![0119muhammad04[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/4QQfSwb.jpg "0119muhammad04[1].jpg")
What was Muhammad like as a historical figure?
I'd like both sides please
>>279324
Read the Quran infidel.
>>279324
everyone who exsisted was a historical figure
Shitskins pedophile worshipping a pagan moon god
But read Quran if you want to know
>> 279345
but relevance anon
OP is a fag and gone
X
>>279324
Is it true that Muhammad was a murderous warlord?
>>279481
As much as most other tribal leaders at the time, yes.
Most of the Old Testament is choke-full with stuff á la "Go kill a bunch of Canaanites", I realize Muhammed lived thousands of years later, but his behaviour was in no way any more murderous or barbaric than was custom in that place and time.
>>279514
The Middle East has always been a shithole behind the times compared to Europe.
>>279324
He was a small time merchant in Mecca for years. And then booted out of Mecca for preaching his Abrahamic monotheist religion. Mecca at the time was a multicultural melting pot with a polytheistic religious center.
So he retreated to Medina, became a bandit, raiding various caravans. Got enough wealth to build him own army and marched on Mecca. They finally surrendered and he became the governor of Mecca where he began to build his religious empire.
>>279553
>I'm curious, are there any contemporaries who've written about Muhammeds life?
If you mean contemporaries by other famous writers, no.
A lot of Arabs, most of them his relatives and friends have written about him from a second person perspective. But it might be very biased.
>>279514
But he did he actually tell people to kill other people? Because I'm pretty sure doesn't say that in the Quean. In fact it says not to kill people.
>>279530
Well since Rome at least. Europe spent thousands of years as a barbaric shithole while the Persians, Greeks and Egyptians were off having real civilization.
>>279560
Yes, that's what I assumed, I meant maybe someone not too close to him, more from a historical than a religious perspective.
>>279568
He did, at times. There are surah for times of peace, and for times of war. Though Muhammed is definitely not "turn the other cheek", nor is he always "lets just murder everyone for fun".
>>279568
>I'm pretty sure doesn't say that in the Quean
It says not to kill good muslims. Of course if you eat a bacon breakfast that means you are not a good muslim and are permissible to kill.
>>279579
>Greeks
>not Europe
Eh?
>>279584
How is killing people for not wanting to submit or convert not "lets just murder everyone for fun"?
>>279617
It's not for fun, obviously. It is religiously, or politically motivated. There's a reason for it (as asinine as that reason might be, of course)
>>279628
You are right; it's more "lets just murder everyone for butthurt".
>>279324
Sahih al-Bukhari, considered to be the most authentic Hadith collection in Sunni Islam, has some interesting sayings about Muhammad:
Book 2 Hadith 18:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Book 2 Hadith 19:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." The questioner again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah's pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet)."
Book 2 Hadith 22:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you."
>>279671
It's like /r9k/: the religion
>>279585
Some of those quotes are equating Islam with Allah. The former is a religion (an institution), the latter is the God monotheists believe in.
>>279692
That makes no difference to muslims who open the Koran and read all that stuff, since that stuff is allah's commands through his prophet.
>>279671
Book 2 Hadith 29:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."
Book 3 Hadith 65:
Narrated Abu Musa:
A man came to the Prophet and asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What kind of fighting is in Allah's cause? (I ask this), for some of us fight because of being enraged and angry and some for the sake of his pride and haughtiness." The Prophet raised his head (as the questioner was standing) and said, "He who fights so that Allah's Word (Islam) should be superior, then he fights in Allah's cause."
Book 4 Hadith 100:
Narrated Abu Qilaba:
Anas said, "Some people of `Ukl or `Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle ."
I think the idea that the Koran is literally Gods' word made the whole thing pretty tough to argue about.
>>279324
>both sides please
both sides of what ?
as a younger person mohamhead was broke and mostly a hippie child preaching free love
then he hooked up with a wealthy milf and he turned violent and started his warlord years
>>279705
But it's not Muhammad's fault that Muslims misunderstand what he's saying.
>>279730
How are they misunderstanding what he's saying if he says pretty loud and clear "kill anyone who disagrees with me"?
>>279324
>What was Muhammad like as a historical figure?
I always liked this summary:
>That Muhammad existed is almost certain, but most details of his life are contested, and bound up in the mythopoeia of a newly emerging civilisation. His life is the product of hundreds of years of sectarian and theological wrangling. An entirely new discipline of scientific history emerges in the Middle Ages in order to collate, rationalise and authorise his biographies and sayings. It wasn't imposed from above; there was no conspiracy. Today people use words he never said, in a context that never existed, to legitimise behaviour he could have never understood.
>>279740
He's not. All he says is that the unfaithful will be punished; the unfaithful being disbelievers in God, which in those was synonymous with being immoral, and their punishment is spiritual.
>>279715
>"Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle ."
So that's where death for renouncing islam comes from, other than the Quran itself. Just these days they're killing a poet who did nothing but write his poetry and say he doesn't care for islam.
>>279759
>So that's where death for renouncing islam comes from, other than the Quran itself
It doesn't come from the Quran at all, and it most likely comes originally from Zoroastrianism.
>>279715
Book 4 Hadith 104:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "A wound which a Muslim receives in Allah's cause will appear on the Day of Resurrection as it was at the time of infliction; blood will be flowing from the wound and its color will be that of the blood but will smell like musk."
