Is the English language more Romance or Germanic?
>>283862
think of it as an Indian kid who spent all of his life in Europe with white parents and no interest in india. hes genetically an indian but his mannerisms and psychological culture are european
It's a French creole.
It's just bastardised French. It used to be a French colony after all.
>>283903
this is pretty much Britain as a whole
It's fundamentally Germanic but with a lot of Romance loanwords and influences
>>283943
>and influences
like what
inb4 French nationalists claim English is Romance, while every linguist cringes
>>283862
You tell me
>>283979
Lol even the words that are different in English from French are still French words (area, permission, prohibited).
>>283962
English is romance, the Normands were 100% French, England was a French colony, the 100 Years War was a civil war between the king of France and his most powerful vassal.
And if you are Anglo, you are a French rape baby.
in terms of syntax, I'd say it's pretty germanic, vocab wise it's a pretty good mix.
>>283862
English is like someone took Dutch, but replaced all the vocabulary with French and Latin.
>>283979
the only words that resemble each other in the German and English sentence are the ones derived from latin (Military, State, Civil, Person)
>>284000
And even the only few German words that are somewhat understandable for English speakers are Romance ones (staaten, militär, zivilpersonen)
>>284006
>Normans
>100% french
History: Germanic, as it's derived from Anglo-Saxon, a German/Dutch dialect
Phonology: Germanic (large amount of vowels, TH and W sounds, GH sound still exists in Scottish English)
Writing: Germanic (e.g. "ck" instead of "kk", vowel doubling)
Grammar: Germanic (e.g. adjectives before nouns, questions begin with a verb, past tense with -ed or ablaut)
Lexicon: both (nearly all basic words are Germanic, the large number of Romance words is only because of needless [superfluous, unnecessary, redundant[ loanwords that have the same meaning as their Germanic counterpart or are scientific words used in all European languages)
In conclusion:
English = Germanic with French superstratum and Celtic substratum
French = Italic (Romance) with Germanic superstratum and Celtic substratum
German = Germanic with Latin adstratum
Latin = Italic with Germanic adstratum
Also, English is NOT a pidgin, as the grammar is still too complex for a pidgin. Just think of all the irregular verbs (more than in German by the way, which is known for its conservative grammar).
>>284052
>Celtic substratum
Source?
>Just think of all the irregular verbs (more than in German by the way, which is known for its conservative grammar).
Source?
>>284052
Oh and as you can see in the picture, French and German have more lexical similarity than French and English. This is what happens when you use scientific analysis instead of posting some meme pictures.
>>284052
what do you mean by "irregular"? germanic strong verbs?
>>284052
English grammar and syntax are closer to French than to German, and I'm not going to list the number of French/Latin words you just used because I'd just be rewriting your entire post.
>>284069
English grammar and syntax is closest to North Germanic languages though
>>283862
English is Germanic guys!!!!
>>284036
What, do you think the few thousands of Nordic warriors that settled Normandy didn't take local wifes, and that their children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren didn't speak French and had a French culture ?
Do you think that once Robert got the Duchy of Normandy every single inhabitant transformed into Norwegians ?
Do you think that the army of William II was only composed of the descendants of those few thousands Norwegians warriors ?
>>284097
Rollo's son was already 50% Danish and 50% French
So it's pretty easy to understand that his grand-grand-grand-grandson William the Bastard had more French admixture than anything else
>>284087
wood
flood
(ice)berg
sea - See (German) - zee (Dutch)
waste(land)
folk
tails (of a coin)
i'll give you colour and army
rich
might
speech, also tongue - Zunge - tung
>>284121
>(ice)berg
No. Just no
>rich
Doesnt mean empire
But yeah, most of French words in English have a Germanic synonym
But since these French words are very widely used, calling English a Germanic language is kinda wrong
For exemple, you'll hardly find a post on this board without a French or Latin word
True Germanic languages like Dutch or Swedish dont have romance words in every sentences
>>284165
That's true - English was pretty much cvcked by the Normans.
However, you can write a sentence without any Romance words, while you can't write a sentence without any Germanic words.
