So /his/, just how bullshit was this movie?
Aside from the slightly supernatural nonsense, I'm aware that it's based on a real dude and a real battle between real armies.
But in terms of numbers and actual known facts, were the Spartans as based as this movie implies? Were the Persians really that shitty?
My friend likes to think he's an expert and says that Spartans could get their shit pushed in during any open battle with most other Greek states but I dunno. What do you guys think of le ebin Spartans?
There were 300 Spartans, but also a few thousand Argives iirc.
It's loosely based on Greek accounts of an actual battle. According to Herodotus it was 300 Spartans against 3 million Persians. That's considered to be an extreme exaggeration though, it was most likely about 10 000 on the Greek side (from various cities) and about 100 000 on the Persian side. And the Greeks got totally wrecked, though they probably did kill a lot of Persians in the process.
>>331586
After the sequel to this movie it looks like they're going full fiction and acting like the Greeks are actually going to beat the Persians. Be kind of a pity.
I always assumed /his/ would insist that the Spartan fighting prowess was just a meme.
>>331557
We have no idea who Ephialtes is really save for what Herodotus says
And he is conveniently killed in there because LE JUSTICE :DDD
Most likely it was some Persian scout or Persians paid some local cunt.
>>331586
That'd still be an exaggeration. IIRC there was just short of 50,000 greeks and 10,000 spartans among them.
Are we all asspulling?
>>331598
Spartans were pretty good warriors for their time to my understanding. Their problem was logistics more than anything. A small elite army thats reliant on a large slave population doesent really function well in practice.
>>331598
>spartan fighting prowess was a meme
Maybe over rated but likely exceptional.
>>331607
>>331638
I still think it is insane that this amazing impenetrable defence was bested by "lol there's a path over there just go round 'em."
>>331629
Yeah, it seems like they are pretty good fighters but in terms of large scale wars they're not that great. Guess they'd serve better as a group used in a larger force as opposed to the driving force of a campaign.
>>331586
I think the accepted number for the Greeks was about 4000, but dropping down to 300 Spartans and a few hundred others on the last day as the others withdrew
To be fair the film isn't trying to be accurate, it's supposed to be a retelling by the bloke who went back (whose name escapes me)
It was a full army of spartans, not only the three hundred. Plus allies. The persians found a mountain pass on their own, Ephialtes is fiction. Well, it could be that some natives, voluntary or not, helped. Is not really important.
The greeks noticed the persians surrounding them and withdrawed, but Leonidas stayed there with his loyal three hundred to die. Why? We can only speculate, probably because he thought that a full withdrawal would be bad for the greeks moral. So he decided to die like a hero.
And now we have this movie.
Also, the million persians is bullshit, not even the romans could field those numbers. Even 100 000 is far too big.
>>331557
300 is the modern equivalent to "The Eternal Jew".
>>331626
>IIRC there was just short of 50,000 greeks and 10,000 spartans among them
that was at Plataea
The defence at Thermopylae was purely designed as a delaying action and the Greek coalition didn't commit any significant forces to it, most were deploying around the isthmus of Corinth
>>331667
>100 000 is far too big
it's feasible, armies did reach that size (albeit rarely) in the past. The Romans could put well over 100,000 into a campaign (in the pre-Marian period anyway), although not in a single battle AFAIK
>>331667
There is also a legend which states that Spartans were told by an oracle that they would have to lose, a king or the polis.
The legend is later but some scholars argue that Spartans were really fond of prophecies and its likely that they would have consulted one before battling.
>>331667
The only possibility of 100,000 or more "Persians" is if Herodotus is counting EVERYTHING. Officers and men in charge of logistics, manual labor, crewmen from Phoenician/Tyre and Egyptian naval warships, men involved with baggage trains, the harems, cooks, and so on.
>>331666
Not what director Zach Synder says about the movie. He thinks its 90% historically accurate. Remember this a movie that depicts Persians as being "degenerate", mutants, furries, and all Asians as backwards warlords.
>>331726
>What's funny is modern historical revisions believe for example that the Battle of Marathon for example could've seen the Persians actually out-numbered by the Greek allies.
I'm sceptical myself. Obviously the number of Persians was greatly exaggerated but I'm still fairly sure the Greeks were outnumbered to some degree
>>331756
The Persians had no real cavalry available to them at any point in Greece. The country is too rocky, hilly, no real open plain to use their horses. The best account I heard is maybe 13000 to 15000 Greeks vs 20000 Persians. And half the "Persian" soldiers were actually largely levied troops from other nations in their satraps.
Anyway Persians and Median soldiers were always the elites kept at their battle formation and lined centers, levies were always on the wings. Numerically speaking, the Persians did not massively out number the Greeks at Marathon. A small numerical advantage but even saying "twice as many" is probably fallacious.
On persian numbers:
The persian empire might have been huge, but remember that large parts of it are barren lands, sustaining only small populations. Furthermore they would not have been able to use all it's population. Raising an army is not like a video game, where you pay ten foot and you get a unit of worthless peasants. You need some kind of right, some kind of conscription system to justify this and make it possible. It also would be really difficult for them, they didn't have an administration that could handle such operations.
What we know for sure, is, that the army of the persians would consist of a lot of persians. The persian empire was called like this, because the tribe of persians conquered things. In the end, it's just a tribe.
>>331557
The movie has gigantic rhinos and beastmen.
It's not even remotely accurate.
As far as I can tell Xerxes never claimed to be a diety.
Nor was he 10 feet tall.
>>331824
The Persian Empire (Achaemeneid dynasty) had almost half the entire world's population under its dominion and almost all of urban life was in it.
>the army of Persians would consist of a lot of Persians
No, it wouldn't. The Persians and Medians as well as other Iranian people formed the core of the army but we have no idea what the total strength or numbers were at any given time.
>>331557
>rhinos
>literal monsters
>army of slaves
>most of the army is dark skinned
>mammoths
You tell me
>Were the Persians really that shitty?
pic related. It was a strategic choke point . It would have been more surprising if they weren't able to hold them that long
>>331824
You dont have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
They had a government, they had administration, they had a levy system, their soldiers were paid, there were a lot of urban people as well as rural, it was not all a tribal land. 100,000 is not unreasonable for a large empire like that.
>>331850
>The Persian Empire (Achaemeneid dynasty) had almost half the entire world's population under its dominion and almost all of urban life was in it.
And how much of that could they conscript?
>The Persians and Medians as well as other Iranian people
So a bunch of horse riding tribesmen from lands that didn't sustain large numbers.
>>331878
See above. I never said that they had nothing like this, but if they would be able to hire troops from every corner of their empire, they would have an administral system far better than the romans.
And I'm not buying into that.
>>331863
The Persians managed to hold off Alexander for a month at the Battle of the Persian Gates? How long did the Greeks hold off the Persians at Thermopylae? 2 weeks?
>>331878
That's true. But levied troops are also of inferior quality, training, motivation, and equipment. Also have to remember the Persians also had a active garrison system of rotating soldiers to their borders and fortress outposts all across the empire because of tribes like the Scythians and other nomadic raiders frequently attacked from the North and East of the Empire.
Policing duties, security, garrisons, boarder units, etc...Its not like they could simply whisk away all the units they need without any sort of effect on the stability on the empire.
>24 replies
>No one mentions that this movie is based on a graphic novel which didn't even pretend to be historically accurate
>No one mentions that the author himself didn't care at all about historical accuracy and was basing everything on how the ancient Greeks would have portrayed themselves (fighting with no armour because artwork on pottery depicts them as fighting in the nude, etc)
>>331712
>he thinks its historically accurate
man, american education really does a number on you doesn't it?
>>331891
>And how much of that could they conscript?
I have no idea. The population of the world under Persian control at the start of the 5th century is 45%, just under 1/2th then of the global population total.
Large amounts of what would constitute the Persian army would've incorporated levied soldiers, satrap armies, and what not. The number and percentage of number that native Iranians like the Persians and Medians making up the core of the main military force of the Persian Empire is unknown to us.
We can not say for certain. Even earlier wars and battles involving the birth of the Persian Empire under Cyrus has sources like Herodotus bullshitting about numbers.
>>331898
Frank Miller is also noted to have made racist comments about Iranians so there's also the fact the source material is tainted by his bias of Iranians.
>>331824
>what is a satrapy
The problem for the Achaemenids wasn't in raising troops, but the types of troops they could levy from their satraps.
Their system of warfare was primarily ranged combatants with some light infantry to protect their archers, light skirmishing cavalry and heavy cataphracts.
Greeks had essentially entire armies of heavy infantry.
They didn't really have cavalry in the Peloponnese because the landscape wasn't conducive to it, which is why Persians performed so well in Thrace and Northern Greece, but were fucked when they couldn't use their cav in Southern Greece.
>>331667
Modern scholars like Hansen and Bury seem reasonably convinced it was more than 100,000. IIRC Hansen gives 250,000.
