So what's the deal with Holodomor? Was it an ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians by the Russians?
>>317723
>Was it an ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians by the Russians?
Probably. It's impossible to prove whether it was on purpose or if the scale of it was intended, so Vatniks will be posting >PROOFS in this thread, but the measures set up by the government most likely caused the famine.
No. Essentially why it looks that way is because people were pumping out inflated reports of the amount of wheat, because they were scared Stalin would replace them with another supervisor if they didn't. Then famine hit, there wasn't enough to go around, but on paper there was, and rather than anyone, including Stalin, admitting his error (pretty bad when Stalin was tooting his horn about how great everything was going), they just said people are stealing or withholding the wheat and so on.
The famine was actually no something unprecedented in Russia, it just had a much larger population to go with it this time, and people were focusing more on it because we look at the communist system as accountable for it (either that, or Stalin's cruelty), but in actuality it wasn't, it's just that the communist system didn't help things as much as was predicted at all.
>>317723
>Russians
You mean Jews, and it coincided with the ethnic cleansing of the Armenians.
>>317760
Do you have any sort of evidence at all that it was a Jewish plot besides what Hitler says about Marxism, or are you just memeing?
>>317752
What's the source on that .jpg ?
>>317767
http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger,%20Natural%20Disaster%20and%20Human%20Actions.pdf
>>317723
Yes. Some may call it accidental, but remember that there is no such thing as attempted genocide, any attempt is still genocide in the eyes of the law.
>>317723
It wasn't specifically targeted at Ukrainians, it just so happened that a lot of the peasant rebellions occurred in Ukraine. Ukraine did bear the brunt of the famine, although other regions such as Kazakhstan were also very affected.
However, what is indisputable is that the famine was largely man-made in origin.
>>317752
Everything in your post is garbage. Fuck off back to /leftypol/.
>>317723
>ethnic cleansing
No, you don't understand that term. It either was a genocide or death by mismanagement.
Both sides have valid points. The Soviets didn't create the famine to murder Ukrainians, but once they realized that famine was a good way to get kulaks out of their lands and crush Ukrainian nationalism, they used it for such purposes.
PS: That pic in OP's post is from 1921/22 famine, not the 1932/33 one. There are few photos of that famine that I know of.
>>317764
This is a retarded question, it's not even hidden that Wall Street funded Bolshevism, or it is not hidden that a lot of the most prominent Bolsheviks came from the west, Trotsky for example was living in a plush New York apartment before he went to Russia to lead the Revolution.
>>317780
>Everything in your post is garbage. Fuck off back to /leftypol/.
Kek, I'm not a leftist at all, m8. I'm a conservative Christian.
And yes, the Ukraine bore the brunt of the famine, and that was intentional, but the famine itself wasn't, it just looks that way because we think Stalin had a lot more wheat than he did, and the reason we think that is because he lied about, or at least the people he got his info from did.
>>317752
I don't know what people think of these but i downloaded the Theaching Company series of lectures on Russian history and found it overall informative. In this series they make it clear that cyclical famines were pretty much a fact of life in Russia and that the deaths were largely a result of institutional failure in terms of famine relief, understandable given limited resources at the time. tragic but not an intentional plan. in reading a history of China a similar pattern of local famines which surrounding government did nothing to help leading to massive death and poverty emerges
>>317797
>Kek, I'm not a leftist at all, m8. I'm a conservative Christian.
All right, doesn't change the fact that you're a fucking moron. And quoting Tauger about the holodomor is akin to quoting Faurisson about the Holocaust.
>And yes, the Ukraine bore the brunt of the famine, and that was intentional, but the famine itself wasn't
Of course it was intentional. It was the direct consequence of forced requisitions to collectivize agriculture through kholkozes.
>>317795
>durr that question is retarded, im rite and its well known so i dont have to post any sources
>>317802
You fucking nigger, there was nothing local or small-scale about the famines in communist countries. THIS is why people claim they were the product of failed policy.
I mean look at the size of fucking China. During the Chinese famine, virtually ALL provinces were affected by famines. It wasn't local. It was nation-wide.
