Do you guys believe in god? If yes, why? If no, why not?
When did you come out of the atheist closet?
>>298967
I don't and I realized it when I was freshman in college filling out the religious part of my facebook profile. I honestly hadn't thought about it for years up until that point.
No, I don't believe there is a god and I came out as an atheist about 9 years ago
>Do you guys believe in god?
No
>why not?
I was never raised with religion. And when I studied it in school I just couldn't buy it. Most of my theology professors were atheists as well, and the one Catholic admitted it's most likely nonsense but he needs something to hang on to so he took the existentialist "leap of faith".
Felt a bit like watching a kid take santa seriously. No offense to believers.
>>298967
>Do you guys believe in god?
I DO BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH IN GOD.
>If yes, why?
BECAUSE I AM BIOGENETICALLY PREDISPOSED, AND BECAUSE I HAVE INTELLECTUALLY INFERRED IT.
>When did you come out of the atheist closet?
I WAS NEVER IN IT.
I am atheist, but I enjoy wrecking neo atheists in arguments. I think its called apatheism.
I would defend atheism but its nothing but fedoras. The commercialism from christian holidays alone wipes its ass with atheist influence. Not beleiving in god doesnt take you into the space age any faster.
I love Bill nye as a person though.
>>298967
Nope don't believe in any Gods, I wasn't raised religious so I didn't turn out religious. I learned what an atheist was when I was around 11.
lol fuck no I don't believe is some magical sky daddy who somehow magically manipulates the world and predetermines people's destiny's
you have to be a special kind of stupid to believe there is a god
>>298979
I know that feel.
I pretend to be Christian and Jewish just to argue with ignorant atheists and test their knowledge.
>>298979
Apatheism is not caring if any Gods exist or not, if you were an Apatheist you wouldn't even bother wrecking arguments from any side.
No, but I think there's a big difference between being fully atheistic and being an atheist that still holds the dogma and ideology of their religion to a certain extent that it shapes the way they perceive the world. I think most of the "new atheists" fall into the latter, and I think to properly be the former you need to have an understanding of the nuances of the religion or spirituality you were born with. It's just as important for an atheist leaving a religion to understand that religion as it is for the theist to understand it for the purpose of practicing it.
Valisystem is real
>>298983
You have to be a special kind of faggoty cunt to think this way and be satisfied with thinking there's no reason to believe in gods besides stupidity
t. atheist
I'm an atheist, but I think that religion is an inextricable part of human society.
Fundamentalist religion is the problem. Moderate religion is the cure.
>>299026
Fuck off. Enough false flagging.
This isn't /pol/.
>>299026
Well, Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics, made his discoveries while experimenting with pea plants in the garden of his monastery.
Charles Darwin was going to be an ordained priest when he decided to take that whole trip to the Galapagos.
Today, the Pope has a staff of scientific advisers, among the best on the planet, to help him understand god's beautiful universe and stay up to date on the latest and greatest in humanity's knowledge. There are plans in place to baptize aliens if we ever find them (but only if they want to be.)
The fact that you concentrate on a science/religion dispute when this was only really an issue in the 20th century and later shows how tiny your perspective is, and how ill equipped you are to understand the human race as a whole.
Adding religion to this board was a mistake.
>>299076
>religion... was a mistake
>>299076
This.
/his/ would have been better if it was just history. The humanities bit turns this board into a pseudo containment board.
>>299026
Stop, you're making the rest of us moderate atheists look bad, you antithiest jackass. You fucktards are almost as bad as fundies.
>>299026
Religion is the predecessor to science, it was the 1st time humanity tried to explain the world around them and is a symbol of our intelligence and self-awareness.
>>299045
To be fair, religious evangelicalism usually flies right in the face of scientific knowledge.
>>298967
No.
I do like the idea of there being a creator and that you're following his words but honestly I don't see the point in this day and age.
>>299026
>>299026
>is a fedora
>believes in teleological concepts such as progress and human advancement
I'm agnostic and lean towards atheism. If there is some sort of God or higher power, its probably not anthropomorphic.
That being said, I don't mind religious folk, so long as they shut the fuck up about it.
Yes with all my heart. I was an atheist before i converted to Orthodox Christianty. I began to read theological texts and then vistited my local parish and the rest is history.
>>299129
do you believe in a God yes or no
if you answered no you're an atheist
nope
I tried to as a child, and then during my late teens when I was very depressed
never saw a scrap of evidence, and surmised that life is fucking awful and even if there is a god, he doesn't deserve to be believed in, let alone venerated
I believe death is the end of consciousness, and I welcome the peace
>>299121
You are both responding to bait and not making any sense. What the fuck are you trying to say?
>>298967
>Do you guys believe in god?
No.
>If no, why not?
I have never believed in it. I wasn't raised with religion, and even though I have always been interested in mythology I never even once considered it a possibility that any of the fantastical elements in the stories it were real.
I'm generally an apatheist. It would be pretty cool if a benevolent god existed though.
Do I believe in god?
No
Why?
Because my IQ isn't a single digit and im not 7 years old.
Why do we have daily threads about this?
>>299889
Insecure Christfags or fedoras masquerading as them for the epic trollz.
Strawpoll in another thread showed like 60% of the board was atheist yet religion is one of the biggest sources of shitposting on the board.
>>298967
It seems a little silly to believe in a god.
>>298967
We already had this threaaaaaaaaaad
>>298967
Kind of.