Book 5 Hadith 21:
Narrated Qatada:
Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa`id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).
Book 8 Hadith 77:
Narrated `Aisha:
Um Habiba and Um Salama mentioned about a church they had seen in Ethiopia in which there were pictures. They told the Prophet about it, on which he said, "If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection."
Book 8 Hadith 85:
Narrated `Aisha and `Abdullah bin `Abbas:
When the last moment of the life of Allah's Apostle came he started putting his 'Khamisa' on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets." The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.
>>279752
>spiritual
>fight people guys
>spiritual
>strive hard against dem pork-eater guys
>spiritual
>cast terror into their hearts guys
>spiritual
>Kill them and capture them and besiege them guys
>spiritual
>strike off their heads and fingers guys
>spiritual
>spiritual
>spiritual
>>279759
Yeah ... in Saudi Arabia - America's "closest ally".
>>279777
It's written right in the post you quoted you dipshit.
>>279780
Book 10 Hadith 88:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief."
Book 23 Hadith 93:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
A black person, a male or a female used to clean the Mosque and then died. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) did not know about it . One day the Prophet remembered him and said, "What happened to that person?" The people replied, "O Allah's Apostle! He died." He said, "Why did you not inform me?" They said, "His story was so and so (i.e. regarded him as insignificant)." He said, "Show me his grave." He then went to his grave and offered the funeral prayer.
Book 25 Hadith 77:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet;; said, "Dhus-Suwaiqa-tain (literally: One with two lean legs) from Ethiopia will demolish the Ka`ba."
Book 34 Hadith 172:
Narrated Sa`id bin Abu Al-Hasan:
While I was with Ibn `Abbas a man came and said, "O father of `Abbas! My sustenance is from my manual profession and I make these pictures." Ibn `Abbas said, "I will tell you only what I heard from Allah's Apostle . I heard him saying, 'Whoever makes a picture will be punished by Allah till he puts life in it, and he will never be able to put life in it.' " Hearing this, that man heaved a sigh and his face turned pale. Ibn `Abbas said to him, "What a pity! If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects."
>>279791
Yeah, it's written in Hadith, a body of text derived in Iraq by third and fourth generation ex-Christian, ex-Jewish, and ex-Zoroastrian non-Arab Muslim converts.
>>279780
Man, pictures are the most horrible thing.
>And Sa`id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).
They can't even decide on a fucking number.
>>279803
>"What a pity! If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects."
t. Bob Ross
>>279803
Book 41 Hadith 3:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever keeps a dog, one Qirat of the reward of his good deeds is deducted daily, unless the dog is used for guarding a farm or cattle." Abu Huraira (in another narration) said from the Prophet, "unless it is used for guarding sheep or farms, or for hunting." Narrated Abu Hazim from Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A dog for guarding cattle or for hunting."
Book 48 Hadith 3:
Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who would kill Ka`b bin Al-Ashraf as he has harmed Allah and His Apostle ?" Muhammad bin Maslama (got up and) said, "I will kill him." So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka`b and said, "I want a loan of one or two Wasqs of food grains." Ka`b said, "Mortgage your women to me." Muhammad bin Maslama said, "How can we mortgage our women, and you are the most handsome among the Arabs?" He said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." Muhammad said, "How can we mortgage our sons, as the people will abuse them for being mortgaged for one or two Wasqs of food grains? It is shameful for us. But we will mortgage our arms to you." So, Muhammad bin Maslama promised him that he would come to him next time. They (Muhammad bin Maslama and his companions came to him as promised and murdered him. Then they went to the Prophet and told him about it.
Book 51 Hadith 49:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle .
Book 52 Hadith 22:
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."
>>279803
>While I was with Ibn `Abbas a man came and said, "O father of `Abbas! My sustenance is from my manual profession and I make these pictures." Ibn `Abbas said, "I will tell you only what I heard from Allah's Apostle . I heard him saying, 'Whoever makes a picture will be punished by Allah till he puts life in it, and he will never be able to put life in it.' " Hearing this, that man heaved a sigh and his face turned pale. Ibn `Abbas said to him, "What a pity! If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects."
But that's fucking boring shit. Also trees are not unanimated objects you uneducated dipshit, they are living creatures too that grow and die just like animals.
>>279852
The Hadith were technically (and literally) a meme for most of Islamic history. It's only lately that they've become what they are now.
>>279803
>>279832
Literally no human figure art, portraits, comics, manga, movies allowed. Literally no puppy pets allowed. Literally no just representation allowed, literally /r9k/ the religion.
Yeah I can see why Europeans are not converting while terrorists are all """""European"""""" arabs idiotically given a citizenship.
>>279832
Book 56 Hadith 139:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Book 56 Hadith 226:
Narrated `Ikrima:
`Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn `Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Book 59 Hadith 36:
Narrated Abu Talha:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying; "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature (a human being or an animal).
Book 59 Hadith 48:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."
>>279879
What's with the hatred of pictures and dogs though? Hating women is just regular r9k nonsense, but what's with dogs?
He had about a dozen of wives as well as sex slaves. He approved enslaving women of the defeated enemies for sexual purposes. He told other Muslims they can have 4 wives tops, but Allah told him that he's his favourite and can have more. Allah also told him to marry his adopted son's wife. That's all you need to know to make a judgement about his supposed prophethood.