>>284078
Semantics is more relevant than your autistic linguistic analysis of syntax. It is literally the area of "meaning." A french guy and an english guy can easily communicate meaningful ideas through similar words and simplistic sentences, whereas there is no immediate verbal recognition of ideas from german to english.
I cant understand anything a german says as a speaker other than words I have learned from experience.
Talking to a french guy or a spanish guy as an english speaker-speaking from experience- you can figure each other out and convey ideas like nouns or verbs and with hand gestures, easily communicate most basic ideas while "acting out" your words. The other speaker will pick up on words that he or she recognizes and combine those words with the body language, then reinforce that connection by offeri g suggestions on how to structure those basic ideas into each other's languages.
That process is much more difficult from german to english and vice versa. Syntax is great with context but it pales to the connection that spanish/english\french have
It's more Germanic. Those percentage charts are hugely misleading. I speak French and I know that most of the common words that are used are Germanic. There fancy poncy words that are used less are French. Even though there's more French.
If you want to know about the language that people actually speak in England is mostly German.
>>284453
>No, its fundamentally Celtic.
English has 0 Celtic influence, literally none.
>>284458
Do you understand Networking?
English is a series of encapsulations, at its most primitive level is Celtic.
Germanic is only added at another level, Saxons did not ethnically cleanse the Britons, they mixed with them. Britons assimilated Saxons and then Normans conquered them.
>>284411
>A french guy and an english guy can easily communicate meaningful ideas through similar words and simplistic sentences
In written French and English maybe
I doubt that works when speaking
French words in English language have very different pronounciation than in French
For exemple:
Nation
>French = "na-sio"
>English = "naye-shun"
Theatre
>French = "tay-atr"
>English "thee-ay-dur"
Empire
>French = "am-peer"
>English = "em-payer"
Metre
>French = "maytr"
>English = "mee-dur"
Etc...
>>284475
We're talking about language here
>>284457
You're making it sounds like French words are only fancy stuff like "rendez-vous" or "cuisine"
In reality, a lot of basic everyday words are French (person, people, country, different, place, point, use, city, able, forest, color...etc)
The truth is that the only reason why Germanic words are "more used" is because useless words like pronouns and prepositions are exclusively Germanic
If you look only at relevant words (verbs, nouns and adjectives), it's easily 50/50 between French and Germanic
>>284476
I was just thinking about this
Another one that's strikingly different,
question
>kweshchin
>kestyo
>>284511
>useless words like pronouns and prepositions
>>284542
Take a sentence, let only verbs, adjectives and nouns
You'll still have the global sense
Now try to do the same by letting only pronouns and prepositions
I doubt it'll be as clear
>>283862
There's no more or less to it. English is a Germanic language, period. Scientifically, there's basically no such thing as a mixed language. A language has a grammatical base that the speakers carry forward continuously, and borrowed words are fairly superficial additions.
Structurally Germanic with a lot of romance words.
>>284657
>scientifically
Linguistics is not a science.
>>284672
>if stemautists don't like it, it's not a science!
>>284476
I could easily figure out those most of those verbally, with context its merely a matter of emphasizing certain sounds differently but the actual pronounciation is very similar. "Na-sio" "nay-shee-un" figure out quickly that "ion" is "io" and "nay" is "nah" then you can easilly make connections involving other words
>>284677
Its a science like political science is a science. That is, not at all.
It's somewhere between social science and the humanities.
>>284476
If you say both quickly its almost the same in every instance. Things like "tay" instead of "thee" and "may" instead of "me" are very minor differences that actually have similar structure. Figure out a few of these patterns and that inconsistency is minimal
>>284706
lin·guis·tics
[liNGˈgwistiks]
NOUN
the scientific study of language and its structure, including the study of morphology, syntax, phonetics, and semantics. Specific branches of linguistics include sociolinguistics, dialectology, psycholinguistics, computational linguistics, historical-comparative linguistics, and applied linguistics.
>b-but it's not a "hard" science
Back to /sci/
>>284475
He's talking about language you clown
>>284666
pretty much this
thanks, Satan
autists itt baka
>>284476
>English "thee-ay-dur"
>English = "mee-dur"
Do you have a speech impediment or something?
Top kek these threads always bring out the frogs full force.