I was raised in a very anticlerical environment, so I couldn't help but be an edgy teenager and try to become religious on purpose.
Today I don't really believe in god but it certainly is an entertaining idea.
I would say it is a very interesting thought experiment that doesn't need to be entirely accepted or dismissed.
>>298967
I don't know enough about the nature of what-is to make a comment.
>>299165
Words have more than one definition.
>>298967
I believe in God desu (pls no bully).
I find the arguments for God's existence more appealing than the arguments against his existence.
>>298967
No I don't but I do see religion as a vital function of a society and that the people who can't believe probably are a bit mentally damaged (myself included)
No, because the concept isn't defined consistently and isn't testable
Even as a little kid I don't think I ever seriously considered the idea of there being a god, at least not past when I stopped believing in the tooth fairy, etc.
p.s. NOBODY on 4chan seriously believed in God. If they did they wouldn't be here. This is a fact. 100% of people saying they do are trolling.
Im a christian but i think God is a troll and helps bad people instead of the righteous. Hes a borderline meanie. Sometimes hes okay.
yes, because of no reason, faith is grounded in itself
>>301091
it is funny how you are so lacking in social skills in real life yet on the internet you somehow gain the ability to have an insight on the inner life of hundreds of individuals
>>301042
What is the single most appealing argument for the existence of god for you?
>>301235
Probably the ontological argument.
The argument from desire is good too. I like how simple it is.
>>299001
Hi Stirner
The idea of God is just the human mind trying to make sense of the world by applying their humanity to it. It's why people assume there has to be a "designer"; because humans are designers. It's why people assume there must be a "reason" or "purpose" for everything that happens. Because humans use reason. It's why people for thousands of years assumed humanlike superbeings were responsible for everything they didn't understand (including, by the way, the cause of the universe's existence).
The reason we do these things is because we think we're special, or that the universe is somehow "for" us or "favors" us. Let's face it. This "God" is incredibly humanlike. He's a creator, a designer, he has intelligence, he has intentions, he has convictions, he has a gender, etc. We only assume that a being like that is out there because it's human nature. But the idea of there being a humanlike being out there is entirely laughable. About as likely as finding another race of humans lightyears away. Even if some deity existed, why in all of astronomically low chances would it be humanlike?
>>301075
ignostic?
Is intelligence more fundamental to existence than the universe itself? Wouldn't all theists have to believe so?
>>301375
Who cares what it's called what I am.
I don't believe in any god whatsoever. Also, most of these 'proofs' I see flying around on 4chan stink. Whenever some evangelizer tells me I should believe X because 'they can logically prove it', I die a little inside.
It's as if no one has ever read Hume or knows what a black swan is
>>301355
Damn anon, that is a impressive argument.
>>301735
Whoa, thanks. I've been thinking about this a lot, and I thought I was going somewhere with this train of thought.
>Do you believe in God?
No.
>If not, why not? When did you come out of the atheist closet?
Read some Tolstoy's Gospel in Brief, found his ideas of personal revelation particularly compelling. So I gave it a go, to see if I could have my own. I did, I was an agnostic before and an atheist after.
Still agnostic about whether there *was* a God or if there *could be* a God, but there is no God *now*. The absence is too profound to deny.
>>298967
>Do you guys believe in god? If yes, why? If no, why not?
Nope, there is no evidence for a god. And evidence has proved itself to me to be the absolutely most reliable way to establish if something exists (with certain methods to augment that ability, but still relying on evidence)
>When did you come out of the atheist closet?
16, parents were not happy. We get along fine these days, on a bus right now to visit them for Thanksgiving.
>When did you come out of the atheist closet?
Is this really a thing in America?
>>298967
I was raised a baptist, became an atheist, and pretend to be Catholic so I can banter heretics
>>302080
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_Campaign
>>301432
>Who cares what it's called what I am.
The people you are trying to communicate your beliefs to.
>>298967
>do you believe in god?
i don't believe in the christian god
>why not?
i was raised as an episcopalian, but when i was 19, i attempted to read the bible. i made it to deuteronomy and then denounced christianity.
ever since, i've found it kind of silly to attempt to rationalize the monotheistic religions
>atheist closet
i was only an atheist for a short period after denouncing christianity before realizing it was just as silly. not being religious doesn't constitute being an atheist for me
>>298990
>telling other people what they believe
spoken like an atheist
It's 2015 people, are there really countries in western world that have "atheist closest"? Or is this some shitty forced meme here.
>>299085
yeah, but history and religion are so intertwined, it's difficult to have a discussion of one without involving the other in some way
No, there's just nothing that can make me believe no matter how hard i try. I was raised Catholic, and just told my parents one day when I was like 14/15. They never brought it up again.
>>302207
>>302207
Try growing up in an evangelical Christian household in the South.
>>302207
It is VERY FUCKING REAL. I was raised by my Catholic parents and got kicked out of the fucking house when I came out. Luckily my older brother had a place I could stay at while I finished up high school
>>302213
It's easy to tell when a thread is about the impact of religion on history and "Why are atheist so wrong? Praise Allah!". Many threads don't even pretend to be about history.
Do we want this to become a containment board?
>>302246
What country do you live in?