>>331923
what did miller say?
>>331954
Uh can't remember exactly but he's still butthurt over the hostage crisis in Iran with the American citizens, retroactively tries to apply 20th century geopolitics to ancient Iran and Persians; thinks the world would be better off if all Iranians are dead.
He has been pretty inflammatory in general about his prejudice to Iranians. Also he commented he was quite happy it "upset" Iran with its portrayal of Persians.
>>331953
That's not the modern consensus accepted, largest accepted number is 90,000 to 100,000 and that's INCLUDING marines from the Persian navy with their actual soldiers.
>>331993
I'm pulling this from a 2005 article of his:
>Then ten years later, followed a second, gargantuan invasion by Darius’ son Xerxes, who assumed that his elaborate preparations would ensure that the Persians at last got it right. After all, the Persian Empire drew on somewhere between 50 to 70 million people and loosely extended over a million square miles. Xerxes’ logisticians in spring 480 may have marshaled 300,000 seamen and infantry to cross into Europe, with a fleet of well over 1,200 warships — a larger contingent than landed on Normandy Beach.
>>332002
Yeah, I'm aware of that source and it still seems way too large to be realistic for my liking.
>>331557
There was a battle in that area, Greek and Persia were involved.
That's about the extent of its accuracy. They could have given the Persians lasers and it would have been more historically accurate.
The thing is that people need to take into consideration is that there werent that many Persians to begin with fighting (minus the Immortals). Since they primarly utilized cavalry like all indo-iranian tribes and steppe nomads did but had no use for them cause of the terrain in Greece and IIRC the fact that most died cause Nisean horses werent used to their climate or fauna.
It was mostly light infantry made up by the people of Mesopotamia, Israel, Phoencia, Egypt, Anatolia and every other nation/tribe inbetween making up the Empirea. Similar to how there were like 5000 Spartiates at Plataea but claimed over 50000 cause of the support Helots each Spartiate had.
Persians has had no problem defeating hoplites before (see battle of Thymbra, where both Sparta and Athens supported Croesus in his conquest) cause they actually could use their cavalry to its fullest extent which was unrivaled until Philip/Alexander changed the rules with the Hetairoi.
>>332028
I'm just saying, whatever people say about VDH's political beliefs and his overgeneralizing from the Greco-Persian conflicts, I've very rarely heard people criticize any of his scholarship concerning those wars, or about Greek military history itself. I'm inclined to trust him.
>>331993
>butthurt over hostage crisis caused by the islamic republic
>lets attack the time period that is important to most anti-regime/islam persians
wut
>>332067
All I'm saying in reply is that saying even 300,000 is pushing it unless you are accounting the combined total number of manpower and not saying the Persians had a total of 300,000 soldiers alone.
Which is why Grote is viewed favorably on this because he kind of accurately rips apart Herodotus' confusion of the Persian standard for 1,000 with 10,000. Also to add to that, Persian numbers would've diluted given they had to garrison Thrace and Macedonia, subjugate them, and left garrisons of men in northern Greece as well later in their campaigning.
Would it be over 300,000 total in the invasion force? Possibly, if you count counts, baggage trains, supply and manual labor conscripts, harems, women, seamen and naval crews, other ratings, and sub-alterns?
Not even accounting those engineers and siege experts who built the pontoons across Hellespont from Asia to Europe. But over 300,000 soldiers? I don't buy it.
>>332073
you expect americans to be knowledgeable about history.
>>331557
There was so much bullshit that it missed some cool real stuff.
The spartans trying to assassinate Xerxes. They managed to infiltrate his tent and kill several brothers/generals, but Xerxes himself wasn't there. Their skiritai night fighting style plus carbon dust made them quite close to pop culture ninjas.
Spartans also had much more hair and beard than in the movie. And would take better care of it than neckbeards.
There were unarmored spartans (ekdromoi for example) but the 300 would have armor befitting their status.
It's probable persians would have relied more on arrows, and before throwing troops in the meatgrinder.
The look of Xerxes whats nuts, especially given we have at least one surviving depiction of him (a bearded man in a robe). It would be like making a film about the American Revolution, and making George Washington an Asian in parachute pants. The whole thing is just an artistic interpretation of Herodotus, though, and hopefully folks don't take it too seriously.
>>333327
I like how Spartans are always portrayed as alpha chads but they were also cunning as fuck they were just obsessed with becoming the perfect soldier.
>>331598
>I always assumed /his/ would insist that the Spartan fighting prowess was just a meme.
It wasn't a meme, they really were the best infantrymen of their time. Their problem was that their societal structure was too rigid and eventually a series of slave revolts and wars with other Greek city-states brought their numbers down to the point where they no longer had any influence.
Does no one actually realise it is supposed to be portrayed as a Spartan retelling what he saw at the battle?
>Monsters
If course they would think elephants and rhinos are monsters, they have never seen them before
>Magic
They never witness gunpowder so they called it magic.
Come on people
>>333837
Well even for a dramatic retelling it was pretty ridiculous
>'A-and Xerxes was 6, no 10 feet tall! And he had no hair because he was an effeminate Easterner!'
Actually I take that back, going by Herodotus this is par for the course for the Greeks.
>>333837
Not sure if b8
>Implying rhinos were used in ancient warfare
>Implying gunpowder in 480BC
>>333837
This is a convenient if misplaced form of deflective bullshit. Frank Miller, the graphic novel's creator, considers even the fantastical liberties his comic takes to be "in line" with the actual historical reality of the battle.
That doesn't fly. And no fucking Persian war elephants or god damn rhinos were ever used in the invasion of Greece.
>>333455
One of the best. Athenians were consistently Sparta's equal in war and Herodotus as well as even Xenophon himself stresses how strenuous and exhaustive Persian boys were trained for war from the moment they could walk.
>>333870
>>'A-and Xerxes was 6, no 10 feet tall! And he had no hair because he was an effeminate Easterner!'
I-Is this an actual quotation? because that is very amusing.
>>334483
It's not a quotation, but in the movie Xerxes was 10 feet tall, and he was completely hairless, and since the movie was framed as a story being told before the battle of Marathon one has to assume that the person telling it said something like that.
>>334470
Greek history isn't my strong suit, but I was under the impression that the Athenians and Spartans were "equal" because the Spartans were a military power, and the Athenians were a naval power. The Athenians couldn't invade the Peloponnese, and the Spartans couldn't blockade Athens... so they were at a perpetual impasse, at least from the time when Athens' long walls made it impossible to cut the city off from its ports.
Maybe that's too late in history, though, and the Athenians were more militarily inclined before they could afford to wall the world off.
>>334530
Athenian soldiers were just as capable as their Spartan counterparts. But yes Athens was the superior naval power to Sparta's landlocked supremacy.
Think of Athens and Sparta with the former being like the British in the Napoleonic Wars and the latter as the French.
>>331712
>what is death of the author
>>331557
The numbers of the Greek forces were around 5,000 or 6,000. The Persian forces probably numbered no more than 100,000 at most, and possibly as low as 20,000.
Also Sparta was a proto-Fascist slave state in which the majority of sex was between grown men and little boys. And I know it probably sounds like I'm just dumping on Sparta for the sake of it, but proto-Fascist actually does seem like a good description; a society in which all free men were part of the military, and all people within it were property of the state. IIRC, even free Spartiates couldn't leave Sparta unless ordered to by the state. Trade was carried out, IIRC, by half-free resident aliens. Spartan women had more rights than, say, Athenian women (who, unless they were prostitutes, had no legal rights and could not leave their homes without male permission), but still, they, like Spartan men, were property of the state, and could not leave Sparta without being ordered to. And, back to the slave state thing, the entirety of Spartan economy and culture were based around the enslavement of the Helots. Spartan military prowess was primarily motivated by fear of the Helots looking around and realizing that they outnumbered their masters 20-to-1, and just about every aspect of Spartan culture and life were based on either preparing for potential slave revolts, or keeping Helots too terrified to rise up.
Also, while the Achaemenid Persians were certainly a patriarchal culture by any modern standards, they were much less so than the Greeks, and Persian women could do things like have jobs, own property, refuse an arranged marriage, and (in some circumstances) initiate divorce IIRC. They couldn't become priests or rulers, but they could potentially join the military. So that one "why do you spartans allow your women freedom" part was also obvs bullshit.
Also, pic of Xerxes. Note the presence of clothing and hair.
>>334602
Xerxes is historically described in Greek and even Jewish sources as being a red-head with a particularly notably fashioned red-beard as well.
And no, the entire Persian invasion force did not face the few thousand Greeks holing up at Thermopylae.
>>334602
Oh, also, I forgot to mention, the rulers of the Persian Empire were not considered divine, any more than Medieval European monarchs were considered divine. A concept of the "divine right of kings" was very much a part of Persian kingship, but they weren't worshiped as deities, and everyone was well aware that they could most certainly bleed.
