What is unique about European civilization?
>>278243
WHICH ONE?
>>278243
The level of violence, oppression, sexism, racism, exploitation, and genocide that has emerged out of it.
Industrial Revolution
Abolition of slavery
>>278266
Are you implying European civilization was created in the 1700s?
>>278276
No. Are you implying European civilization ended in the 1700's?
>>278276
Well Europe was chimpout central for a long time, the Industrial Revolution changed that.
>>278243
Industrialization, although admittedly once one they discovered it they didn't exactly wait around for everyone else to have a chance to develop.
>>278306
>once one they discovered it they didn't exactly wait around for everyone else to have a chance to develop.
Why would we?
Why would anyone?
>n every part, then, we find this character of variety to prevail in modern civilization. It has undoubtedly brought with it this inconvenience, that when we consider separately any particular development of the human mind in literature, in the arts, in any of the ways in which human intelligence may go forward, we shall generally find it inferior to the corresponding development in the civilization [32] of antiquity; but, as a set-off to this, when we regard it as a whole, European civilization appears incomparably more rich and diversified: if each particular fruit has not attained the same perfection, it has ripened an infinitely greater variety. Again, European civilization has now endured fifteen centuries, and in all that time it has been in a state of progression.* It may be true that it has not advanced so rapidly as the Greek; but, catching new impulses at every stop, it is still advancing. An unbounded career is open before it; and from day to day it presses forward to the race with increasing rapidity, because increased freedom attends upon all its movements. While in other civilizations the exclusive domination, or at least the excessive preponderance of a single principle, of a single form, led to tyranny, in modern Europe the diversity of the elements of social order, the incapability of any one to exclude the rest, gave birth to the liberty which now prevails. The inability of the various principles to exterminate one another compelled each to endure the others, made it necessary for them to live in common, for them to enter into a sort of mutual understanding. Each consented to have only that part of civilization which fell to its share. Thus, while everywhere else the predominance of one principle [33] has produced tyranny, the variety of elements of European civilization, and the constant warfare in which they have been engaged, have given birth in Europe to that liberty which we prize so dearly.
etc etc etc
http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/2244
>>278266
Non-Western countries abolished slavery too.
>>278288
>1848-49 revolutions
>Franco-Prussian war
>WW1
>Russian civil war
>WW2
>Balkan wars
Yeah sure.
>>278243
>What is unique about European civilization?
Diversity. Almost all other great civilizations have been mono-cultural and closed.
>>278243
Nothing is unique to any one culture, "nihil sub sole novum," and all that.
But I think the thing that makes the West stand out is the focus on individualism. Basically, most civilization focus on the community and the nation above the individual or the family; European civilizations tend to focus on the individual and the family first and then the community.
These are not ideas unique to the west, but they are it's most defining feature in my humble opinion.
>>278243
Since the end of the Middle Ages, it has been dominating the world.
>>278263
this guy's right--the west produced less of all these things relative to any other civilization.
It was the first civilization to do everything of note the past 500 years. That's something.
If everything invented by Westerners suddenly disappeared you'd probably be sitting in an empty field. If everything invented my non-Westeners did the same, would you even notice?
>>278507
>Be in toilet.
>Reach for toilet paper.
>Its not there
>Because the Chinese did not invent paper.
Enjoy your Roman ass-sponge. That was used earlier by someone else btw.
>>278529
At least I'm not wasting paper.
>>278280
No, but it started to fall.
>>278318
My point is that after Europe industrialized and began colonizing the world, civilizations stopped developing separately, so it is hard to say if China would have industrialized on its own or not, because they never had a chance.
>>278529
Wet sponge is much superior to a paper when it comes to ass wiping. Paper is just cheaper to make.
>>278933
China's civilization is about a thousand years older than Europe's. They had plenty of chance.
>>278288
The Giest of the european formed well before the 19th century. Also the real chimpout in History was done by the Mongols.
>>278243
Queens?
No idea what kind of shit went on in sub-Saharan Africa or the American continent but it seems that one the Eurasian continent Europeans were one of the few with Queens.
I am not entirely sure though and I hope we got some folks with more knowledge on non European cultures.
>>278984
Please be trolling.
Liberal Democracy
>>278992
I can't name a single Middle Eastern, Japanese or Chinese Queen the past 1500 years.
Though I reckon the Chinese might have had a few empresses.
>>279016
>Is this bait?