>>301745
i once read a paper that discussed several studies that generally concluded that humans assimilate knowledge in terms of things they already know. this idea generalized is: we know ourselves, so everything we perceive will be tainted slightly in favor of being similar to us
i think this lends itself to a line in that life of pi movie where his mother says: "religion teaches us about ourselves." because religion has little to no actual physical correlation, the more we investigate religion, we are effectively looking into a metaphysical mirror.
>>302262
Finland, not the most religious, but not the least either.
>>302246
there's a lot of power and money in using religion to fear monger and pretend to be moral so, logically, it is the guise of the unethical and insecure to bully others
nothing makes the religious more insecure as people who believe differently
Yes, becauase of miracles. Any other evidence of Godvis faulty.
>>302297
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method
>>302297
obvious b8 is obvious
>>302207
Depends on where you live.
But even here in California, though there isn't a "closet" exactly saying "I'm an atheist" can be a good way to clear a room.
>>302348
probably because these days atheists are as opinionated and ignorant as the strongly religious
this debate is a sign of the dissolution of the spiritual framework of our society.
>>302348
>But even here in California, though there isn't a "closet" exactly saying "I'm an atheist" can be a good way to clear a room.
I have never encountered this in California. Surely it depends on the room.
>>302845
i do believe that's the hardest anyone has ever tried to sound smart
>>298977
>santa posting
ITS HERE
>>302862
Your beliefs are strange and antiquated
>>302883
lol
>>302862
>he didn't read Evola
What do you people think of more modern religions that acknowledge their fallibility and absurdity, such as Satanism or Discordians?
>>302912
hey, at least they're honest
>>302912
deluded
>>302957
In what sense? They practice religion because the ritual and myth make them happy. They aren't ascribing to a metaphysical worship.
>>302854
Well of course it depends on the room, if you're with a clique of people who are skeptical of religion then obviously it won't have that effect. But beyond that specific group, people tend to be fairly uncomfortable with the idea.
Being atheist isn't like being a pariah, but it's easy to fall into an echo chamber because many people who aren't similar-minded will just up and leave at the mention of atheism.
>>298967
Yes. I have faith.
>>302912
Silly, because religion is to fill the void of what does not actually exist, not a reflection of what does exist.
No I don't believe in god. I became an atheist in my early 20s.
There simply is not a shred of evidence god exists.
>>298967
>Do you guys believe in God?
Yes.
>Why?
Was raised non-religious, and was an atheist for much of my teenage years. Biggest factor was the extrordinary philosophical and historical illiteracy of the online atheist community and the movement's prominent intellectuals - Dennett and Pigliucci excepted.
That's not to say there aren't plenty of people on the theist side who are better - there aren't - but once i'd realized both sides had things to offer and read, then it i just had to investigate both sides...and that journey led me to a personal God.
>>303262
That's a bit like asking why I don't believe in an invisible alien winged superfish flying up and down the street just because I have no evidence it does not exist.
>>299001
This is a tremendous point. A lot of the history of the New Atheists - le Xtian Dark Ages, muh library of Alexandria, Hypatia as a atheo-feminist martyr - is basically the culmination of Anglo-Saxon Reformation propaganda.
Whiggish as fuck.
>>303276
The New Atheists are a half dozen or so scholars who wrote books and went on speaking tours in the 2000s. I'm not sure any of them even wrote anything much about history or claimed to be historians.
Claiming there is a "New Atheist" version of the Middle Ages etc is pretty ludicrous.
>>303271
no its not, you replied with a formulaic response without even thinking about the question
i mean, to be an atheist is to believe that no gods exist, not simply not believing a god exists
there is no evidence either in support of or against god(s), so why make the claim, without evidence, that god does not exist if you are going to use a lack of evidence to not believe he exists?
>>302184
>when i was 19, i attempted to read the bible. i made it to deuteronomy and then denounced christianity.
Dude you didn't even make it to the New Testament, aka the actual Christian parts
>>303305
>the actual christian parts
>the old testament isn't really christian
>christians don't believe the first testament, duh
>>303291
Actually this is just the same tiresome argument about agnosticism vs atheism that every half-baked theist comes out with.
Fine define atheist narrowly if I care but that would make pretty much every atheist alive including Dawkins an agnostic and not an atheist.
Neither word should even exist. I'm just not superstitious.
>>303320
you think theists invented the distinction between agnosticism and athiesm just to have an argument against atheists?
that's a new level of ignorance for this thread
>>303331
I think Huxley invented the term agnosticism just because he wanted to get on with studying the natural world without having to deal with stupid shit theists come out with by 'disproving' them.
>>303310
In basic Christian theology, the ministry of Jesus Christ absolved, fulfilled, or superseded all aspects of the Mosaic Covenant (law), which is to say that everything in the "Old Covenant" up to Jesus no longer applies to Christians.
This was confirmed during the Apostolic conference of 50 A.D.
This is what makes Christians Christians instead of Jews has been well known and generally accepted for nearly 2,000 years.
Also I was more talking about how he didn't even get to Jesus yet, Deuteronomy is still part of the fucking Torah.
>>303363
because, really, its either you believe god(s) exist, or you believe no god(s) exist, and you have to pick one forever
>>303288
>not realizing that Whig history is necessary for New Atheism's basic premise to function.
>>303390
"he" is me
so why, then, do they include the old testament in modern printings of the bible? and is the god of the old testament a different god from the new testament? is it so that they are completely unrelated?
>>303404
>not realising you are talking complete shit
>>303395
I just casually relegate belief in gods to the same level as belief in luck from four leaf clovers or astrology.