Persians were whiter than the Greeks at the time..
No shit.
Look it up.
>>334694
Why are you bringing up whiteness? I mean yeah even Xenophon himself describes himself and his fellow Greeks as being "sunkissed" compared to "pale" complexions of Persians.
But what do you mean at "the time" exactly? Iranians look as they do now as they did back then for the native ones. Sure there are a lot of Turkified Azeris but light skinned Persians still exist who can pass as being "fully white" for whatever historical impact that has.
>>334727
>Why are you bringing up whiteness?
Because it's another thing the movie got wrong, and in Hollywood people pay attention to skin color in casting, so it was likely not accidental.
>>334753
Where all ancient Greeks nordic looking 6.2+ tall super pale warriors back then?
just stopping by to remind you that the movie was based of a comic and the comic's author openly states that it's all bullshit made for a good show
>>334780
I only remember seeing the comic author saying he hates Iranians and think all Muslims should die.
>>334782
>>334791
he wrote "holy terror" for fucks sake, who doesn't know this?
it's Frank Miller, he doesn't do rational.
>>334759
not that anon, but AFAIK most people in ancient Greece were hairy, olive-skinned and curly-haired, and generally probably didn't look much different than, say, Lebanese, or modern Greeks.
Persians might've varied a bit due to intermingling with surrounding non-Persians. The area where they settled was filled with brown people, but they themselves were pale as fuck. I've definitely read Xerxes, Cyrus, and Zarathustra being described as red-bearded white people. And I think I remember reading this account from the Persian Wars about Greek soldiers stripping a captured Persian soldier and laughing at how pale he was, though I could be misremembering. Not to mention that there are still white-as-fuck Persians in Iran like pic related.
>>334863
The Elamites were largely concentrated an area straddling the borders of the modern-day Pars/Fars province to parts of eastern and central Iraq. The Persians didn't really intermix with them much.
300 while certainly inaccurate would have been greatly enjoyed by the Hellenes given the GLORIOUS ARETE displayed by the Spartans.
>>334911
Their modern day descendants hated the movie.
>>334782
>>334791
lol who cares
>>334950
I mean, I'm no Musselman but there's a difference between someone making something for fun, and 'for a good show' and making something because he was hurt in the butt.
SPARTA, PATRON OF A SINGLE ART: WAR
"Thucidides, an Athenian was right in stating that Sparta would be forgotten, if its buildings were what mattered. It wasn’t however. It was its people. Its men who fought, its women who stayed back and were equal to them, considering each birth a battle, and each Spartan child a victory"
>>333837
No one ever used rhinos, they can't even be tamed, unlike elephants.
Naphta or some petrol is believable, but gunpowder is more than a millenia away.
>>333870
All the while being played by a brazilian actor which looks as persian as my less crazy uncle.
>>334530
Sparta beat Athens on land war at 404 bc. If it was anyone else, Athens would have been razed and enslaved. However, even despite their allies urging them to do so, Sparta refused to do this to feelow greeks. It wasn't an exception, it also spared Thebes in 494 bc and Argos in 382 bc.
Many more things that Spartans did and were famous for are simply unkown. Such as the absolute synchronized way they fought in. Spartan hoplites could turn on a dime, performing complex maneuvers with a lighting speed. According to some Greek historians they even wore nametags in the form of wooden tablet. They marched and fought in step.
Sparta had quirks which contrast with their better known traits.
For example, from their point of view, they didn't treat the helots all that bad. Brutally yes, but not much more than they treated themselves.
continued...
>>335108
Spartans despised archery. They hated it so much in fact that a dying Spartan is depicted by Plutarch in his work “Ethica” (of morals) as complaining that he dies because of an arrow shot by an effeminate archer. Archery and cavalry however, were the two areas the Spartans were severely lacking in. Kretan archers however, were respected warriors and were considered an integral part of Spartan army, They fought alongside the Spartans ever since King Theopompos in the 8th century BCE.
Historically, Spartans after the loss at Sphakteria realised the importance of light cavalry (to be able to break up toxotai and akontistai formations) and a proffesional archery force to fight against archers. Kretan archers were recruited to fight as mercenaries but also to train the new Perioikoi toxotai elite archer force. Recruited from the most trusted of Perioikoi, they would continue the tradition of Kretan archery, but also be more patriotic then them. Even if Spartans were the absolute overlords of their country, Perioikoi felt they were part of the Spartan heritage too. Thus, even if not as good fighters as the Spartans, they could go up against other cities’ troops easily. As their officers were Spartans, their battle worth would be even higher.
Perioikoi Tarantinoi are the Spartan version of the Tarentines who fought for all the Hellenistic Kingdoms and were a mainstay in all their armies. Aitolian league had them and so did the Achaians. Sparta couldn’t fall behind, and it didn’t. Excellent horsemen, equipped with javelins and a round argive/aspis shield. Their tactical role would be that of skirmish cavalry but with a twist. After shooting off their arrows they should attack at the weakest point of the enemy line. Or they should withdraw at the rear to serve as reserves. Both those are the tactical roles that the Tarantines had according to ancient writers of the Tactica.
>>331598
well the Greeks DID beat the Persians eventually, they won the war and then Alexander came in and kicked the Persians in the pants.
Xerxes was a white bearded dude. Whatever your thoughts on race, 300 took liberties with his portrayal.
>>331646
getting the flank on the enemy in a battle is very fucking decisive dude
its like fighting a two-front war on a very small scale, it wears your army out extremely quickly and the lack of escape hurts morale, if it weren't the spartans most other armies would have broken and tried to flee through the flanking army only to be slaughtered.
>>331557
The Spartans were a slave society if there ever was one. Making them free-loving rebels was the biggest thing wrong with the movie.
>>331557
>were the Spartans as based as this movie implies?
most accounts of the time seem to think so
there prowess is obviously exaggerated but they were definitely badasses who gave no fucks. The Spartans straight up told the Persian emperor to fuck off and leave the ionians alone upon first meeting.
>>335188
You mean red-bearded.
>>335183
They only staved off the conquest of Greece. Thrace and Macedon got trounced several times and the Ionian Greeks constantly got their shit kicked in. Especially earlier on when using the same tactics and units as their homeland relatives did against Cyrus and Darius.
>>334911
I'm not sure since the Spartans in the movie make anti-boyloving comments. The ancient Greeks loved them some boyloving, and IIRC considered a passion for sex with little boys to be one of the defining differences between Greeks and Barbarians.
>>335414
>you're not civilized if you don't love shota boipussy Barbarian
>>335414
It has to do with Frank's and Zach's ignorance. Pederasty was most heavily prevalent among Dorians Greek and even more so with the Spartans themselves practiced this custom because younger and older male soldiers would "couple" as teacher and student during the former's apprenticeship to become a Spartan adult.
So yes, its ironic given that boy-fucking was a lot more socially accepted in Sparta and other Dorian populated regions of Greece then Athens by any stretch.
>>335365
>staved off the conquest of Greece
Which is a victory. Not to mention it was devastating for Persia in the long-run as it showed their tribunals that they aren't as powerful as everyone thought they were, and that the Greeks soon afterwards continued to support Greek-settlement revolts in Asia Minor , which was the reason why Persia even went to war against Greece in the first place, and further enforced the previous statement about their reputation getting tarnished in the eyes of their subjects.
>Thrace
Thrace isn't Hellenic.
>Macedon
Macedon wasn't taken by force, but became vessel state for the Persians after they conquered Thrace decades earlier.
>>335617
>Which is a victory.
An insignificant one to the Persians. Because outside of Greek independence, the Greeks never actively achieved anything else against the Persian Empire.
>it was devastating in the long run
Those are factors that have nothing to do with the Greece-Persian War.
>Greek-settlement revolts in Asia Minor
Which is in turn how the Persians responded after their second failed invasion by playing divide and distract tactic by constantly playing off Athens and Sparta against one another.
Who ultimately profited from this? The Persians did and to a lesser extent, the Spartans when Athena's and the Delian League were ultimately humiliated by the Persian-sponsored and supported Spartans.
And the entire enmity the Persians had for the Greeks was because of Athens and a few other city-states in Greece being the equivalent to modern-terrorist sponsoring nations using today's vernacular.
The Greeks started this war in the first place.
>Thrace isn't Hellenic.
I never said it was in my post.
>Macedon wasn't taken by force
Yes it was, they forcefully compelled to become vassals and subjects of the Achaemenids under Mardonius by the point of the sword literally.
You know little of anything about Persian history.
>>331666
The comic book isn't supposed to be accurate. Frank has said that it's all about being cool. Snyder's movie is, by extension, no more historically accurate, regardless of what Snyder thinks himself.
>>335710
Not him but wouldn't the Greek independence be a significant thing since it paved the way for Alexander to start his conquests?