It's a Germanic language, and we were conquered by the Normans, not the French.
>>285808
>ehm-pihr
No
Just
The letter "i" is "ee" not "aye" if youi want to describe it phonetically to non-anglos
English language is the only one to use "i" as "aye"
>>285824
>and we were conquered by the Normans, not the French.
Yeah but the Normans spoke French
It's like saying that current lingua franca is American, not English
>>286180
No.
The Normans spoke French, but were culturally distinct from the rest of France.
It's like saying that the English conquered parts of Mexico because Americans speak English.
>>286434
And it's also like saying that current lingua franca is American, not English (since it's the US that made English relevant)
>>283862
it's germanic, and not romance. yes, a large portion of the vocabulary is of romance origin, but the source of a language's vocabulary does not enter into the typology of a language. it literally doesn't matter where the words come from. the phonology of english is germanic. the syntax of english is germanic. the prosody, semantics, morphology, pragmatics, anything you want to name, is germanic. there is no meaningful romance aspect to english, unless, for some unprincipled reason, you count a large number of loan words.
>>285792
what he's trying to do is represent the phonemic neutralization of intervocallic t and d in american and australian english. it's actually not phonetically a t or a d, it is an alveolar tap or a flap depending on the terminology you want to use, the same thing as spanish r. it's a regular, predictable phonological process that results in the homophony of many words like ladder~latter, patted~padded, etc.
>>284087
>father - Vater - vader - père
>hand - Hand - hand - main
>to eat - essen - eten - manger
>birth - Geburd - geboorte - naissance
Totaly romanic :DDD
>>287029
Tell me what exactly science is, and how linguistics is science
>>288372
I got you senpai
http://bfy(.)tw/2w5e
France took over England.
Ergo it is a romance language.
>>290709
>A country being taken over by another one changes its language group
also
>France took over England
The Normans took over England and it remained independent of the French crown. In fact, England took over many parts of France.
>>290709
Europeans took over the Americas, therefore Tsalagi and Mayan are Indo-European languages.
>>he doesn't pick old Germanic words instead of old French ones in everyday speech in order to strengthen the cleanliness of his tongue
>>290772
>order
>>283862
>defining a language only by words.
Retards.
>>290772
hey, thanks m8
from those three "germanifications" on the other thead you took mine :3
wordstock > lexicon >>> vocabulary
>>290809
>not wordhoard
>>290795
Us Anglo Saxons gotta stick together
>>290819
>beowulf unleashed his wordhoard
damn, what a cool way to say he spoke
>>290778
FUCK
*so that
>>290834
>French word
fairly sure a lot of french words have roots in latin mate.
>>290858
too late, m8.
you are an embarassme- er, you have brought shame to the thread.
>>290873
And?
They entered English through French, so they're French
That's what makes the distinction between "French" and "Latin" in OP chart
If you go at the very origin for each word, you have no French, Latin or Germanic words but only Proto-Indo-European ones
>>290882
We can only do so intrepi-, uh, fearlessly.
Better question is if French is a Germanic or Romance language.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_words_of_Germanic_origin
>Boulevard
Middle French bolevard, from Middle Dutch bolwerc (“bulwark, bastion”)
>Chic
From German schick (“elegant”)
>Félon
From Old French felon, from Medieval Latin fellō, fellōnis, from Frankish *felo (“wicked person”)
>Garçon
From Middle French, from Old French garçun (“servant”), oblique case of gars, from Frankish *wrakjō (“servant, boy”)
Et cetera
As someone from a French/English bilingual city who was taught both languages for 11 years and only walked away knowing one, French and English have vastly different grammar and syntax. Learning French vs. English you learn immediately they share no meaningful features in these departments.
And every book and expert in the world agrees on the fact that English is Germanic.
>>290905
And English shares even less with German
>>290930
>vocabulary determines family
No
It's easier for an English speaker to learn French than German
Only people who disagree are Germanboos
>>283862
Germanic with a lot of stolen Roman words. When you consider the fact that England as we know it was built by an entire culture of looters and pillagers it doesn't seem so strange.
>>290990
Yeah, discounting all the false-friends and other vocabulary half-similarities, sentence structure makes more sense.