Does there really even need to be a word for people that think the evidence that the position of the stars effects your chances of winning the lottery is lacking? No.
There doesn't really need to be a word for people who see no evidence in magical beings that created mankind either.
after a decade of practicing armchair occultism I identify as agnostic theist
we can't know nuffin, but there's definitely something incomprehensibly weird about spirituality and I am not buying le neurons, archetypes and whatever else naturalist, reductionist crap
>>298967
I don't, but sometimes wish I did.
Not for the scripture or eschatological maymays but because I feel a strong pull towards some sort of moral absolutism...although I haven't yet come across a philosophy that reconciles that with my cynical materialism.
I'd wish I could take the easy road out and declare myself a skeptic, that would still not satisfy my longing for the essence of what is good.
>inb4 euthyphro's dialogue
Yeah I know. Still though.
>>303427
>implying there's reason to talk at all
if we are going to invent and use words like "republican," "american," "black," "yesterday," then there really isn't any reasoning to your idea at all
>there's just no reason to have a word because i believe differently than the people the word describes, life would be better if we were all just the same
you ought to think before you type
>>298967
I'm agnostic and if that if there is a god out there it is distant and cold. I'm not going to deny that religion has been a huge part of human history for both good and ill.
>>303466
If you are that worried then just call me non-superstitious lad.
>>303481
>call me non-superstitious
but that would be using a word to describe what you believe...
>mfw all these atheist who think so highly of themselves and their laughable 'reasons' not to believe
this is worse than /r/atheism
well, this whole board in general degenerated into another shitposting containment very quickly, sadly
>>302234
>I was raised by my Catholic parents and got kicked out of the fucking house when I came out
how christian of them
>>302912
postmodern as fuck tbqh
>>303487
Do you really think these desperate semantics are going to make your god real?
>>303492
Someone needs a reason not to believe? What's your reason for rejecting Shiva?
As for quality of the thread and board your post just considerably lowered it.
>>302912
What's the point of a religion if it doesn't even seek to make a genuine argument for the existence of the sublime?
Role-playing god is just lame if you know you concede your belief is flawed from the start.
>>303408
>so why, then, do they include the old testament in modern printings of the bible?
The Old Testament is included in the bible for historical reasons, the OT is a history of and laws of the Jews. Many of the many of the stories in the Old Testament purportedly predate written and spoken languages we know of. For example, anyone who quotes Leviticus for why gays are bad and says they are christian, means they have not understood the entire purpose of Jesus.
Also there isn't one "The Bible" - The word literally means book. The Protestant bible has like 60 books in it, the Ethiopian Orthodox bible has like 80 in it and (probably) every different biblical canon contains books from the original Hebrew bible.
>is the god of the old testament a different god from the new testament?
It's the Abrahamic god that Jews and Muslims also worship, although, they may seem different because the stories in the Old Testament generally do not depict or represent the teachings of Christ.
>>303516
nice reading comprehension, keep acting smart, kid
>>303497
Catholics have always been heretics.
>>298967
It's pointless to think about. It seems unlikely, but who am I to say? I live as if there isn't an afterlife because it seems like a more likely bet.
>>301355
> why would it be humanlike?
Not that I agree or disagree with you (as it presupposes that a god would have a form) but people create toys, robots, and art that look like people. What's to say a god wouldn't do the same?
>>304343
>I live as if there isn't an afterlife because it seems like a more likely bet.
Why would anyone think that is the more likely bet? That's like betting on the Loch Ness monster existing
>pop psychology and shoddy probability calculus and general shit arguments
>no references to any issues in the philosophy of religion
This is the state of modern atheism. These are the intellectual elites of the modern atheist movement talking (everyone on 4chan claims to have an IQ >140)
>>299112
You got it.
But honestly, we can't prove or disprove the existence of anything. So why should I bother to believe or not believe . I like the Schroedinger option. Well, nah, in fact I do believe, its just logical to believe in something than believe in nothing...
>>304563
>its just logical to believe in something than believe in nothing.
You can't just assume that. Let me help you.
www.marcsandersfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/paper_Turner.pdf
Timeline
Childhood: Believed in religion as a vehicle to attain fortune and luck.
Teens: Became a "euphoric" athiest
Twenties to now: Life experiences and reflecting upon the nature of the universe led me to become a christian with some buddhist moral beliefs. I understand that a lot of shit in the bible is symbolic and the like, and really teaches us to be good people (if you can disregard the angry jewish history shit).
I want to eat mcdonalds hamburgers even though I know they will give me heartburn.
No, I realized that there wasn't enough solid, logical evidence to support the existence a deity'ss presence in the universe; not enough evidence for my young edgelord mind. Still haven't come out for family's sake. I am shameful and a coward but oh well..
>be christian
>never really into it
>read book about humanism
>realize i dont need to be christian to be a good person
>never come out as athiest just when asked if i went to mass i say no
>>304603
This is why you shouldn't become an atheist just because "God is a jerk and stuff".
>>304452
That's the problem. We're assuming for no reason that the lord of the entire universe designed one species of animals to look like him. Why are we so special?
>>304665
I thought god looks like a bird or a ghost or something.
Do you hail Sithrak?
>>302912
As long as they're having fun I guess. I would never join them but I think the LeVayan satanists did some good work with that baphomet statue.
Do you believe you aren't a geewok?