>>331726
>The final stand at Thermopylae was not by 300 Spartans.
YOU FORGOT THE THESPIANS
>>335872
>paved the way
how exactly?
his daddy destroying all of greece had more to do with that.
>>334602
>Sparta was a proto-Fascist slave state in which the majority of sex was between grown men and little boys
>>335911
If Darius' goal of conquering Greece had happened, there would have been no way that Alexander could have gotten most of Greece and started expanding east.
>>335934
if philip was sterile, there is no way alexander could have started expanding further east.
The fact is alexander caught the persians with their pants down, that doesn't take away from his accomplishments in any way whatsoever, but he couldn't have done something similar against the persians in their heyday.
>>335950
It really wasn't so much that the Persians were weak by the time of Alexander. The Persians still had the power to field 100,00 men during bad times. It's just that the Greek hoplite was the best infantry at the time, so the Persians couldn't really match up to them.
>>331557
Let's count, shall we?
>Persians have battle-rhinos, beast-men and LOTR extras
>the Immortals are Arab ninjas
>Xerxes is a 10 foot tall black gay man who considers himself a deity and wears nothing but piercings
>Persians have slaves (Slavery was prohibited by the Cyrus cylinder)
>Sparta is not shown to have many slaves or to be particulary brutal with them (in fact, helots made an enormous parts of the populace, and the Spartan conduct towards them was incredibly brutal)
>there were only 300 Greeks at Thermopylae (numbers are contested, but Spartans had several thousand allied hoplites with them, and these were told to retreat only after Leonidas realised the mountain pass was found, he remained with his Spartans to buy time)
>Persians have some strange, decadent orgies
>Persians look Arab... ish
So it's not exactly accurate.
Picture is a relief of Persian Immortals
>>335872
How is it significant for Persia? You're talking about almost 2 centuries later when Philip II and Alexander get involved from Macedonia. The ultimate end game result for the Persians and Greeks was the Greeks retained their independence and the Persians kept to Thrace and Asia.
The only major precedent here is from every Persian ruler after Xerxes the Great, the Persians would play the Greeks especially Spartans and Athenians against each other. Like I said earlier, the Persians played divide and distract between Sparta and her allies vs Athens and her allies/vassals in the Delian League.
>>335966
The factors that lead to the fall of the Achaemenid dynasty and their Persian Empire wasn't as simple as just "Alexander was that good and Macedonian and Greek Hoplites are too OP please nerf" but rather a lot of tactical errors. There was a chance the Persians could've very easily annihilated Alexander's entire war effort right at the start when at Granicus when Darius III was planning on hitting Alexander's army from the rear but his advisors told him not too, to let more men join their main force from the satraps still joining the main army.
And when the Persians did seize tactical advantage properly, like at the Battle of the Persian Gates, they did pretty good job of fucking up Alexander for over a month before being forced to take a final stand outside the gates of Persepolis itself.
>>335971
Those reliefs aren't exactly what I would call 100% accurate of the Persian phenotype. But modern day Persians living where Persepolis is in the Pars/Far Province do tend to be a bit more "tanned" then their counterparts from Northern or Central Iran.
Pic related.
>>335986
That is true, Persians are "whiter" than they are on the relief. I just posted it to show how the Immortals truly looked like to the OP.
>>331891
They did have an excellent administration, though. For instance, their tax system was quite advanced and they had the first postal system in the world. Both require an efficient administration.
>>335979
It is true though. Macedonia had the strongest professional army at the time. It's like WW2 France and Nazi Germany. The French weren't bad, but they had to fight the best. There were many Greek hoplite fighting with the Persians also.
Persia didn't sen diplomats to Sparta or Athens in the second invasion, so the whole this is Sparta scene never happens
>>336000
Here's a link on the tax system.
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/achaemenid-taxation
And here's for the postal system (yeah, I know it's Wikipedia, but it contains Herodotus' description)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapar_Khaneh
>>331557
That movie trailer is full of butthurt Persian commentors on Youtube.
btw do we have a Greek here?
>>335872
You do realize most of the greeks hated Alexander and the Macedonians and only joined him cause his dad beat the shit out of them? So greek independence would make shit harder for him.
Hell, Athenians and Thebans were planning a revolt together Menmon of Rhodes, whom was a Greek admiral for the Persian/Ionian navy and if he didnt die of illness before he could reach Athens then it wouldnt have been only Sparta that the Macedonains faced at Megalopolis in aid of Persia.
>>336025
I'm not saying the Macedonian army wasn't the greatest professional fighting force in the world at that point, I'm saying there were tons of more mitagating factors and influences that lead to the decline and fall of the Persian Empire then just the average quality of the average Macedonian or Greek soldier in Alexander and Philip's army..
And your example with France vs Germany doesn't even work, the Germans were even fielding inferior tanks and mechanized units against the French. Which again plays about my point that a lot of it had to do with variables like Darius III fucking up listening to his advisors instead of seizing the initiative to preempt a rear night attack on Alex's vulnerable rear lines and baggage trains.
>>336044
>A movie trailer with the modern equivalent of The Eternal Jew at aimed at Persians with its racebaiting and attack on their cultural identity is unsurprisingly focused on by said people negatively
Woah, you are like a genius dude!
>>335966
>best heavy infantry at the time
yeah sure.
>>331667
>Ephialtes wasn't real
I remember reading somewhere that Ephialtes had become a synonym in Greek culture for traitor, like Judas or Benedict Arnold, that kind of thing
>>336051
Just shut up. There's a ton of evil German movies and nobody cares here. It's just that stupid butthurt behaviour of people who live outside of Germanic Europe.
Still searching a Greek here.
>>336063
>Just shut up.
No, why should I?
>There's a ton of evil German movies
There isn't a ton of movies that try to pass themselves off as being historically accurate nor race-bait about the Germans themselves or their own cultural identity and ethnicity. You let me know when there an anti-German movie where it depicts them as being effeminate, homosexual, mutants, and furries under the guise of "historical" accuracy in a fictional work.
>It's just that stupid butthurt behaviour of people who live outside of Germanic Europe.
You sound like a /pol/ apologist.
>>336063
yes, but germans by and large have been taught to look upon everything pre ww2 with disdain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius#German_nationalism
>>336063
>>336044
Are you retarded? If I was Persian I'd be fucking livid. Did you not notice most of them or other Iranians aren't up in arms over Persians losing to the Greeks but how it fucking treats Persians?
>not a single ethinc Persian or Iranian actor in the first movie
>cast for Persian extras are all Arabs, Far Easterner Asians, and Africans
>Xerxes is a giant black man who is portrayed as being a sexual deviant and acts like god
>All other "Persian" officials are played by actors who are not remotely close to being Iranian in appearance like the messenger/officer Leonidas kicks
>Persians apparently dressed like medieval Muslim Arab/Caliphate soldiers (just like in the Alexander movie a few years earlier too!)
>Persians are evil and hate freedom
Their "butthurt" is pretty justifiable on those premises alone, bud.
>>336071
>persians are dressed inaccurately like in the alexander movie
what? I thought the costumes were rather well done. Nothing OTT but simple persian pajamas
>>336076
Achaemenid Persians did not dress like medieval Caliphate era Arab soldiers, the Alexander movie was colossally bad even in custome designs. Just like how it had the extremely well recorded Bactarian princess of Darius III who was known for her "fair skin", red hair, and light complexion be played by a black actress.
Alexander missed a lot of things too.
>>336045
If the Persians had succeeded in conquering Greece, they wouldn't have allowed Phillip to fight the city states since the Persians learned of their mistake of putting tyrants in power over the Greeks at Asia Minor. Phillip then wouldn't have an outstanding army or plans to expand east that would be inherited to Alexander.
>>336076
The only uniforms or costumes the 2004 movie got somewhat right was the Persian archers. Hell there are even very clearly extras in the movie who can be heard speaking in Arabic and the director's choice in thinking that "Arab camels" were vanguards or elite units in the Persian Army was not remotely accurate either.
>>336092
>>336101
yeah, the hydaspes river part was full fantasy tier. especially because alexander's cavalry maneuvers couldn't be done in wooded terrain.
I haven't seen the entire movie, but I watched the guagamela battle scene, and it prominently featured persian archers, so I extrapolated.
also the entire part of having a black actress play roxanne left a bad taste in my mouth
>>336095
Alright fair enough but with the greeks you never know when it comes to revolts.
>since the Persians learned of their mistake of putting tyrants in power over the Greeks at Asia Minor
That was some hilarious shit how they started with a elected Satrap then got confused how people were unhappy with it and how they wanted a Tyrant. So they switched to a Tyrant only to have a revolt on their hands and then switch back again to Satrap.
Some parts were pretty good. They captured the essence of the Spartans quite a bit. Most was bullshit though. Even the way they fought was trash. The Greeks fought with overhead spears, not resting the spear on their shields. The Spartans were also not the first to face the Persian onslaught, but were kept in reserve.