>>279879
Book 60 Hadith 149:
Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "A lady was punished because of a cat which she had imprisoned till it died. She entered the (Hell) Fire because of it, for she neither gave it food nor water as she had imprisoned it, nor set it free to eat from the vermin of the earth."
Book 10 Hadith 8:
Narrated Humaid:
Anas bin Malik said, "Whenever the Prophet went out with us to fight (in Allah's cause) against any nation, he never allowed us to attack till morning and he would wait and see: if he heard Adhan he would postpone the attack and if he did not hear Adhan he would attack them." Anas added, "We reached Khaibar at night and in the morning when he did not hear the Adhan for the prayer, he (the Prophet ) rode and I rode behind Abi Talha and my foot was touching that of the Prophet. The inhabitants of Khaibar came out with their baskets and spades and when they saw the Prophet they shouted 'Muhammad! By Allah, Muhammad and his army.' When Allah's Apostle saw them, he said, "Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.
Book 63 Hadith 30:
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:
Some people (i.e. the Jews of Bani bin Quraiza) agreed to accept the verdict of Sa`d bin Mu`adh so the Prophet sent for him (i.e. Sa`d bin Mu`adh). He came riding a donkey, and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said, "Get up for the best amongst you." or said, "Get up for your chief." Then the Prophet said, "O Sa`d! These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sa`d said, "I judge that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have given a judgment similar to Allah's Judgment (or the King's judgment).
>>279777
>and it most likely comes originally from Zoroastrianism.
Care to elaborate?
>>279813
Why are Arab countries applying it now though?
>>279324
>What was Muhammad like as a historical figure?
total pile of shite
/thread
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/history.htm
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad
http://www.historyofjihad.org/mohammed.html
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/89289/time-unmask-muhammad-geert-wilders
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/cruelty.htm
>>279909
Zoroastrian priests, who had formulated a doctrine of death penalties for apostasy in their war against heretics and Christianity, converted to Islam and brought with them their ideas of spirituality, just as Jewish rabbinical converts brought with them their views on ritual cleanliness and stoning adulterers.
>>279927
>In the Middle Ages, it was common for Jewish writers to describe Muhammad as ha-meshuggah ("The Madman"), a term of contempt frequently used in the Bible for those who believe themselves to be prophets.[2][3][4]
>Jews called Muhammed meshuggah before it was cool
Damn it Jews
>>279908
Book 63 Hadith 120:
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Book 63 Hadith 122:
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married `Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Book 67 Hadith 69:
Narrated `Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Book 67 Hadith 93:
Narrated 'Urwa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
>>279919
With printing, the hadith became a popular collection for a changing Arab society moving away from the rural and into the urbanized modern world. This is also why Sufism has declined considerably from being the most popular form of religion, and how Sunni Madhabs moved from being distant legal traditions in ivory towers to actual church-like sects.
>>279944
Do you happen to have a source on that?
>>279977
Tom Holland's Shadow of the Sword.
>>279777
>>279944
Soup?
>>279970
Book 68 Hadith 34:
Narrated Nafi`:
Whenever Ibn `Umar was asked about marrying a Christian lady or a Jewess, he would say: "Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry ladies who ascribe partners in worship to Allah, and I do not know of a greater thing, as regards to ascribing partners in worship, etc. to Allah, than that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah's slaves."
Book 68 Hadith 54:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
A man came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! A black child has been born for me." The Prophet asked him, "Have you got camels?" The man said, "Yes." The Prophet asked him, "What color are they?" The man replied, "Red." The Prophet said, "Is there a grey one among them?' The man replied, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Whence comes that?" He said, "May be it is because of heredity." The Prophet said, "May be your latest son has this color because of heredity."
Book 92 Hadith 50
During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."
>>279982
Intredasting. Thanks.
>>280000
wasted get
>>279530
Absolutely false. Read up on the Islamic Golden Age.
>>280000
>A man came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! A black child has been born for me." The Prophet asked him, "Have you got camels?" The man said, "Yes." The Prophet asked him, "What color are they?" The man replied, "Red." The Prophet said, "Is there a grey one among them?' The man replied, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Whence comes that?" He said, "May be it is because of heredity." The Prophet said, "May be your latest son has this color because of heredity."
Damn, Mohammed is such a dick.
>>280039
You mean when you invaded Spain and leeched off the goodness of Europe and got rightfully kicked out by this woman?
>>280000
>During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."
Queen Elizabeth proving arab shits wrong since the Renaissance.
>>280039
>ISLAMIC
>GOLDEN
>AGE
>>280039
This. Musims were getting hella advanced while Christian Europe couldn't figure out how to wipe their asses.
I alsosuggest you watch this video
https://youtu.be/JZDe9DCx7Wk
>>280071
This woman meaning Isabella of Castilla, whose picture I couldn't post along with Elizabeth. Isabella proved arab shits wrong too.
>>280071
>You mean when you invaded Spain and leeched off the goodness of Europe and got rightfully kicked out by this woman?
>Spain under the Arabs
>A center of learning and commerce
>Spain after they were expelled
>A hole where everyone important tried to leave, exploited by English and Genoese bankers, and a backwater that never recovered the primacy it once had
>>280087
>reorganizes the governmental system
>brings the crime rate to the lowest it had been in years
>unburdens the kingdom of the enormous debt her brother had left behind
>Her reforms and those she made with her husband have an influence that extends well beyond the borders of their united kingdoms >completes the Reconquista
>expels muslims
>supports and finances Christopher Columbus's 1492 voyage that led to the opening of the New World and to the establishment of Spain as the first global power
Based woman.