Have you ever experienced Sithrak?
Do you believe in Sithrak's creation story?
Do you believe in the scripture of the blind gibberer?
>>301355
Wouldn't God present himself in a way that would make him in some way comprehensible to us? When you talk to kids, you don't exactly give them the adult explanation of everything.
>>304725
If the Abrahamic god exists their true form is most likely a being beyond our comprehension. It could in fact just be some metaphysical "stuff" rather than one we could understand with our own limited senses. Pic related is an angel.
>>298967
> Do you guys believe in god? If yes, why? If no, why not?
Yes I believe in god, because of what I have seen and understand about the world. Because of what I have read.
> When did you come out of the atheist closet?
I actually was an atheist until very recently, say six months ago, but my whole belief system got a shake up when I started reading some deep fucking books.
>>299170
The old 'ma lerd the wirld is too terrbl fr a god"
You are speaking from a human perspective. We see things as good and bad.
God simply sees creation - with no biases or preferences
>>299170
When you die you return to the big pool of infinite consciousness which is God. You can't destroy consciousness btw, it just changes states - like you can't destroy energy
>>298967
Yes
> Went to Catholic School as a child
> Become edgy anti-theist, hard line anti-religious bent
> Go to university
> Realize that I had no good reasons to be against Religion
> Study all the major religions
> Wind up back at Catholicism
Though I'm not all the way there yet, its clearly better than atheist alternative intellectually. I'm making my way towards faith.
>>299875
Someone needs a redpill
>>301091
Such bait
>>301096
> Giving god human characteristics aside from love for creation
Not sure you believe in the real thing there friend
>>301355
I believe that god encompasses everything. I believe that consciousness is like a water droplet from the ocean of god, and we all have a little bit. So yeah. He's human in that we are human.
>>304770
I envy you. I'm losing my faith, and I really want to feel God's presence again.
>>304787
>I believe that god encompasses everything
So he's another universe? Or are you a pantheist?
>>304802
Pantheist I guess
>>304859
>>304802
It's Panentheist not Pantheist.
>>304770
>its clearly better than atheist alternative intellectually
Why?
>>304893
not OP. Atheism is boring.
Okay here is a good indicator if your belief is true or not
> You don't feel angry or infuriated or even the least bit annoyed when someone doesn't have the same belief you do.
When I was an atheist someone believing in god was enough to get me annoyed and snarky. Even if I didn't, I had the urge to be like 'you believe in nothing, god's not real.'
Actually believe in god, pretty settled with my belief, feel no need to be a cunt about it
>>304770
Further evidence as to why it's not good to become an atheist because "God and religion sucks and junk". You should stop believing because it doesn't make good sense.
>>298983
I think its only human to believe one knows everything. To believe that everything is under their control. The great thing is that we have the freedom to decide what we believe in.
Think, for a sec, just how strongly, just how firmly, just how passionately you believe that a god does not exist. Its so apparent, and so resolute that theres no possible way you could be wrong.
Now, go back and consider the fact that every other human being can feel just as strongly, intensely, and passionately as you do about completely different ideas. And so from your perspective, the possible explanation for such deviation from your perfect, empirical view of existance MUST BE due to a defect in them. maybe its their character, their intelligence, some flaw. Because human is perfect. And then, ultimately, you should look at yourself and realize, if i, a rational, yet imperfect human being, can feel such absoluteness on atheism, perhaps another human can feel just the same about gods existance.
>>304907
You know that's a bullshit argument. Someone will just come up to you and say "Well I believe X, and I don't do what you said."
Yes, I am an atheist, but I regularly pretend to believe in things like the occult, paganism, magic, etc. just to piss people off. I do actually have a vested interest in these subjects, but anybody who tries to tell you that they're real with any certainty is trying to sell you something.
>>304665
Because we're the only sentient beings in the known universe?
>>304917
Well its like if your angry about it, you are really trying to prove to yourself that your belief is true. "Well of course there is no god, I mean where are the facts?" But like you don't get angry about your belief in the sun. You know the sun is there, you don't get snarky if someone doubts that the sun is there, you are 100% sure. Yes it doesn't work well in an argument. I am just saying that is a good thought process for yourself.
>>304925
We only think sentience is special because we have it. There are all kinds of amazing animals that could be argued as being "special" because of their attributes.
>>304893
Its more coherent as far as its general ontology and explanation of the universe goes. Insofar as the atheist alternative usually involves a theory of a self sufficient material universe that doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, I find that the Catholic religion's explanation for how the world continues to be sustained and operate the way it does, the general principles that account for it, the nature of good and evil, the importance of authority, community and works ( while not being totalitarian about it), etc all works out much better than other general position. Mind you,for me it is not just Catholicism, but Catholicism + Aristoteleanism ( a Scottist kind of Aristoteleanism more and more these days than Aquinas. Not that I don't love Aquinas). I don't think that any of it contradicts science either, rather it makes science more intelligible in the big picture of things ( obviously it is not needed to do science experiments though). There is also the fact that Catholicism has a more intellectually adept way of accounting for arational, but not irational, aspects of life ( mysticism for example).
The Nietzschean ontology of Will to Power, and most of the other religions have an alternative that isn't too far behind. Some atheists and agnostics have very good points to make as well.
>>304452
>>304665
>>304925
>>304932
Intelligence is just the function of a form, like how toasting bread is a function of a toaster.