All in all, an interesting movie about possibly one of the greatest moments in Western civilisation, but filled to the brim with Hollywood BS. I'd really love a modern historically accurate movie based on the battle, but that is unlikely. A really good novel about this is Gates of Fire. Historical fiction that is surprisingly accurate and the Thermopylae sections really makes you think about the hell the Greeks went through. Imagine after days of fighting, while being covered in bruises, cuts, broken bones, and surrounded by dead comrades you may have spent your whole life training with, you had to get up to do it all again. The balls of these men brings tears to the eye.
>>336066
facepalm.jpg
It's just a Hollywood movie and like most other movies in the world, it's based on a made up story. Go back to Persia if you don't like the Western world and it's Western movies.
>under the guise of "historical" accuracy in a fictional work.
You probably believe the "based on real incidents"-quote in movies.
If there's later a Greek in this thread, please tell me what this miniature churches are. I saw hundrets of them when I was in Greece, but I didn't know what they were. All of them were different and positioned in various locations.
>We will never get an entertaining but historically accurate depiction of Ancient Greece and Persia
Kill me.
>>336113
They're relics, whoever gets all of them and keeps them for a week wins the game.
>>336115
>we will never get an entertaining but historically accurate depiction of Roman-Persian wars as Cataphracts charge into a Roman testudo
>always the western front where a Legion wanders into the forest and slaughters ten times more Germanians
macta me
>>336113
Those are built for the people that died on the road at the place of their death.
It's a thing some people do to "honor" their life and death.
It is weird, but religious people do it sometimes.
>>334602
>>334613
This. Also, the Persians didn't practice slavery. IIRC, slavery was common in the Persian Empire as a whole, but not among the Persians themselves. Because, in addition to being against slavery, they were also basically the bleeding heart liberals of their day and were against imposing their culture and values on others. Like, off the top of my head, there was that one story from I wanna say The Histories of Herodotus, where the Persian king Darius asks a group of Greeks who were present at a congress how much he would have to pay them to eat their dead fathers. The Greeks are horrified at the concept, say no amount of money would get them to do that. So then Darius summons some members of an Indian tribe who eat their dead parents how much money it would take for them to agree to cremate their fathers' bodies, and the Indians "cried out in horror and forbade him to say such ghastly things". And then Darius makes some point about cultural relativism or something IIRC.
IMO if the Achaemenid Persians had a major cultural flaw (I mean, relative to the era), it's that they were the liberal bleeding heart "u cant judge other cultures man the truth is in the middle its all shades of grey man *smokes bong*" kumbaya moral relativists of their day. And then a Macedonian burned down their capital. Just sayin'.
LIBERALISM: NOT EVEN ONCE
>>336220
That actually sounds awesome.
>>331557
>not appreciating how poetic the movie was
>not understanding that it was movie adapted from a comic
>taking non-documentary "history" films seriously
If you we're taking things less literal, pretty sure you'll appreciate the movie.
>>331586
Not even Herodotus says that. He doesn't forget to mention the help of thespians, thebans and others, like the movie does. Actually the movie also mentions them, though it's just in a couple of scenes to show how shit they're compared to Spartans, completely against what Herodotus says.
>>335872
He literally was from the only place in the european hellenic world that wasn't independent. At least not in the timeframe we're talking about.
I don't know why people mixes the invasion of greece with Alexander, it happened 100 years before. Alexander connected it, but that's because conquerors will always try to get a casus belli.
>>335189
Not to mention that Xerxes sent his elite forces to the "path over there". Probably the same kind troops that resisted (and was massacred) in the persian central section in Marathon, when the two flanks fled. Spartans were not being otuflanked by some shitty mesopotamian levy.
All I can say is that I discovered 4chan the same time this movie came out. Sparta-posting was pure fun, but would be deemed cancerous today.
Bye bye, I'm off to swfchan, wallowing in nostalgia.
>>336044
Well no shit, Disney's Hercules movie is still banned in Greece to this day because it's so utterly insulting to them. If I was Persian I would be pissed off too.
>>331598
Sparta's fighting prowess was the best in Greece during the 5th century BC, this is why Athens refused to meet them in the field during the Peloponnesian war and the purpose of the Periclean Wall.
>>336333
>Persian == Arab
Holy shit anon what are you smoking?
>>335338
According to the own greek sources, spartans were buttdevastated because they were famous in Greece but when they arrived to Sardes the persian king asked something like "Who the fuck are the spartans?"
Modern source: Tom Holland
>>336370
>Doesn't the average american
reading comprehension
>>335934
I never understood this. People keeps repeating it, but it doesn't make any sense. Darius conquered Macedonia, home of Philip. How is conquering other hellenic states more important for Macedonian expansion, when Macedonia itself was conquered?
>>335971
You forgot the most important parts.
>Spartans don't wear armour, their abs are enough
>Spartans intentionally break formation
>Spartans have no idea how to use spears in individual combat
>what are sparabara
>where are Persian archers?
>>336388
>Modern source: Tom Holland
I think we read the same book
>buy book expecting to learn more about the persians
>it's to 80% about the greeks
Still an enjoyable read.
>>331598
>it looks like they're going full fiction
The movie is based off a comic book.
>>336396
I understood you. But Persians and Arabs look nothing alike. If you made Xerxes as he truly would have been, he would look nothing like how an average American (trusting your words, at least) pictures a Persian and therefore could not be used as propaganda.
>>336370
You're the one smoking, as you clearly can't read well.
>>336180
Thanks anon, now I understand why most of them were near roads. Some of us do the same with a wooden cross and Jesus on it.
>>336415
Khomeini looks 100% like Sean Connery. If you give a beard and a robe to the average westener, he passes as middle eastener. What the west considers "arab" (read=from MENA) has little to do with whiteness.
I mantain that an historically accurate Xerxes would've been more according to the iranian on americans' mind. I'm sure as fuck that not even the americans consider the persians to be black brasilians.
>>336426
Fair point.
>>336111
A better book is Tom Holland's Persian Fire. Like most Holland's works (good or bad) it's very easy to get trough.
Also it's not just about the termopylae but pretty much about all the historical events Herodotus tells us, but told by an actual modern historian.
>>335966
Macedonian phalangites you mean.
>>336111
I thought the jury was out on whether spears were used over hand / under hand or am i out of the loop ?
>>336220
They were not liberal hippies. They were just pragmatic, when you cannot impose your culture (and they could not) it's useless to try.
>>331667
1 million soldiers is a quite possible number, for example Battle of Chang Ping has a number of 700.000 soldiers total from both sides, and it was in 262 bc
>>336403
Yeah it was the same for me, but I wasn't surprized. In fact I liked it that he dedicated so much space to give the persians a background, other writers wouldn't do that.
>>336644
And the source for the numbers isn't herodotus tier?
>>336644
China has always had ridiculous population numbers.
>>336111
>Thermopylae
>one of the greatest moments in Western civilisation
It was exactly as a Greek storyteller would have told it. Overdramatised, exaggerated and full of embellishments to make it an awesome ride but basically yeah that what happened.
A very outnumbered troup of Greeks led by Spartans held ground against a fuckton of Persians while the Athenians defeated the Persians at sea, thereby effectively ending the second Persian invasion and allowing Athens to rise as hegemon of Greece and thus start what our own mythology calls "western civilisation".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Persian_invasion_of_Greece
It's not actually that hard. Read this as primer then read big old books and shit.
ITT
We accuse Arthur Miller of being a bigot and never post any evidence.
>>337302
t. never read any of the posts in the thread
>>331923
>Miller is also noted to have made racist comments about Iranians
>what did miller say?
>Uh can't remember exactly
>Frank Miller, the graphic novel's creator, considers even the fantastical liberties his comic takes to be "in line" with the actual historical reality of the battle
>it's Frank Miller, he doesn't do rational.
not a single goddamn quote outside of a contextual statement about the enormous size of the Persian Empire.
You guys are a fucking joke.
The movie is told from the perspective of a Greek trying to rouse his men to fend off the invading army of Persians
>>337327
>one of the greatest Persian kings is a tyrannical 10 foot homosexual black man dressed solely in piercings who thinks himself a deity
>Persians have weird as fuck decadent orgies
>Persians have a lot of slaves and are incredibly brutal towards them, meanwhile, Spartans have almost none (the opposite is true, slavery was prohibited in Persia by the Cyrus cylinder)
>Persia is le evil empire
Yup, no bigotry detected. Absolutely impartial. You could read it instead of a textbook
>>337373
>hurr I can't find a single racist comment Miller has made
>trust me, a thematic device used to illuminate the mindset of the Spartan messenger is totally conclusive evidence of bias.
>>337380
I'm not the guy that claimed racist comments. I don't know if Miller made any. But seriously, that film could only be the product of a Persiaboo well versed in history, who still decided to ignore his pro-Persian bias for the sake of accuracy and remaining impartial.