Nope.
the variety of brewed alcoholic beverages
>>278959
No, not that kind of chance, the kind of chance where one waits and sees if another culture will adopt an idea from elsewhere.
Like the difference between everyone adopting paper after China did, and if China had then conquered all of Eurasia and imposed Chinese papermaking for Chinese script and bureaucracy.
>>278243
Wouldn't it be capitalism?
>>278507
chinese invented movable type which was then adapted by gutenberg
>>279056
Capitalism isn't unique to Europe.
>>278507
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions
>>279021
No reply...
>>278243
it's a uniquely self critical society.
>>279053
Why would you wait when you have something that gives you such a dramatic upper hand?
I don't get why you seem to think international politics has some sort of concept of fair play.
Germany exported the printing press to everywhere that would buy it. They didn't wait and see what England would do, they struck right away.
>>278243
It happened in Europe
>>278266
India usually did not have slavery.
>>279189
>inb4 caste system is worse than slavery/is slavery.
>>279016
Brother I think it is not the goat-fuckers, rather it is YOU who has been drinking the unmixed wine of freedom.
>>279189
>did not have slavery
So they never abolish slavery.
>did not have slavery =/= Abolition of slavery
>>279030
I like it. Favorite answer ITT.
There is no "European civilisation".
There have been several civilisations that were partially in Europe, none of which covered the whole continent, including the Greco-Roman civilisation and Western civilisation.
The term "Europe" is totally meaningless and should be erased from the history books.
>>279805
good bait senpai
>>279828
I can't believe I still have to argue against conceptions of history that have been discredited a century ago on a board called /his/.
>>278263
those issues are typical complaints from the lesser achievers when discussing the superior culture
rest assured if any other "color" besides white had been at the top of the racial power totem pole thruout history
the results would have been the same
>>279846
being dense and sadistically autistic isn't an argument
>>279872
>thinks "good bait senpai" is an argument
>>279828
Tell me one thing that Western Europe has in common with Belarus or Bulgaria that would justify the existence of a common "European civilisation".
>>278263
I thought we were talking about european civilizations not asian
>>279805
It's more useful than "Asia" and "Africa"
>>279912
Yeah and vomit is tastier than shit, not sure where you're going with this.
the civilization that was so relevant it got its own arbitrary continent
>>279899
Christianity, civil law, Indo-European languages, relative geographical vicinity and most importantly early adoption of those(compared to say, the adoption of civil law in some african country).
Now, tell me a good reason why a person with X amount of hair isn't bald.
It doesn't have to be white or black, that doesn't mean you can't talk about an "European" civilization as a whole. Surely Bulgaria wouldn't have the same "Europeanness" as France, but still.
>>279957
>Christianity
Half the world is Christian and Christianity comes from the Middle East.
>civil law
The entire world uses civil law except for some Muslim or Anglo countries. You're seriously saying we share a civilisation with Japan but not with Britain?
>Indo-European languages
So Indians, Iranians, Kurds are European now?
What purpose can this absurd concept of "European civilisation" possibly serve?
There was a Greco-Roman civilisation that was centered on the Mediterranean and that never touched most of Germany or Scandinavia or Russia, and which died almost 2000 years ago. There is a Western civilisation that is centered on Western Europe and to which the rest of Europe has not contributed anything significant. These are useful concepts. "European civilisation" is about as useful as an "Asian civilisation" that would mix China, India, and Mesopotamia.
>>280011
You left behind the most important part, to have adopted the concept relatively early in order to make it a core concept.
It's the bunch of characteristic that you have to consider, not the singular ones.
So for instance, Indians, Iranians and Kurds, while indo-European speaking, lack Christianity, and religion is probably only second to language in defining a culture, and I'm sure they lack plenty of other core European characteristic.
The best analogy for all of this would be unsupervised cluster analysis. Pick enough data and you are probably going to see an European cluster emerge almost clearly, with maybe some indecision on certain quasi-European countries.
In practice, people with no autism have no problem understanding what countries are European, just like they have no problems with sorites of the sort.
>Individualism
>Rule of law
>Nature seen as enemy to be subjugated
>>280053
>You left behind the most important part, to have adopted the concept relatively early in order to make it a core concept.
OK let's look at who adopted what earliest:
- Christianity was adopted in the Middle East first, and North Africa was Christian 600 years before the Germans, over a thousand years before the Baltics.