Sure, there MIGHT be an intelligence that transcends the universe itself, but I think it's silly to think intelligence is the only function that can exist without form. I think toasting bread transcends the form of the toaster. I think the entire universe was created by a cosmic toaster.
yes because hitchens razor BTFOs all of religion
>>304932
But they don't know they have it, do they? Ha, stupid animals.
> doesn't hold up to much scrutiny,
Why not?
Also what's the most persuasive assertion Catholicism makes about how the world works?
>>304948
How the fuck does Hitchens get credit for this I have no idea can somebody please explain why this idea would need to be put in words?
I'm not upset about it and Hitchens is an ok guy but really.
>>304959
>How the fuck does Hitchens get credit for this
Because people don't know Roman history. "Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur" was a Roman legal principle.
At least he put it into public vernacular.
>>304959
I don't think anyone's under the impression that he invented the idea. He just came up with a snappy way of phrasing it.
>>304955
Explaining this stuff takes full books rather than 4chan posts, so bare with the briefness.
The problem with atheistic scientism is its reliance on the "laws of nature", without explaining how "laws of nature" actually compel anything. The "laws" are all totally contingent, as is their continuing influence on the universe ( the miracle is not some "extraordinary artifact" like an eye, it is the fact that we have continued regularities in the world that are totally contingent which is miraculous). In reality all the "laws" are is our own generalizations of contingent natural phenomena, we just unify individual cases into a universal case for our own organization. The phenomena grounds the laws, not the other way around. Trying to appeal to "laws of nature" so to explain natural phenomena is backwards. Given that the universe could have turned out in so many different ways, treating the "laws of nature" as our fundamental level of reality is intellectually weak. We need a guiding intelligence to maintain consistency and to give us our selection of all the possible universes that could have been instead of this one.
Likewise cosmological arguments show that causal series' end up requiring that there be a first uncaused cause that never changes, but the material universe is constantly expanding, so it can't be our fundamental level of reality.
As far as Catholicism goes. One thing that is unique to it is the Trinity. With the Trinity we ground all the possibilities of modes of causation/creation.
The father is the primary principle of creation, through a faculty of necessary causation, the intellect, he brings about the son " the word", through a faculty of contingent causation, the will, he brings about the holy spirit. This disjunction (necessary vs contingent) is a set of fundamental properties of being. It grounds both in a common source which allows their harmony in a universe that is both (mostly) determined, and also free for some beings in it.
>>305035
Well, I don't totally get what you mean by most of the stuff you're saying, so I guess I'd have to read whatever books you're reading. I'm still not convinced, though.
Define God.
>>298967
1. Non believer.
2. I stopped believing in god when I was about 8 years old. At the time it just didn't make sense and all the arguments for his existence were easily refutable.
It started with creationism sounding stupid as fuck, my secondary school is Catholic and there they started teaching some more advanced stuff and I chose to do Theology at A level.
None of the more advanced arguments could ever convince me either.
I think the crucial point I realised is that the only reason I was even debating with christianity is because of the geographical location I was borne in.
I probably wouldn't be an atheist had I been borne somewhere else.
But the cultural side of religion only made me doubt that it had any validity.
I went through a stage of being an edgy anti-theist from like 13-17.
Then I realised that just because someone held a different view point from me didn't mean they were stupid or insincere. They just had a different outlook on things.
I dunno what I believe in.
I argue with theists and atheists.
>>305130
Finally an actual agnostic on this board.
All the others are just anti-positivists who clearly believe in him or not, but just get hung up on a technicality.
How come you don't know? Have you explored it or do you just argue against what you think is wrong as and when it comes up?
>>305138
This, you can be an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist.
>agnostic theist
There is no proof of god, and god is unprovable, but I have faith anyways/
>agnostic atheist
If there was a god, there would be no way to confirm his existence, so I don't believe in fairy tales just because they might be true.
>>305132
>Have you explored it or do you just argue against what you think is wrong as and when it comes up?
I grew up learning Christianity and when my parents divorced, my mother married another man a few years later. He was a Muslim and eventually we all converted to Islam, which was a very hard change for me. When I went to college, I started meeting atheists and a lot of them had some very powerful arguments but it was never enough to sway me from what I now identify as agnosticism.
Agnostic here
No edge I just legitemately believe it's better to not know than to assume that you do
To all who are undecided or are just "agnostic"
If you were forced at gunpoint to make a $1000 bet on the existence of God, would you bet that he exists, or that he doesn't exist?
>>305164
How would you answer the question
'do you currently believe in god?' if the answer is no, then wouldn't you be an agnostic atheist as most 'atheists' are. This is in no way implying that someone who currently does not have belief in god or gods cannot later find a faith
>>305192
I believe in a ultimate creator, that transcends this and all potential universes but not a creator in the traditional sense.
>>305177
I'd say yes but I'd still not be sure
Pantheist - not an atheist in denial, I just don't agree with the idea of something being able to exist "outside" of the universe.
I just don't agree with religion because there's so many. If they all worshipped the same god i'd be more inclined to believe it but right now I'm just not sure.
closest i get to religion is thanking the animals i killed while hunting before eating them.
>>305177
Only 1000$ for a gunpoint bet is way too little for me to care and the topic is unverifiable by nature, the whole thing is pants on head retarded.
>>304735
There is something intensely beautiful about something so utterly incomprehensible.
>>303271
But you could touch it?!