>>280111
>Spain after they were expelled
>The Spanish Golden Age (Spanish: Siglo de Oro [ˈsiɣlo ðe ˈoɾo], "Golden Century") is a period of flourishing in arts and literature in Spain, coinciding with the political rise and decline of the Spanish Habsburg dynasty. El Siglo de Oro does not imply precise dates and is usually considered to have lasted longer than an actual century. It begins no earlier than 1492, with the end of the Reconquista (Reconquest), the sea voyages of Christopher Columbus to the New World, and the publication of Antonio de Nebrija's Gramática de la lengua castellana (Grammar of the Castilian Language). Politically, it ends no later than 1659, with the Treaty of the Pyrenees, ratified between France and Habsburg Spain. The last great writer of the period, Pedro Calderón de la Barca, died in 1681, and his death usually is considered the end of El Siglo de Oro in the arts and literature.
>The Habsburgs, both in Spain and Austria, were great patrons of art in their countries. El Escorial, the great royal monastery built by King Philip II, invited the attention of some of Europe's greatest architects and painters. Diego Velázquez, regarded as one of the most influential painters of European history and a greatly respected artist in his own time, cultivated a relationship with King Philip IV and his chief minister, the Count-Duke of Olivares, leaving us several portraits that demonstrate his style and skill.
>>280136
>El Greco, another respected artist from the period, infused Spanish art with the styles of the Italian renaissance and helped create a uniquely Spanish style of painting. Some of Spain's greatest music is regarded as having been written in the period. Such composers as Tomás Luis de Victoria, Cristóbal de Morales, Francisco Guerrero, Luis de Milán and Alonso Lobo helped to shape Renaissance music and the styles of counterpoint and polychoral music, and their influence lasted far into the Baroque period which resulted in a revolution of music. Spanish literature blossomed as well, most famously demonstrated in the work of Miguel de Cervantes, the author of Don Quixote de la Mancha. Spain's most prolific playwright, Lope de Vega, wrote possibly as many as one thousand plays during his lifetime, of which over four hundred survive to the present day.
What did Spain learn under muslims? How to kill people better for eating what you don't like? Where are the great muslim Spanish painters, playwrighters, and musicians?
>those quranic verses
Are all arabs addicted to pcp or something?
>>280182
>El Greco, Calderón, Velázquez, Cervantes
>B-List
>Say, while posting a list of literally whos (except for Averoes)
>>280182
>calls the masters of classical art and the father of the modern european novel B-list artists
>posts a bunch of irrelevant literally whos dwarfed by Europeans philosophers and scientists such as Galilei and Copernicus
You're a turk aren't you.
I think the Roman Church was a lot smarter than Muhammad in promoting and cultivating the arts rather than be a bitter shitposting robot about it.
>>280144
>What did Spain learn under muslims? How to kill people better for eating what you don't like? Where are the great muslim Spanish painters, playwrighters, and musicians?
Spain before and after Moorish rule had its big names. For whatever its worth, the only Spaniard pictured in Raphael's 'School of Athens' is Averroes.
>>280214
>>posts a bunch of irrelevant literally whos dwarfed by Europeans philosophers and scientists such as Galilei and Copernicus
Neither were contemporaries to the list he gave, whereas you'd have a fight on your hands if you wanted to say any of the names mentioned by >>280212 were the best in Europe in the 15th-17th centuries.
>>280259
Jus think that masterpiece wouldn't exist if islam had spread throughout Europe.
>>280287
No alt-history nonsense, please.
>>280281
He already lost when he implied art is irrelevant and useless and that those names are B-list.
>>279530
>The Middle East has always been a shithole behind the times compared to Europe
Please read a history book. Pre-Age of Discovery it was decidedly the other way round.
Does anybody else find it ironic that, throughout Europe's golden age, their actions aligned far more closely with Muhammed than Jesus? You'd be hard-pressed to find a religion less suitable to Europe than Christianity, or more suitable than Islam. Too bad it emerged too late to be Western.
>>280311
To clarify because 4chan loves to jump and attack minimal details, claiming that beats the whole point of a post: I'm not saying that Fuenteovejuna was written by Cervantes here.
>>280315
>Does anybody else find it ironic that, throughout Europe's golden age, their actions aligned far more closely with Muhammed than Jesus?
How were they more like Muhammad?
>>280311
>And Fuenteovejuna is better than anything Shakespeare ever wrote
MOTHERFUCKER
DON'T MAKE ME MAKE YOU PAY YOUR DEBTS
>>280298
>He already lost when he implied art is irrelevant and useless
Well, compared to science and philosophy, it is.
>>280334
Don't get butthurt, it's the truth. You probably don't even know what that is or who wrote it, though.
>>280326
Forging empires through conquest. Jesus was effectively pacifist, preaching to turn the other cheek and so on. Muhammed, on the other hand, was quite clear as to what Islam needed to do; expand, violently if necessary, and impose their laws on all the territories they could. Islam is inherently imperialist, as was Europe. Match made in heaven, if only Muhammed had instead been Björn.
>>280315
>You'd be hard-pressed to find a religion less suitable to Europe than Christianity, or more suitable than Islam.