- Civil law was created in France in the 19th century, and that's also when it spread to the whole world, not just Europe.
- Indo-Europeans reached India long before they made it to Western Europe.
Looks like Europe ranks pretty low in your definition of "Europeaness".
>religion is probably only second to language in defining a culture
So Hungary, Finland, and the Basque country are not part of this European civilisation I take it.
Why do you insist in fabricating such an obviously failed concept when there already exists a perfectly working model?
>>278243
Its location.
>>280113
>- Christianity was adopted in the Middle East first, and North Africa was Christian
I cry everitim
>>278263
Is this what the european nations work to eradicate those worldwide?
>>280113
>Christianity was adopted in the Middle East first, and North Africa was Christian 600 years before the Germans, over a thousand years before the Baltics.
Too bad they dropped it, nice try.
>Civil law was created in France in the 19th century, and that's also when it spread to the whole world, not just Europe.
It didn't arise in a vacuum though, take Roman law if you want then.
>Indo-Europeans reached India long before they made it to Western Europe.
Cool, that's one who is in common.
>So Hungary, Finland, and the Basque country are not part of this European civilisation I take it.
Nice strawman, I said importance, not defining. Indeed, they lack a very basic thing in common with other Europeans, but they make up for that with other things.
>Why do you insist in fabricating such an obviously failed concept when there already exists a perfectly working model?
It isn't failed, except for special snowflakes like you whose blood boils everytime someone wants to talk about a pan-European identity, am I right?
>>280143
>Too bad they dropped it, nice try.
So the Middle East and Africa were part of European civilisation, but then stopped? Are you really not seeing how absurd this is?
>It didn't arise in a vacuum though, take Roman law if you want then.
It basically did, it was created by Napoleon. Ancient Romans didn't have civil law, the term "Roman law" refers to Justinian's codex which was never really used anywhere.
>but they make up for that with other things
Like what? Christianity? So they're exactly as "European" as Copts or other Middle Eastern Christians.
>pan-European identity
Let me guess, you're either an East European trying to associate with Western civilisation, or a "white nationalist", and that's why you're so emotionally attached to this obviously ridiculous Frankenstein concept of "European civilisation".
>>280198
>So the Middle East and Africa were part of European civilisation, but then stopped? Are you really not seeing how absurd this is?
Nowadays the could've been if things turned out differently. We are discussion what nowadays can be considered "European", not in this past.
Germany could very well turn into a non-European country if the country vastly changes in the coming years.
You keep repeating the same shit I addressed elsewhere(that no single characteristics are defining), so I won't address those again.
Also, I haven't pointed out all possible characteristics, just the most blatant ones.
I'm arguing about it because you are literally arguing a sorite(that we can't easily pinpoint "European" on the spot, and that indeed it's a spectrum) as if it has any importance in practice.
>>280239
Your concept is not defined by any characteristics or by any combination of characteristics, it's not defined by anything at all. The fact is Europe has nothing in common culturally that it doesn't also have in common with places outside Europe, we've established this pretty clearly by now. It is not a cultural entity in any way.
You yourself mentioned pan-Europeanism which makes it obvious that your motives are political rather than intellectual honesty. In that case I'd suggest you look at the damage the delusional concept of "Europe" has done to Russia, which has for centuries been stuck in an internal conflict over its identity, trying to force itself into a "European civilisation" (which equates to Western cultural imperialism on the East) despite clearly belonging to a nascent civilisation of its own. This has brought Russia nothing but resentment and hatred for the West.
Trying to force non-existent entities through sheer wishful thinking cannot possibly work and only leads to disaster, intellectual honesty is always the better path.
>>278243
It's the only good one.
Our awareness of our own fallibility
>>280143
>It isn't failed, except for special snowflakes like you whose blood boils everytime someone wants to talk about a pan-European identity, am I right?
A real "pan european identity has never existed except in some texts that were little more than academic excercises. Just a hundred years ago all European nations still saw each other as very alien, just let me remind you the amount of demonization and very real attrocities that happened in WW1.
It's only been after WW2 and thanks in a big part to the influence of the US and the fear of communism that Europeans finally let their harsh tribalism and rivalry go away little by little. So yeah, it wasn't until they realized their countries would become irrelevant compared to the behemoths that America and the USSR were becoming.
>>278243
It's the only surviving civilization worthy of the name.
