Sup /his/? I find myself interested in the history of alcohol consumption among Muslims.
Alcohol consumption strikes me as one of the unifying elements of human civilization. From what I understand, virtually every culture and era of history has enjoyed the pleasures of a few drinks. But as we all know, alcohol is forbidden in the Islamic religion. However, I've read a bit about moonshining in contemporary Islamic nations, and of course we should all be well aware that just because something is prohibited by religious doctrine doesn't mean that followers will actually obey.
So if any of you could enlighten me about the presence (or lack thereof) of alcohol in Islamic civilizations throughout history, I would appreciate it.
>>344553
The ones in Al-Andalus liked to get shit-faced on whine.
>>344553
The only Somalis who drink wine are those decadent Djiboutians.
The French are never good news
>>344753
In the quran it says that wine is forbidden so some people drink other things than wine but what was meant in the quran was that alcohol in general is forbidden its just that wine was the most well known alcoholic beverage among arabs at the time.
>>344553
Alcohol is forbidden. However, Hashish and cannabis became very popular afterwards.
>>344553
Words of a Burgundian spy in 15th century Ottoman lands.
>>344553
>But as we all know, alcohol is forbidden in the Islamic religion.
That is not true. There is no one "islamic religion".
Alcohol prohibition, just like music prohibition stemmed from a single Sura. Even in that particular Sura it is not forbidden at all. All it says it that during "the last days of earth" a few muslims were seen singing and drinking, having a good time.
This was interpreted by some scholars as something reprehensible. Nowadays there are many progressive muslims, liberal muslims, shiite or sufi muslims who drink.
The reason people believe myths like "all muslims don't drink" is because the Islam is mostly represented by sunni muslims and fundamentalists sponsored by arab caliphates.
There is an insane amount of money flowing, which gives those people the power of representation. Islam was never much of an organized religion like christianity, it is much more of a private religion.
Fundamentalist muslims adopted the idea of the church organizing itself, they founded islam associations and made a big lobby out of it. Even today they are mostly sponsored by the UAE and others.
Hope this helped, I'm not a muslim at all but read up on the subject a lot.
>>345224
The book is full of multiple of such occasions and at one point the Burgundian goes binge drinking with a bunch of Saracens/Turks in a town nearby Damascus until a few pass out drunk.
Later that evening they stumble home and he almost gets caught completely shitfaced.
Pic related is the spy delivering his reports on the Ottomans to the duke of Burgundy, he covers their army, politics etc etc.
His tl;dr is that Muslims are generally better than Orthodox Greeks who are deceitful shitty and general the most pathetic race known to man.
The picture is correct in showing him in Middle Eastern clothing, he actually traveled in that clothing from Constantinople to Vienna to Dijon on horseback. On the way back people would deny him at the inns because he looked like a muslim.
>>345278
Crazy to think there were spies back then
>His tl;dr is that Muslims are generally better than Orthodox Greeks who are deceitful shitty and general the most pathetic race known to man.
Was it common that stereotypes were true hundreds of years ago? Ofc everybody is an individual and blabla but still could you say absolute majority of orthodox were deceitful?
>>345175
For those interested in pic related, book is: "Constantine, the Last Emperor of the Greeks: Or, The Conquest of Constantinople by the Turks" (Mijatović).
>>345314
Wasnt there like a saying which goes something like you need 1 greek to deceive a turk 1 jew to decieve 2 greeks and 1 armenian to decieve 2 jews or something like that
>>345349
Never heard of it.
>>345224
Basically, Islamic Fundamentalism exists not because it represents the historic trend, but because it's an attempt to rewrite or undo history.
The Islamic world was never the way ISIS wants it to be, which is what ISIS blames on the Islamic world being weak and underdeveloped now.
>>345381
When would the turn to more religiousity in the muslim world be?
>>345341
Oh no I didn't read that one it's a book available for free. Never heard of the book you speak off.
The Travels of Bertrandon de La Brocq́uière to Palestine: And His Return from Jersulem Overland to France, During the Years 1432 & 1433 : Extracted and Put Into Modern French from a Manuscript in the National Library at Paris and Published
It's on google books for free mates.
>>345314
Well it was more along the lines of the Greek race is deceitful while some of these Muslims are pretty cool and if it weren't for a few kind ones (among which was a mamluk) I would be dead five times over now.
There is some more funny shit in it like how people sold "holy" oil at famous Muslim/Christian pigrimage sites like the House of Abraham/Joseph or Saint X and Y and how he sees it's clearly a scam.
Dad used to be a merry drinker and a businessman with his primes in the 80ies and 90ies. We are Swiss, and he was dealing in copier spare parts, he dealt with pretty much anybody in Europe the Mediterranean region and the middle east. We are talking 3 different passports (the immigration stamps, some countries are a little sensitive when it comes to each others) and at least 10 times a year abroad for 20 years.