>atheism is something that requires "coming out"
Lmao amerfats... Burgereating good-for-nothing pigs.
>>299026
>No one responded with this
I'm disappointed /his/
>>305806
>That extreme strawmanning.
>People believe that shit
Sasuga christfags, let's completely disregard the fact that all those monks carefully cherrypicked what was useful to the church and didn't contradict the faith but trashed everything else.
>Do you believe in god?
Maybe.
I was raised Catholic, lost my faith and became an edge lord for a while, but as I mature I start to see the benefits of a strong faith, both on a personal level and for society as a whole. There's no reason religion and scientific advancement can't go together, even if the religion turns out to be false all along, at least it will give peace of mind.
Plus, there is no larger fedora tip in all of the Western world than people poo-pooing on the Catholic Church for "holding us back" when it was by the monks work alone that we didn't have to hard reset after Rome fell.
>>305877
Interesting argument, I'm sure you have proof to back it up.
I was raised in a christian house, church every sunday until I was about 13 and got lazy, but I'd say I'm an apatheist, theism doesn't really appeal to me because I don't know for sure
Of course I do, the Bible is the prime example, or do you think all those gospels except four vanished into thin air, and what about the entirety of Gnosticism? Or Saint Jerome's work on the Bible.
Let's not forget about how butthurt the Church was with based Gutenberg who finally broke their tyrannical clutch on books, so butthurt they even made the Index to try to keep their censorship going.
Granted that there were notabe exceptions to the rule, like the irish amanuenses or Willem van Moerbeke but the church didn't think twice about branding a lot of books or ideas as heretical and either correcting them or downright not copying them, this is common knowledge of the medieval history.
>>306080
>waaaah, they didn't preserve all the meme books I like and instead only preserved all of the math, science, civic, and philosophical books that were relevant
>>305877
>not understanding that the Church, for all its bullshit cherry-picking, 'rediscovered' and translated the likes of Aristotle and Plato from Greek into Latin
>not understanding that these monks obsession with old books allowed them to survive through centuries of illiteracy and ignorance
>not understanding that this is the framework of our modern society and the very reason science is at the point where we've put several highly advanced robots on Mars
>mfw new-age atheists always want to blame the church for holding society back while they sit on their asses and do absolutely nothing to actually push society forward
>Do you guys believe in god?
Yes
>If yes, why?
I just do. It's fundamentally irrational but I don't see any reason not too.
>>298967
>When did you come out of the atheist closet?
amerifats never change
>>298967
People are animists by nature, a monotheistic God is just a step-up from a step-up. More powerful too, makes the most sense.
I don't believe in any God.
But,
If the Ay lmaos showed up and had the same concept of God as any other earthly religion then I'd more inclined to study that religion further.
>TFW devout Scientologist that studies Ancient religion low key
>>305877
>Sasuga christfags, let's completely disregard the fact that all those monks carefully cherrypicked what was useful to the church and didn't contradict the faith but trashed everything else.
>>306577
It's not irrational, in fact there are many logical arguments for the existence of God.
My personal favorite are Descarte's meditations, but Quinque Viae is a popular choice as well.
>>306577
>no reason not to be irrational
>>306685
>TFW devout Scientologist that studies Ancient religion low key
>>306778
Rationality is more or less pointless, anon. If you try to make a "rational" decision, are you truly making the decision or are you letting the world make the decision for you?
>>306778
What is rationality?
And why should we follow it? What makes it better than anything else?
>>306825
So go do something stupid then like sleep next to a hungry lion or leave the car running in your garage. There is no good reason to use your rationality to come to the conclusion that those are bad ideas.
Yes. I believe.
Why ? Because reading the Bible I noticed that there are real world trends in it that seems to have been somewhat known thousands of years ago and yet happening today.
>InB4 homosex fedora try to debate.
>>306866
Why shouldn't I do those things?
The only reason I wouldn't is because I value my life, but why should I value it?
>>306887
>Why shouldn't I do those things?
Exactly. Go do them now.
>The only reason I wouldn't is because I value my life.
You are using your rationality to come to the conclusion either action would be a danger to your life. You have no reason to be rational. Stop it. Go do the things without even thinking about about your life being at risk.
>>306881
>Because reading the Bible I noticed that there are real world trends in it that seems to have been somewhat known thousands of years ago and yet happening today.
>eternal recurrence
I don't see how this is much of an argument for christianity though.
>>307002
There's a reason for that. Shown by my section of wording and use of them
>>305877
dude you're fucking retarded, for 90% of recorded history the science and religion were the same and the church merely used science to understand the world better and get closer to god, it's only in the past 2 centuries that shit like creationism and the "earth is 5000 years old!" shit has popped up.
Even examples like when the church opposed heliocentric models of the universe, it's because Galileo didn't have proof of stellar parallax, which was the main issue that stopped contemporaries of Galileo and the church from officially adopting a heliocentric model until their discovery in the 1800s
>>307608
T b h senpai it was the protestants who memed it up for the rest of us. They were all
>muh biblical truth
>muh papists are cherry picking!
to the point where it became a shitfest of who was the most Christian, leading to the bullshit criticisms we have today.
>>299026
this is what the god emperor believed as well but it's not true it today's world.
Religion doesn't affect science anymore. It doesn't affect anything, it has become completely disengaged from the physical realm in most western nations.