>>284036
Just because you claim viking heritage doesn't mean you're not french. They spoke french, ate french food, slept with french women, and used french tactics.
>>290930
Mein vater und mutter ein haus haben. Vo is die katze?
Mijn vader en moeder hebben een huis. Waar is de kat?
My father and mother have a house. Where is the cat?
Mon pere et mere ont une maison.Ou est la chat?
One of these things is not so much like the others.
>>291003
He's not denying that they're French, he's denying they're 100% like the rest of France.
>>291003
Sauce for pic?
So, do you people just spurt out whatever sense to you intuitively?
It's one thing to tentatively claim something and then be corrected, but the majority of you guys are so, so, so incredibly wrong it's not even funny. Worse yet, you make these claims as if you're completely convinced you're right.
The level of arrogance in this thread is astounding. You disgust me.
>>291005
Two can cherrypick
The river at the center of the forest
La rivière au centre de la forêt
Der Fluss in der Mitte des Waldes
Linguistics student here.
The affiliation of any given language to a language family is determined by its ancestry. If two languages have a common proto-language - that is, if they once were one single language - then they belong to the same language family.
English, French and German are all Indo-European languages. Yes, this means that they all share a common ancestor which is postulated to have been spoken about 4000 to 3000 BC in the south of present-day Russia.
The speakers of this languages split up into several groups, among those the proto-Germanics and the proto-Italics.
Long story short, English is a West Germanic language by ancestry, just like Dutch, German and Yiddish.
French can easily be traced back to Latin and is thus a romance language.
However, this doesn't change the fact that a large number of English words were originally loanwords from French and Latin, as it is stated in the OP pic. Thus it may seem like it has more in common with other romance languages than with Germanic languages. The extensive language contact and idealization of French by the English has led to a "hybrid language" sharing many typological features with both groups.
>>291094
>>291121
What kind of typological features?
>>291121
>east Germanic is kill
>>291121
>chart neatly split into centum on left and satem on right
nicely done
>>291082
Crecy (sic probably) a comic about the titular battle in the 100 Years War
>>291121
>Anglo-Frisian
But I thought the Saxons invaded England?
>>291190
they did but i guess the dialect of the angles won out in the end
>>291190
It's a weird thing. Friscians and the Angles and Saxons were neighbors on the Germanic North Sea coast some Saxons+Angles went and made England, others stayed in Saxony and eventually lost the language. They spoke a similar language because of this.
>>291108
I'm not cherry-picking. English is a Germanic language. That you think German is further away from it than French doesn't change this.
That's why I included the Dutch, so you know there are other Germanic languages beyond German, and English is indisputably Germanic. A simple comparison demonstrates this.
Would throwing in English's closest living relative (beyond Scots) help? I'll use YOUR sentence:
De rivier oan de sintrum in de wald.
Still think English isn't Germanic because German uses fluss or wald?
>>291141
All kinds of things. Just to name a few examples:
Ablaut is normal among Germanic languages (sing, sang, sung). The plural suffix -s is also present in Romance languages like Spanish, whereas Germanic languages have more complex plural flexion. The realization of c as /s/ before front vowels is the same in French. Etymology is obviously a big deal.
But to be completely precise, the complicated history has turned English into something very unique. It has one of the most complex phonologies among the world's languages and its analytic character is rather atypical of Indo-European languages. Although a similar trend can presently be observed in other Germanic languages.
>>291161
I know ;_;
>>291190
Ye. The Anglo-Saxons.
>>291216
People in northern Germany and northeast Nederland still speak Saxon dialects.
>>291239
True
>>291108
the flood in the middle of the woods
>>291223
both frisian and dutch are more closely related to english than german
>>291224
No. You're so full of shit.
English is still rich in ablaut. Pluralization in -s is an inherited Germanic feature that is still used at least secondarily in the other West Germanic languages. There was no /k/ > /s/ shift in English; soft c appears only in borrowings and a few respellings. Its phonology is perfectly ordinary; its only really unusual feature, the large number of vowel phonemes, is a common trait throughout the Germanic languages.