And by the way, the worst Russian famine during the 19th century killed a whopping 500 000 people. The three soviet famines of 1921, 1933 and 1946 each killed several million people...
>>317815
>All right, doesn't change the fact that you're a fucking moron. And quoting Tauger about the holodomor is akin to quoting Faurisson about the Holocaust.
No it isn't, and I didn't even quote his argument, just his iteration of his sources.
>Of course it was intentional.
As yourself, for a moment: do you think communism was so productive that it got over a catastrophic drought without a massive food shortage? Because if that were the case, it would be a damn good argument for communism--it might be a nasty mark against Stalin, but that's like using a sharpie on coal.
>Was it an ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians by the Russians?
Of course it was. Stalin personally summoned the drought, destroyed Ukrainian food stockpiles and shot those who tried to escape. Don't let some fucking tankies tell you otherwise.
>>317844
>No it isn't,
It really is.
>As yourself, for a moment: do you think communism was so productive that it got over a catastrophic drought without a massive food shortage?
What catastrophic drought?
>>317844
Also, please tell me how Stalin's policy of shooting at any villager who tried to leave his village to go scavenging for food "help productivity".
pieru homo nekru
>>317854
>It really is.
No, it isn't. Tauger controversial, but he's not considered a batshit insane conspiracy theorist.
>What catastrophic drought?
You can see all the sources for the surveys at the end of the article.
>>317864
Stalin employed a lot of people virtually as slave labor. There's a good chance they'd want to desert, and that chance increased tremendously in a famine.
>>317876
>Tauger controversial, but he's not considered a batshit insane conspiracy theorist.
There is literally no difference in the methodology of Tauger and in the methodology of holocaust deniers. They both rely on trying to "poke holes" in the narrative and use dubious data to support outrageous claims.
But anyways, I probably won't be able to convince you. Keep believing that the forced requisitions and the dekulakization starting in 1929 had absolutely nothing to do with the ensuing famine. Oh no, it was bad weather!
Just like the chinese famine was bad weather. And the north korean famine was bad weather. And the ethiopian famine was bad weather.
Funny how communist countries often have bad weather.
It was communism at its finest hour.
>>317723
Yes.
Firstly, Ukraine is a place where mass famine is something completely unprecedented. Three biggest ones were, surprise, 1921-22, 1932-33, 1946-47.
I can't fucking stress that enough, Ukraine is not a territory prone to famines and there was no poor harvest in 1932. It was same as usual.
Secondly, there was a large number of peasant uprisings specifically in the regions suffering the most later.
Thirdly, Ukrainian national core has always been in the farmers, and Russians knew that. If you look at a lot of early Soviet propaganda, Ukrainian villagers are always antagonized to the "modern and progressive" city.
Fourthly, 1933 was also the approximate date of mass murder of Ukrainian intellectual elite, so-called Executed Renaissance.
>>317886
But we're talking about villagers here. Peasants, whose grain stocks were seized by the NKVD, left with absolutely nothing. Forced to stay and starve in their village.
It's truly a horrendous time. There are stories of peasants smuggling their children into the cities, because even if they knew they were condemned to die of starvation in their village, they could perhaps save their children. Ukrainian cities were thus flooded with homeless children, and most of them unfortunately starved.
>>317893
approximate date of *START of mass murder
Shit, forgot the most important word.
>>317898
I don't agree ideologically with grain requisition, if that's what you're asking. It's bullshit, but that sort of thing is part of communism in general, and Lenin did it himself.
>>317920
>I don't agree ideologically with grain requisition, if that's what you're asking. It's bullshit, but that sort of thing is part of communism in general, and Lenin did it himself.
I never denied that Lenin was also a monster, and that bolshevism is a murderous ideology.
>>317723
A famine occurred and it was a disaster, but the charge of genocide is ahistorical and politically motivated. see >>317752
The idea of the Holodomor, a deliberate genocide of a specific ethnicity, is to serve as a creation point for distinct Ukrainian identity. It's an idea that was, and is, peddled by Ukrainian Nationalists and their sympathizers (the West and anti-Communists/anti-Russian ideologues). In fact, Stalin himself personally ordered that the Ukraine receive more aid than the many other regions hit by the famine: but that's what you would expect, with the Ukraine being a "bread basket" of the USSR. It makes 0% sense to kill off people in the Ukraine. Nationalists say it's because of resistance but there wasn't nearly enough to warrant wanting to kill them all, and with the rest of the USSR suffering how exactly does one organize a special starvation in this one region (which, again, was important for agricultural production)? Basically: no means, no motive, no opportunity.
