>people still think the Soviets had an efficient military force
>when they literally resorted to human wave tactics
>>329051
>human wave tactics are inherently inefficient
Take 30 million men, give them some vint, and send them out to pillage.
Sounds effective to me.
>>329095
That's not how war works
>>329104
Well that's how USSR works. Plus some "encouragement"
>>329104
Stalin don't give a shit, son. If it's stupid, but it works, is it really stupid?
>>329134
You can either climb a mountain, or go around it
>>329169
>Climb mountain
>Men are exhausted
>Go around
>Takes time, resources wasted
>Throw men at the mountain
>Eventually you have a handy staircase of corpses, and plenty of weapons and uniforms for new recruits
Their methods were of course ethically wrong, but when you have the numbers to spare, and don't give a shit what it costs, then there's nothing you can do to stop them. And I'd say that's a pretty sound description for an army.
>>329051
>operation bagration
>operation spring awakening
>khalkin gol
>manchuria
>invasion of northern japanese islands
I bit a bait.
>>329095
>Germans invaded the Mother Russia
>"Ivan, what do we do? Most of our divisions has been overwhelmed and factories have been captured!"
>"Then we'll recruit and produce as many as we can since we're running out of time"
>"Great idea, tovarish!"
The Soviets fared well for their condition. Has any country done such a feat?
>>329051
>literally
It's people like you that caused them to accept that this now means 'figuratively.'
>>329219
Or they could just let the Germans exhaust themselves in Russian winter???
>>329231
That's what they did, nigga. Germans went frostbite and the Soviets reinforced their armies and got their shits together, albeit there were operations during heavy winter as both sides still trade shots with each other. (Moscow, Stalingrad, and Leningrad)
After 1941, the tides completely changed. The heaviest casualty the Soviets had were just in Kursk and Rhzev.
>>329095
Effective and "efficient" aren't synonymous.
>>329051
Soviets were not using wave tactics, they weren't using tactics at all because the fat mustache faggot in his infinite communistic wisdom decided to purge all his experienced officers before and DURING the first German invasions.
>>329051
This is shit b8 and u shpuld kys
Soviets won ww2
End of story
>>329051
>>people still think the Soviets had an efficient military force
they did, their operational planning was second to none
>>when they literally resorted to human wave tactics
on extremely rare occassions and in absolutely dire circumstances in the terrible early days of the war
>>329203
> Manchuria
Aw jiss, the secone largest militsry offensive of all time that was executed perfectly. And then nobody remembers.
>>329051
Confusing efficient and effective.
>>329051
that was in the early part of the war when they had to slow down the German advance once they got their war machine going then they could start using other strategies and tactics
Soviets won through their industry and armor
>>330331
>Soviets won through their industry and armor
Soviets won via logistics from free US trucks and jeeps that they didn't have to bother building
Detroit won the Eastern Front!
God bless General Motors!
>>329051
>human wave meme
When will it finally die?
>>329257
No.
>wheres ur evidence
Wheres yours? I know you're wrong.
>>329051
>when they literally resorted to human wave tactics
>still believing this myth
>>329051
People confusing Soviets and Japanese again I see.
That's just not true. Maybe in the earliest phases of the war, but by 1943 they were more mechanized than the Germans.
>>329229
Yes? How else do you think language works? And you're on a humanities board for fucks sake, have some perspective.
>>330127
It doesn't fit the post-war American narrative which is all Normandy and atomic bombs.
>>330579
>Soviets won via logistics from free US trucks and jeeps that they didn't have to bother building
>implying
>>331264
>looking at by dollars
Why don't you look at what we actually sent to the USSR as opposed what we sent to the Brits.
You'll find shoes to Russians without them are cheaper than tanks to Britain.
>muh post-war narrative
Stop being a little bitch and admit that the ALLIES and not a single ALLY won ww2.
t, Texas.
>team works together
>at end of project all individuals take credit
It's like elementary school.
The human wave tactic memetic regarding the Red Army during WW2 comes mainly form German memoirs. These soldiers saw and experienced massive local inferiority due to the way the Soviet doctrine worked. Essentially, concentrating as much force as possible on ea few small points. So yeah, it makes you feel like you're facing endless waves of Slavs when you have multiple battalions focused on your company's frontage (it doesn't help that by the time the USSR was on the offensive that the Germans were short of men and their logistic situation was rapidly deteriorating).