>>291980
>Pluralization in -s is an inherited Germanic feature that is still used at least secondarily in the other West Germanic languages
Also I'm pretty sure Dutch and Scandinavian have generalized -en and -ar, respectively, as much as English has -s
>>291980
>English is still rich in ablaut.
Yeah, that's what I said.
>Pluralization in -s is an inherited Germanic feature that is still used at least secondarily in the other West Germanic languages.
Yup. That doesn't change the fact that it also shares this feature with the romance languages.
>There was no /k/ > /s/ shift in English; soft c appears only in borrowings and a few respellings.
And spelling is exactly what I was talking about here. C is pronounced /s/ before front vowels and /k/ in other contexts, among other possibilities. English inherited this orthographic feature from French. German, for example, changed the spelling to k or z (/ts/) in most loanwords.
>Its phonology is perfectly ordinary; its only really unusual feature, the large number of vowel phonemes, is a common trait throughout the Germanic languages.
Okay, I'll give you that. Pretty much any living Germanic language has a weird vowel system in its own right. But even here I feel English takes a special place because
>almost every vowel is a diphthong
>no rounded front vowels
>huge variations in vowel quality among dialects
>rhoticity
>>291872
And they're all Germanic languages. So?
>>292140
Which still doesn't make English a Romance language.
>>284476
>"thee-ay-dur"
This is wrong.
>>290960
>not knowing IPA
>2015
I seriously hope you guys don't do this.
>>292140
>English
>Papa and mama
Get the fuck out
I suggest the book "If the English had won in 1066" that outlines what English might have looked like had the Norman invasion failed and the language kept most of its Germanic words.
Ic eom þin modor
hatte ic wig
þu dotest oþ deaþ
swa scealt þu ne englisc cnawan
>>293044
Could you link a pdf or something? I can't find it anywhere for free and don't have the money to buy it.
>>292032
>it also shares this feature with the romance languages.
But only coincidentally. You might as well say English is partly Iranic because "bad" in Farsi also means "bad."
>spelling is exactly what I was talking about here.
Spelling is just about the most superficial, artificial, cognitively unreal thing that passes for a linguistic feature. You might as well say that Vietnamese is Romance because it's written in the Latin alphabet.
>almost every vowel is a diphthong
Not true in any dialect I'm familiar with
>no rounded front vowels
Not true of all dialects, and not unusual at all--rounded front vowels are typologically fairly rare
>huge variations in vowel quality among dialects
100% normal for a language that has a range of dialects.
>rhoticity
There's nothing odd at all about either rhotic or non-rhotic dialects, nor about a language losing a liquid consonant in cluster and coda environments with effects on the preceding vowel.
I have to ask how many languages you know a single thing about. Your bar for "very unique" is very low--basically it seems like it can accommodate anything.
>>291005
>Mein vater und mutter ein haus haben. Vo is die katze?
Your german is bad.
>Mein Vater und meine Mutter haben ein Haus. Wo ist die Katze
>>293345
>>292032
>no rounded front vowels
Well, but French has them :^)
>it also shares this feature with the romance languages.
Only recently. The Latin plural is, depending on the conjugation category, done with -i, -ae, -a, -es. The "-as, -os" in Spanish etc. is actually derived from the plural accusative forms in Latin.
Italian still kept the Latin (nominative) plural forms: -i, -e
>The man eats the apple
>L'homme mange une pomme
>Der Mann isst den Apfel
hmmm
>>295917
>The people of this country is violent
>Le peuple de cette contrée est violent
>die Menschen in diesem Land ist gewalttätig
>>284006
>french colonial empire
>northern portugal
lol you can't make this shit up
>>295987
>the men in this land are wild
>>295993
Pretty sure that's the Napoleonic Empire
>>296001
>The city uses the river
>La cité use la riviere
>Die Stadt nutzt den Fluss
>>296012
The state nuts in the flush.
as someone who has actually taken advanced courses in historical linguistics, I have to say that claiming english is romance just shows that you're ignorant. it is not romance. unless you want to learn historical linguistics, that's the end of the story for you. if you want to know exactly why it's considered germanic when at a very cursory superficial glance you wouldn't have come to that conclusion by yourself, you'll have to do some reading.