He claimed that he could get alcohol pretty much everywhere in the Islamic world, except for Libya which was bone dry according to him. He said that Saudi-Arabia can be very expensive if you want a sip, and that in Iran it is forbidden and somewhat dangerous, but everybody does it. For most other parts of the world, it is merely walk into bar, order, enjoy, at least if you are westerner. It helps if you like araq.
here guys I got you another one from the same book.
>>345393
>>345392
1960s.
Someone posted a video yesterday of Nasser talking about the Muslim Brotherhood. People were jeering the idea of wearing the Hijab. They were calling out for Nasser to make the Islamists wear it.
This is what Afghanistan looked like in the 1970s.
>>345429
>tfw no mameluke friends
>>345434
Too bad they became less secular. Will take a generation or two to have them get back at that level.
They smoke hash instead. Although many Muslims today even in Muslim countries drink a lot
>>345434
>those legs
I know i've seen this pic since the early 00's, but relevant.
>>345479
>Too bad they became less secular.
You mean too bad USSR and US fought a proxy war that leveled the country, and then peaced the fuck out of there instead of fixing it.
>>345481
>They smoke hash instead. Although many Muslims today even in Muslim countries drink a lot
Hash can get you jail and or death sentence in most muslim countries (few exceptions), Alcohol gives 60 lashes. Be smart, be safe, drink.
Oops forgot the include the last part.
Here is where he nearly got caught.
>>345236
this.
I have Muslim friends who love a beer or two but respect the Ramadan.
Islam is not a monolithe as neocon want you to believe.
(that said, it's okay for me if you choose not to drink.)
>>345505
>Thanks for posting these. Good night. :)
>>345479
>west dindu nuffin
>except fund and arm the taliban
An amazing number of Ottoman and Persian kings I've read about were clearly alcoholic. Even some of the ones who were considered to be religious or at least had good relationship with the mullahs. Murad IV banned alcohol in Constantinople with iron fist, but died from cirrhosis caused by drinking too much.
The relationship between alcohol and muslims is complicated.
Something that always bothered me was Muslim trading in the Indian Ocean. If they weren't allowed to openly drink alcohol, did they just store water and stop more often since it would run out quicker? Or were the rains in that part of the world often enough that they could collect enough rainwater to drink that freely? Or did they just drink alcohol on long voyages and everyone looked the other way because the profit was so important? Or did nobody care anyway?
>>345580
>An amazing number of Ottoman and Persian kings I've read about were clearly alcoholic.
Atatürk was alcoholic and died of liver damage. But then, he was secular.
>>345590
exist some decrees in this sense.
ii is prohibited for a Muslim to touch or sell pork; but if you are living in a european country and you HAVE to work, it is not haram to touch pork for work,for example, a cook.
not a single imam/mullah would tell you not to drink wine if it is the only way not to starve. the same goes for ramadan: if you are working in an oil pipeline in the desert and Ramadan happens to be in late August, your Imam can permit you to drink water and eat. as I said before, Islam is not a monolithe.
the problem, I think, is addiction, not drinking a beer or two. if you are perpetually intoxicated, that is haram. if you are an addict, it is haram. the same goes with other substances. It is true that cannabis is not explicitly prohibited, but it is not considered right to smoke all day every day
>>345590
90% of the rules in islam are not valid if you're risking your life to follow them.
>>345236
I would like to hear more extrapolation on muslim culture if you have the time, i find myself intrestred.
>>345825
I would love to, but my knowledge is very much limited, this particular subject I knew a little about since I regularly go to talks, have a lot of this subject matter integrated into my degree and read/listen to podcasts.
For all Germans itt- Koran suras explained in-depth one at a time:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/podcast-koran-erklaert.2397.de.podcast.xml
>>345492
That's ironic
>They started mainstream cannabis use (along with Indians, Chinese) and brought it to Africa and Europe
>Banned in most places despite being less dangerous than alcohol (I'm not saying it's completely safe, so don't start up the "hurr cannabis isn't safe" meme)
Was it really America that ruined everything?
>>345236
this post is about 90% wrong, as far as orthodoxy goes. alcohol is a massive no-no, apart from life threatening situations. there may be loads of muslims who still drink, but there's also loads of muslims who buy stuff on interest-based loans, don't fast during ramadan, or have extramarital relations.
also, sufis referring to wine is much more often than not a rhetorical device alluding to spiritual delights, not actual wine.
>>346018
>this post is about 90% wrong, as far as orthodoxy goes.
so you get to decide what is wrong and what is right? do you speak arabic? maybe if you did you would be aware that the interpretation of the quran has been heavily debated for centuries.
seeing as I'm objectively wrong, why don't you present me with the Sura that mentions that the consumption of alcohol is looked down upon? I'd gladly see that.
>also, sufis referring to wine is much more often than not a rhetorical device alluding to spiritual delights, not actual wine.
still, a lot of them drink, which was my point to begin with.