>>331363
>Slavs
Can we stop with this "Slavs" shit? There were Mongols, Uzbeks, Georgians, Jews, pretty much everything in the Soviet army. It was multikulti as fuck.
>>331363
Also from Russian sources, they literally didn't a shit.
I remember one story where they need to cross a river, rather than halt, build a proper bridge and then cross people are forced into the ice cold water even though they had no idea how to swim.
The excuse used to justify this? "Well, if this was an actual battle we would probably lose just as many so we might as well lose people and cross this river fast rather then delay our advance."
>>331373
>Can we stop with this "Slavs" shit? There were Mongols, Uzbeks, Georgians, Jews, pretty much everything in the Soviet army. It was multikulti as fuck.
Very true. I'm too used to 4chan, I guess.
underrated post >>331363
the soviet "maskirovka" was apparently extremely successful, with germans routinely having no idea that entire divisions were massing a few hundred yards behind the frontline to exploit a breakthrough
>>331373
>mfw all the white supremacists like Nazis weren't kidding when they said Eurasian Mongol hordes were storming Europe
>>331363
It wasn't really a Soviet idea. Pretty much every military of the time had thought of the bright idea of "Hit them at their weak point if at all possible".
What the Soviets really did well was collect frontline intelligence and maneuver so that they actually pulled this off, but the idea itself wasn't novel.
>>329051
Soviets were very efficient at producing serfs.
>>329051
Then 75% of German WWII casualties were lost to an awful military, making Germany even more pathetic.
By the 3rd quarter of WW2 the soviets had a well trained, well equipped effective military.
Human wave 1 rifle between 2 is over exaggerated and from the early war period.
Late war soviet tanks already fulfilled the main battle tank idea and they walked all over German tanks.
>>329051
I hate this meme. By the end of the war the Soviets had some very good leadership with a core of hardened soldiers due to fighting the Germans (who arguably had the most disciplined and fanatic army until around 1945.)
Anything I said about Soviet strategy and tactics probably wouldn't convince anyone over the internet, so just have a read of, and look at the ease in which the Soviets took Manchuria from the Japanese in '45. Sure they began the war in disarray, but by the mid-war the Soviets were fully prepared for 20th Century warfare and arguably had the greatest land army on the planet at the time.
>>331363
This. It was basically an excuse made by whiny German generals.
>bawww we lost cuz 100 gazillion of Slavs and Hitler
Reality: Germans and their allies were similar in manpower compared to USSR (which lost Belarus, and most importantly Ukraine).
Germans also had most of Europe at their disposal for pillaging and occasionally dragging people to slave labor.
Red Army started badly but by the end of 1943. it was best fighting force in the world, generally speaking.
It's funny to see them dissed here by Americans, whose troops faced raw German recruits, reserve units and under-equipped, underfed, and outnumbered Japanese.
>>333196
>what is disease and exposure
If all you look at is "german dead" you're getting only a third of the story.
>>329051
human waves only went as far as halting the advance on Moscow, simply because that was all the Soviet military had left after their heartland was captured in the first months of barbarossa.
From 1942 onward, when the factories were reconstructed east of the Urals, and fresh T-34's and artillery started to appear in battle again, the Soviets were able to fare well against the Germans man-to-man.
the Soviet's had adaptive methods to counter German strategies, such as extreme close quarters combat in cities to prevent the Germans from making bombing runs, or risk destroying their own forces in their attempts to bomb Red Army positions.
By the time 1943 came, the Soviet industrial base and equipment production was outperforming the Germans in all categories. With the battle of Kursk cementing Soviet strategies to counter the German Blitzkrieg and show that soviet armor could defeat German armor one-on-one.
The T-34 and KV-1 tanks were marvelous war machines in their own right. cutting through Panzer IV's like butter during the waning years of the war.
I hate to burst everyone's bubble but this >>331363 is basically what human wave tactics actually are and is how the Chinese found success against superior American firepower in Korea.
Also the success of the Manchurian campaign is way overrated, anybody could've rolled over that bunch of weary undersupplied japanese garrisons using outdated equipment and tactics on what was until then a quiet frontier, let alone hardened soviet veterans.
>>329203
>>330127
Plans never go accordingly.