>more suitable than islam
>islam says women do not make good rulers
>European queens prove it wrong
>islam says not to eat pork and drink alcohol
>Europe thrives on pork meat such as italian prosciutto, English bacon, Spanish Jamon Serrano, and local beer/spirits/wine
>islam says not to draw pictures of living beings
>European art excels at the human figure
>islam says to destroy musical instruments
>European musicians excel at making and playing music
>islam says to women have to cover up and stay in the kitchen
>European women show their hair and body and dress fashionably, and actively participate in the public life, in government, in working, in entertainment, and in the learning of all sciences and arts
>islam says the wife is a sexual slave to the husband
>European women champion women's rights since the times of Sappho and Aspasia
How is islam most suitable for Europe again?
>>280340
That's because you're a retard who does not understand humanism and philosophy, which emphatizes the importance of the arts for humanity.
>>280360
But Muhammad's "Empire" was a pair of city-states with treaties of alliance with its neighbors. He imposed no imperial bureaucracy even on his own state, and when he died it all fell apart and needed to be conquered by force. The Umayyads, who developed the Imperialist doctrines of Islam, adopted all of their stylings from the Byzantines and Sassanids.
Europe already had a model for Imperial religion and it was the ERE, and thereafter the HRE.
Besides, even among Muslim sultans and emirs and even Caliphs, the model of state and rulership they followed was Solomon.
>>280362
Y'know, the great thing about atheism is that other people have already laid out the Bible's position on gender equality for me: http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm
Plus music isn't outright banned in Islam, it depends on what the music is for: http://www.imranhosein.org/faq/59-general/224-is-music-allowed-in-islam.html
Pork is prohibited in both the Quran and the Bible, thus making it irrelevant as a comparison.
>>280383
>To understand the importance of art, you need philosophy
>Art is thus more important than philosophy
>>280360
But Christianity is what allowed those empires to prosper rather than turn into muslim shitholes.
>>280397
They are on equal standing and cannot be complete without the other.
>>280394
>I don't know what the New Testament is
>>280362
>>European queens prove it wrong
Most European monarchies believed women did not make good rulers however. Those that allowed female rulers did so out of necessity to keep a stable succession and resist unwanted pretenders. The French were big on male-only rule.
>islam says to women have to cover up and stay in the kitchen
>European women show their hair and body and dress fashionably, and actively participate in the public life, in government, in working, in entertainment, and in the learning of all sciences and arts
Similarly, that's not a proposition most Europeans throughout history disagreed with. And the Abbasid Caliphate did have its own period with women in public life, education, entertainment, etc.
>>280394
Can you post credible sources and not sketchy websites of unverified veridicity?
>Pork is prohibited in both the Quran and the Bible
Old testament a shit, that's why we declared the Bible a bunch of metaphors and only selected the most sensible passages out of it. Anyone who wants to forbid bacon deserves death.
>music isn't outright banned in Islam, it depends on what the music is for
Still incompatible with European culture.
>>280400
>But Christianity is what allowed those empires to prosper
Really? Because Rome was doing pretty damn well before it. I think you'll find that more than anything else, the success or failure of a region depends on trade routes and geography. Before the development of long-term shipping which placed Europe at the heart of civilization, the Middle East (in fact, the East in general) was more advanced and more civilized. Europe could just as well have risen under Islam. For all that Christianity is thought of as Western, it started with a Jewish Arab in Palestine.
>>280419
>Old testament a shit, that's why we declared the Bible a bunch of metaphors and only selected the most sensible passages out of it
So, why wouldn't have Islamic Europe also decided that certain inconvenient passages could be glossed over? Heck, isn't that what Nicaea et al were about? Picking and choosing what scripture was most politically convenient?
>>280414
That's irrelevant, since those European queens that did rule such as Elizabeth I proved excellent at their job, therefore proving Muhammad wrong.
>The French were big on male-only rule
Where's the French monarchy now and where's the English one?
>that's not a proposition most Europeans throughout history disagreed with
I must contend that many did disagree with it though, which is why Europe has women saints, writers, artists, philosophers, scientists, etc. while islam has not.
>>280443
>therefore proving Muhammad wrong
see >>279742
>>280443
>I must contend that many did disagree with it though, which is why Europe has women saints, writers, artists, philosophers, scientists, etc. while islam has not.
Islam did have women saints, poets, theologians, etc. It also had warrior women and a few queens.
Much like the English crown, Elizabeth and Victoria were atypical in world history, where most people generally agreed that they did not want a woman to rule over them.
>>280425
>Europe could just as well have risen under Islam.
Considering all the "Shit Muhammad said" that's been posted earlier: no.
>it started with a Jewish Arab in Palestine.
>Jews
>Arab
Jews are jews, arabs are arabs.
>>280441
>So, why wouldn't have Islamic Europe also decided that certain inconvenient passages could be glossed over?
Because the centre of power in islam is in Arabia, not in Europe. Jerusalem was important but more important is Rome. In islam it would have been Mecca, which means Europeans would have been still subjugated to the opinions of arabs and you've seen how that turned out.
>>280472
>Considering all the "Shit Muhammad said" that's been posted earlier: no.
In the Ottoman Empire, there were periodic clashes between Turkish Sufis and Syrian fundamentalists. Geography and culture would have guaranteed a growing schism and divide between religious outlooks, just like it did first between Catholics and Orthodox, and then between Catholics and Protestants.
>>280470
>most people generally agreed that they did not want a woman to rule over them
Yet when they got one most are remembered as beloved and great queens.