>HOLOCAUST DENIAL! STALINIST!
Don't do this, anon.
>>317888
>There is literally no difference in the methodology of Tauger and in the methodology of holocaust deniers.
This is literally libel covering the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.
>>317932
>is to serve as a creation point for distinct Ukrainian identity
It formed in the middle-late of the 19th century, you mongoloid.
The problem isn't that there was a famine, the problem is that it was clearly artificial; it happened on lands where famines are almost impossible; and the exits from starving territories were cordoned off by NKVD.
Sure, one can argue that perhaps it is just your average Russian idiocy and mismanagement, but then why do Russians vehemently deny the very artificial nature of the famine?
It may not be genocide but it certainly is a crime against humanity
Ukraine was war torn and reliant on the rest of the soviets for help. When the help didn't arrive they started dying.
It reminds me of someone being financially reliant on a abusive partner who rarely helps
Someone should mention Soviet Union's grain exports GROWING during that period.
>>317993
>Someone should mention Soviet Union's grain exports GROWING during that period.
But they didn't, they stopped altogether.
>>318011
>Learn to believe propaganda and switch off your brain
ftfy
>>318011
>If it was artificial why did it affect areas beyond the Ukraine?
Because it was artificial all over the place. A better question would be why Russians are building monuments to Stalin instead of mourning but it's Russians.
>Why do you lie to yourself?
Present the evidence of any mass famines in Ukraine besides the three Soviet ones, let alone ones of the close magnitude.
I'm not a Holodomor denier, but
W O W
O
W
>>318072
What exactly are you trying to say by cherrypicking?
>>318038
>it was artificial all over the place
Stalin might be a literal cartoon villain with a mustache, but he's not Kefka.
>>317977
>exits from starving territories were cordoned off by NKVD
Uneducated here,sounds fascinating. Where can I read about it?
>>317993
>>318014
How can there be such a ridiculous disagreement of facts? This should be easily verifiable, no? Wikipedia says they exported 1.8 tons of grain during the famine, but this appears to be from a book called "Harvest of Sorrow" which I suspect deniers will not accept as factual. Does anyone know what Conquest's primary sources were here?
>>318089
>point out an article writer says something absolutely untenable purely to justify his own position
>cherry picking
Daily reminder that the UN itself has never called the Holodomor a genocide because there's no evidence for it. Ukraine didn't even recognize it as a genocide.
>>318109
https://youtu.be/M_dnRA5NFhs
>>318089
I actually don't have a dog in this race, I just saw this and had to post it.
>>318120
Neat. ty
I like this board, I hope it stays good.
>>318119
>Ukraine didn't even recognize it as a genocide
Why are you lying on the Internet? Law 376-V, taking force on the 1st of December, 2006.
http://zakon3.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/376-16
>>317977
>It formed in the middle-late of the 19th century, you mongoloid.
The notion of distinct Ukrainian-ness predates the Holodomor but the Holodomor is still the big rallying point for Ukrainian nationalism, it's the example where Russians tried to kill them. In fact a more than sizeable portion of Ukrainians don't and never did see themselves as anything but Russians (see the separatists in Crimea and Donbass). A similar situation exists among the West Slavs (Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbians), who also had a bitter war based on trying to make themselves into distinct national identities.
>>318138
Same. My fear is it will be another /pol/ or people won't enter a conversation non biased
This is almost a /pol/ thread, but I recommend Googling "Behind Communism Duke Youtube".
>>318109
Russia export wheat, but exports dropped drastically, they made up less than 1% of the harvest.
https://youtu.be/1FDgiVgW4iI
https://youtu.be/M_dnRA5NFhs
https://youtu.be/18GiwgE5_yE
Good videos on the subject
>>318147
A law that wasn't passed by a large majority, and which is part of the wider, long discussion in the Ukraine about the issue that is divisive. That it took to 2006 to make this "recognized" corroborates this, including Yanukovich's statements on the matter in 2010.