>>298967
I don't really believe in god. I'd define myself more as an agnostic as an atheist though. I'd find it hard to believe that we are just an anomaly in the galaxy made by pure chance, but organized religion doesn't appeal to me in that respect.
I shouldn't have to dress up real nice and eat bread and drink water every Sunday (I was raised Mormon) to have a chance at getting into heaven after I die, if god really was a benevolent all-knowing guy he wouldn't care about all that. He'd just care if you were a good person, no matter if you were the pope or the member of a remote uncontacted tribe in the Congo. God favors kind atheists over hateful christians, is what I'm saying.
That isn't to say I hate religion. You see a lot of people (r/atheists and le euphorics) claiming religion is awful and does more harm than good. That's a load of nonsense, religion has pros and cons, and bad things related to religion happen all the time (and there are religions that are simply just worse than others), but that's conveniently forgetting the great stuff people do in the name of religion. Helping the sick, feeding the poor, and actually furthering scientific knowledge as opposed to trying to silence it (a priest first formulated the big bang theory, and the catholic church itsself accepts evolution as real).
Maybe we should stop being shitters in the name of our own magical sky fairies (or lack thereof) and instead be good people. Then we'd all have a shot at getting into our ideas of heaven.
>>308319
You are at the stage I was for years that I just recently moved out of. Now I see organized religion as a way to guide and bring people together, even if you don't really believe it, and that alone makes it valid.
>>309036
Yea that's what I'm thinking. Religion is by no means a bad thing, and people who think that are more close minded than those "religious bigots" they claim to be against.
>When did you come out of the atheist closet?
Why is there a need to come out? It's not like you need to come out of disliking apple closet.
>>298967
Yeah, but I believe in the non-interventionalist Deist god.
>why?
Because of all the random elements in the universe that had to happen perfectly for life to exist, let alone create humanity. I like to think the universe is one big movie for a bored higher power.
>>298979
>I think its called apatheism
quite honestly the only non-religious label I can respect
>>308319
>He'd just care if you were a good person, no matter if you were the pope or the member of a remote uncontacted tribe in the Congo
yes and no. He cares whether or not you seek his love and love other people because of it.
>>306881
care to elaborate?
I agree, just curious what specific ideas or motifs you noticed
>>306866
I'm an atheist because I'm not retarded, I guess. I can't even really entertain the possibility of believing some absurd, conveniently anthropomorphic supernatural bullshit because someone told me to. As I've grown religion actually just nauseates me ever more, because each year of adulthood makes me even more incredulous that any fully grown adult could be this gullible and this unintelligent.
>>310413
You linked to the wrong post.
>>298967
I haven't believed in god since I was about 9. I grew up in a pagan family, with an engineer for a father. The non-Christian family environment made it pretty easy to look at the bible critically, and that he was an engineer encouraged me to develop some degree of scientific literacy.
It was pretty easy to conclude that the god described in the Bible is downright silly, and from there I looked for other explanations for the world around us. Neo-paganism seemed to just take whatever sounded good from whatever people thought might seem obscure, so reading source books from family friends was like a rapid-fire sampling of world religions. I found that I couldn't reasonably agree with any of it, so arrived at a rejection of organized religion quickly, and the notion of a benevolent higher power soon afterward.
>>298979
I'm atheist but tell people I'm a Christian atheist at the Christian coffee shop I go to and then tell them about Zizek
>>298967
I do desu.
>if yes why
because I want to :^)
>when did you come out of the atheist closet
I used to lie to myself saying I was atheist but every night I would begin "having conversations" with god. I think I'm just physically incapable of atheism.
>>303451
Cool. what did you find?
>>311615
>I used to lie to myself saying I was atheist but every night I would begin "having conversations" with god.
Did you consider getting medical attention for your schizophrenia?
>>298967
>Do you guys believe in god? If yes, why?
Yes, I believe God is the creator of our Universe and the force behind human nature. Not any God in particular. I also believe in natural rights.
>When did you come out of the atheist closet?
When I was around 18. I has spent a few years beforehand as agnostic challenging my belief or not, and I found faith in a higher power being behind Man's drive and development. Perhaps it's just self reassurance, but I do believe humanity is destined to achieve more. Or die trying.
>>311701
Nah. being branded as mentally ill wouldn't work at my favor at all. Besides, god never answered.
>tfw now have a person in my head i "converse" with that actually does respond back
>>302278
>Religion has no physical correlation
Not in 3 dimensions, why would it? This board is filled with science-fuckers yet fails to realise theories are constantly being disproven. Has it never crossed your mind that God exists on a higher dimensional plane? Why would a god bother going near us. Even if it did the chances of it contacting us at this moment in time are ridiculously slim, since it would exist outside of time anyway.
>>311803
>Has it never crossed your mind that God exists on a higher dimensional plane?
What is this based on?
>>302827
This.
>There is a God because I was told so
>There isn't a God because I can't see it and religion scares me but I can't have my own opinion
Both equally retarded
>>298967
I don't see any empirical evidence of a god. Should some come to light then I would believe in a god.
>>311812
>There isn't a God because I can't see it and religion scares me but I can't have my own opinion
What?
>>311805
Physics, honey.
>>298967
>Do you guys believe in god?
No
>Why not
I just don't
>When did you come out of the atheist closet?
When I was 12 or 13
>>311837
You'll have to point us the discovery by physicists of god and the higher plane where he exists. I must have missed this enormous event in human history.