>but there's also loads of muslims who buy stuff on interest-based loans, don't fast during ramadan, or have extramarital relations.
it also says in the quran that you cannot eat pork unless "there is no other opportunity".
what does it mean? you cannot eat pork unless you would actually die if you did not? you cannot eat pork unless it is the only edible thing and you are very hungry? you cannot eat pork unless it is the only thing your cafeteria offers for lunch today?
this small example highlights perfectly how all the "rules" you think are set in stone are really just people pushing their agendas - there is no singular "right" interpretation of the quran.
>>346008
Well thanks anyway
Sadily im not german
>>346051
>all of this
there has been next to no discussion in islamic history about whether or not drinking alcohol is per default ok; there has been some discussion what constitutes intoxicants that are banned, and almost all opinions that had any weight (read: people who actually knew the texts and their application instead of people who just liked to have an opinion because they thought they didnt have to listen) were "nope, none of it is alright" with regard to alcohol, hash, etc.
>seeing as I'm objectively wrong, why don't you present me with the Sura that mentions that the consumption of alcohol is looked down upon? I'd gladly see that.
the reason this would be useless is the same reason arguing about the law of whatever country you live in is probably useless: neither of us are qualified (unless youre in germany, in which case: i actually studied german law for 6 years). you know who you go to when you want a legal opinion that carries weight? to someone who was trained to give such opinions.
>>344553
The thing to remember about historical Muslim law and historical Muslim practice is that the former rarely applied to the latter outside of civil disputes between individuals. For most of Muslim Middle Eastern history local custom and royal fiat governed the land, not Islamic Law. Every few generations there might be a religious revival of course where popular fanaticism combined with clerical influence at court resulted in a few months or years of fundamentalism, but things would eventually return to the status quo.
Alcohol consumption was almost always present, sometimes enjoying widespread public acceptance and other times quietly existing as a private vice enjoyed in one's home peacefully so long as drunkenness never bothered the public peace. The most common source of alcohol were local Christians, and sometimes their festivities would involve lots of local Muslims coming out in mutual brotherly love to get shitfaced together (and maybe fool around) much to the repeated chagrin of clerics. And for various Turkic emirs it became a literary trope for them to be cast as a drunken lout early in their careers before sobering up to become the conquering leaders they were meant to be.
>>345434
That's what upper class Afghanistan looked like.
Go outside of the photo friendly areas and you'll see the real one.
>>345434
1960s was a golden age for culture internationally imo.
>>345508
A family friend of mine is a big Egyptian dude who drinks more than most people I know. You're absolutely right.
>>344553
It's not about alcohol per se
In islam it's considered a sacrilege to knowingly harm your own body and/or mind.
Any kind of mind altering substances is technically haram.
Depending on where you draw the line even coffee can be haram.
>>345483
>i failed to protect her smile
>>345349
It was something more like "It takes two Jews to cheat a Greek and at least five Greeks to get over on an Armenian"
>>346824
I'm interested in the definition of mind altering and harmful.
“We were with the prophet of Allah and he was thirsty. And a man said: ‘O prophet of Allah, do you want to drink wine?’ The Prophet of Allah said: ‘Yes.' The man went to get the wine. The prophet of Allah said: ‘Make it intoxicated’. And he drank.”
>>344553
I guess middle eastern alcohol must taste like shit
Pic related, I could drink this for years.
>>345236
2:219 (Al-Baqarah)
۞ يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْخَمْرِ وَالْمَيْسِرِ ۖ قُلْ فِيهِمَا إِثْمٌ كَبِيرٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَإِثْمُهُمَا أَكْبَرُ مِنْ نَفْعِهِمَا ۗ وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ مَاذَا يُنْفِقُونَ قُلِ الْعَفْوَ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمُ الْآيَاتِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ
They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: That which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect
--Pickthall translation
Allah forbids sin. Drinking alcohol is called 'ithm' which means is an unlawful act (haraam) that is committed intentionally (like drinking alcohol)
The Quran is clear about the prohibition of alcohol. It's not a fundamentalist thing.
>>345547
What a bro.
>>345434
To add to this. Up until this point the fundamentalists were pretty much contained in Saudi Arabia (Wahhab allied with the Saud family when they were forming their kingdom) Thanks to the west propping them up with the purchase of their oil, they inadvertently greatly increased the influence of the Saudis internationally, which in turn increased the influence of Wahhabism.
>>344553
Marco Polo spoke of Mohometans who would boil wine to turn it into something not called wine. By their reasoning this made it okay to drink, even though there was still alcohol in it.
![0528pod01[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/zqgHPVo.jpg "0528pod01[2].jpg")
>>344553
I am not a muslims and I too find drinking alcohol to be wrong, practically and morally.
I still drink occasionally, but when I do its a guilty pleasure, something I really shouldnt be doing.
>>345224
The same thing happening to all countries. Except in the west the vocal minority advocating for religious values and a return to conservative society only do so on forums, while in the east they actually gun for it.
Before you get any ideas, both are wrong, and retarded.
>>345434
Should have supported the Soviets in the war.