>>318173
>This is almost a /pol/ thread
>but I recommend Googling "Behind Communism Duke Youtube".
![Carte-Ethnographique-de-LEurope_1918_4500x3665[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/FBOBngl.jpg "Carte-Ethnographique-de-LEurope_1918_4500x3665[1].jpg")
>>318166
>In fact a more than sizeable portion of Ukrainians don't and never did see themselves as anything but Russians
That's because they are Russians ethnically, USSR was constantly mixing local population up. However, even in the 2001 census all Ukrainian regions except for Crimea had Ukrainian majority.
>never did
In all Russian regions which later on formed Ukrainian People's Republic Ukrainian language and Ukrainians were a majority. Picture related. If anything, Ukrainian territories dwindled since then.
Later on Holodomor itself and Soviet propaganda and brainwashing created a Frankenstein's monster of "Soviet identity" but that has nothing to do with natural processes in Ukraine.
>>318189
No True Scotsman now, eh?
2nd gen diaspora here. Lost 2 grand aunts and a grand uncle during Holodomor. Ask anything
>>318218
I suggest you look up what a no true scotsman fallacy is, because that's not it.
>>318218
>a highly politicized decision by a government who fist-fight instead of debate = proof of historical fact.
An an observer of this thread. I'm not impressed so far with any of the argumentation opposing the Tauger anon.
>>318237
>during Holodomor
You mean the "1933 accidental grain shortage", you filthy kulak
>>318242
>I'm not impressed so far with any of the argumentation opposing the Tauger anon.
Whole books have been written about why his arguments are stupid.
He bases his arguments off official soviet statistics concerning only a few kholkoze.
If you weren't a disingenuous marxist you could just google it and would find many results.
![1ac88d7-gm1-original[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/UbW32gk.jpg "1ac88d7-gm1-original[1].jpg")
>>318240
>Ukraine hasn't recognized it
>Yes it did, here's the law, number, date and text
>But it hasn't recognized it as I want it!
Not only that, it's not a polarizing issue anymore. According to latest numbers, 80% of Ukrainians deem it as genocide.
>Pictured: Do you agree that Holodomor of 1932-1933 was a genocide of Ukrainian peoples?
>>318246
I'm referring to the time period dipshit. The time period could be referred to as Holodomor
>>318266
I'd love to see how many Russians in the east think it was a genocide
>>318279
What do Russians have to do with Ukrainian opinion on Ukraine?
>>317828
>the worst Russian famine during the 19th century killed a whopping 500 000 people. The three soviet famines of 1921, 1933 and 1946 each killed several million people...
It might be prudent to add the casualties of the rest of Eastern Europe to that Russian famine, considering the USSR governed much more than Imperial Russia.
>>318294
>considering the USSR governed much more than Imperial Russia
>>318289
Presumably because they suffered just the same but don't have a nationalistic stake in calling it intentional?
>>318303
They were used to constant failure
>>318300
He makes a good point, what are you thinking?
>>318309
What?
>>318303
They've got their own country to praise Stalin in. Democracy is a majority rule, whether people like it or not.
>>318312
Imperial Russia was bigger than the USSR you fucking moron.
>>318289
Because there are a significant number of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. I'd like to know if they view it as intentional or not
>/pol/acks use poorly sourced jpegs to prove that the holocaust never happened
>/leftypol/acks use poorly sourced jpegs to prove that the holodomor never happened
poetry
>>318319
How is it poorly sourced? It uses actual agricultural data.
>>318318
Again, what do Russians have to do with Ukrainian opinion of Ukraine? They may not view it as intentional (or rather not know anything on the subject) but that's unfortunate for them since there's an absolute majority who thinks otherwise.
Plus they've got a huge country of their own. Hell, they've got two brand new republics with no evil nationalists now.
Otherwise, 64% of people in the East view it as genocide, as pictured.
>>318314
The losses of ww1, the revolution, the purges, the financial issues. Suffering was a part of life
>>318317
Land-wise? Yes. Population-wise? Nah.