>>336220
Not actually Achaemenid, but this is rather something the Parthians and Sassananians did. When Romans were captured in war (and taken via looting cities) they were placed into a state of semi-slavery. The family would be relocated to to the fertile crescent and made to farm in the region. Only the captive/captives were considered slaves, any children had would have equal rights within the empire. The farming life on the fertile crescent was actually safer and more comfortable than many other places throughout either empires, and it had the bonus of giving invading Romans an incentive to not torch the land seeing how it was being tilled by fellow countrymen (can't say that worked 100% of the time though).
>>337380
I imagine your compatriots would laugh at you if you told them that the Persian army had almost no archers, sparabaras or takabaras, but instead had giants, common Arabs, Arab ninjas, LOTR extras and battle-rhinos.
>>337327
>Frank Miller literally defended every piece of that shitty Holy Terror comic trash he wrote
>"Its not meant to be racist!"
>"Its just from the Greek perspective!"
The fucker is as right-winged as Sara Palin's cervaix, a literal Neo-Con hardcore anti-Iranian sensationalist as one can get. Even Herodotus didn't vilify Persians so don't push this shit about Miller not being racist.
>>337380
>>337401
Here's your racist comments, from an interview he did a while back;
NPR: Um, and when you say we don’t know what we want, what’s the cause of that do you think?
FM: Well, I think part of that is how we’re educated. We’re constantly told all cultures are equal, and every belief system is as good as the next. And generally that America was to be known for its flaws rather than its virtues. When you think about what Americans accomplished, building these amazing cities, and all the good its done in the world, it’s kind of disheartening to hear so much hatred of America, not just from abroad, but internally.
NPR: A lot of people would say what America has done abroad has led to the doubts and even the hatred of its own citizens.
FM: Well, okay, then let’s finally talk about the enemy. For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we’re up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent. These people saw people’s heads off. They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I’m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I’m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built.
His opinion of middle eastern folk is pretty clear here. Although to be fair, it was clear just watching 300 or reading his comics. The only reason one would say otherwise, imo, would be because they have similar sentiments and don't want to admit it.
>>331572
>There were 300 Spartans, but also a few thousand Argives iirc.
I think every Spartan brought with him 5 of those messenian slaves they conquered years before called helots.
>>333455
Until they got rekt by a band of faggots. Literally
>>336057
its true. well, I mean I also read it on persian fire by Tom Holland
>>337771
He also thinks Iranians don't care about their Pre-Islamic past or heritage.
>PLAYBOY: Through a spokesman, Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called the film “an insult” to Iran, as well as a “fabrication” and an act of “cultural and psychological warfare.” Do you consider it an accomplishment to have pissed off Ahmadinejad?
>MILLER: I’m ready for my fatwa now. [laughs] I’m banned from Iran, but believe me, I’ve made much greater sacrifices. What I love is that I actually made the Iranian government change its historical policy toward Persia. It went from despising the empire of Persia to all of a sudden loving it, after 300. Persia had been a globe-spanning empire, then Muhammad came along and changed the mentality and rewrote all the histories. Iran’s days of empire are long gone, and they were just looking for something to get pissed off about.
>>337771
But m-m-muhslamic golden age
>>331557
Persians never- at any point in history- worshipped a "God King"
This was more of a misunderstanding of the act of Proskenysis. Which is the traditional persian gesture of prostration before the King of Kings.
Greeks worship their gods like this and went LOL THEY WORSHIP KINGS KEK
The irony being that Greeks ended up being *the* King Worshippers. They built temples for Alexander, Ptolemy, and Seleucos.
>>337309
To be fair nobody attacking the numbers has posted an actual source.
"most modern scholars agree" is in no way an actual source and I've seen it used half a dozen times in this thread without a shred of actual evidence.
>>338741
To be fair, 3 gorillion isn't accepted either.
>>338753
Well sure, but saying "oh no, the sources stating 3kabillion must be wrong; it was 5 guys and a horse because of this acclaimed scholar I don't have the name of" isn't either.
It's like when holocaust deniers try to work the numbers down from 12+ million deaths to like 400,000 or when Lufftwaffe apologists try to inflate the Dresden numbers from 30,000 to 1 million.
The odds of the Persians fielding an army of more than one million men, just fighters, is admittedly extremely low, but at the same time I want to see any backing to the "source" (nigga literally didn't drop a single name) saying that the Greeks outnumbered the Persians at Marathon.
>>338787
>Holocaust
I was referring to Herodotus' imaginary numbers of gorillions of Persians.
>>338787
I mentioned Grote earlier in the thread, nigger.
>>338792
Yes, and I was referring to historical revisionism as a whole.
>>334602
Athenian women were not allowed outside alone because Athens had worse crime than any other citystate. Rape was a huge problem. Theres logic and a desire to protect behind these rules not misogyny. Spartan women did have it pretty good though, better than 300 depicts actually.
>>338787
There was that one dude who mentioned Hanson, but then again, just dropped his name from a "2005 article" with no internal citations or anything.
>>331598
The Spartans were, hands down, the best heavy infantry of their day. However, they weren't THAT much better than their contemporaries and the average Greek hoplite was no slouch in combat, either.
Their problem was that wars are won by the boring shit. Logistics. Communication. Operational Security. A consistent training pipeline.
That last one is what killed the Spartans. It was 14-23 years to fully train a Spartan Hoplite, depending on how long it took him to be accepted into a communal mess called a Syssitia. If he didn't do it by age 31, he was dropped from the Spartiate and while there were plenty of ways to get kicked out of the Spartiate, there were almost no ways to get into it outside of birth. Xenophon managed to get two of his sons into the Agoge but he was a huge Spartaboo. I can think of no one else who accomplished that task. The Spartan solution to this was simply "Have more Babies"
His Athenian counterpart wasn't that much worse than him and could be trained in a matter of months. When the Athenian fell, the man who would take up his spear was a few months away. When the Spartan fell, the man who would take up his spear was decades away. So when you're getting into a rapid succession of high intensity conflicts with high rates of attrition, it's going to grind your Phalanx down from a few thousand in the Persian Wars (if we are to accept Xenophon's numbers as accurate) to a few Hundred by the time that they faced the sacred band. Their Theban and Athenian counterparts never had this issue.
>>337771
>FM: Well, okay, then let’s finally talk about the enemy. For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we’re up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent. These people saw people’s heads off. They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I’m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I’m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built.
>any of this having to do with iran
Was he asked about Persia or Iran or the 300 comic or something? Because anyone coming across this and reading it as if it is directed towards Iran is a fucking moron. And people in this thread are trying to convince others that he's a moron for believing that about Iran?
it's tautological. He's a racist moron because of X, where only other racist morons can believe X.
I read an article online concerning the rise of Thebes and their victories over Sparta where the writer said that Spartans would have been smaller then the Thebans due to their poor diet as children and would have been more lean compared to the Thebans who raised cattle. I don't have any sources for this but I would like to hear your opinions.
WE WUZ PERSIANS AND SHIT
>>340460
>Because anyone coming across this and reading it as if it is directed towards Iran is a fucking moron
Umm... It's very clearly directed toward Iran. None of it applies to Achaemenid Persia. A) it was well before the 6th Century; B) they were comparatively very civilized, moreso than the Greeks actually; C) Quite literally none of those things he lists apply to Achaemenid Persia -- they don't apply to Iran, either, but they are generally generically associated with Islamic Extremism, which Iran is often associated with; C) three thousand people weren't killed by a plane in the movie, because; D) there weren't any fucking planes or microphones involved, as even Frank Miller isn't dumb enough to think either of those things existed back then, and also; E) America didn't exist either (unless you mean as in the continents themselves, whose existence neither the Greeks nor the Persians were even aware of).
The only moron I see here is you. Honestly, are you trolling? Because if so then... well, shit, you got me. Well done I guess.
>>340567
>It's very clearly directed toward Iran. None of it applies to Achaemenid Persia.
None of it applies to Iran, either. That's the point. You have to be ignorant to think that he's talking about Iran. You're just assuming his bias and interpreting his words that way.
>they don't apply to Iran, either, but they are generally generically associated with Islamic Extremism, which Iran is often associated with;
That's you making that association, not him, especially not with that quote. That's why I'm asking if he made that association at all or if he was even asked about the comic.
>three thousand people weren't killed by a plane in the movie
>planes and microphones and America didn't exist in ancient greece
Yeah he's talking about 9/11 retard.
>>331557
i laughed my ass off when spartan king insulted Athenians for being boy lovers.
i know it's Frank Miller being Frank Miller, but he couldn't write more ironic shit if he tried.
>>332095
You don't have to be a total faggot and constantly shit on Americans at every opportunity, you know.