>>296012
wouldn't it be 'la ville utilise/fait la rivière'?
>>296919
Well yeah, but aren't ville and utiliser far more common than cité and user? I can't recall the last time I heard someone use cité in lieu of ville.
>>284052
>Just think of all the irregular verbs (more than in German by the way, which is known for its conservative grammar).
This is really interesting if true
Can anyone confirm this?
>>284087
>cherrypicking shit
And colour is kleur in Dutch! Verf = Paint!
Fucking retard post 0/10
>>302509
>And colour is kleur in Dutch
And guess where it comes from?
Pointing out that Dutch has been somewhat raped by French too doesnt make English anymore Germanic
>>283954
The apostrophes. Other Germanic languages don't combine two words into single ones by omitting letters.
>>284165
>True Germanic languages like Dutch or Swedish dont have romance words in every sentences
Both Swedish and Dutch have plenty of French loans, several of which are commonly used. For example, the chart in >>284087 says that the Swedish word for army is 'här', but the french loan 'armé' is much more commonly used, and 'nummer' is used way more often than 'heltal'.
>>305004
Contractions are pretty common in German. There are numerous preposition + article contractions along with a few English style contractions using apostrophes. Es and ein are the two most common ones I can think of.
>>284165
>No. Just no
Fuck off reddit
>>305062
But you can easily write a entire book in Dutch without using French loanwords, we do have them but they're not thát common.
>>305070
Make an example please
It is clear to me that English people spoke Latin as their mother tongue by the time the Roman empire fell in the west, just like the other former-Celtic neighboring countries, France and Spain, so those 60% Latin come from British Vulgar Latin not Normans
>>305603
Most of the Latin words are common to almost all European languages are almost only used in academia. And English did not evolve from the Celtic languages spoken by the inhabitants of Brittain before the Angles, Saxons and Jutes arrived.
>>305603
You're plain wrong
Latin was never the main language in Britain, even during Roman time
And the few Latin word known by the locals got "erased" when the Anglo-Saxons arrived
As you can see on OP graph, half of English language's Romance vocabulary come from French.
These are the most common words (city, people, place, forest, river, mountain, person, part...etc)
They entered English language when England was ruled by French speaker from 1066 to 1485
The other half comes directly from Latin
These are less widely used words and mainly technical terms (focus, ultimatum, virus, memento, forum..etc)
They entered English language when Latin was the religious lingua franca during Middle Ages
>>305908
Latin derived words in your text include 'during', 'entered', 'used', 'vocabulary', 'language', 'directly', 'technical', 'terms', 'religious', basically everything which is not very basic vocabulary which local Latin speakers would not know the Germanic equivalent, there is zero Celtic substratum in English, indicating they spoke Latin not Celtic, which makes sense because England was basically the same as France in the roman empire, both former Celtic countries that were treated the same. The graph is modeling those words as coming from French because it completely ignores British Vulgar Latin which was certainly more similar to French Vulgar Latin than any other variety.
>>306046
Let me break it down for you, you fucking retard.
1. Most of these words aren't attested in English until Middle English or even modern English
2. They ignore all the phonological rules active in English from ~500-1000
>>305439
in + dem = im
zu + der = zur
für + das = fürs
These are just a few. Most of the prepositions I can think have a least one possible contraction.
As for contractions using apostrophes, "es" is by far the most common. "Wie geht's" is a very common phrase and is a contraction of "Wie geht es." Various declensions of "ein" are sometimes contracted using an apostrophe to " 'n". However, this is only used in informal writing.
>>306046
>Latin derived words in your text include 'during', 'entered', 'used', 'vocabulary', 'language', 'directly', 'technical', 'terms', 'religious', basically
Except all these words came through French, not directly from Latin
>The graph is modeling those words as coming from French because it completely ignores British Vulgar Latin which was certainly more similar to French Vulgar Latin than any other variety.
It labels them as French because they are.
Every historian and linguist agree on it, it's made obvious by how close these words are from the French version rather than from the pure Latin one.
British celts didn't speak Latin, and anyway their language disappeared after the Anglo-Saxons invaded and brought Old English
Are you dense or just in denial about English language's huge French heritage.
