>>314759
Pompey'd probably pull off a similar stunt, but due to lack of a legacy, have the Republic come back for a little while longer before some other opportunist rose up. Antony maybes.

>Emperors are now called Antonions

>>314759
The republic probably would have lasted a few more decades.

It was inevitably on a course towards despotism. Sulla proved that more than anyone.

>>314771
Without Caesar I have my doubts Antony would even be remembered these days,

>>314771

Pompey pretty much did pull off a similar stunt. He was just shyer about it. He was the effective ruler of Rome for like twenty years and Caesar would never have even been able to attain to such a position if he had not had warlords like Marius, Sulla and Pompey to prepare the war for him. The Roman oligarchy of that day was doomed to collapse into monarchy because of the way in which its system of patronage encouraged the rich and powerful to develop a kind of state-within-the-state centered on themselves and their personally controlled wealth, glory, and military forces.

>>315943

This might be true since Antony wasn't particularly skilled as a general and was a fucking retard who made Pompey look like an effective politician, but on the other hand it's hard to think who would have made the effort to succeed Pompey if Caesar had not lived to adulthood. It's entirely possible that Rome would have just jumped right into hereditary monarchy anyway with Gnaeus the Younger or Sextus. Probably with another civil war thrown in for good measure.

>>314759

Julius Caesar would of died

>>314771
I hate how that HBO show was made and now everyone thinks that Antony was ever really relevant

>>316029
>Antony wasn't particularly skilled as a general
stop this meme, he was a great general, just not as good as the giants during his time (Caesar, Pompey, Agrippa)

>>316141
>would of

>>316273

Language is evolving. Get with the times gramps

>>314759
Caesar was one of several skilled Marian generals, once Sulla was gone, the optimates of the senate would have to face another general who had support of the plebs and his army.

>>316300
>implying there were any as skilled as Caesar
The only reason Caesar even defeated Pompey was luck, Pompey has every advantage possible at Pharsalus

I'm pretty sure he did decide to kill Caesar but Caesar just escaped in time. Isn't there an account of the early life of Caesar which talks about him being on the run from various people trying to kill him?

>>316675
>The only reason Caesar even defeated Pompey was luck
I always though it was because Caesar had a small army of veterans, against a large army of soft conscripts.

>>316688
Nah, some of Caesar relatives convinced Sula to spare him, he later wrote that he regretted sparing him

>>316691
All of Caesars men were veterans from Gaul and the civil war (although some legions were down to like 1000 men) and were definitely better than Pompeys men, but Pompeys weren't raw recruits, just less experience

>>316688
Sulla was convinced to spare Caesar but he warned romans that in Caesar he saw 3 Marius and that Caesar would doom Rome to the populists.

>>316197

>and now everyone thinks that Antony was ever really relevant

He was. I don't agree with the guy that he'd have come to his position without Julius, but ignoring his place in the second triumvirate is silly. He was Octavian's major obstacle and was basically used as a stepping stone for creating the principate.
Without Antony I doubt Octavian would have been able to acquire so much power as quickly as he did.
>a significant part of the senate deserts to Antony
>Octavian has a senate filled just with his supporters
>has a convenient bad guy to rally people against, one that's allegedly in the coils of an egyptian harlot and trying to sell Rome out to the east
>becomes popular and wealthy from his victories

>>316778
>wealthy
Cannot stress this enough. The only way Ovtavian could pay for the upkeep and discharge of hundredsof thousands of men was from taking the massive Egyptian treasury after defeating Antony.

>>316300
Caesar was a 19 year old kid with only a year or two of military experience under his belt when Sulla ascended to heaven.

>>316688
>>316695
Caesar was on the run for a time. The order was given but later rescinded after lobbying.

>>316208

Mark Antony is massively overrated as a military leader. His service as a staff officer in Gaul was competent at best. His service during the civil war is only notable because he remained loyal to Caesar during his Greek campaign, even though it might have been easier for him not to: his actual generalship isn't spectacular at all. He fucked the dog at Mutina, beat some incompetent chumps at Philippi, and got absolutely buttfucked in the Parthian campaign, losing a huge amount of his army and resources in pursuit of an unattainable prestige goal. Then he lost the war with Imperator Caesar before he could even fight a land battle.

I'm not saying that Antony wasn't a good soldier or a good officer, because everything we know about him indicates that he served Gaius Caesar with distinction, but he fell from grace with Caesar due to being a gigantic fucking retard on a political level (the Dolabella affair) and showed a decreasing level of strategic intelligence as his career went on.

>>317239
His only surviving publication is a pamphlet called "On My Drinking," where he brags about his prowess with drink. So yeah, he was fond of alcohol.

>>316675

This isn't true at all, Pharsalus was won and lost on motivation. Caesar was making a last stand and deliberately presented the battle to his soldiers as a win-or-die situation. Pompey did not want to give battle and had to be pushed to do so by the senators. One of these generals produced a response from his army which allowed them to punch well above their weight. The other one despaired the moment things went wrong and ran away. Pompey's heart wasn't in the war the same way Caesar's was and it showed through in the performances of their respective military forces.

>>317253

The Latin title is even better, it's in the third person. It's certainly true that Antony was consistently accused of being drunken and dissolute, and it isn't at all unlikely that he was indeed a drinker to excess, but I think we should be a bit skeptical about whether that directly caused his problems as a general -- a lot of the ancient claims that his drunkenness made him unfit for this or that come from people who had every political reason to demonize him in contrast to Caesar Divi Filius. Sulla was a boozer too, after all -- he was quite famous for knowing how to live it up. Maybe Antony just wasn't very good at directing strategy. We'll never know I guess.

>>317239
Bullshit, hes not talked about ever so I'd say hes underrated. During the Battle of Alesia he and Trebonius were the only things that saved the siege from being a disaster when the Gallic reinforcements arrived. At the beginning of the civil war he showed decent skill with a navy when he tricked Lucius Scribonius Libo and wiped out a lot of Pompeys fleet. Caesar trusted Antonys skill enough to place him in second in command at Pharsalus, and Caesar was no idiot. Battle of Forum Gallorum, with 2 legions he takes on 8 commanded by Pansa and managed to wipe out almost 5 legions. Mutina was a Pyrrhic victory at beast, the goal was to wipe out Antony and with more than double the troops (45,000 vs 20,000) they couldn't do that, and even had more losses than Antony. Its true at Philippi Brutus and Cassius weren't very good, but he did save the day, Octavian fucked up hard and he was the one who saved him. True he fucked up at Parthia, but he did manage to annex Armenia, so thats something.
>Then he lost the war with Imperator Caesar before he could even fight a land battle.
Battle of Alexandria, he defeated Octavian despite being outnumbered almost 3:1, this is after Actium

>>316197
But he was so cool in that show