>>280441
>So, why wouldn't have Islamic Europe also decided that certain inconvenient passages could be glossed over?
Because the Koran is the literal word of God. Not a bunch of divinely inspired odd stuff written by people, fallible ones.
It is LITERALLY the word of God. Not a lot of room for interpretation and picking&choosing there.
>Heck, isn't that what Nicaea et al were about? Picking and choosing what scripture was most politically convenient?
Not at all, the Biblical canon was mostly complete when the First Council of Nicaea was called, it was more about the problem of Trinitas and the role of Jesus.
>>280503
Yes, because they had the skill and guile to secure their rule against those who would have replaced them with a man.
>>280507
>Because the Koran is the literal word of God. Not a bunch of divinely inspired odd stuff written by people, fallible ones.
This distinction did not exist for the Bible you know, which was still considered the word of God and infallible.
>In the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati, a dialogue between a recent Christian convert and several Jews, one participant writes that his brother "wrote to [him] saying that a deceiving prophet has appeared amidst the Saracens". Another participant in the Doctrina replies about Muhammad: "He is deceiving. For do prophets come with sword and chariot?, …[Y]ou will discover nothing true from the said prophet except human bloodshed".[5]
>>280511
Which proves Muhammad's words wrong. Though I'll give him the benefit of doubt and say all the verses posted ITT are a bunch of fiction made up the ancient version of /r9k/ shitposters.
>>280472
>Because the centre of power in islam is in Arabia, not in Europe
Yes, because Islam is popular in Arabia and not in Europe. Had it taken off in Europe instead, the power base would be European for the same reason Christianity today isn't centred on Palestine.
>Jerusalem was important but more important is Rome
So why wouldn't this also happen with Mecca and Rome? Again, you're employing a double standard
>which means Europeans would have been still subjugated to the opinions of arabs
Apart from the same double-standard argument, and the fact that Christianity had Eastern and Western churches without Europe being subjugated, it was inevitable that world power would've swung to Europe for the same reasons it did under Christianity, which had nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with geography and shipbuilding technology.
>>280522
>Which proves Muhammad's words wrong
It also proves the word of the Bible equally wrong.
>>280515
That's not true at all, Christian theologians as early as Augustine wrote (in De Genesi ad Litteram) that the Bible can and should be interpreted in various ways as a way of understanding between Jews and Christians, and that most of early Genesis should be read metaphorically.
>>280517
>[Y]ou will discover nothing true from the said prophet except human bloodshed".[5]
It's just like ISIS today.
>>280529
And the Quran had its own history of esoteric and mystical interpretations, with entire genres dedicated to arguing the level of literal or metaphorical meaning of individual words.
>>280536
And that was written in 634.
>>280540
If you are referring to Ta'wil, that's in no way comparable with Biblical exegesis, it's a search for (hidden, or additional) meaning within the conventional interpretation.
>"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached"
t. Manuel II.
Has anyone here read Voltaire's play about Muhammed?
If so, is it good? I've only read Candide so far.
>>280559
Tawil is one aspect, the Tafsir the other, and both combined are certainly comparable.
>>280522
>Though I'll give him the benefit of doubt and say all the verses posted ITT are a bunch of fiction made up the ancient version of /r9k/ shitposters.
It's very likely something like this happened. The rule about women entering the mosque separately and taking up a different spot behind the men only comes from other mean bitching to Muhammad about how he let women walk in through the front.
>>280425
>Jewish Arab
Is this a maymay or are you just retarded?
>>280545
there's a ton of similar references from that period apparently. they are all similarly flattering:
>[From a letter to Peter, governor of Numidia, then in Alexandria, indicating the importance of prayer at this time, between 634 and 640.]
>For indeed, what is more dire than the evils which today afflict the world? What is more terrible for the discerning than the unfolding events? What is more pitiable and frightening for those who endure them? To see a barbarous people of the desert overrunning another's lands as though they were their own; to see civilization itself being ravaged by wild and untamed beasts whose form alone is human. (Maximus, Ep. 14, PG 91, 533-44 [pp. 77-78])
http://www.christianorigins.com/islamrefs.html
>>279688
kek
>>280600
Tafsir usually still gives an "interpretation" from already accepted meaning, it's more esoteric than exoteric, I would not agree that it permits the variety and, for lack of better word, openness of interpretation (for better or worse, of course) that Biblical scholarship does, for firstly the aforementioned literal sense of the Koran as it was dictated by Gabriel directly and secondly the lack of arguable translations throughout the times.
>>280629
I bet there's a row of Byzantine Emperors in Heaven following whatever shit ISIS is doing and despairing.
>>279973
very interesting. thanks for posting.
it shows how every religion is not a segregated reality but has gained from other cultures. lots of christian cults show clear signs of paganism. for some people this is not coherent but I think is cool
>>280664
Christianity took stuff like the pagan tradition of exchanging gifts on the period that coincides with Christmas though, islam took "kill and enslave all those who disagree with me."
>be epileptic
>Ali been making fun of me all the time
>fucking hell is it hot
>I'll show them, I'll show them all
>fuck here it comes
OH ALLAH ANOTHER VISION
HELLO GABRIEL
I AM TWITCHING WITH REVELATION INDEED
>>280071
>>280111
spain and sicily under the arabs where the most advanced countries in Europe. Agriculture, astronomy, industry and philosophy were absolutely the most advanced in Euope. They brought paper and gunpowder centuries before Europe.