>>336388
yeah they were butthurt about him not knowing of them
>>340643
It doesn't apply to Achaemenid Persia either. As I fucking said, as you would've been able to read if you weren't so fucking illiterate, they're generic "Islam bad" traits mentioned whenever a dumb person like Frank Miller starts talking about the Middle East, whose countries such people generally can't (or at least can only barely) distinguish between.
>Yeah he's talking about 9/11 retard.
I know, you fucking idiot, that's my point. You'd have to be some sort of drooling retard to not realize that it's a "the middle easterns dun 9/11 they bad death to Islam" screed.
I mean, I get that you're stupid, and that's fine, but are you really that stupid? Or are you just some sort of drooling Frank Miller fanboy?
>>340702
>It doesn't apply to Achaemenid Persia either. As I fucking said, as you would've been able to read if you weren't so fucking illiterate, they're generic "Islam bad" traits mentioned whenever a dumb person like Frank Miller starts talking about the Middle East, whose countries such people generally can't (or at least can only barely) distinguish between.
>let me just tell you what frank miller thinks
>I know, you fucking idiot, that's my point.
No, it's my point. It looks like he was asked questions about politics and international relations after 9/11 and gives an answer. What does it have to do with the comic or the movie? Nothing. What does it have to do with Iran? Nothing. Why would anyone read those words and then immediately think -- "I know, that's about Iran"? No one would unless they were clueless and even then they might not even try to make that leap of logic.
Yet it's posted her as an indication that he hates Iran? Ok, retard.
>to not realize that it's a "the middle easterns dun 9/11 they bad death to Islam" screed.
I try to let people speak for themselves instead of just making up shit for them, which is pretty hilarious considering that's what you're accusing Frank Miller of doing to Iranians. If you read those quotes again you can see he actually makes a pretty clear distinction between ancient Iran and post-Islamic Iran.
>Frank Miller fanboy
No, I barely know anything about him, which is why I was asking.
>fucking illiterate, they're generic "Islam bad" traits mentioned
>it's a "the middle easterns dun 9/11 they bad death to Islam" screed.
Good lord. I'm the illiterate one? Don't quit your day job to become a mindreader, you fucking idiot.
>>335903
and you forgot the Thebans
>>340752
Combine his stated, known views on the Middle East with his works about the Persian Wars -- keeping in mind, also, that Iran is pretty widely hated in America, especially by the very types of people who would have a foggy-at-best understanding of the differences between different Middle-Eastern cultures, and the fact that the "Persians" in 300 do seem to be just generically villainous Orientalist "Others" with not even the vaguest resemblance to historical Achaemenid Persia. I know extrapolation is difficult for autists (especially retarded autists), but just try your best little buddy :^)
>>340828
>Combine his stated, known views
Well, where the fuck are they?
Someone asked, nobody answered. Then comes a random quote from an NPR interview that has nothing to do with the book, movie, or Iran. Total number of stated, well known Frank Miller views on Iran so far: 0.
>Iran is pretty widely hated in America, especially by the very types of people who would have a foggy-at-best understanding of the differences between different Middle-Eastern cultures
Between you, me, and that Frank Miller quote, you're the one who has the foggiest understanding of different Middle Eastern cultures.
You're extrapolating here and then using your own extrapolation to justify thinking that the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. You're a fucking retard.
Fucking autists always have to hijack threads with pointless arguments... No wonder /his/ is dead.
>>340957
>Between you, me, and that Frank Miller quote, you're the one who has the foggiest understanding of different Middle Eastern cultures.
How do you gather that, dear friend?
>You're extrapolating here
Yes, but they're reasonable extrapolations. I'm extrapolating based on what can be gathered that you and Frank Miller are both incredibly stupid and don't know anything about anything. All evidence seems to point to that conclusion.
Honestly criticizing 300 for historical inaccuracy is like flipping your shit over Hercules and Xena, or throwing a fit saying St. Nicholas never actually lived on the North Pole. It never intended to be accurate so why the autism?
>>340997
>How do you gather that, dear friend?
Because you're the only one of the 3 of us who reads about female circumcision, beheading, and planes flying into towers and thinks Iran.
>Yes, but they're reasonable extrapolations.
>Frank Miller is an idiot because--
>well, just trust me, it's Frank Miller.
No, they're not reasonable from that quotation at all. You're justifying your bias here with your bias. It's fucking retarded, and you're a fucking retard for thinking it's not.
It would be reasonable if he had been asked something about the movie or Iran and then said that. Did he? I don't know, that's what I was asking in the first place.
>Combine his stated, known views
Well, where the fuck are they?
>>340556
He looks like a white guy painted black.
>>341016
Possibly because some people might watch a movie like 300 and take everything in it for fact. Then when they go talk to people who really know what happened, it's frustrating because the movie was inaccurate.
However, with things such as St. Nicholas, no one really talks about him historically, and overall is pretty different than talking about the 300 stuff.
>>340957
>Then comes a random quote from an NPR interview that has nothing to do with the book, movie, or Iran.
What? He legitimately stated his opinion about Middle Easterners and dislike of Iranians there, add in the interview with Playboy and he's literally saying he thinks and believes Iranians dont't give a shit about their pre-Islamic history or culture until 300 came.
Even with a verbatim quote of him outright saying "Mohammad just removed all those things from the Persians", and coupled with his past work with that god damn /pol/ tier comic/graphic novel HOLY TERROR and his projections and bias are well known to us.
>>341052
b-b-but no u dont got proof no frank miller dont hate nobody he dindu nuffin wrong ur just a stupid
>>341052
>and dislike of Iranians there
No, he didn't.
>with Playboy and he's literally saying he thinks and believes Iranians dont't give a shit about their pre-Islamic history or culture until 300 came.
the revolution and its revolutionaries suppressed pre-Islamic Iranian beliefs. You could have been tortured or killed for some of them. It's not exactly hateful to call out that hypocrisy later on.
>and coupled with his past work with that god damn /pol/ tier comic/graphic novel HOLY TERROR s.
alright dude let me just read through his whole catalogue of works just to find something that shows me what you're claiming
>his projections and bias are well known to u
Who the fuck is us?
>>341060
samefag
All anyone ever did was ask for proof and you post some bullshit and ask us to trust you. No thanks, retard, why don't you just show me and let me decide for myself?
I don't know much about Frank Miller at all and you just keep trying to justify yourself by stating the same exact thing with more emphasis. That doesn't mean shit to me. Why the fuck would I trust you on knowing anything if your rationale for everything you've said is basically "just trust me dude lol it's frank miller"?
Whatever, faggot. I don't live in the same precious little bubble as you.
>>341303
>No, he didn't.
Yes, he did.
>The revolution
He never said that
>its revolutionaries
Ditto to above.
>suppressed pre-Islamic Iranian beliefs
Wrong.
>You could have been tortured or killed for some of them.
Never happened.
>Who the fuck is us?
Anyone with a brain, so not you. You aspie retard. His quote literally in Playboy is fucking posted in this thread.
>>341389
>Yes, he did.
Yeah, when he was talking about Iranians flying planes into the wtc. Right? Which he did, because Frank Miller's a bigot!!!!!!!!!!!
>The revolution
>its revolutionaries
What do you think Iran is? Where do you think his biases come from? You were trying to educate me about how EVERYBODY KNOWS how Americans feel about Iranians all being Islamic terrorists, and now you're trying to say that has nothing to do with the 1979 Revolution? Your entire fucking justification for feeling this way about Frank Miller is because of American attitudes towards post-revolution Iran. You're a fucking retard.
>Ditto to above. >Wrong.
Are you joking? Maybe you should stop put down the comic books for history books.
>His quote literally in Playboy
>coupled with his past work
"who the fuck is us?" is asking you why you think everybody should know everything about Frank Miller.
The whole fucking idea is nonsense based on what you're saying. You think he hates post-Islam Iran so much that he would intentionally depict pre-Islam Iran negatively? And then quote him talking about 9/11, which came out after the comics, as some kind of proof of it? Jesus fucking christ dude, you're a retard.
If someone asks you to show them something, you can't just be like "i got u dude i extrapolated it from this quote". You're a fucking retard, so nobody is ever going to take your word for it.
>>341469
>extrapolated from this quote
Keep bullshitting, bub.
>>341731
>was Frank Miller asked about Iran prior to answering this question or something?
>no but he is clearly talking about iran, microphones didn't exist in ancient persia, and he's an american and everyone knows how americans feel about iran flying jet planes into the world trade center
>>342091
Who are you quoting?
>>341303
The asshole says that Iranians didn't care about persia's pre islamic history before he made 300.
It is something you would expect an american to say honestly.
>>342091
>"Iranians don't care about their history until 300 came along to poke at it."
Retard.
>>340670
Oh the irony. Why don't you take your own advice for a change
>>340670
the director of this fucking movie literally thinks that a movie with orc ninjas and battlerhinos is 90% historically accurate.