Probably the best civilization in the world imo, asians are 2nd
>>278266
>Industrial Revolution
This. This is what skyrocketed European/Western/Greco-Roman/Christian Civilization so ahead of the rest of the world. A real game changer.
Not that it wasn't already ahead, it's just now it was so ahead that it cast a shadow on the rest of the world.
>European civilization
Stop this shit.
Aegean (Minoan/Mycenaean), Greco-Roman, Orthodox, and Western civilizations are all completely different. They're related to each other, but not any more than they are to Islamic or Mesopotamian civilization. European civilization is an anachronism pushing a modern pan-European identity onto the past which didn't exist before the 18th-19th centuries. Europe shares much in common today, but these things absolutely did not exist before modern times. Go back to 1500 AD and you'd find Greece and Russia more closely related to the likes of Armenia and Ethiopia than to Italy and France.
The idea of a historical Europe needs to just fucking die already. If you actually believe this shit you either have no understanding of European civilizations beyond the West or, more likely, you know nothing about Europe's context within the rest of the world.
>>279805
>roman empire
>christianity
>nation states
etc.
>>282711
>Aegean (Minoan/Mycenaean), Greco-Roman, Orthodox, and Western civilizations are all completely different.
No. Mionan/Myceanean is a predecessor to Greco-Roman civilization. Greco-Roman civilization is the civilization you are currently part of.
There were some aesthetic differences in the middle ages and renaissance between the greco-slavic east and latin-german west but that ended in the 1700s.
>>280053
>In practice, people with no autism have no problem understanding what countries are European, just like they have no problems with sorites of the sort.
Is Russia European?
>>280074
>>Nature seen as enemy to be subjugated
Literally not true for much of medieval and romantic culture. Europeans have a complex and ambivalent relation with nature.
>>282724
Yes.
>>282711
>Aegean (Minoan/Mycenaean), Greco-Roman, Orthodox
Even though none of those existed at the same time as the others
Also this
>Go back to 1500 AD and you'd find Greece and Russia more closely related to the likes of Armenia and Ethiopia than to Italy and France.
is nonsense.
>>282728
Why? And don't fucking say christianity. I'm sick of the religious reductionism of people on this board.
>>282743
>core population is in the european part
>capital is in the european part
>culturally european
>historically was confined to it's european parts but later spread through conquest and got it's current shape
saying it's not european is like saying the uk wasn't european when it was an empire, it makes no sense whatsoever.
>>282722Are you actually this fucking dense? Holy shit, no. Aegean civilization was not the predecessor to Greco-Roman civilization, it died with the Bronze Age Collapse. It left behind some myths and legends, but besides that had no lasting impact on Archaic Greece. Archaic Greek civilization was born from the interaction of the Dark Age Greeks and the Phoenicians who brought Egyptian/Mesopotamian culture with them, including writing and art. This then grew into Greco-Roman civilization, which later collapsed and split into three new civilizations; Western, Orthodox, and Islamic. Each one was a continuation of Greco-Roman civilization (don't fucking say Islam wasn't) but went on a different direction. These weren't just fucking 'aesthetic differences', holy fuck.
Orthodox civilization was the most direct continuation of Rome in Byzantium, and eventually gave rise to Russia which replaced Greece as the center of it's civilization. Western civilization was born of the Migration Period, the monasteries of the British Isles, and the Frankish kingdoms, eventually giving rise to the Carolingian and 12th century Renaissances. At first it was similar to Orthodoxy but grew in a completely different direction. Islam was born in Arabia, but Islamic civilization was born when the Muslims adopted Greco-Roman culture under the Umayyads. Persian culture influenced the eastern part of Muslim world in areas like art and architecture, but the Islamic world as a whole and its intellectual traditions and its institutions were derived from Rome, and only a retard would deny this.
Eventually the West eclipsed the other two, partially absorbing the Orthodox world after the 18th century. Before that there was absolutely no common European civilization, or at least there was nothing Europe shared that it did not share with Islam. The only thing Europeans share that they do not with Islam is Christianity, and if you use that as a definition of Europe you'd have to call Ethiopia European.
>>282761
So you're reason for saying it's European is that it's European?
>saying it's not european is like saying the uk wasn't european when it was an empire
Do you think the reason we're saying Russia was not European is because it ruled over Siberia?
>>282767
What a pile of horseshit. Not only is your understanding completely wrong but you're arrogant and pretentious about it.