Source: Chakrabarty, the Provincialization of Europe; Jack Goody, The theft of history
>>280685
I'm still glad they returned under europeans knowing european history and looking at arabs now.
>>280696
Europe was always destined to take over from the East in due time.
>>280685
m8,
First of all, the invasion of Iberia was done mostly by Berbers. Second of all, they were greatly advanced because they found all the Roman libraries containing Greek and Roman knowledge.
And of course, they are going to be more advanced if Yuropoors are busy being invaded from all sides by Scandinavians, G*rmans, Muslims themselves plus all the infighting resulting from the mega collapse of the Empire.
And what more, you have a selective definition of Europe. Because the Greeks//Byzantines were ahead of the Muslim world in a great deal of fields such as architectures and chemistry.
Not to shit on their civilization, but the Islamic golden age is a bit overhyped.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y
I recommend this video
>>279903
cuz dogs don't sweat, they're nasty by nature, and easy for demons to possess them.
>>280071
she's not even human idiotta
>>280224
The church literally outlawed chords
>>280080
that video
>>279324
Is that image of muhamad or of one of those caliphs?
Muslims go apeshit over depictions of muhhamad and yet there was medieval islamic art depicting him. Why is that? Is it all muslims reacting like that or just those wahhabi fucknuts?
>>279324
A warmongering theocrat.
You can't really discuss Islam in theological sense. I mean, you can, but it's pointless.
Religion in reality is shaped by it's believers. So how they interpret religion is what matters.
And fact is, most of Muslims today interpret it in a highly restrictive way which is simply incompatible with contemporary European societies which have it's roots in Christianity. Quranist movement is compatible with European society, but mainstream Sunni and Shia simply aren't.
>>279332
> Reading the Qur'an for info on Muhammad
Read the hadiths you kuffar
Muhammad is by far the most based historical figure on earth. People are just to butthurt to admit it because of a bunch of ruined western european countries and a bunch of dead frogs.
>>279532
>Mecca at the time was a multicultural melting pot
>mfw Muhammad was /pol/ the whole time
>>280040
>Muhammad trolled keks
My sides
>>279568
Jesus christ. Please tell me you don't use the word "islamphobia"
>>282933
It is probably made by a Shia muslim since they think it's acceptable. Most muslims dont really care about it desu
>>279532
>He was a small time merchant in Mecca for years.
Not really. His wife was one of the richest women in Arabia at the time and he had earned a very good reputation among the Arabs for how he conducted business. He and his wife spent the vast majority of their fortune trying to finance their religious movement.
He's been hailed as one of the forefathers of what we normally understand to be capitalism because he actually forbade a lot of practices that were common in the pagan world, like arbitrarily fixing the prices of goods in the markets.
>So he retreated to Medina, became a bandit, raiding various caravans
You left out the part where the Meccans killed some of his followers, tried to kill him, and then planned on selling all the possessions they left behind in Syria. It was his angry followers who pressured him to do something about it and that's when he said a revelation came down to him justifying war. For the most part the Christian tribes stayed out of it and backed or didn't oppose him. At least half of the Jewish tribes sided with the pagans.
>>282933
>>283755
such images became more popular among the Shia due to cultural and theological reasons. But everybody did it to some extent. Most of the early medieval depictions of Muhammad including those that show the face are by Sunnis drawing from Byzantine and Asian artistic traditions such as those brought to the Islamic world after the mongols, which Persians later perfected into the early modern art of the miniature. In fact, when the Safavids took over Iran, we actually see an increase in representational art of animals and human beings, but a decline in the depictions of Muhammad's face and the opting for covering his face with a sheet, which wasn't because of legal restriction because in principle some might have no objection but was nonetheless meant to symbolize his seeing with the heart and mind's eye. One thing the Shi'a of Iran did though was they helped to better popularize such styles of painting because artists began losing royal patronage and so their art was no longer being used exclusively for decorated books. Artists began doing single tapestries using common motifs drawn from Iranian-Islamic mysticism and everyday middle class life
Indian Sufis, who were often of Shi'ite inclination also desired icons for religious purposes though mostly of Ali and other secondary figures. And in the 19th century, we begin to see stronger Western influences in the Shi'ite artistic world that aren't as prominent in say Ottoman land, though similar developments were still happening there. There's also the introduction of printing to Qajar Iran and the further development of coffee and tea house paintings catering to poor and middle class tastes, especially scenes from the lives of the Imams and the Shahnameh. Though more readily available portraits of Muhammad with face don't appear until a bit later.
References:
Islamic Art and Architecture by Robert Hillenbrand
Art and Material Culture of Iranian Shi'ism by Pedram Khosronejad
>>283915
I can't recall how much the sheet was used before 1500, but the reason for its prominence in the Shi'ite world was because it made the art less divisive and sensible to both liberal and more restrictive tastes while carrying profound meaning for all.
