europe and the mediterranean basis etnich phoenicians? Is it possible that some of them were Jews or Philistines?
Were there any real difference at the time? Most likely it was citizens of a city-state, and the new colony had strong ties with the metropoly, just like Greeks did.
> How big was the greek community in Chartage?
I don't think we have any source on that, but at some point in 4th century BC IIRC after being #rekt by Greeks in Sicily Carthage senate banned studying of Greek language and "Greek customs". Still the Greek influence were huge and we know about 2nd century BC Carthage citizen studying philosophy in Athens and then returning to the city to read lectures on Plato in Punic.
>>348780
I was asking the question about Chartage because according to some book I read the Greeks, especially in Sicily, regarded Chartage (At least during the last stages) as much better and more civilized than Rome.
>>348790
I guess it would be true, Carthage was a maritime trade-oriented republic with close links to Greek world, and Rome was just some militaristic backwater farmer community, who didn't like trade and didn't appreciate theater. It changed in 3rd century BC though.
>>348053
They were black after all.