After this movie was released places like imdb were full of posts like "This is why we must nuke the mooslimes".
>>341469
Fuck off Frank Miller.
>>341303
>the revolution and its revolutionaries suppressed pre-Islamic Iranian beliefs. You could have been tortured or killed for some of them. It's not exactly hateful to call out that hypocrisy later on.
That is patently untrue. The Zoroastrians received a minority parliament seat in the Islamic Republic constitution, and freedom to practice their faith. The only setbacks they suffered are pretty much meaningless to their faith - just like other minorities they're forbidden from converting people, and forced to use Persian language in their ministry.
Now I'm not denying the emmigration of Zoroastrians after the revolution, but that was mostly political. Nowadays there's still at least 25.000 of them left and from what I gather, they're quite respected.
>>342102 here >>340567
>>342103
>The asshole says that Iranians didn't care about persia's pre islamic history before he made 300.
>It is something you would expect an american to say honestly.
Sure it is, but I wouldn't call it hateful. Ahmedinejad called 300 propaganda and he made a similarly absurd reaction to it.
It's not exactly wrong, either, considering what the revolution did. I know that Iranians don't feel that way but it is easy to claim when the government acted the way it did. Either way I don't see how that comment, made a decade or whatever after the comic, is evidence that he made the comic specifically to disparage Iranian history because he hates Iran. Why would he even want to mock the pre-Islamic history of Persia if that's the only part of its history he respects?
It doesn't make any sense and an unrelated quote from him talking about 9/11 doesn't show that either. The whole thing just reeks of normal bullshit to me, not some insidious anti-Persia agenda.
>>342143
I agree with you but Iran in the 1980s was a crazy place. If you want to dismiss it all as political that's fine but disallowing people from speaking their feelings on the political process under threat of violence is not what I'd call friendly or respectful. They and other minorities do have token representation but if you think that they could speak up against an Islamic regime in that political climate then I have a bridge to sell you. The reasons for emigration were across the board of economics, politics, etc., but religion absolutely played a role. There are more Zoroastrians in the US than in Iran.
>>342191
>I wouldn't call it hateful
He literally said that it was 90% accurate, a movie that depicts achmeniad persia as what the american midwest thinks the middle east is under islam. Then he has the gall to say that his movie made Iran care about their history.
You do realize what this makes america seem like to the average iranian right?
>>342282
>He literally said that it was 90% accurate,
the director of the movie said that about his movie
>made Iran care about their history.
the guy who did the comic said this after someone asked him about what Ahmadinejad said and is what we were talking about
>You do realize what this makes america seem like to the average iranian right?
of course I do but it's just an offhanded comment in an interview. I mean how do you think it compares to attacking an embassy and holding everybody hostage for a year? One of those things is simple and stupid, one of them is hateful.
>what the american midwest thinks the middle east is under islam
why do half the people here want to shit on him for telling Iranians how they think and justify their feelings about it because of their perception of Americans? Literally pointless.
>>342303
>the guy who did the comic said this after someone asked him about what Ahmadinejad said and this is what we are talking about.
And a totally different anon here but you're missing the part where Frank also believes that Persians don't give two shits about their own history after becoming Muslims until 300, which is textbook bullshit.
Frank Miller in the NPR interview also equated Iranians with 6th century barbarism in his own words without directly naming them but the context of the interview was over 300 movie itself, so the subtext is very implicitly there.
Stop playing fucking damage control.
>>342303
>I mean how do you think it compares to attacking an embassy and holding everybody hostage for a year?
how do you think it compares to overthrowing a democratically elected government and replacing them with your favorite dictators.
>of course I do but it's just an offhanded comment in an interview.
in the context of the interview it reeks of imperialist high handedness that deserves a thrashing.
You have a director of a blockbuster movie attacking the history of an entire people.
Same thing with why Indiana jones and the temple of doom isn't shown in India.
>>342312
>Frank Miller in the NPR interview also equated Iranians with 6th century barbarism in his own words without directly naming them but the context of the interview was over 300 movie itself
That's what I asked in the first place but nobody decided to answer it because it was an out of context quote that had nothing to do with Iran. I still don't see what it has to do with Iran and especially not to do with him writing the comic a decade earlier. Do you think he knew 9/11 was going to happen?
I'm not playing damage control, I don't give a shit about Miller. I read something that piqued my curiosity and then a bunch of faggotry happened because I don't know the entire history of the last 20 years of pop culture.
>but you're missing the part where Frank also believes
Unless he says that shit all the time I wouldn't think that either. It was a simple remark when someone asked him what he thought about a world leader insulting him. It's textbook bullshit, yeah, but that's exactly the point. It's just bullshit.
>>342337
>how do you think it compares to overthrowing a democratically elected government and replacing them with your favorite dictators.
gee I don't know, it's nowhere on the same level as a fucking random comment in a pop culture interview. How do you think it compares?
>You have a director
we're talking about two different people here. I'm talking about the writer of the comic book the film was based on, you're talking about the director making a bullshit film in order to make extra money.
>>342364
And said director said that the film was historically accurate for the most part.
>its nowhere near a random comment
but it is comparable to the hostage crisis for some reason.
>>342387
>And said director said that the film was historically accurate for the most part.
yeah so he's a moron. who cares? nobody disagreed with that
>but it is comparable to the hostage crisis for some reason.
The point is it's not comparable. If you think a comment like that is enough to generate a hateful response, then how do you think something on the scale of an embassy being ransacked and hostages taken or a coup removing an elected leader should make people feel?
If the proper response to the first thing is hate, then there aren't enough nuclear weapons in the world for the other two
>all the insecure Persian faggots ITT implying they're white
The hilarity.
>this one guy on a windmill argument defending Frank Miller from accusations of heavily implied prejudices on the slimmest of technicalities.
>starts Chewbacca Defenceing at times
This guy must be some kind of lawyer practicing his skills or something. I've actually gone from irritated to mildly fascinated.
>>342364
>I still don't see what it has to do with Iran.
Because you are a retarded idiot.
>>342838
>muh whiteness
>>344791
>frank miller's opinions about 9/11 and islam are why he made a historically inaccurate comic about ancient greece in the 1990s
I wondered if he was asked about Iran and someone replied he obviously was because microphones or jet planes didn't exist in ancient persia
>>343095
there were like 30 posts about him hating iran and that's why the comic was the way it was so I was interested to find out what he actually said. Turns out it's nothing because everything he said was after the movie came out 10 years after the comic.
it's just
>everybody knows Americans hate Iran, here's him being mad about 9/11
Not interesting at all. The only thing I got out of it was that people have strong opinions about Frank Miller and there's some other comic that I'm not going to read because I don't give a shit about him.
>>346277
Stop with the retarded strawmans and non-sequiters you autistic retard.
>>346681
It's not a strawman when somebody actually says it.
>>347599
>goes on a nonsensical unrelated tagent with red herrings and non-sequiter claims to deflect
>"its not me putting words in others mouths to save face or anything by making up an existing point never brought up or anything to fit into my changing goal posts guys"
Go away.
>>347632
You're a fucking illiterate fyi
Someone post already that Iranian bingo picture.
>>331557
I AM SO OUTRAGED THAT HOLLYWOOD MADE A PIECE OF FICTION THAT OFFENDED MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
BAN PEOPLE FROM MAKING FICTIONAL THINGS THAT OFFEND MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
(or I'll make threads on a Malaysian weaving FAQ blog)
>accuracy
I didn't see any cheesy blue carpeting, white statues and gold curtainrods.
>>347659
You are autistic.
Anyone know any good books about roman or persian history worth checking out?
Preferably at least 90% accurate without magic bullshit
I know fuck all about books or reliable authors
>>347822
>I'm a huge fag.
Thanks for the post dude.
>>347914
Herodotus :^)
>>347933
be careful, direct insults can get you banned on /his/ m8
>>347914
>>347935
Actually, Herodotus is surprisingly great for modern audiences. I mean, a lot of ancient sources go like "so and so begat so and so, and then he died, and there was much rejoicing". Herodotus in contrast is pretty much a modern travelogue, where he tells you some details about a country, some interesting stories about its celebrities and rulers, and it's all intervowen together by the larger narration, trying to explain the Persian Wars.
Of course, it varies in quality as a historical source. The parts about the Scythians are still the pre-eminent source on them, while his descriptions of Egypt are full of made-up shit. While he's usually pretty critical of supernatural stuff, preferring a rational explanation, there's still some bits that are obviously mythologized, like the story of Cyrus the Great rising to the throne.
So yeah, read Herodotus.
>>347971
So does shitposting and breaking global rules.
>>336644
From what I've read, Chinese 'battles' with that much men were a series of smaller battles than one gigantic one.
Even in early-modern battlefields with vastly better logistics, having that number in one battle would have been exceedingly difficult if not impossible. Not to mention the organizational issues which would arise from having that many men in one field.