>>318337
Because they've been a thorn in ukraine's side since the USSR fell and Russia used it as a pretext to invade
Christ
Is it that hard to understand
>>318353
Well now Russia has invaded already, what the fuck is Ukraine supposed to do now?
Russian (or rather "Soviet") minority's opinion was listened to in order not to provoke Russia; what's the point of listening to them when Russia attacked nonetheless?
>>318360
Russia attacked on a *pretext* of protecting minorities. It was because the prorussian government in kyiv was overthrown.
>>318371
Yes, so? They could've found any other pretext, meaning actually listening to what those people wanted was ultimately useless. Is there a point of "not provoking" Russia when it's already waging war against the country?
>>318377
Not worsening the situation
>>318383
It can't be worsened any more by now. No point in listening to Russians at all.
What the fuck else can they do?
Use nukes? That's retarded even for Russia.
Launch a full scale frontal invasion? They certainly had plans in 2014 but even August losses were clearly too big for them. Russians aren't immortal.
Use air force? Look up their losses against fucking Georgia and keep in mind that Ukraine has one of the densest AA systems in the world.
Stop trading? They did that already.
Stop selling gas? Ukraine doesn't buy gas from Russia anymore.
Try to set country into infighting? They're trying to do that now, doesn't work much.
The thread is ruined oh well
>>318410
Asking russian views on the holodomor isn't listening to their every whim you retard. Russia could potentially push to dnipetprovosk, especially after kolomoisky got axed as governor.
>>318424
>Russia could potentially push to dnipetprovosk, especially after kolomoisky got axed as governor
Yeah, and any of us could potentially have an aneurysm now, chances are about the same.
They tried a full-scale invasion in August of 2014, Ukrainian army stopped them with huge losses and literally zero capable troops on directions from Kharkiv to Kyiv and from Zaporizhzhia to Odesa. This time it has large reserves, way better equipment and a vast network of fortified positions along the whole front line.
Im a soviet Sovietboo myself but damn
>>318441
I'm saying there's a threat of it happening and that's all russia needs to hold over Ukraine's head. Regardless, like I said, asking the Russians their view of the holodomor isn't fucking bending over backwards for them
>>318476
And I'm saying the threat of it happening is so improbable it doesn't matter.
Russian army isn't undefeatable, Russian soldiers die like any other. Even their favorite human wave tactics won't work now.
>>318491
So what do you propose is done about the millions of Russians legally living in east Ukraine?
>>318501
Nothing. They're amoebic, brainless and respect any powerful authority over them. You seriously overestimate the organizational capability of your average homo sovieticus without any foreign influence.
They'll get assimilated once Russia loses its influence over Ukraine.
>>318535
>once
>>318577
>literally control a part of their territory
>essentially lost all leverage
>>318588
Crimea is a double-edged sword as we can see with electricity right now. Russians can't support it economically.
Eastern part is indeed a problem, though, and Ukraine winning the war will be the time Russia actually loses its influence completely. Time is favoring Ukraine now and nobody's rushing.
>>318602
Unless putin decides to be a good person suddenly Donetsk and luhansk will stay like Georgia as permanently occupied territories for the foreseeable future.
>>318613
It doesn't matter. Ukraine has already managed to restructure the economy to cope with losses (except for coal used for fuel, as of now) so it's got all the time in the world.
Russia, however, does not, since sanctions do hurt it considerably. Should it finally start fulfilling the Minsk agreements, it would lose automatically because they force all foreign troops to leave the territory. Should it play dumb as usual, again, nobody's in a rush.
>>318641
>restructure it's economy and cope with losses
Didn't their economy contract by like 5.5%? There's still widespread corruption and a general distaste with how the government is being run. Yatsenyuk has like a 2% approval rating
>>318682
I was talking specifically about Eastern territories and losses related to them. Main and the most important one was foreign currency income, something like 30% of the total one they brought in.
As far as everything else goes, the situation may be shitty but West is giving Ukraine monies and Russia loses monies, that's the gist of it.
>>317795
What does that have to do with jews causing holomodor?
I told you so, you fucking fools.