Unless your enemy has no ability to hinder your plans, which is what happened in Manchuria. It's not really a grand showing of Soviet might beyond their basic ability to supply their troops.
As it was, they completely rolled over the Japanese except for several hardpoints they simple ignored and avoided.
The Japanese had almost no tanks or aircraft, the ones they did have were almost entirely relics and trainer vehicles. Even then, they had no oil to speak of.
The most effective anti tank weapons the Japanese had were suicide vests, and they were horribly outnumbered as well.
Manchuria is hardly impressive or unexpected, especially for a nation as powerful as the USSR in 1945 that had spent the last four years fighting a foe ten times as powerful and twenty times more efficient with the Germans. It's like a championship heavy weight boxer going to the High School light weight women's division and cleaning house.
>>330870
wtf, that's generally known
Goebbels stay dead pls.
>>333589
Germans weren't mechanized enough. Maintaining lengthy supply lines with effing horse and baggage trains is a lesson in insanity.
>>331312
You see anon, that would be reasonable.
We can't have that.
>>333815
The "Soviets won WW2 meme is just edgelord crap anyway. Losing a massive chunk of population, seeing thousands of kms of your land burnt and pillaged, and generally going through the worst one of the worst ordeals a country has ever experiences in exchange for Poland and associated shitholes is hardly a victory compared to what the United States gained out of WW2.
>>333748
Thing is, after most soldiers were drafted and transferred to Western Russia they were still able to reinforce the Far East so fast. That showed how good Soviet logistics were.
>>333845
That's pretty easy though, it's not hard to load troops onto empty trains leaving the front. Getting good and troops to the front all at once is the real challenge.
![snapshot_16.08_[2015.07.28_01.29.02].png](https://i.imgur.com/duP2v1I.jpg "snapshot_16.08_[2015.07.28_01.29.02].png")
>>333350
>Soviets were fully prepared for 20th Century warfare and arguably had the greatest land army on the planet at the time.
hahaha, i saged
How many of the eastern front horror stories are true? Were entire villages actually crucified? The whole hosing down POWs to make ice bridges?
>>333844
It's silly to believe that the American-led allies could have taken their ETO/North Africa without all those Germans tied up in Eurasia. Meanwhile, the same could be said for the Eurasian theater. Germany was crazy good.
>>333962
>Were entire villages actually crucified? The whole hosing down POWs to make ice bridges?
Holy shit, bump this question
>>334006
You missed the point. The Soviets made all the sacrifices while the Americans reaped all the rewards. Who gives a shit if you won the Ostfront if all you got in exchange is shitty eastern europe and a nation forever traumatized?
>>334133
Oh no, I agree, it's just I wanted to add more.
>>333962
The Eastern Front/Great Patriotic War was incredibly brutal. The Germans were waging an ideological war of extermination, both against the Communists/Bolsheviks and against the people of the Soviet Union, who were almost universally viewed as sub-human Slavs/Asiatics by the Nazi propaganda machine. Soviet POWs were treated with a callous disregard and Jewish prisoners and political officers were often summarily shot. Just look at Generalplan Ost and the Commissar order. The way Germany fought in the war in the East was completely different from the way they fought in the West and it's part of why they fought so hard in 44 and 45. They knew they'd raped, pillaged, and murdered their way through the USSR and that a vengeful Red Army was descending on Germany to repay them in kind.
In addition to the racial and political motivations for the war, there was the shitshow that was the German logistics. German soldiers basically had to loot the Russian villages the further they got into Russia as Barbarossa progressed as the overstretched supply lines couldn't handle the material that needed to reach the front. The Germans lacked winter clothing not because they hadn't planned for the winter, but because they simply could not get enough of the gear they needed to the front in addition to the vast amounts of ammunition, food, and spare parts that an army on the offensive needs in order to continue operating effectively. Even then, German soldiers were reduced to looting Russian and Ukranian peasants for food and warm clothing. Add on to this that partisan attacks were brutally retaliated against by selecting people at random from the nearest population center, whether the people who lived there were involved or not, and you get the Eastern Front.
>>333620
Evidently being a race of superior humans means not having to pack an extra wool sweater or two for those chilly Russian nights.
>>333683
>With the battle of Kursk cementing Soviet strategies to counter the German Blitzkrieg and show that soviet armor could defeat German armor one-on-one.
That was where defence in depth really came out right?