>Aegean civilization was not the predecessor to Greco-Roman civilization, it died with the Bronze Age Collapse
wrong
>which later collapsed and split into three new civilizations; Western, Orthodox, and Islamic.
wrong
>don't fucking say Islam wasn't
It wasn't. Islam is mainly perso-arabic with strong greco-roman influence.
>These weren't just fucking 'aesthetic differences', holy fuck.
yes they were, more or less.
>Western civilization was born of the Migration Period, the monasteries of the British Isles, and the Frankish kingdoms, eventually giving rise to the Carolingian and 12th century Renaissances
they have their roots in greco-roman civilization, they were christianized and therefore romanized.
>Islam was born in Arabia, but Islamic civilization was born when the Muslims adopted Greco-Roman culture under the Umayyads. Persian culture influenced the eastern part of Muslim world in areas like art and architecture, but the Islamic world as a whole and its intellectual traditions and its institutions were derived from Rome, and only a retard would deny this.
wrong. it was influenced by both rome and persia, but it mostly adopted persian culture.
>Before that there was absolutely no common European civilization
wrong, it was known as christendom, and the concept of europe we have today was born in the middle ages, when perso-arabic civilization(islam) conquered the middle east and north africa and isolated christian(greco-roman) europe.
>>282772
>So you're reason for saying it's European is that it's European?
Are you fucking retarded?
>Do you think the reason we're saying Russia was not European is because it ruled over Siberia?
Ok then stop asking idiotic questions and tell me why.
>>278243
It would be better to put the phrase as Western.
Western civilization has proven itself to be one of the few that can adapt to almost any circumstance.
That and the Western desire to spread one's culture via conquest.
The rest of the world needs to get good at war desu senpai.
>>282788
What is the difference between Western and European? Except for the obvious geographical references.
>>282788
>Western civilization has proven itself to be one of the few that can adapt to almost any circumstance.
>That and the Western desire to spread one's culture via conquest.
Both of those are universal desu
>>282781
You dumb motherfucker, you're just making shit up. Of course I'm arrogant, you're taking a huge hairy shit all over the history of mankind. You know fucking nothing.
>>Aegean civilization was not the predecessor to Greco-Roman civilization, it died with the Bronze Age Collapse
>wrong
Yes it did you dumb fuck. The Archaic Greeks did not write in Linear B and they did not live in Cyclopean citadels. Why don't you actually make an argument instead of just saying "wrong", as if your word should just be taken as right without any evidence. And you call me fucking arrogant.
>>which later collapsed and split into three new civilizations; Western, Orthodox, and Islamic.
>wrong
Make a fucking argument.
>>don't fucking say Islam wasn't
>It wasn't. Islam is mainly perso-arabic with strong greco-roman influence.
You know fucking nothing about Islam. They didn't adopt Persian influence until the Abbasid Caliphate and even then it was limited to the east. What's more, even in the 'Persianate' parts of the Islamic world they used intellectual traditions and institutions derived from Rome, which are the basis of Islamic civilization. Calling Islam 'perso-arabic with strong greco-roman influence' is like calling the West 'Celto-Germanic with strong greco-roman influence'. It's fucking stupid, you retard.
>>These weren't just fucking 'aesthetic differences', holy fuck.
>yes they were, more or less.
You unironically believe that the completely different societies, intellectual traditions, religions sects, and institutions that comprised the West, Orthodoxy, and Islam were just 'aesthetic differences'? Are you capable of thought?
>>282781
>>Western civilization was born of the Migration Period, the monasteries of the British Isles, and the Frankish kingdoms, eventually giving rise to the Carolingian and 12th century Renaissances
>they have their roots in greco-roman civilization, they were christianized and therefore romanized.
How does this change what I'm saying? Are you capable of understanding my argument? I very clearly acknowledged that Western civilization had Greco-Roman roots, as do Islam and Orthodoxy. That doesn't change the fact that it grew in a different direction.
>>Islam was born in Arabia, but Islamic civilization was born when the Muslims adopted Greco-Roman culture under the Umayyads. Persian culture influenced the eastern part of Muslim world in areas like art and architecture, but the Islamic world as a whole and its intellectual traditions and its institutions were derived from Rome, and only a retard would deny this.
>wrong. it was influenced by both rome and persia, but it mostly adopted persian culture.
I addressed this above. Your infantile understanding of Islamic civilization is based on a common meme encountered on 4chan based mostly on the need to attribute all civilization to Indo-European speakers, but lacks any basis in reality. You know nothing about either Islamic or Persian civilizations.