>>279568
>>283531
Book 64 Hadith 86:
Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib:
Allah's Apostle sent some men from the Ansar to ((kill) Abu Rafi`, the Jew, and appointed `Abdullah bin Atik as their leader. Abu Rafi` used to hurt Allah's Apostle and help his enemies against him. He lived in his castle in the land of Hijaz. When those men approached (the castle) after the sun had set and the people had brought back their livestock to their homes. `Abdullah (bin Atik) said to his companions, "Sit down at your places. I am going, and I will try to play a trick on the gate-keeper so that I may enter (the castle)." So `Abdullah proceeded towards the castle, and when he approached the gate, he covered himself with his clothes, pretending to answer the call of nature. The people had gone in, and the gate-keeper (considered `Abdullah as one of the castle's servants) addressing him saying, "O Allah's Servant! Enter if you wish, for I want to close the gate." `Abdullah added in his story, "So I went in (the castle) and hid myself. When the people got inside, the gate-keeper closed the gate and hung the keys on a fixed wooden peg. I got up and took the keys and opened the gate. Some people were staying late at night with Abu Rafi` for a pleasant night chat in a room of his. When his companions of nightly entertainment went away, I ascended to him, and whenever I opened a door, I closed it from inside. I said to myself, 'Should these people discover my presence, they will not be able to catch me till I have killed him.' So I reached him and found him sleeping in a dark house amidst his family, I could not recognize his location in the house. So I shouted, 'O Abu Rafi`!' Abu Rafi` said, 'Who is it?' I proceeded towards the source of the voice and hit him with the sword, and because of my perplexity, I could not kill him. He cried loudly, and I came out of the house and waited for a while, and then went to him again and said, 'What is this voice, O Abu Rafi`? (continued)
>>283972
"...He said, 'Woe to your mother! A man in my house has hit me with a sword! I again hit him severely but I did not kill him. Then I drove the point of the sword into his belly (and pressed it through) till it touched his back, and I realized that I have killed him. I then opened the doors one by one till I reached the staircase, and thinking that I had reached the ground, I stepped out and fell down and got my leg broken in a moonlit night. I tied my leg with a turban and proceeded on till I sat at the gate, and said, 'I will not go out tonight till I know that I have killed him.' So, when (early in the morning) the cock crowed, the announcer of the casualty stood on the wall saying, 'I announce the death of Abu Rafi`, the merchant of Hijaz. Thereupon I went to my companions and said, 'Let us save ourselves, for Allah has killed Abu Rafi`,' So I (along with my companions proceeded and) went to the Prophet and described the whole story to him. "He said, 'Stretch out your (broken) leg. I stretched it out and he rubbed it and it became All right as if I had never had any ailment whatsoever."
>>283972
>>283989
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_al-Rafi_ibn_Abu_al-Huqayq
>Abu al-Rafi ibn Abu al-Huqayq was a chieftain of the Jewish tribes of the Khaybar oasis. When Al-Huqayq approached neighbouring tribes to raise an army to attack Muslims,[1][2] they assassinated him, aided by an Arab who spoke a Jewish dialect.[3] His brothers the famous poets Al-Rabi ibn Abu al-Huqayq and Sallam ibn Abu al-Huqayq were also assassinated at Muhammad's orders.
>He succeeded Huyayy ibn Akhtab who was killed in 627 CE alongside Banu Qurayza. He was succeeded by Usayr ibn Zarim.
>>280772
Not the guy you were replying to but
>they were greatly advanced because they found all the Roman libraries containing Greek and Roman knowledge.
Yes, they built on the discoveries of others, like any advanced civilization.
>And of course, they are going to be more advanced if Yuropoors are busy being invaded from all sides by Scandinavians, G*rmans, Muslims themselves plus all the infighting resulting from the mega collapse of the Empire.
Yes, europe was in a decline at this period, and subsequently the islamic world was ahead for a few centuries. I wouldn't really attribute either of these things to "superiority" of one or the other, I think the dynamics of civilizations mean that all large empires eventually collapse, and different ethnicities rise and fall all of the time.
>And what more, you have a selective definition of Europe. Because the Greeks//Byzantines were ahead of the Muslim world in a great deal of fields such as architectures and chemistry.
Interesting, I don't really know much about the byzantines. Do you have more info on how they were ahead in this period? I'd like to point out that they never managed to reconquer a significant amount of the land they lost to the arabs.
>Not to shit on their civilization, but the Islamic golden age is a bit overhyped.
In what way? I barely hear anything about it. Care to link / point out who is hyping it? Or do you mean historically?
>>279585
>Interpretation this literal
If you read the bible like that you'd think christians aren't supposed to wear clothes made from more than one kind of fabric etc
>>284392
The koran is meant to be taken literally as it's the infallible word of god. That's what muslims say.
>>284869
>>279642
No, it's let's kill people who might be dissidents, because we know what happens to empires without stability.
>>282933
What's more important is his stance on animu grills.
>>285253
So islam is not a religion of peace, it's an oppressive totalitarian regime that kills people for the most innocent of things. Disgusting. Such evil should not be allowed to exist.
>>285301
Pictures are fordidden.
>>285303
>in the context of the time
>>285253
That only encourages rebellion to fight such a disgusting injustice.
Also: one is not a dissidentwhen you force your views on them, since they never agreed with you in the first place. All you do is confirm his opinion that you are tyrant to kill.
>>283201
kuffar is plural you kafir
>>285334
This. Islam is all the worst of humans made into religion.
>>285319
It's not any different now. It's still an oppressive totalitarian thought regime that kills people for the most innocent of things and shouldn't be allowed to exist.
>>285359
Whatever you say.
>>285100
all those verses he cited has never been abrogated, so they still count
>>285301
He was a huge fan of lolis, so he guess he would have accepted it
>>285346
Kefír XD
>>285346
>arguing over transliterated constructions