>>329051
Fact of the matter is that there were two soviet armies.
The one that couldn't retreat fast enough in the first part of the war (also lost to Finland and Poland)
And the one that got it's shit together and steamrolled the nazis all the way to Berlin
To identify these two armies as one is disingenuous
>>338044
>Lost to finland and Poland.
Then how did they occupy roughly 1/5 of Finland and half of Poland?
>>334288
> The Germans were waging an ideological war of extermination
Ceased reading there
>>329231
>Russian winter meme
Le epic
>>338048
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
make of this whatever fits your agenda bud, i dont care, bottom line the soviets got BTFO
>>331312
The point is that one country takes most of the credit you brick brained faggot.
Russia's not trying to take all the credit, only what is due when 80% of your male fighting population dies trying to stop a fascist takeover.
>>330094
And yet by the end he had the best officers and commanders in the conflict
>>338069
Where does it say they lost, like you claimed?
>>338069
>Hey, the Red Army of 1941 and 1944 are so different they might as well have been different entites!
>But the Red Army of 1939 and 1919 are exactly the same!
And the Soviets won the winter war. The border shifted in their favor, you idiot. Hell, it was pushed back further than the initial Soviet demands that prompted the war.
>>333683
>With the battle of Kursk cementing Soviet strategies to counter the German Blitzkrieg and show that soviet armor could defeat German armor one-on-one.
well strictly speaking the last point about tanks 1on1 was pretty much established in the very first days of the war with the germans meeting the t-34 and kv-1 and possessing nothing comparable
>>338092
(the Winter War, obviously, not the conflict from 20 years before that)
>>338095
>The border shifted in their favor, you idiot.
I don't exactly like this shitty KC / Reddit meme but this picture illustrates what happened quite well.
>>337417
yep
I still jizz looking at those defense works
>>338105
Except it misstates the political framework:
The Soviets weren't demanding the annexation of Finland or anything like that, they were demanding Viipuri and a corridor to it, a bunch of the little islands, and a dismantling of Finnish border fortifications.
They got all of that, at least until the Germans came knocking. Yeah, they took a lot of casualties securing it, but they took and held the turf.
If you're going to say "well, they lost a bunch of men so they didn't really win", then by that logic, the British won the American Revolution, the Americans won in Vietnam, and the Soviets won in Afghanistan.
>>338044
also the key factor that played into that transformation was that the nazis turned a war against communism into a war against soviet people
>>338052
The rest is actually pretty accurate.
>>338123
>Le Soviets only wanted little land meme
Finland was given to Soviets according to Molotov Ribbentrop treaty, as where Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, along side eastern Poland. Finland was ment to be annexed, the demands where ment to be rejected, so Soviets could establish a new loyal government. Finland had no obligation to bend to Soviet demands.
>but Soviets would have stopped if Finns relented
Soviets demanded Petsamo and other provinces to themselves during the time period between Winter and Continuation War.
>>338194
Romania was also part of the MR pact, and the Soviets stopped when they got Bessarabia.
>>338052
Hitler wanted to remove slav "untermenschen" and repopulate their territories with germanic people, it's literally in Mein Kampf
>>338208
I don't think he can read t.b.h.
>>338194
but if all that is true, then why would the soviets agree just to bigger concessions (but still not get annexation) at a time when they have broken through the mannerheim line, got to viipuri, and the finns capacity to wage war further was nearing zero?
>>329169
or you can fuck the mountain and hope for the best. Or blow it up.
Retarded at first when their military leadership was literally in shambles. Later they developed a pretty solid grasp of combined arms and were pretty competent.
>>331183
I'm not a prescriptivist, language is a tool that can change.
But it can still change for the worse, and become less clear and effective at communication.
OP's faggotry is a prime example.
Efficiency doesn't matter as much as effectiveness.
>>329051
>August Storm
>Bagration
>mememan wave
>>338223
Because Finns asked peace first and possibility of British/French intervening. French where ready to send troops to assist the Finns and in the British judged the invasion harshly. Had the Soviets annexed Finland, chances Allies declaring war on SU seem high.
>>338201
Soviets also occupied Hearz region despite it being not demanded. So it's pretty safe to assume the demands would have not ended there.
>>337417
>comrade, the nazi's break our weak defensive lines
>then make more strong defensive lines
GENIUS