>>282781
>>Before that there was absolutely no common European civilization
>wrong, it was known as christendom, and the concept of europe we have today was born in the middle ages, when perso-arabic civilization(islam) conquered the middle east and north africa and isolated christian(greco-roman) europe.
You seem to think that civilization is based on nothing other than religion. If Christendom defines Europe, then Ethiopia and Armenia are European, but of course that's retarded. Western (Catholic/Protestant) Christians and Orthodox Christians different in more than just their religion. They developed separately, with separate institutions and intellectual traditions. The Orthodox world did not undergo the 12th century Renaissance with the West, they did not have the same kind of political systems, they did not have the same academic institutions, they did not have the same art or architecture, they did not have the same music or literature, and so on. They were different civilizations with the same roots, along with Islam.
>>282793
You could very well argue that Western ideas influenced the Middle East given our extended presence there both during Rome's time and after. It's not inconceivable that the ideas made into their culture. I would call the Phonecians (on telephone so can't spell check right) Western at the very least. As was once North Africa and Anatolia thanks to the Greek city states & Carthage.
>>282794
Not necessarily. Some civilizations are incapable of modernization or adaptation. Just look at China for example. It took a truly alien idea (communism) to force the people to change their confucian ways.
Even then, communism has touched only the veneer. Western style thought has done more to alter China than anything else. It would be interesting to isolate a section of China from the outside world and see if it reverted back to the old ways. I wonder if Western influence too has only touched the outside.
People ITT need to take a chill pill
>>282786
I'm not the same guy you were first arguing with by the way.
>>So you're reason for saying it's European is that it's European?
>Are you fucking retarded?
You did not give a logical reason for calling Russia European. You just said 'it's European because it's in Europe and has European culture' without giving any reason as to why it should be said to be in 'Europe' or why its culture is 'European'.
>>Do you think the reason we're saying Russia was not European is because it ruled over Siberia?
>Ok then stop asking idiotic questions and tell me why.
Europe doesn't exist. There is the West and there is Orthodoxy. Russia is an Orthodox country which derives its civilization from Byzantium. It did not undergo the same processes that created Western civilization, such as the Carolingian Renaissance or the 12th century Renaissance. It didn't adopt Western civilization until the 18th century and in this sense it could be called Semi-Western, but that only makes it Western in the same sense as Japan or India.
>>282820
>>282824
>don't care about the commonly accepted view
I'm sorry for not being a fucking idiot and buying into whatever bullshit is popular to believe. I'm so sorry for being capable of independent reasoning.
You haven't put forward a single argument to back up any of your claims, while I have. You're giving up because you have no argument to make.
>>278243
Europeans.
![Mongol.Horde[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/mS2NMn3.jpg "Mongol.Horde[1].jpg")
>>278243
it was the first to think of it's future.
while empires were built and destroyed (sometimes in a single generation or built by a conquerer and destroyed after his death) pretty much all over the world, european empires and its civilizations were trying to build something that time couldn't conquer.
some failed some didn't but in the end there was a material and cultural legacy and not just a death toll like in pretty much every other civilization since the dawn of time.
>>282880
>Aztecs
>sacrificing thousands and scores of your own children to appease the wrath of Huitzilopochtli
>not thinking about the future
Man, /r/badhistory would have a field day in this thread
>>282834
>everyone else but me is retarded!
anon...
>>282892
they were thinking in a close future - doing stupid (or not) shit to appease the god's wrath at the present time or before something "bad" happened in a near future.
they weren't thinking about their survival and had no plans for their society in the long run and that was the reason of their downfall. (in the same way some cientist say that even if the dinossaurs weren't destroyed by an asteroid, climate changes/physical anomalies and diseases etc would have probably done it, the spanish helped but they weren't the main cause since the core was rotten from within and when that happens you're doomed and it's a matter of time until a card makes your house of cards fall)
>>282910
No, those who just spout whatever they think is right without actually making an argument are retarded. You can't use "but you're going against the commonly accepted view" as an argument and expect not to be called a retard.
You know I'm not the only one in this thread making this argument? (See >>279805)
this
>>278263
Europe is like an angel compared to the rest of the world.
>muh multi cultural
>muh hoes love black dicks
PrayForEUfags
Allah hu Ackbar
>>278243
being close to scandinavia.
tell me I'm wrong.
